ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on July 10, 2012, 06:42:26 PM
-
Having read the argument over on the extreme complexity thread I noticed a problem with the current blocking rules especially when they relate to magic and non- magic barriers. This Problem was illustrated when Richard talked about get through a ward by shooting bigger guns at it. Given how the game mechanics works shooting a Ground to Air Missile at that ward would be as effective as hitting it with a pencil as long as the attack rolls were the same. This seems a little odd because a ground to air missile should be harder to defend against than a pencil even if both are wielded by masters.
Also wards have a minor problem/ feature that in game they can deflect lower level attacks indefinitely and better wards could easily sideline armies.
-
Remember that point in the books that is mentioned as harry taking an extreme consequence? With the hand and the fire? His shield stopped the napalm but not its heat as I recall? I am pretty sure that is what would happen with a surface to air missile, the attack would stop short of the caster, but the explosion would still effect the whole zone that he was in. And the next depending on the type of missile were talking about.
-
The rules can lead to amusing conclusions when wards are involved. Consider what would happen if nuclear missile was launched, and there happened to be a ward somewhere in the blast radius. The attack roll would almost certainly be below the ward rating, so the blast would be reflected back against the silo that launched the missile, potentially thousands of miles away...
-
High Powered Explosives, Landmines and Missiles should be treated as a crafting roll based attack IMO, and can hit significant levels of extra time and assistance aspects. Consider a scientist with crafting three, taking four units of extra time (has a stunt to reduce time by two steps), who has Assistance, the high concept chemist and made a Scholarship roll for Good Plans. Its probably a 13 shift shot. A good ward will reflect it, but in all honesty? A good block can shunt stuff into the Nevernever. So a really good ward should be able to block nuke level attacks (although the spiritual component of a nuke might do something nasty to magic at GM discretion).
I do however agree that its a problem that wards can stop big and small attacks equally well. It makes no sense, and is contrary to the books for normal defenses. (The Nevernever shunting not so much.)
On the wards not losing power. I think that is sort a the RPG wards not really lining up with the book wards, I don't recall many wards that deflect energy like the standard ones. Harry set up something that was specifically supposed to deflect magic, but most wards seem to be the landmine kind. Maybe the GM could use something similar to the time chart for a sustained assault.
-
Also wards have a minor problem/ feature that in game they can deflect lower level attacks indefinitely and better wards could easily sideline armies.
I seem to recall a passage in one of the books (Dead Beat, IIRC) where the Merlin temporarily stalled an entire army -- one that included a horde of the Red Court, a few demons, and possibly some Outsiders -- with a single, impromptu Ward. Leading to the immortal line of: "I guess you don't get to be Merlin of the White Council by collecting bottle caps." So I'd say that part is pretty faithful to the books. :)
I agree that the missile thing is weird.
-
If it bugs you, I suggest giving Wards armour and stress and consequences instead of the block value that they have now.
PS: I think nukes have massive attack rolls and low weapon ratings, actually. They don't miss much, but it is possible to get hit without being vaporized.
-
If it bugs you, I suggest giving Wards armour and stress and consequences instead of the block value that they have now.
Yeah, an example of the FATE fractal1 at work. Build wards like a character.
PS: I think nukes have massive attack rolls and low weapon ratings, actually. They don't miss much, but it is possible to get hit without being vaporized.
Both of these are fine ways to look at it, I think. Just use the one that has the complexity you want.
Plan on using Nukes a lot and need quick and dirty rules for them? (I wonder what kind of game this would be, but...) Then give them a ridiculously high attack bonus, no weapon rating. Plan to have a single nuke be a major plot point as the PC wizard and his team try frantically to make a ward that can save themselves? Make the building of the ward a major event and spec it out as a character.
1 - The FATE Fractal on faterpg.com (http://www.faterpg.com/2011/stress-consequences-and-the-fractal/) A great read for FATE GMs.
-
The rules can lead to amusing conclusions when wards are involved. Consider what would happen if nuclear missile was launched, and there happened to be a ward somewhere in the blast radius. The attack roll would almost certainly be below the ward rating, so the blast would be reflected back against the silo that launched the missile, potentially thousands of miles away...
Its cases like these that have left me tempted to House Rule the use "Power Tier" rules from Strange Fate (Kerberos Club). However it's never actually come up in-game, so I've not had to see how well the system would mesh with DFRPG.
-
I personally think this is a good thing. It leaves wards vulnerable on a personal scale to someone actively trying to punch through them and willing to do the prep while making the useful on the strategic scale against attacks not actually anticipating wards.
