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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on February 20, 2020, 07:24:07 AM
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Well this is a really out there WAG, so bear with.
I think there is a possibility that Harry is either one or both of the following:
1.The Original Merlin, the one who founded the White Council.
2. THE Anti-Christ, as in the bringer of the apocalypse, but not necessarily the "son" of the Devil.
Allow me to explain. Jim mentions in an old WOJ about the origins of his Vampire research a man called Montague Summers. Montague Summers was a somewhat mad (or at least very weird) writer, who wrote about Vampires, Werewolves and Witches etc in 1928 from an academic point of view. Not the myth, per se, but what he seemed to believe were real phenomena. Jim seems to be quite the fan; indeed much of the Dresden Files contains similar philosophy and exposition on the creatures and spirits that are showcased.
For instance, Summers describes a Vampire in it's most basic form as a living dead body that drains the life and destroys a victim. This is very in-keeping with the Black Court. The Stoker-traits were a relatively new thing, and the various Hollywood movies that helped create the image of the modern set of vampires. He has also said that he based the White Court on a mix of the old incubus/succubus mythology and the sort of twilight-esque "hearthrob yet wildly misunderstood" vampire type that emerged recently. Interestingly, Iago (Fred) who used to play AmberMUSH with Jim said that the White Court were very similar to a type of chaotic-house characters that he and Jim created for campaigns. Finally, the Red Court and Jade Court seemed to be rather similar to the cultural lore of their locations in the books (Mexico and surrounds, and China respectively). But I digress.
He also has similar rules to Summers' in the early books - only beings of the flesh can affect the material world, ghosts are spirits and cannot generally affect the material world (without breaking things basically, including themselves) and Angels and Demons seem to have a bit of both, although particularly he mentions the idea that Demons can generate or possess a body, but it is not their "true" body. Their essence.
Anyway, Summers' mentions the idea that a Vampire occasionally was thought of as the offspring of the Witch and the Devil. He also references the thought that the Antichrist will be born through the carnal interactions between a human and a demon.
Merlin was oft thought to be the child of a witch and a Incubus. He also was occasionally thought to be the Antichrist.
Finally, I quote this "the children thus begotten by Incubi are tall, very hardy and bloodily bold, arrogant beyond words, and desperately wicked".
If that doesn't sound like Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, I'll eat my shoe. The "desperately wicked" of course, is debatable and depends on your POV and beliefs. But the rest is him to a T.
But how do we solve the fact that the Original Merlin was running around at the very least 1500 odd year before the events of the series, and that Harry clearly isn't him (currently)? How also do we solve the fact that whilst Harry's mother was indeed a witch, his father was (as far as we know) a vanilla mortal?
Well Time-Travel magic would solve the first problem, easily enough. If Lord Raith was Harry's father though, wouldn't he have been like Thomas? Surely come 18 wouldn't he have become a WCV or at least had the pull of it?
My guess is that it could be one or two things. Perhaps Harry's "real" father wasn't Lord Raith, but an Outsider or even the Devil. And Malcolm was to Harry what Joseph was to Jesus, the Christ. We know Harry's birth on Halloween in-part had something to do with being a Starborn (and probably, a Destroyer). We know that Halloween is the time when the walls between the spirit world and mortal world are thinnest, and all immortals are mortal whilst they are upon the mortal Earth. Perhaps it is more than the conjunctions, perhaps there is something else.
Thoughts?
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On the thought that Lord Raith could have been Harry's father:
Harry's first time was with Elaine. I believe, but am not certain, it was also the first time he did a soulgaze. If they were truly in love, it would have killed the Hunger and Harry would not be like Thomas. I really think Harry and Elaine cared deeply for one another. Was it true love? You'd have to ask Jim.
Also, the timing is vague enough that it could be the case without time spent in the Nevernever shenanigans.
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Would certainly be quite the coup if Malcolm wasn't Harry's biological father.
And great explanation, definitely plausible. I suspect it was true love, although who can really provide a definition of that? It's deeply personal to everyone. Best I have is - when you know, you know.
Timing is vague enough...I am not sure what you mean?
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~26-27 BSF: Thomas is given a pentacle necklace on his fifth birthday. His mother escapes Lord Raith.
26 BSF: Maggie LeFay meets Malcolm Dresden.
26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.
26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. Harry’s mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth. She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith.
It "is common for births to occur from 37 to 42 weeks." (Wikipedia). Harry was almost certainly born on the 44th week of the year. (I don't know if October 31st is ever not on the 44th week, but it was in every year of the 70's). Maggie may have escaped Lord Raith that year. She did meet Malcolm that year. Margaret could have been pregnant when she escaped Lord Raith and met Malcolm.
