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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: fantazero on August 19, 2011, 09:30:34 PM
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So do we count a Smith and Wesson 500 as a Weapon 2,3, or 4?
(http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/U6L9667.jpg)
they use it to hunt bears, it makes the 44 look like a sissy pistol
(http://www.bear-hunting.com/images/flashes/2006_ak_white_moose_and_bear.jpg)
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Weapon 3 it is still only a really big pistol not a battlefield artillery piece.
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Up to you, but the folks I play with rarely give out Weapon: 4 for anything less than a full 50-cal sniper rifle or the equivalent.
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Weapon:3.
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Weapon: 4, its pathetically easy to get high weapon ratings if you know your gunlore. Although there is still the issue or rate-of-fire, recoil, reload speed and magazine size for most of them, all of which should be used to Compel against you, or a Self-Compel.
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What is the kinetic profile of a typical round fired from such a pistol, and how does it compare to other benchmark guns in the DresdenVerse? "Used to hunt bears" sounds badass, but if you want peer review, lets see some numbers.
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What is the kinetic profile of a typical round fired from such a pistol, and how does it compare to other benchmark guns in the DresdenVerse? "Used to hunt bears" sounds badass, but if you want peer review, lets see some numbers.
Harry Carried a 44 Magnum. SO bigger than that. Kincaid used a 50 cal that he killed Denarians with so less than that.
In REAL life the 50bmg is 2000-2500 FPS the 500 magnum is 1500-1750
44 vs 500
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/44-500comp.jpg)
I'm happy with a 3 or 4
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What is the kinetic profile of a typical round fired from such a pistol, and how does it compare to other benchmark guns in the DresdenVerse? "Used to hunt bears" sounds badass, but if you want peer review, lets see some numbers.
A 9mm (Weapon:2) has around five to six hundred pounds of force behind it
A .44 (Desert Eagle, Weapon: 3) has around 1,100 to 1,500 pounds of force behind it
A .500 S&W (mentioned above) has around 2,200 to 3,000 pounds of force behind it.
Gotta be honest, seems around Weapon: 4 to me.
EDIT: Huh, I've got different numbers, what is your source Fantazero?
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Um... damn.
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Rather surprised at the amount of thought that people put into this.
I always just eyeball weapon ratings.
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Rather surprised at the amount of thought that people put into this.
I always just eyeball weapon ratings.
I agree, particularly since the weapon and combat system is rather abstract, with Consequences as actual damage.
A 9mm (Weapon:2) has around five to six hundred pounds of force behind it
A .44 (Desert Eagle, Weapon: 3) has around 1,100 to 1,500 pounds of force behind it
A .500 S&W (mentioned above) has around 2,200 to 3,000 pounds of force behind it.
Gotta be honest, seems around Weapon: 4 to me.
EDIT: Huh, I've got different numbers, what is your source Fantazero?
Took a quick look at some of munitions books, specifically Ammo & Ballistics 3rd ed. and 4th ed. both by Bob Forker, and here is the info and my conclusions:
The .500 Smith & Wesson Special Magnum loading which has the highest foot-pounds (a measure of kinetic energy) at the muzzle is the Hornady 300-grain FTX (9249), with 2,868 foot-pounds at the muzzle
http://www.hornady.com/store/500-SW-300-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
Now, a .308 Winchester, which is the same round as a 7.62mm NATO, also from Hornady, the 178-grain BTHP Superformance Match has at the muzzle 3,043 foot-pounds.
http://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-178-gr-BTHP-Superformance-Match/
Given that a battle rifle chambered in 7.62mm NATO, or a normal deer rifle chambered in .308 Winchester is per the Weapons chart considered Weapon:3, then an over-sized handgun (with examples given like a .50 AE Desert Eagle) should also be Weapon:3. Oddly enough, the chart already has that.
Therefore, I would really suggest people just stick with the chart. Unless or until the players start shooting, or getting shot at with significantly more potent weaponry like AGM-114 Hellfire II anti-tank guided missiles, or 120mm APFSDS tungsten KE penetrators from the cannon of a Leopard IIA6 or M1A2 Abrams main battle tank (MBT), then weapons with ratings between Weapon:1 and Weapon:3 are going to cover virtually everything a character could reasonably get their hands on. Weapon:4 could then be used for larger weapons, like if a character was able to get a mini-gun like the orange gorilla fired in Small Favor, or a 0.50 cal. Browning Machine Gun (BMG) or a 40mm grenade launcher, or just regular hand grenades.