Also, I 'like' the image of a glassed city with a sprinkling of undamaged oasis, each starting a spoke of merely burned and irradiated land (as opposed to glassed) in their shadow.
-
I personally think this is a good thing. It leaves wards vulnerable on a personal scale to someone actively trying to punch through them and willing to do the prep while making the useful on the strategic scale against attacks not actually anticipating wards.
Ok, silly hypothetical. Bob the wizard pisses off Dmitri the former KGB agent turned terrorist. Dmitri has already contracted to deliver a briefcase nuke to Chicago, but now he's going for two-for-the-price-of-one. He knows Bob is a wizard and will have defenses ... but he has a frickin' briefcase nuke!
So he hops on a plane, gets strip-searched at the airport, but the TSA doesn't find any spare tubes of toothpaste in his shoes or underwear, so they let him through with his briefcase "computer". He heads over to Bob's house and hides the briefcase behind some bushes next to Bob's apartment. Then he flies to India, and uses his cell phone's autodialer to figuratively press the big red button.
Ok, mechanics time. This would probably count as using demolitions (crafting stunt, I think) which Dmitri doesn't have (he knows how to autodial, though), so the attack roll is probably around 0. Bob has strength 4 ward (he's better at pissing people off than casting wards). Even so, the attack roll is lower that the ward strength, so the blast gets deflected to India, incinerating Dmitri.
I have to admit, this is not satisfactory to me. I'm thinking that the way to handle these sorts of things (anything from grenades on up to nukes) is to treat them as creating an "environmental hazard" (YS325) of some sort -- with suitably high hazard ratings (ie, equivalent of an attack roll).
-
Agree with Becq here. When in doubt, I always use the reasonableness standard to determine things like this.
To me, the weapon rating of a spell is one of the few weapon ratings a ward should ignore. I can see that this makes sense since even if the spell as a lot of power, if it's poorly controlled it might not have the cohesiveness required to overcome the ward. A flamethrower on the other hand is a flamethrower. The skill of the person wielding it has little effect on the end results. Ditto claymore mines, hand grenades... really any highly destructive weapons.
I also don't see a ward as being capable of deflecting a nuclear strike back to the place it was launched/triggered from. There is no mystical element to a nuclear strike, no magical connection between the attack and the attacker that the ward can send the energy back down. In my opinion, wards should only reflect physical attacks back at the attacker if the attacker is present. On the other hand, a ward would easily be able to send a thaumaturgical attack right back at the caster.. there is such a channel open between the attack and the attacker then.
-
I'd be more inclined to treat an attack roll from a nuke that misses normal humans that don't tag anything and get a 0 on their dice as a failure to trigger the nuke at all. Additionally, wards reflect attacks back to their sources. While with spells, bullets and punches that is the actual attacker, with explosives, that should be the thing that is exploding.
-
I'm sure that some wizards were hit during the mass bombing campaigns of WWII.
Looking at weapons is a bit narrow when talking about things that alter the environment to an extreme degree.
When I think nuke, I think of four attacks - since nuclear explosions have 4 steps. See here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,1006,00.html) for details about 1 megaton air blast (some things would have a small radius if not an air blast), but basically:
1) Flash and Fireball
- looking in the wrong direction and you see the flash
- heat radiation (houses within 14 kilometers are on fire)
- X-ray pulse (kills people up to 3 kilometers away)
- after the flash, the forming fireball release blinding bright flashes - blinding those 80 kilometers away
- the intensity of the light itself will burn those within 10 kilometers (and some people will leave shadows a wall)
Blast:
- moves slower than the flash and fireball (seperate attack)
- shifts earth and houses up to 14 kilometers away - without a deep foundation the heaviest warded building is going to be tossed around.
- change in air pressure kills everyone within 3 kilometers and 50% of those within 8 kilometers
- Hurricane strengh winds are hitting that warded building.
Firestorm
- moves slower than the blast (separate attack).
- burns up all available oxygen
- temperatures rise above lethal levels
- strong wind push the fires faster than humans can run
Delayed Radiation Fallout
- can you say cancer?
Harry almost lost his hand when his protection spell failed to deflect heat. Who wards against x-rays? If background heat is warded against, does that mean you have a perfectly insulated house and need to find a way to vent excess heat (the way spacesuits must)? Would a ward prevent the oxygen from being sucked out of a house? And can you ward against background radiation?
Maybe it's time to look at Ward vs Environment. Would a ward protect your house in the middle of forest fire? Would it divert a deluge that threatens to flood you out? Would it deflect a tornado?