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I don't like Raith as Poppa, but something along those lines would get into that whole Star Wars vibe that Jim has a fetish about. Like the reveal where Vader tells Luke, I am your father.
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BA - I get you now. Yeah, very very possible from that POV.
Morris - Totally agree, it would be very Jim.
Something that we haven't explored enough in this theory is why Thomas ISN'T a Destroyer/Starborn, especially if he has the same parentage.
The easy explanation is that Harry was born on Halloween and Thomas wasn't.
But perhaps it is also due to the fact that Harry killed his phage before it had a chance to emerge, due to his relations with Elaine.
But none of that explains why Thomas has very little magical ability and Harry does, apart from a writing reason. My take is Jim when creating Thomas didn't need another Wizard, and his vampire abilities were enough for the story, but he added a little bit of magic later when he needed it in the Back Up short story.
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Thomas has too much. He's pretty and buff. Has a girlfriend who doesn't mind sharing. He's wealthy and he could live for thousands of years. Why in the hell would he get magic. There is a level of unfairness in that thought that boggles the mind. :o
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Quite agree! Yet I would like a nice convenient plot explanation. But I am but one small fan.
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Harry as a WCV makes no sense from the Justin DuMorne angle. He pretty much left Harry and Elaine to their own devices regarding sexuality, when he should know the most likely result of that would be a dead Elaine and WCV Harry. Who would probably be extra frustrated and likely to run off rather than face the consequences of that, I don't think Justin could twist that into himself controlling Harry even more.
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... Something that we haven't explored enough in this theory is why Thomas ISN'T a Destroyer/Starborn, especially if he has the same parentage ...
Because parentage is irrelevant? Being "starborn" is like a wierd mix of astrology & feng shui (as best I can tell).
... But none of that explains why Thomas has very little magical ability and Harry does, apart from a writing reason. My take is Jim when creating Thomas didn't need another Wizard, and his vampire abilities were enough for the story, but he added a little bit of magic later when he needed it in the Back Up short story.
WoJ states that Whampires can only have modest magical talents. Maybe that's retrofitting things after letting Thomas have a tracking-spell? That's unclear to me. Also unclear is whether a Whamp could be up to even weak White-Council standards, or if they don't quite get there... I don't recall if WoJ is explicit on this point.
Bianca had some magic; Arianna had more. Neither was as strong as Harry, but then again: very few White Council wizards are as strong as Harry! I suspect either one could have been a WC wizard, if they hadn't been Ramps.
Mavra absolutely has magic, and I suspect more than either Bianca or Arianna.
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Because parentage is irrelevant? Being "starborn" is like a wierd mix of astrology & feng shui (as best I can tell).
Might be irrelevant, might not be. We really have zero evidence either way, hence why I am exploring theories. Quite possibly you are right about what a starborn is, and perhaps that is the same as a Destroyer, perhaps not. But I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out Harry's parentage has contributed to his special status.
WoJ states that Whampires can only have modest magical talents. Maybe that's retrofitting things after letting Thomas have a tracking-spell? That's unclear to me. Also unclear is whether a Whamp could be up to even weak White-Council standards, or if they don't quite get there... I don't recall if WoJ is explicit on this point.
Bianca had some magic; Arianna had more. Neither was as strong as Harry, but then again: very few White Council wizards are as strong as Harry! I suspect either one could have been a WC wizard, if they hadn't been Ramps.
Mavra absolutely has magic, and I suspect more than either Bianca or Arianna.
I don't recall that particular WOJ, but even assuming that's the case it begs the very interesting question of why not? Black Court and Red Court don't seem to have any issues, and I do think that Mavra seemed to have more than Arianna or Bianca (but not more than a Lord of the Outer Night). My guess is that Jim had certain rules built in for Vampires initially that he has done soft reboots of. Red Court vampires were not supposed to be anywhere near as strong or skillful as White Council Wizards, but tbh we haven't seen much evidence of that. We have only met one "real" Black Court Vampire - the ones that Mavra created in White Night (I think) were both very recent and poor examples of their kind. Mavra is old guard, a step below the Elders of the Black Court I suspect. She is as old as Vlad Tepesh (Dracula, Drakul's son)!
Avernite - Your assuming Justin knew who the father was there. If he didn't know Raith was the father then it fits fine. If he did, then I agree it starts to not hold up well, unless he had some other piece of information about how to get rid of Harry's phage.
