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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Kindler on April 18, 2019, 06:03:36 PM
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I've been thinking about what we know about Merlin and Demonreach, based on a Reddit thread from a few days ago. One of the questions I have about it that's been bugging me lately is:
How did all of those entities (things, creatures, monsters, demigods, whatever) get imprisoned there? Was there some other kind of prison complex that Merlin took over? Did the Senior Council and Various Allies endeavor to capture the worst of the worst and hold them? Did Merlin personally capture all of those things? Did the previous Wardens seek out new inmates as part of their job? Was there some kind of ritual that trapped them all there simultaneously?
Being a prison built across time, I have zero clue how to really think about it. Were the prisoners, from our perspective, always there? Was there ever an observable (by humans, meaning the past... five thousand years, call it) time when Demonreach wasn't built, or wasn't full of evil things, or both? In fact, did Merlin deliberately drag entities across time to imprison them at some point in the past or their future? Is it possible that Merlin (or another Warden, or whoever) actually imprisoned things that haven't even been born/created yet from Dresden's perspective?
Demonreach has a whole lot of mystery to it, but this is the stuff I want to know the most right now.
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I have thought about it some. Depending on how you roll it, you can't have old gods without worshipers. The same would be true for skin walkers. So no humans, no so called gods or devils.
Jim says that Demonreach was injured by glaciation. The would have meant that it was there for some span of time before the glaciers retreated, somewhere around 11000 years or so ago. And they were there for about 2 million years before that. This could be misdirection by Jim.
Bob says the magic used to create it makes magic as Harry knows it primitive by comparison. Merlin predates Harry by about a thousand years. Yet he time travels at will, creates Demonreach and who knows what else. Somewhere, somehow, Merlin had access to magic he shouldn't have had. Either wizards devolved or he had some very potent help.
Angels use wards. This comes up when Lash still in action. She was discussing the nature of the wards on Michael's panic room. Odin's magic is Rune based. To the best of my memory those are the only advanced forms of magic that we have had a glimpse of.
Almost certainly the circle on Demonreach could contain a god. Mab certainly seems to have thought so. One way to get them there would have been to invoke them, much in the same way Harry invoked the Erlking. But you might have to know their true names. Oh yeah, they might also need to be in this universe.
That's all I got.
As a point of speculation, if you wanted a good WTF moment, you could consider that rather than being captured in the past they might have been captured in the future and sent to the past. Like in that big trilogy at the end.
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I have believed that no one has used demonreach for a while. with the idea that the heavy hitters of the fallen not knowing what it was when they used it and shagnasty not having an issue showing up at a place for a trade where a bunch of his brothers were being held makes me believe that the last time it was used was before that ice age
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I think the problem is getting them there, once there it is pretty clear that Alfred can handle them.
Remember in Cold Days, Harry gave the word and he began to move on Mab in Cold Days, Harry reminded her that if he gave the word, Alfred could put her away, she didn't argue the point and seemed frightened...
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I think the problem is getting them there, once there it is pretty clear that Alfred can handle them.
Remember in Cold Days, Harry gave the word and he began to move on Mab in Cold Days, Harry reminded her that if he gave the word, Alfred could put her away, she didn't argue the point and seemed frightened...
Surely all the entities would eventually work out nto to go there?
It doesn't seem likely that it was just 'getting them there'...
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Surely all the entities would eventually work out nto to go there?
It doesn't seem likely that it was just 'getting them there'...
I'm sure it isn't, but then again because there has been no Warden of the island in a long time, so who knows? Remember though the original creator and most likely Warden was Merlin, himself, he would have the tools to get them too the island... But leave no doubt from the degree of Mab's fright as Alfred moved towards her, he is capable... She is almost as powerful as any of the monsters in the place already.
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Jim says that Demonreach was injured by glaciation. The would have meant that it was there for some span of time before the glaciers retreated, somewhere around 11000 years or so ago. And they were there for about 2 million years before that. This could be misdirection by Jim.