I'd say the environment would eventually wear down any ward - but maybe that's just me.
Richard
-
I like the idea of other Fate-Variants that explosives (or all effects that affect the whole zone) don’t receive a Weapon Rating, but a bonus of equal value to the attack roll instead. So a nuke would have a attack bonus of 1000. Dodge that. It also bursts any ward ever created, which makes sense to me.
With that, explosives don’t deal as much damage as if they had a Weapon Rating (assuming they hit), but they are not as easy to dodge (with the effect of receiving no damage at all).
-
1000 seems like too much...the best figures I can find indicate that Little Boy only killed a fourth of Hiroshima.
Nukes are impressive because of the number of things they can hit at once, not because of the damage they do to each thing they hit. If you aren't too close to the bomb, they're survivable.
-
I didn’t necessarily meant literally 1000. Just a really big modifier that is more likely a plot device than anything else.
Also, explosives usually hit one to three or four zones. So the direct damage would be in these zones. So even a nuke with an attack roll bonus of 1000 would only destroy so much of a town with ten or so zones.
-
I'm of the opinion that stuff like nukes is best handled as plot devices. Ie, the GM decides by fiat how extensive the damage to the city will be based on the needs of the story, etc. But for those who feel the need to model it with more precision, I found the following (http://"http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/hiroshim/hiro_med.html#SUMMARY"), which might be useful:
The Nagasaki Prefectural report describes vividly the effects of the bomb on the city and its inhabitants:
"Within a radius of 1 kilometer from X, men and animals died almost instantaneously and outside a radius of 1 kilometer and within a radius of 2 kilometers from X, some men and animals died instantly from the great blast and heat but the great majority were seriously or superficially injured. Houses and other structures were completely destroyed while fires broke out everywhere. Trees were uprooted and withered by the heat.
"Outside a radius of 2 kilometers and within a radius of 4 kilometers from X, men and animals suffered various degrees of injury from window glass and other fragments scattered about by the blast and many were burned by the intense heat. Dwellings and other structures were half damaged by blast.
"Outside a radius of 4 kilometers and within a radius of 8 kilometers living creatures were injured by materials blown about by the blast; the majority were only superficially wounded. Houses were only half or partially damaged."
As a (fairly quick) attempt to translate this:
0-1 km : Sufficiently high attack bonus to ensure taken out results, even in hardened targets. Absurdly high numbers (hundreds? thousands?) would be reasonable here, and take-out would mean death for nearly all cases.
1-2 km : Attack bonus high enough to allow a taken out result for some, but let most by with significant consequences. Perhaps around +20 to +30 (or more) attack bonus would be appropriate, and take-out would result in death only some of the time (if a mechanic is desired, perhaps a Endurance roll with a difficulty based on exposure).
2-4 km : Attack bonus high enough to result in significant consequences. This sounds like +10 to +12 or so.
4-8 km : Attack bonus resulting in typically moderate consequences. Perhaps around +6 to +8.
Again, just a fairly quick attempt to throw down some numbers based on the report quoted, YMMV.
-
It works. Well done, Becq.
What have we done, fellows?
... Now we have beome death, the destroyers of worlds.
-
... Now we have beome death, the destroyers of worlds.
Oppenheimer, FTW!
-
I'm of the opinion that stuff like nukes is best handled as plot devices. Ie, the GM decides by fiat how extensive the damage to the city will be based on the needs of the story, etc. But for those who feel the need to model it with more precision, I found the following (http://"http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/hiroshim/hiro_med.html#SUMMARY"), which might be useful:
As a (fairly quick) attempt to translate this:
0-1 km : Sufficiently high attack bonus to ensure taken out results, even in hardened targets. Absurdly high numbers (hundreds? thousands?) would be reasonable here, and take-out would mean death for nearly all cases.
1-2 km : Attack bonus high enough to allow a taken out result for some, but let most by with significant consequences. Perhaps around +20 to +30 (or more) attack bonus would be appropriate, and take-out would result in death only some of the time (if a mechanic is desired, perhaps a Endurance roll with a difficulty based on exposure).
2-4 km : Attack bonus high enough to result in significant consequences. This sounds like +10 to +12 or so.
4-8 km : Attack bonus resulting in typically moderate consequences. Perhaps around +6 to +8.
Again, just a fairly quick attempt to throw down some numbers based on the report quoted, YMMV.