On a side note, large calibre handguns are NOT usually used for hunting dangerous game like bears. What is usually used is a large calibre, high velocity rifle round like a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. A large calibre handgun usually serves as a 'self-defense' weapon, so that if a hunter gets treed by a bear, or gets charged when the rifle isn't ready, the hunter can shoot the bear in shoulder to stop the bear. It is possible to kill a bear with something like a .500 S&W Special Magnum, but given the serious range/accuracy limitations a handgun that large has, deliberately attempting to hunt a bear with it could make the hunter eligible for a Darwin award, depending on whether the hunter has children of not.
-Cheers
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It is my understanding that (the non-darwin-award version of) large game hunting with an oversized handgun involves the use of that gun primarily as a 'holdout' in case the animal survives a rifle shot, charges, or otherwise reaches an uncomfortable proximity to the hunter without having been killed.
There are, of course, individuals in the world just begging to earn a darwin award, who might forgo the use of a rifle in the pursuit of a greater challenge.
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no plenty of people hunt Bears, Deer ect with Handguns of large Caliber. I wouldnt say it's stupid, Dangerous, yes, stupid no.
It was designed to hunt large game, the barrel is that long on the full size models to shoot at longer ranges (notice you can attach a scope to it)
Weapons 3 sounds fine to me.
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I don't compare weapons to each other directly specifically because the system doesn't have enough room to do so (battle axe is more dangerous than longsword, but both are two handed weapons, so both are Weapon 3, etc).
So, for guns: Most pistols, regardless of type, are Weapon 2. Big ones, DEagle, Magnums, etc. are Weapon 3. Weapon 4 is reserved for explosives, anti-tank weapons, cannons, etc. So...is this a battlefield scale weapon? No? Then it's Weapon 3.
Even high powered sniper rifles are just Weapon 3. That extra damage comes from stacking maneuvers and declarations.
If you want it to do more, use Guns to make a declaration, place an aspect. Now your giant calibre pistol is plot relevant and not just a fancy gun.
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no plenty of people hunt Bears, Deer ect with Handguns of large Caliber. I wouldnt say it's stupid, Dangerous, yes, stupid no.
It was designed to hunt large game, the barrel is that long on the full size models to shoot at longer ranges (notice you can attach a scope to it)
Weapons 3 sounds fine to me.
There are indeed a range of 'hunting' handguns which are used to hunt deer, large mountain goats, etc. However, such animals don't typically present the potential threat to the hunter than a bear or other predatory animal does. I'm sure there are some hunters who do use a handgun to hunt bear, but I don't believe that is the particular type of game that most handgun hunters aim for. Pardon the pun...
-Cheers
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A 9mm (Weapon:2) has around five to six hundred pounds of force behind it
A .44 (Desert Eagle, Weapon: 3) has around 1,100 to 1,500 pounds of force behind it
A .500 S&W (mentioned above) has around 2,200 to 3,000 pounds of force behind it.
Gotta be honest, seems around Weapon: 4 to me.
EDIT: Huh, I've got different numbers, what is your source Fantazero?
I don't think it so much a case of number, per se. You see, at a certain point, it doesn't matter how much pounds of force are behind a shot, because those rounds will most likely exit your body quite fast. You see, this force is applied to a really small area, so it is somewhat negligible (physics-/mechanic-wise, so don't tell me getting shot isn't a breeze!).
Now, I know you shouldn't give too much thought on types of ammo, but AP ammo does little internal damage, normal slugs leave bigger holes, JHP in such a gun would quite often turn people into meat fountains. But still, relatively speaking, it is nowhere near the damage one can inflict with bigger and/or automatic rifles.
To put it in a different perspective: bows are just as deadly to humans as guns, with less force behind them (in most cases), it's just that you can fire guns more often in a shorter space of time.
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And Ted Nugent goes bear hunting with a bow and arrow...
I think the problem is looking at something and saying "Well if X is 2 then Y must be 3 and then it follows that Z is 4" when the scale is more geometric than that.
Let me copy and paste something:
Small pocket weapons, knives, saps, and “belly guns” Weapon:1
Swords, baseball bats, batons, most pistols Weapon:2
Two-handed weapons, oversized pistols (Desert Eagle and company), rifles and shotguns, most fully-automatic weapons - Weapon:3
“Battlefield” weaponry, explosives Weapon:4+
A baseball bat or baton can do more damage than a 'belly gun' or knife. A baseball bat does the same damage as a sword. Notice the lack of "Well if X (a baseball bat) is 2 then Y (a baton designed to strike with) must be 3 and Z (a sword) must be 4..." ?
I see a Smith and Wesson 500 being covered by "... and company" because it's not a battlefield weapon. Yes, I know that logic says it's a class higher than a Desert Eagle, but what logic has a baseball bat being as deadly as a sword?
