Being her father already puts him in a position of power over her. Raising her also puts him in a position of power over her. The gifts (Holiday presents, regular goods, life necessities) are a part of raisin her.

This position of power is not a debt per se. Fairies operate under the old way. A man is a lord of his own castle, his wife is his servant, and his children are his slaves. The specifics vary, but the idea that children are naturally subservient to their parents is pretty consistent. It's a status much like patron-client or lord-vassal. The power he has over her would be similar to what a Mab has over Lea, (or Harry for that matter) only significantly scaled down. He would not own her. She would not have explicit obligations to him. But she would have implicit subservience (unless she disowns him, or he acknowledges her independence).

That said, we are talking about a Fae here. He's had a lot of opportunities to make bargains with her, even if she didn't understand what they were. For example, instead of giving her an allowance, he could lend her money. He could give her candies, toys, and what have you saying things like, "trade you," and if she asks what he gets back he could say vague things like "I'll decide later." It would seem more playful than anything else to a child, after all. And if on any instance she said something like, "I'd do anything for..." or "I'd trade my life for..." he could simply give her whatever it is, and say, "deal."

Thinking over it, I think your main problem would be the length of time a particular burger joint has been there - relatively unchanged. Of about a dozen places in my hometown, none of them are both a.) in the same location or b.) modeled the same as they were as when I was a teenager. That's a space of under ten years. I'm guessing that it would take a bit of time for a solid enough link to be mapped to be developed and it would have to be to a solid enough place. Burger joints are always in flux, even McDonald's, the king of the chains.

Now, thinking about the places where links have been developed to? The Pyramids? They've been around a while. A strip club? I don't know about your experiences, but the strip joints around where I'm at have been around a LONG time and it's probably not even all of those that form a solid, mappable link.

I think I see a good point here, but in theory a link can be created to the nevernever from anywhere. Where it leads depends on the ideas behind the place. The fact that mortal facilities, and on top of that cookie-cutter facilities are constantly moving around and remodeling, plus that many of them are fairly young compared to what might have been there before. That's a good reason why they wouldn't all lead to the same place. How long does it take to change the nevernever parallel from one place to another if it's been untamed marshland for the past thousand years?

So I'm hearing a few strong nos. Several yeses. And countless buts.

I had actually thought about indicating geographic and cultural limitations in my first post. But I figured I wouldn't need to elaborate too much, since it's the basic idea that I'm talking about.

I was actually thinking Fast-food joints would be connected to some grim place associated with the ideas of stressful servitude and leisurely gluttony, not a pleasant place unless you're on the right side of the line. (get it, line? like the line to the cashier?). But the exact cookie-cutter establishments aren't important. I chose Burgerking because it was the first place that popped to mind, and I remembered a line or two from the books.

I agree that, "if they worked that way, someone would have taken advantage of it before" but who's to say they haven't? But maybe there's a special requirement. Like a metaphysical anchor Just because we don't know of someone who's done it, doesn't mean they haven't. It might mean that a lot of people have failed. But it's not like someone who succeeded would share their secrets.

So are there rules that would hinder this, or just a lack of rules to make it reliable?[/color]

I asked if *this*
was a good way to deal with it.  No-one has said one way or another, but I think you're agreeing with how I would deal with it.

As far as pulling rays of light out of space goes, I want to do this underground if I wanted.  I saw it more like conjuring sunlight, or having god open a portal to Heaven and allow heavenly sunlight radiate out of the ceiling *angelic choir* AHHHHHHH!  *angelic choir*

It works, I think. Well, except the "having god X" bit, that's more of a faith magic. Unless you're getting your soulfire directly from Him instead of an angel, in which case that's a GM call.

5 shifts can breach a barrier between worlds and open Gateways for you to travel. Harry does the Chicago-Edinburg trip in half an hour (2 miles) of walking when the real distance is 4000 miles. The Gatekeeper has been to the moon physically (though not on-screen). Summoning spells can bring in beings from beyond the borders of the Universe and a 32-shift botched one has done so on-screen. So in thaumaturgy distance matters not.