I'd keep the initial radius in the 60-70-shift range. That's plenty to drop even the beefiest of targets if they're exposed (anything without physical immunity is going down hard; Faery Queens and Archangels should be highly concerned if facing such an attack), punch through all but the most substantial of wards (that have been built like the mystical equivalent of a cold war command bunker) while still at least injuring most PC-grade characters with some risk that 'injury' rolls over into 'fatality'.
This seems more appropriate to me than an attack that incinerates the Merlin (a defensive specialist, who had several minutes warning of the attack) inside an Edinburgh-scale ward that is itself inside an Edinburgh-scale ward that is itself inside another Edinburgh-scale ward.
-
The problem with specifying a number is that as soon as you define the nuke attack bonus to be X, some wizard player will simply cast an X+10 shift ward with a duration of several lifetimes -- which is eminently feasible under the RAW thaumaturgy rules.
So my temptation for things like nukes is to invent a new (for DFRPG) unstoppable force vs. immoveable object mechanic which I will refer to here as the "Rifts Rule". Basically, I'd say that in the inner blast region, a nuke inflicts, say, a +60-70 attack inflicting plot device stress. This stress can only be resisted in any way by defenses specifically defined as being of plot-device caliber by the GM. NPCs listed in the Supernatural Heavyweight chart would be excellent candidates for having (varying levels of) plot-device defenses, and the Edinburgh ward -- having been built up and maintained by the collective efforts of the world's most powerful wizards over the generations -- is certainly a reasonable candidate, as well. The 1000-shift ward a paranoid player built during his backstory is not (in my opinion), nor is even the best ward the Merlin could put up in hours let alone minutes. Of course, that sort of powerful yet still sub-plot defense might well be a reasonable argument for a takeout result that is something less than instant death...
But that's just my take.
-
In other words, compensate for problems with the rules by completely ignoring the rules.
Not my favourite approach. I'd rather hack the Thaumaturgy system to make huge rituals non-trivial.
Because there's nothing wrong with a nuclear bunker Ward. It's cool, it makes sense, it's the sort of thing you'd expect from the Merlin.
The problem is not that an anti-nuke Ward works, it's that Harry Dresden could set one up without too much trouble.
PS: Just found this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26593.0.html). I think it's relevant.
-
Nukes are not special/magical. They are just another way to release a lot of energy in a (to human sensors) instant. If you want to bypass a particular defense you can assess and invoke in the same manner as was done to Harry's shield, cooking his hand. This is no different from the mechanical vs narrative hit case you get with other attacks and consequences. Imho , if obtaining the nuke (or other large bomb) doesn't leave you with enough tags to reliably hit mooks , you failed to achieve a proper detonation. Maybe only the first stage went off, spreading radioactive material, or maybe it gets found converting it into an area social attack.
-
In other words, compensate for problems with the rules by completely ignoring the rules.
Not my favourite approach.
If you'd like to interpret it that way, I suppose; though its creating a new mechanic, not ignoring existing ones. Its got precident on these forums -- for example, there are some who consider ACAEBG a problem, and deal with it by creating custom powers to "ignore" those rules. :)
I'd rather hack the Thaumaturgy system to make huge rituals non-trivial.
Ok, I'm with you on this. But I'm not going to suggest ways to deal with nukes assuming that everyone has bought into a custom Thaumaturgy ruleset -- especially since I don't recall there being even a tentative consensus reached during the discussions had on that topic so far.
Because there's nothing wrong with a nuclear bunker Ward. It's cool, it makes sense, it's the sort of thing you'd expect from the Merlin.
Sure thing. That sounds like GM plot device, to me, which fits under the concept I presented. Though my personal view is that even the Merlin is incapable of such a thing on the spur of the moment. If, on the other hand, he had spent the decades since the close of WWII pouring power into a painstakingly crafted, rune-inscribed crystal, designed to create a one-shot shield to protect against a nuclear fireball...
The problem is not that an anti-nuke Ward works, it's that Harry Dresden could set one up without too much trouble.
Or even a minor practicioner with a variation of Ritual that includes wards, yes.
But even beyond that, nukes are the very pinnacle of humananity's potential for destruction. If you can withstand a nuke, then there's basically nothing humanity can do you. As such, I think the setting works better if they are something to be feared by nearly everyone, supernatural or not. Wizards are powerful, but should not be able to directly compete with the destructive potential of a nuke by way of raw force. Even the Queens should fear them -- maybe they might survive a direct, but at what cost? At least, that's my opinion.
PS: Just found this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26593.0.html). I think it's relevant.
Relevant, yes. Correct ... well, opinions vary, obviously.
-
If you can withstand a nuke, then there's basically nothing humanity can do you.