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I don't recall that particular WOJ, but even assuming that's the case it begs the very interesting question of why not? Black Court and Red Court don't seem to have any issues, and I do think that Mavra seemed to have more than Arianna or Bianca (but not more than a Lord of the Outer Night). My guess is that Jim had certain rules built in for Vampires initially that he has done soft reboots of. Red Court vampires were not supposed to be anywhere near as strong or skillful as White Council Wizards, but tbh we haven't seen much evidence of that. We have only met one "real" Black Court Vampire - the ones that Mavra created in White Night (I think) were both very recent and poor examples of their kind. Mavra is old guard, a step below the Elders of the Black Court I suspect. She is as old as Vlad Tepesh (Dracula, Drakul's son)!
The concern over Council members being captured and turned by the reds seems to indicate their abilities would carry over pretty equally. BCV magic users probably operate similarly.
As for Mavra, she could actually be an Elder for all we know. Jim has played clues about them close to his vest - we don't know whether there was something qualitatively special about the first thirty, or it's a rank for the thirty top BCV's still 'surviving' where one being destroyed means a replacement is promoted. If it means the latter, she's almost certainly among the top tier by now. If the former, I'd have to expect the Elders would have been priority targets for other nations during Stoker's purge - personally, I strongly suspect Tunguska was Ebenezar's way of targeting some of them - but it's still possible a few slipped through.
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Something that we haven't explored enough in this theory is why Thomas ISN'T a Destroyer/Starborn, especially if he has the same parentage.
The easiest way of explaining why Thomas isn't a Starborn is that they shot at the target and missed. Having said that it fails to account for Elaine if she was Starborn as well.Avernite - Your assuming Justin knew who the father was there.
It's unsafe to assume otherwise. Somebody knew a lot. They knew where Harry was. And Harry didn't have a fixed address. They tagged after him for six years. And they had a plan for losing surveillance after they murdered Malcolm. And a way to shield him from prying eyes. Lash doesn't say that parentage is important. But they couldn't control the circumstances of Harry's birth. The when, where and how unless it was set up before she ran. But if parentage was important and Malcolm was the father then Margaret knew who he was before she ran. He wasn't random. Is there a hole in that?
And I have to ask, doesn't anyone ever find it funny that Harry does so much rat running with senior level angels. Not to mention dream mail from dad. He gets a lot of attention for a non angel.
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The easiest way of explaining why Thomas isn't a Starborn is that they shot at the target and missed.
No one was shooting for anything. Thomas was an accident (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,41205.msg2023493.html#msg2023493):
Did Maggie LeFay Intentionally and for a purpose have a child, Thomas, with Lord Raith?
No. She was having lots of awesome vampire sex and it sort of happened.
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Yeah. Jim seems to have a misconception, common to men. That is, if you are having great vampire sex without the benefit of birth control that a baby is an accident. Your genitals know what evolution created them for, and they are tireless and have a great work ethic.
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Yeah. Jim seems to have a misconception, common to men. That is, if you are having great vampire sex without the benefit of birth control that a baby is an accident. Your genitals know what evolution created them for, and they are tireless and have a great work ethic.
In any case, the point is Maggie didn't have Thomas on purpose.
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Well more seriously, there is what Maggie intended versus what Raith did. Jim does this so much that you can't tell when he does it. Again using his favorite fantasy trope, Obi Wan when confronted by Luke about Vader, tells Luke that what he said was true, in a way. Now I won't say Jim is prevaricating, but he's a little shy about being straightforward. Given that, until shown otherwise, I assume he shading us somehow.
In any case, in Grave Peril Margaret refers to what Raith had done to all three of them, herself and her two sons. While I don't think that means that Raith is Harry's daddy, I don't see a way of escaping the fact that Raith was up to something that involved the three of them. And Raith never laid eyes on Harry until they meet the first time in Chicago. Draw your own conclusions.
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I don't think Raith is Harry's father:
“God knows,” Thomas said. “All I know is that there was some sort of business between them. It developed into something else. Father was trying to snare her permanently, but she wound up being too strong for him to completely enthrall. She escaped him when I was about five. From what I’ve been able to learn, she met your father the next year when she was on the run.”
Butcher, Jim. Blood Rites (The Dresden Files, Book 6) (p. 196). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The implication is that she was on the run for a good while before meeting Malcolm. Also this, later in the book:
“She did,” Ebenezar confirmed. “I don’t know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well.”
I stared at him in pained fascination. “What happened?”
“She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the night you were born, one of her former allies found her and exacted his vengeance for her desertion.”