Yes, portals make things very convenient. If you're using them then I can't think of any problems with range.

Not really. Sunlight produces natural light-beams like searchlights do. A 10 Kw searchlight can illuminate stuff 20 kilometers away, easy. Now consider that the sunlight falling on a small park (say, 80 yards across) would be 100.000 Kw.   Read up on light beams and sunlight beam divergence if you are not convinced.

I'll pass on the extra research. I'm not in a physics research phase at the moment. I still think that the same reason objects appear smaller from a distance would cause the light to appear smaller by the time it reaches the park, but if you're convinced that there's a reason it wouldn't I won't argue.

Common misconception not supported by facts. "Slowing" happens when an object's inertial mass (resistance to acceleration, effectively) increases and thus the object accelerates more slowly. The object changes more slowly  but from its point of view the rest of the world seems faster. "Speeding Up" happens when an object's inertial mass decreases. The object accelerates (and thus moves and changes) faster and the rest of the world seems slower by comparison.

Very nice scientific jargen, it's pretty, and it happies me. Unfortunately we're not talking strictly science here. I can say that time "slows" when I am slowed, because, relative to my surroundings, time has slowed for me. I can also say that time slows when I am accelerated, because relative to me, my surroundings have slowed. In fact, when I am slowed, it may actually be the case that time, for the rest of the universe, has sped up. Or in the latter instance, I may be right and the universe's time has slowed. Okham might say it's more likely that it's just me that's slowed, but probability and reality aren't always the same.I can again say that time has sped up when I am sped up, or when my surroundings have sped up using the same logic.

Now, there may be scientific imperatives on how to use those terms, but scientific definitions do not inherently overrule other definitions. The tradition of language predates the tradition of science, and it is by the tradition of language, not the tradition of science, in which words get their meanings. No matter how inconvenient it is for us.

The objects' inertial mass would be decreased. Since E=1/2mV², and the "m" becomes smaller, the objects are suddenly moving a lot faster (which is what we wanted). This includes little things like their own motions and the Earth's rotation. Sadly, it also includes stuff like the Hubble Flow. The Milky Way is moving at 600 Km/second. What happens if the flow of time is doubled for those in your zone and are suddenly moving at 1200 Km/second, which is 600 Km/second more than the Earth? Whoops!

I get what you're saying.

A force moves Gideon at 600 km/s.
Gideon starts experiencing time at twice normal.
So for every second relative to the earth, Gideon is pushed 1200km.
600 km/s x 2s_g/1s_n
Except that it is the Earth which applies this force to Gideon.
Which means that Gideon is experience a force that would push him at 600 km/s_n and since 2s_g = 1s_n, then the speed the force would push him at is 600km/2s_g or 300km/s_g
You're smart enough to know what I'm saying.

Obviously that's simplified since I expressed forces in terms of km/s, a measure of speed, instead of the proper nm/s², but again, I'm not in a physics research phase right now. Even if you fill in the missing factors the math is consistent.

Of course there are a lot of other problems with dealing with a zone of enhanced time. Good thing we're dealing with magic and miracles instead of natural phenomena eh? Let God work out the messy details when he's performing miracles.

That's enough of a tangent for me Belial. You're fun but this isn't a thread about space-time. If you have a further rebuttal on this feel free to PM me.

There was this guy named Gideon back in the days of old Israel, and wanted light to pursue his enemies. The day was ending and it seemed like his enemies would manage to give him the slip when he prayed and God made the sun stand still in the sky for several hours.