Just because a nuke, that hasn't been competently prepared, placed and rigged to take down a ward, doesn't end up punching through a particular ward, it doesn't mean that there is nothing humanity can do to you. Mechanically, assessments, declarations and compels can help, make a small hand grenade punch right through a ward that would bounce the blast front and firestorm from a negligent nuke strike. Narative wise, your house stood up to the hit, and shadowed the first floor of the rest of the houses on the block, but the rest of the city is trashed and I sure hope you have independent air supplies, otherwise you are about to have !!FUN!! of the airborne inhalation variety.
Real world wise, the nuke may be one of the better options for mass physical destruction but it's surprisingly ineffective against a wide variety of hardened targets that we have other (much smaller) bombs specialized to take out. Nukes aren't even the best for wide spread killing, for that, various chemical and biological agents sprayed in an area can have much higher kill counts (and far few survivors, percentage wise), per kg of weapon than a nuke.
-
...various chemical and biological agents sprayed in an area can have much higher kill counts (and far few survivors, percentage wise), per kg of weapon than a nuke.
Well, considering some deadly chemical doses are measured in "parts per million" I don't think a per kg measurement will ever be accurate. Probably better to look at the effort in designing, engineering, building, and maintaining each type of weapon.
-----
I do have to ask one thing though - is someone really planning to use nukes or equivalent in game? Or have we chased an argument down a rabbit hole?
-
I found the following:
The Nagasaki Prefectural report
Fat Man was a 21 kiloton bomb. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield), most modern bombs are 300 - 500 kilotons range with the more powerful ones bunt 9 - 15 megatons.
How powerful is a nuke? Powerful enough to take out a Naagloshii.
Richard
-
Fat Man was a 21 kiloton bomb. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield), most modern bombs are 300 - 500 kilotons range with the more powerful ones bunt 9 - 15 megatons.
How powerful is a nuke? Powerful enough to take out a Naagloshii.
Richard
Powerful enough to a almost certainly kill a Naagolshii. Morgan wasn't certain that it did the job.
-
Then let's leave it at:
Powerful enough that it has a very good chance to destroy a semi-divine creature - similar to one that Harry didn't have a chance of taking on Harry's chosen ground.
Richard
-
A 50 point pyramid with a 7 point cap.
Evocation
Thaumaturgy
The Sight, Soulgaze
Refinement*5 at least, probably more (various specializations, spirit power and control topping the pyramid)
full Supernatural suite with a 1 or 2 point Catch that Harry wasn't able to obtain
True Shapeshifting
Modular Abilities with a pool of at least 8, probably more like 16 or 20
Did I miss anything important?
-
Game mechanically, the only thing missing from the "Morgan nuked a Naagolshii" bit is that Morgan nuked a Naagolshii. If it didn't have PI up (or if a nuke satisfies it's catch), and Morgan, by trickery and modern knowledge it lacked, blindsided it with a nuke (a holy pile of manauvers, assessments and declarations), all it really says is that the nuke had a relatively high weapon rating and enough circumstantial modifiers to make it a better weapon than Morgan's personal nova potential (not being magic being WAY up there on the list, against a Naagolshii)
-
Nukes are not special/magical. They are just another way to release a lot of energy in a (to human sensors) instant.
Well said.
I do have to ask one thing though - is someone really planning to use nukes or equivalent in game? Or have we chased an argument down a rabbit hole?
Oh, we've definitely chased an argument down a rabbit hole. That being said, I expect to use a nuke sooner or later. Seems inevitable, especially since Nicodemus stole a nuclear submarine.
If you'd like to interpret it that way, I suppose; though its creating a new mechanic, not ignoring existing ones. Its got precident on these forums -- for example, there are some who consider ACAEBG a problem, and deal with it by creating custom powers to "ignore" those rules. :)
Not equivalent. TINS is no more a change to the rules than Titanic Size is. Actually altering the core resolution mechanic of a game is much more of a change than adding a Power.
Though it's true that it could be a change rather than a bypass, if planned beforehand.
Ok, I'm with you on this. But I'm not going to suggest ways to deal with nukes assuming that everyone has bought into a custom Thaumaturgy ruleset -- especially since I don't recall there being even a tentative consensus reached during the discussions had on that topic so far.
Everyone agrees that it should be harder than it is, right?
Relevant, yes. Correct ... well, opinions vary, obviously.
Eh, I've never heard any reasonable criticisms.
But even beyond that, nukes are the very pinnacle of humananity's potential for destruction. If you can withstand a nuke, then there's basically nothing humanity can do you.
...
That's a joke, right?