Butcher, Jim. Blood Rites (The Dresden Files, Book 6) (pp. 349-350). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
She was on the run a total of about two years before dying. So she got pregnant at roughly two years minus about 36 weeks after she left Raith.
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Yeah, I have this whole passage bookmarked in my copy that I use for research. This passage speaks more directly to your point.
"As are you, Harry. So tall, like your father. And I think you have his heart as well."
But the text implies that Harry was planned before Margaret bolted. She planted a working that could only be triggered by a soul gaze in Thomas before she left.
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The easiest way of explaining why Thomas isn't a Starborn is that they shot at the target and missed. Having said that it fails to account for Elaine if she was Starborn as well.
It is certainly possible. Yeah Elaine is a real oddity to me. She doesn't neatly fit in at all. Which absolutely makes me much more interested. I would really like to find out more. She screws up many a theory.
It's unsafe to assume otherwise. Somebody knew a lot. They knew where Harry was. And Harry didn't have a fixed address. They tagged after him for six years. And they had a plan for losing surveillance after they murdered Malcolm. And a way to shield him from prying eyes. Lash doesn't say that parentage is important. But they couldn't control the circumstances of Harry's birth. The when, where and how unless it was set up before she ran. But if parentage was important and Malcolm was the father then Margaret knew who he was before she ran. He wasn't random. Is there a hole in that?
And I have to ask, doesn't anyone ever find it funny that Harry does so much rat running with senior level angels. Not to mention dream mail from dad. He gets a lot of attention for a non angel.
Unsafe eh? Is there something I should know about? Is it dangerous to get WAGs wrong? Well probably, at least on this forum... :P
Yeah it is a curious thing the whole Malcolm thing. I agree that it does appear that she picked him out, whether he was the biological father or not. I do imagine she did fall in love with him. From what we know, he seems like a truly good man. Perhaps that is reason enough. She knew she might have a monster for a kid, and picked the best soul to raise him right that she could. A really interesting study about psychopaths a few years ago postulated that nurture had a lot to do with how psychopaths behaved as adults. Those that received love, particularly from their mothers, were less likely to go around murdering folks and more likely to become successful (if perhaps brutal) people.
But perhaps Michael had special, magical properties that she needed. I find this less likely, but still possible. The quote you use is the only one I recall ever mentioning Malcolm's height. Which could explain away a lot of my theory (so obviously I must dislike it, when the facts fail to fit your theory they must be discarded!)
But as you say, there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that suggests that Margaret knew she was going to have Harry. Perhaps she even predicted it (with her Future Sight). She did plan things out quite far. She knew to leave her jewel with Leah. She planted the vision within Harry and Thomas in order to convince each other they were siblings, so they would protect each other. Who knows what else she planned?
Yeah I know what you mean. In fact, I am surprised Harry isn't more weirded out by how much interaction he has with Angels. Especially Uriel. Almost like Harry will be involved in big, multiverse affecting events. Which all goes back to my frustration that Harry really should question his life more, particularly the weirder stuff. Like how in a decade he hasn't bothered to find out more about his mother, or a what a starborn is etc. I feel he would be less out of his depth if he took the time to just figure out some of the bigger questions in his own life. Not to mention some of the big universal ones, like where do gods come from or why do the Outsiders want to destroy reality or who was the Merlin? Maybe pick up those damn diaries that Eb has!
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Unsafe eh? Is there something I should know about? Is it dangerous to get WAGs wrong? Well probably, at least on this forum...
Absolutely meaningless rhetorical flourish. I like it anyway.
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She was on the run a total of about two years before dying. So she got pregnant at roughly two years minus about 36 weeks after she left Raith.
It's highly likely that she would have been using the Ways extensively to evade those who were hunting her. She could easily have been pregnant for two earth-years with the effects of time dilation.
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But none of that explains why Thomas has very little magical ability and Harry does, apart from a writing reason. My take is Jim when creating Thomas didn't need another Wizard, and his vampire abilities were enough for the story, but he added a little bit of magic later when he needed it in the Back Up short story.
He only went to a tech school for magic instead of pursuing multiple MIT level doctorates. That's the analogy Thomas uses. I believe Jim has said something about Thomas having the requisite talent, but he hasn't nurtured it. Also, a White Court practitioner isn't going to be Council level because of the Hunger, but would also be able to do "weird stuff" with the Hunger. I'm only like 65% certain I'm remembering the WoJ properly. Also what Morris said.
@Morris: Rat running?