Now, obviously God did not actually make the sun stand still. He could have done so by moving the sun or stopping the Earth's rotation but that would kill just about anyone on the planet and that, I am told, is a bad thing. God probably just bent the rays of the sun as if using a really big prism or mirror and thus threw sunlight down to Gideon's area, making it seem that the sun stood still. (much like the Earth's atmosphere lengthens the duration of the day, only moreso)



Since magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky, can it bend/reflect some sunlight so that a couple of zones in the dark hemisphere get it for a few moments? In theory, a manmade space station with a big mirror can do it - what kind of spell power would one need to do the same?

Here's my take on this...

Sure, magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky. It can also be used to stop the earths rotation, move the sun, or blow up the moon. It requires a combination of two things to accomplish such larger-than-life feats though. Calculation, and Power.

McCoy did indeed pull a satellite out of the sky, but what you have to ask is how. The direct method would be to grab it with an arm of magic energy and slam it where you want it to go. This would require minimal calculation, and a LOT of Power. On the flip side, if you know the forces already acting on the satellite, you should be able to calculate where to strike it with a minimal force push to throw it out of orbit and onto your enemy's head. This would require a LOT of calculation and minimal power. I use the term minimal on a relative scale in both instances.

Another option would be to open a portal that takes the satellite from where it is, and puts it where you want it to be (changing the direction of its velocity would help) I have no idea what sort of calculation or power this would require.

Redirecting sunlight would be a similar issue. Space is really big. Really really big. I don't think I can fit enough 'really's in to convey the range of this sort of spell. To reflect light correctly, you would need to conjure a mirror-like object in space. You would need a fair bit of both power and calculation. (It'd be easier to shoot down a satellite). You would need to sustain these constructs at a rediculous distance as well. Alternatively, you could generate a mini black-hole to bend the light to your will ... but please don't, I like not having black-holes eat the planet.

There's also another issue here. As far as mirrors are concerned, there's already a giant mirror reflecting the sun's light to the earth at night. We call it Moon. Somehow reflected sunlight doesn't have the same effect as direct or preserved sunlight. It could be because it lacks the full color spectrum or because the moon neutralizes the holyness or mystical properties of the sunlight, either way, you'd have to know what you're doing and make a mirror construct that bypassed this weakness.

In other words, unless you have special arrangements, it would be easier to incinerate the Vamps than to bring the light from the sun. And I think it'd be more likely for God to slow the flow or time in Gideon's area. [/color]

I might not fully understand the system, but this all seems a bit too complicated (and interesting). Correct me if I make any mistakes here.

First off, I haven't seen much talk about sunlight at all. I have seen lots of talk about Holy Light, as Sinker phrased it, which might be just as good, but not sunlight.

Why does sunlight hurt vampires? Is it inherently holy (religious angle)? Does it have something to do with the myriad of frequencies (scientific angle)? Or is it simply because it is light from the sun, daylight, an antithesis to creatures of the night (mystical angle)?

If it's because it's holy, then I guess Holy Light and Sunlight are the same thing. If it has to do with frequencies then I guess that soulfire could give a normal photomantic spell the correct structure. If it's because its light from the sun, then while soulfire can still give you vampire-bane light, it won't actually be sunlight.

I like the third angle. It fits best with the Sunburst in a Handkerchief, the only example of a sunlight spell I've seen. But the other angles don't really clash with the Hanky either. [/color]

If you want to cast an evocation speed thaumaturgy in battle just to kill vampires, go right ahead. It's reliable, but only useful against vampires and the like. It can easily be Holy Light, or even Sunlight depending on which angle you prefer, so it will hurt vampires enough either way. But that requires a lot more specialization (unless I'm mistaken).

The other route is to make a beefed up version of Sunburst in a Handkerchief. I like the idea of Daylight in a Bottle, but that's just me. This means you're casting a thaumaturgic spell at thaumaturgic speed. Though you're releasing it in about as much time as it takes to cast a simple evocation. This has the downsides of being an enchanted item, making it less reliable than creating the light, but it has the upsides of not requiring quite so much specialization. I think someone could do this without Soulfire, though they'll need an ounce or two of true happiness to add to the mix.