As an aside, people who have enjoyed this discussion might want to check out a link that was posted in another part of this forum. http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullets.shtml (http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullets.shtml) is one I keep meaning to post on an inherent silver thread as it explains why you can't take that silver necklace or melt down grand dad's silver dollar to get a silver bullet.
Richard
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As an aside, people who have enjoyed this discussion might want to check out a link that was posted in another part of this forum. http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullets.shtml (http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullets.shtml) is one I keep meaning to post on an inherent silver thread as it explains why you can't take that silver necklace or melt down grand dad's silver dollar to get a silver bullet.
Interesting article! Thanks for the link. Also amusing in the lengths authors (or husbands of authors) will go to justify what they've written in the fiction! :)
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I thought that anyone who enjoyed comparing guns would enjoy the link.
And it definitely destroys the myth of melting the family silver or grandmother's silver necklace and making a bullet out of it.
Richard
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My group handles some weapon differentiations using aspects permanently attached to the weapon in question... for example, a shot to the head from a Barrett .50 cal isn't going to make you any more or less dead than a shot from the S&M 500 at point blank range... or really, any less dead than a tank round to the noggin... the difference between them is exactly how much head is left, and at that point- you're the one person in the world who doesn't care, as a character- it's just storytelling from there.
For purposes of determining overall weapon value, we count any such aspect attached as being equivalent to a +1 weapon rating (after all, it can be tagged once for a +2, but after that, is no more useful for enhancing damage than
I'd put a 50cal at weapon 4, but attach a couple aspects to it for <LR Scope> (useful where extreme accuracy or ranged penalties apply) <BFG> (massive damage, split target damage for killing the guy behind the guy you're shooting, or compel against the player who's trying to conceal it), and maybe some special loads.
I'd put the 500 at weapon 4, but attach <Concealable> (I assume, the picture doesn't REALLY make it's size clear, but it looks small enough to at least attempt concealment), and again, maybe some special loads.
A Main Tank Gun, I'd put at Weapon 5 or 6, with the note that it automatically affects multiple targets at that value and ignores all but the most serious armor or cover.
I also let my players attach single use aspects to weapons as appropriate (my melee guy can put a <Honed Edge> on his blade that, IRL, would go away the first time it's used, and my gun-monkey can really hyper-tune his gun's sights or cold fire the weapon like snipers do- first time it's fired though, the vibrations alone screw up such tuning and the bullet ruins the cold-firing)... but that really just amounts to a maneuver they do on the individual weapons that I allow to last until used because it's realistic.
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Damn, that gun needs a character Sheet!
High Concept: Big Handgun
Trouble: Kicks like a Mofo
Other Aspects:
Kills Freakin' Bears
Makes a .44 look Wimpy (A good aspect for Social Combat)
Heavy Ammo
Is that the Samaritan in your pocket or are you happy to see me? (Note: the Samaritan is Hellboy's gun)
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It is a weapon: 4.
In my games, I call a 12 gauge shotgun a weapon:4 in the same zone and a weapon:2 farther than that.
In my game, I'd call the handcannon a weapon: 4 with a -1 to attack due to the recoil unless someone takes a stunt for it.
OP - for future reference, this forum is not the best place to discuss weapons. There is not a whole lot of actual real-world weapon knowledge amongst a lot of people who respond to such things. That's not a dig - just a fact from my perspective.
Fun fact: I met a dude in West Virginia - gang banger type who carried a S&W 500. The cops I knew were less afraid of him than anyone else because they were almost sure he would never be able to hit anything with it.
Those pistols require a LOT of practice to be good with. I am not sure that I could shoot one accurately right now.
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I am not sure that I could shoot one accurately right now.
In Soviet Russia, Bear Shoots You!
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In Soviet Russia, Bear Shoots You!
Indeed. :P
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I'd definitely go with Weapon: 3 with the Aspects: "Used to hunt Bears," and "Kicks like a mother."
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I decided to post a little reply instead of a lengthy one I had composed. i also want it known I know a fair amount about real life weaponry, but I am a far cry from an expert as much as my ego would love to argue that.
Semi-Short version:
How accurate do you want to be and how dangerous do you want mortals to be?
With proper ammunition a .22 can wreak havok on a man sized body...easily more than a weapon:2...but most people see .22 and giggle and think it to be a wussy gun.
Deer slugs will punch through virtually any armor mankind wears...if it doesn't you're lucky and have some broken bones...start thanking your deity/s you lived. Using shot as opposed to slugs should make it easier to hit targets also... usually not taken into effect in these games.