Well more seriously, there is what Maggie intended versus what Raith did. Jim does this so much that you can't tell when he does it. Again using his favorite fantasy trope, Obi Wan when confronted by Luke about Vader, tells Luke that what he said was true, in a way. Now I won't say Jim is prevaricating, but he's a little shy about being straightforward. Given that, until shown otherwise, I assume he shading us somehow.
In any case, in Grave Peril[Blood Rites Margaret refers to what Raith had done to all three of them, herself and her two sons. While I don't think that means that Raith is Harry's daddy, I don't see a way of escaping the fact that Raith was up to something that involved the three of them. And Raith never laid eyes on Harry until they meet the first time in Chicago. Draw your own conclusions.
I tend to think murdering his mother so that he is eventually raised by DuMorne unaware of the White Council and the Laws is enough. There may have been more, but I would be surprised by that.
Yeah, I have this whole passage bookmarked in my copy that I use for research. This passage speaks more directly to your point.But the text implies that Harry was planned before Margaret bolted. She planted a working that could only be triggered by a soul gaze in Thomas before she left.
I was looking for that quote and couldn't find it. I knew there was a quote from Soulgaze Maggie either confirming Malcolm's status or close enough for me.
Absolutely meaningless rhetorical flourish. I like it anyway.
As the kids say, lol.
Yeah I know what you mean. In fact, I am surprised Harry isn't more weirded out by how much interaction he has with Angels. Especially Uriel. Almost like Harry will be involved in big, multiverse affecting events. Which all goes back to my frustration that Harry really should question his life more, particularly the weirder stuff. Like how in a decade he hasn't bothered to find out more about his mother, or a what a starborn is etc. I feel he would be less out of his depth if he took the time to just figure out some of the bigger questions in his own life. Not to mention some of the big universal ones, like where do gods come from or why do the Outsiders want to destroy reality or who was the Merlin? Maybe pick up those damn diaries that Eb has!
Isn't it only high level players who have revealed to Harry that they know anything about his starborn/what he was meant for status? Some of whom have acted like he wasn't even there and came to the decision to not inform about things very likely important to him and the survival of the world. I have a feeling he's asked Bob and Bob wasn't helpful.
And for the record, I'm pretty sure Malcolm is Harry's bio-dad, but it's a fun theory that it could have been Raith and Harry fits the Merlin's origin legends.
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@Bad Alias
Rat Running (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_running)
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BA - I honestly found that comparison a weird choice. Harry is an academic in a sense, he certainly has been a student for a long time. But the sheer time it takes to complete one doctorate, let alone several would be prohibitive to Harry's time. He also had school at the time, whilst I respect his training it always seemed more like learning instruments or several martial arts.
But it doesn't explain why Harry is a top 40 Wizard in strength despite being so young (this was established in the early books) and Thomas has next to no magical muscle. At the very least, I would expect have Lord Raith and Maggie as parents should have made him a stronger WCV. I know Thomas kept his head down so his father didn't kill him (as he did to his previous sons) but still.
I never understood that WOJ about how the Hunger interferes with WCV being fairly strong Wizards. Red Court and Black Court don't seem to have any such issues. They almost have next to none and rely exclusively on their Hunger tricks, I don't know what "weirder" stuff they could do but Lord Raith had quite a few back in the day. I would like to see Thomas get a proper power up myself. At the very least, some more magic.
I have no idea why it is only the high level players, but even Chauncy seemed to know a bit. I just think he should pull his head out of the sand and start asking the big questions - and before anyone says it: I know it's all to do with when Jim chooses to reveal these things in a very long series. But for me it is starting to break immersion.
Cheers, I thought it was a fun theory to. I could well be wrong. But that's the fun of these forums right?
Morris: It was a fine phrase, just bantering with you a little. 8)
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I to think it's a bad analogy. I think a professional who constantly hones his skills vs a hobbyist who piddles in his workshop or took a class 15 years ago in high school or something. But my point is that we don't know how powerful Thomas's magic is because he doesn't have the skill to demonstrate his raw power. He probably doesn't even have the skill to do evocation.
I have no idea why it is only the high level players, but even Chauncy seemed to know a bit.
I think a lot of mid level players know/knew a lot, but they never said anything in front of Harry. A prime example being Harry. High level players said stuff in front of, and occasionally to, Harry.
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Very true - but I think Thomas hasn't developed much recently and at less he gets a power up he will die, and he will become a stagnated character if he doesn't do some more character development.
What is Harry a prime example of? I don't follow.
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I meant to say Morgan, and he would be a prime example of a mid level player knowing way more than we/Harry expected.