Either way you have the effect which everyone has been talking about. The best effect I think would be to add "Holy Light" or "Daylight" to the aspects of the environment. You're not actually attacking the vampires, you're just showing them the light. After that, it's in the GM's hands.

The GM should then deal damage to each vampire on the GM's prerogative. This damage is an environmental issue, it can be viewed as the Environment attacking the Vampire. I think the venomous rules give a good model but removal from the light should be an adequate antidote.

When the Vampire takes damage, it can choose to take a consequence of fleeing, screaming like a little girl, getting extra toasty, or what have you in response to this damage. That's plenty of flavor. Whether it runs to hide under a car depends on the vampire's personality, and is again an issue of the GM, though I wouldn't have many week vampires standing in the sunlight for long.

The issue of duration can be handled, in the first form, the same way extending a shield evocation is. In the second form it can be handled in the crafting of the item. Meaning that while it requires some active input to keep the evoc-thaumaturgy going, the craft thaumaturgy runs itself for a preset duration. Another example of how the evoc thaumaturgy is more reliable (you have more control over it) and the craft thaumaturgy is more convenient.

At least, that makes sense to me. I'm very new to this system, so its possible I'm missing some very important details. If my ideas are any good, I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the dirty details (numbers are messy).[/color]

So then...

Mythic Toughness and Recovery. -12
Physical Immunity. -8.
Total cost. -20.

The Catch. Non-Obsidian. +6 (if properly disseminated) (MT and MR)
Stacked Catch. Obsidian. +0. (PI)

Net cost. -14. Still powerful, but not ridiculously cheap.

Alternatively.

The Catch. Non-Obsidian. +6.
Stacked Catch. Non-blades. +6.

Net cost. -8. Vulnerable to obsidian blades. Resistant to non-obsidian blades. Immune to non-bladed obsidian (like anyone would use that as a weapon) and all other sources.  Powerful and cost-efficient.

Do these work?

When I was reading through the books, I couldn't help but notice how easy it is to break toughness. I tried searching these forums and saw similar ideas but it didn't quite answer my question.

As far as I understand the RAW, this works. Am I wrong?

Jack is a wizard or other magic scholar, we'll leave his stats alone for now. Jack wants to be more than human, without being inhuman. His research allowed him to find ways to enhance himself, in game terms these amount to toughness-type powers. He compiles a collection of his research, exposing The Catch of a lot of creatures (many of which were already exposed) and spreading the work through the White Council and the Paranet (why not? They're convenient). In this work he lists his findings on human-modification, ideal ways craft it and what he would if he could succeed the process.

High Concept, Clever Superhero.

Jack succeeds his research. He succeeds it very well, achieving Mythic Recovery, Toughness, and Physical Immunity.
The Catch to the Mythics is Obsidian. Common and public knowledge +4 each.
The Catch to the Immunity is non-Obsidian. Specific, Common, and Public Knowledge +6.
Total cost. -20. Total refund. +14. Net cost. -6.
Alternatively.
The Catch to the Mythics is non-Obsidian. Specific, Common and public knowledge +6 each.
The Catch to the Immunity is Obsidian. Common, and Public Knowledge +4.
The Stacked-Catch to the Immunity is a sharpened-edge. Common, and public Knowledge. +4.
Total cost -20. Total refund +20. Net cost -1 (minimum outlined in The Catch).

In the first instance, Jack sacrifices a reasonable amount of free will, but less than half of what he should. If he's hit by Obsidian, nothing happens, if he's hit by anything else, he's minimally effected.
In the second instance, Jack sacrifices virtually no free will. If he's hit by Obsidian, he's minimally effected. If he's hit by anything else, nothing happens. Either way my spidey sense is tingling about this.

If I come up with anything else that I'm worried about, I'll post it here. But for now, am I wrong about this? Does this seem broken to anyone else?