Demonreach (the genius loci, not the prison complex) wasn't created by Merlin, though, if I remember correctly. Genius Loci are spiritual manifestations of a powerful piece of land, so I would expect that Demonreach predates Merlin's prison. And a manifestation of the land would bear whatever scars the land receives. I think Merlin picked the island because it had a reasonably powerful genius loci, and co-opted its purpose, if that makes sense. So damage to the island millennia in the past doesn't necessarily indicate that the prison complex was there.
That aside, I think it's pretty obvious that Demonreach is special where genius loci are concerned; Morgan is particularly surprised to find out that it has intellectus, for example, and I assume that the extra power, and the fact that it can physically manifest itself is a side-effect of sitting in a place of such absurd power.
Bob says the magic used to create it makes magic as Harry knows it primitive by comparison. Merlin predates Harry by about a thousand years. Yet he time travels at will, creates Demonreach and who knows what else. Somewhere, somehow, Merlin had access to magic he shouldn't have had. Either wizards devolved or he had some very potent help.
I've thought this, too. Merlin's description in-universe is so out of line with what we know that wizards can accomplish, even super-powerful ones like Kemmler, that it doesn't really make sense on paper. I suppose it's possible that Merlin was just particularly buff in terms of magical skill, but some of the things attributed to him—particularly Demonreach—just seem to be beyond what a wizard should be able to do. He either had some kind of sponsor (as in a Pact for Power from some higher entity—Odin, maybe; he would've been significantly more powerful back when he had active worshipers, I think, so maybe he could've helped pull things off), worked with a team (of Senior Council-level or higher wizards) to do some of these things, or something else I can't think of.
And yeah, that's what I meant in my original post; it's possible that some of the things imprisoned under Demonreach haven't even been created yet—in that they've been captured in the future and imprisoned in the past.
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Bob says Merlin created the prison in five different times at once. My internal speculation is the number five refers to some kind of pentagram. Possibly a magical containment circle drawn through time. As to Demonreach I don't know.
As to the magic that created the island, JB appears to be doing some slight of hand. Jim says that the prison holds dark gods, which makes it unlikely that Vadderung was ever strong enough to put them there, but not impossible. However he has created a a second talking head in Bonea. She's interesting because of what she could know, she's the scion of the shadow of a fallen angel. She has been gestating since White Knight. She is the biggest plot device in the books. It is in the realm of possibility to believe she is the source of the advanced magic in the DV. ?shrug?
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My guess is he had help, a lot of help. Odin, Mab, Mothers, Hades, Zeus, Uriel..... I'm not saying they did all the leg work, but probably helped tilt the scale so he could get the job done.
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I'm sure it isn't, but then again because there has been no Warden of the island in a long time, so who knows? Remember though the original creator and most likely Warden was Merlin, himself, he would have the tools to get them too the island... But leave no doubt from the degree of Mab's fright as Alfred moved towards her, he is capable... She is almost as powerful as any of the monsters in the place already.
If Merlin could force them there, he'd have been powerful enough to arrest them outright.
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For me the big question is -- how did they imprison all these critters in the first place. Once they captured a couple, the word would have gotten out.
This implies there is some remote "caging" magic that can be used to capture some godling that is not so stupid as to step on the island.
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For me the big question is -- how did they imprison all these critters in the first place. Once they captured a couple, the word would have gotten out.
This implies there is some remote "caging" magic that can be used to capture some godling that is not so stupid as to step on the island.
Word did not get to Shagnasty. It met and fought Harry on Demonreach. It seems lots of powerful beings keep secrets. Information is power. Some know, some don't.
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What if Merlin was just a past generations kemmler who actually won and made a new white council... sorta.
Harry has also mentioned more than once he was probably a real bastard,
hes literally the one who first wrote the rule not to do the kind of stuff kemmler did.