Zweihander swords should be more than weapon:3 in my opinion, but at the end of hte day it comes down to those two questions...how accurate/specific do you want to get and how nasty do you want non supernatural forms of damage to be/get.
I can guarantee weapon damage will vary from gaming group to gaming group - regardless of facts in real life.
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For fun I think stating black powder guns and obscure weapons could be a lot of fun...maybe another thread?
Pepperboxes?
LeMat percussion pistols?
strange weapons I can't spell accurately that were used by the ancient native south americans or many asian cultures?
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I don't compare weapons to each other directly specifically because the system doesn't have enough room to do so (battle axe is more dangerous than longsword, but both are two handed weapons, so both are Weapon 3, etc).
So, for guns: Most pistols, regardless of type, are Weapon 2. Big ones, DEagle, Magnums, etc. are Weapon 3. Weapon 4 is reserved for explosives, anti-tank weapons, cannons, etc. So...is this a battlefield scale weapon? No? Then it's Weapon 3.
Even high powered sniper rifles are just Weapon 3. That extra damage comes from stacking maneuvers and declarations.
If you want it to do more, use Guns to make a declaration, place an aspect. Now your giant calibre pistol is plot relevant and not just a fancy gun.
Bingo. Yes this is a large gun, but it is still an oversized handgun and therefore weapon three.
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You know, I think we use different definitions of "battlefield weapon". I definitely include high-powered sniper rifles in that category. Some assault rifles might also qualify.
An oversized handgun wouldn't, though.
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(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060605112733/uncyclopedia/images/b/be/God_kills_catgirl.gif)
Personally I would not increase its rating past that of a heavy handgun. Simply because you're giving it some significant advantages, but still leave it concealable in an inside pocket.
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strange weapons I can't spell accurately
This is so going to be an aspect for my not so bright ninja character
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You know, I think we use different definitions of "battlefield weapon". I definitely include high-powered sniper rifles in that category. Some assault rifles might also qualify.
An oversized handgun wouldn't, though.
When you mention "high-powered" sniper rifles, are you talking about 0.50 cal. Barret M-82 or Barret M-95 anti-material rifles? If so, those are absolutely in the range of battlefield weaponry. While they are great for extreme long-ranged sniper of people, the round fired is large enough to damage/destroy equipment and light vehicles.
On the other hand, if you're talking about sniper rifles like the M-21 which fires a 7.62mm NATO... That I would still lump that in with other battle and assault rifles at Weapon:3.
-Cheers
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This is so going to be an aspect for my not so bright ninja character
glad to help! ;D
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I have no idea what any of the guns you mentioned are, Todjaeger. I'm not a gun person.
I just eyeball this stuff. If it seems like really serious military hardware, I call it weapon 4. If it seems civilian-appropriate, I call it weapon 3.
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I have no idea what any of the guns you mentioned are, Todjaeger. I'm not a gun person.
I just eyeball this stuff. If it seems like really serious military hardware, I call it weapon 4. If it seems civilian-appropriate, I call it weapon 3.
The Barrets listed (M-82 and M-95) are both very large, very heavy sniper rifles, the kind known as anti-material rifles. If you've ever seen the movie "Navy Seals", the character called God used one, or something like it.
The other one I mentioned, the M-21, is basically a specialized version of an M-14 which was the commonly issued rifle the US military used after the Korean War and partway into the Vietnam War. Civilian versions of the M-14 are available, with the major difference being that they aren't capable of fully automatic fire. What made the M-21 special is that they were re-worked to make them extraordinarily accurate.
As should be obvious by now, I know a little bit about guns and military equipment. That is sort of an outgrowth from my interest in history, military history, and militaria.
The general way I deal with firearms is as follows:
'hold-out' or Derringer-style pistols, or pocket pistols in small calibres (0.22 cal. or 0.25 ACP, 0.32 ACP, etc) count as Weapon: 1
Most service revolvers and pistols are Weapon: 2, as are small calibre rifles (Ruger 10/22, etc)
Most rifles and shotguns, as well as over-sized/big game-calibre handguns (0.454 Casul, Desert Eagle chambered in 0.50 AE, etc) are Weapon: 3
I reserve Weapon: 4 for generally military-grade weapons and explosives which are designed for use vs. vehicles, people & vehicles, structures, or to conduct attacks against entire zones.
Therefore large anti-material rifles like those already mentioned are Weapon: 4
A hand grenade
40 mm grenade/grenade launcher
M2 'Ma Deuce' 0.50-cal. Browning Machine Gun
Flamethrowers
M18 'Claymore' mine
and so on...
-Cheers