Maybe he had a lot of experience with eating spirits which made him crazy powerful and instead of necromancy his specialty is more enchantments and time travel. seems like a dark hallow would also work against some enemy's army or civilians to some degree, and in the dark ages could have been forgotten
i could see a early wizards quest to gain power from all the powerful creatures around assisted by his mentor Odin and after he gained crazy power from questionable means and after huge spans of time he slowly changes to use his powers for good and is able to modify things a bit to see him in a better light due to him being the mysterious founder of the white council.
not sure if i believe this but it seems to fit better than anything else i can think of
edit: as for creatures being unknowing of demonreach,
Isn't it fact that a large part of the islands magic is mental stuff that's also insanely more complex than anything modern wizards can do?
It has powerful effects on mortals so that over time they decide to forget it exists, which is quite insane for how humans usually act,
also the islands magic is more focused to effect powerful creatures than humans so it stands to reason that those effects wouldn't just effect humans.
something like security through obscurity being a very old concept
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Its possible, albeit difficult, to summon the beings there.
You'd have to first obtain their true name.
Summoning such creatures is generally dangerous, hence the use of a circle.
Except in this case... the island is a giant circle.
I'm not certain most if any creatures, even Cthulhu like gods, can resist a summons?
So I don't think you'd inherently need to remote capture them... just summon them to the island. However, that doesn't explain why Shagnasty would willingly step foot on it and why more don't know of the island.
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Demonreach has not had a warden for centuries. No warden - no danger to shagnasty. And the island does have that really powerful ley line to draw upon if needed. So long as Shagnasty is confident no warden is around, the island is actually a pretty decent place to stage a big battle.
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I have believed that no one has used demonreach for a while. with the idea that the heavy hitters of the fallen not knowing what it was when they used it and shagnasty not having an issue showing up at a place for a trade where a bunch of his brothers were being held makes me believe that the last time it was used was before that ice age
I hate to put this idea out there, because time travel complications can be so annoying, but here goes.
What if Shagnasty didn't have a problem going to Demonreach Isle because he had no clue any of his kind were imprisoned there; because, outside of the prison, they haven't been captured yet? That will happen at a future time. For all we know Harry will be the one that captures them; and to take this idea to its ultimate conclusion, Shagnasty could be one of the prisoners.
Whatever the case may be, I have no doubt that at some point we are going to see Harry capture and imprison a supernatural being. Actually, I think it will happen twice. The first time will show us the process and how difficult it is to pull off, the second time will probably occur in the BAT, and Harry will probably have to imprison multiple supernatural entities.
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Maz's got it. Merlin's Circle is the trap; Demonreach is just the Big Twinkie that holds 'em all.
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One of the things in the conversation between Harry, Bob & Demonreach in CD that stuck out to me was the talk about Harry becoming Warden.
Demonreach says that first there was one, now there are many; implying a link between the two. We know that Merlin built both the prison & created the White Council. Perhaps the original purpose of the initial generations of White Council was to help the Warden of Demonreach fill up the prison?
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One of the things in the conversation between Harry, Bob & Demonreach in CD that stuck out to me was the talk about Harry becoming Warden.
Demonreach says that first there was one, now there are many; implying a link between the two. We know that Merlin built both the prison & created the White Council. Perhaps the original purpose of the initial generations of White Council was to help the Warden of Demonreach fill up the prison?
That's kinda where my head is; the original intent behind building the White Council wasn't just to control wizards and reduce the prevalence of black magic, it was to capture and imprison the worst of the things that are out there.
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I would think that it might have been possible if you designed Demonreach to keep things that happened on it secret, and then did a lot of summoning and trapping. If no one could learn (because Demonreach shut it down) that creature X was summoned there into the big beautiful circle and then imprisoned, then it would still work to summon the next nasty. Once the secret got out it wouldn't work as well, but its possible some big guys were just too arrogant or not informed to take it seriously and still risked it.
Like Shagnasty. I really wish someone had just told Harry to say, "take him below" and let us see how that worked in Turn Coat.
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One thing to consider is that the chamber itself seems to be very very far down with apparent roots that shouldn't be there. This could mean that it's actually a place within the NeverNever much like traveling to Hades domain. If the chamber is really somewhere in the NeverNever then a lot of the "rules" go out the window. Time, space, power are different than in the mortal world. The Island may just be the vault door while the vault itself is somewhere else. Kind of like breaking into Hades vault inside Marcone's bank gave access to Hades domain within the NeverNever. It also means that a Mantle can be at full strength. Mab within Winter is much more powerful than if she's walking around Chicago for example. We don't know what Mantle's of power the designer of DemonReach had.
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IIRC, the island is at a confluence of ley-lines.
I'd bet that any summoning-circle / binding-circle tied to or using ANY of the lines can be used by the Intellectus-bonded Warden as a conduit to the prison-cells. This extends the "reach" of capture to rather more-practical ranges.
Interestingly, if my speculation is correct... it could likely have siphoned Ivy out from the Denarian circle, if only Harry had known... and had been the Demonreach-Warden at the time!
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In my Head Canon, the Wardens keep an extensive file of true names and other thaumaturgic links to unkillable monsters they've encountered. The original purpose of that file was to provide targets the next time Demonreach had a Warden. However, either they've forgotten why they keep those records or whoever keeps them (probably Peabody... *facepalm*) doesn't trust Harry enough yet.
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My 2 cents:
Alfred can be summoned to the Warden as the Warden is part of the island.
To avoid creating a "new" dark god, the island is inherently passive- it can only react unless the Warden directs.
The island is powered by its prisoners.
The island drains its prisoners of their power over time.
It represents the 3rd path for warlocks Harry is looking for.
The Wardens actually answer to the Warden. Harry has kept it down low foolishly.
The magic is a resonant created fractal- Merlin made the conditions and the magic made itself, hence it being so fine and pervasive.
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The timeline of Demonreach implies that there were Wardens well before there was a white council. Demonreach preceded the last ice age after all and the White council is only a few thousand years old.
Some could argue that the formation of the white council itself was (at least in part) intended to provide better support for demonreach than a single (or small group) of wardens could do. Much like the Fey replacing the Dragons as the defenders of the outer gates, things change over time even in the supernatural world. Perhaps the world was getting to complicated for the old warden model. No idea - but it makes for a nice theory.
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the White council is only a few thousand years old.
Even less, I think. Didn't Merlin create the White Council from "the ashes of the Roman Empire?" We're talking 400 AD (if "ashes" refers to "significantly reduced influence") or 476 (if "ashes" refers to "the point at which the Emperor was overthrown by a 'barbarian' leader"). So figure around 500-550 AD for Merlin to have definitely formed the White Council as it is today.
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@groinkick
I really like the idea of the prison on Demonreach being in the Nevernever, however I would point out that Harry never pierced any kind of veil that separates the mortal world like he always does when he gets into the NN. I guess one could argue that the oddly geometric number & shape of the steps as well as the age of the island could make it so there is a unique entrance to the NN.
@g33k
I believe it is pointed out a few times that the island is the well from which a lot of the Ley lines begin - this is a result of the island siphoning off energy from its prisoners. (There must be some ridiculously heavy hitters down there).
@BrainFireBob
Completely agree - that’s where I’m leaning too.
@dspringer
Were the Dragons ever the guardians at the Gates? I believe there is an obscure WoJ that Dragons were in charge of stuff like moving the continental plates & such.
@Kindler
Yes I recall Harry saying that he created it from the ashes of the Roman Empire, which explains Latin as their court language. This would point to the WC being ~1500-1600 years old.
Also since Merlin created the island in 5 different times at once, wouldn’t the first Warden be in the AD era (as opposed to BC) era? While the island is incredibly old, it doesn’t mean that there has been a Warden on it the whole time.
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Bob says Merlin created the prison in five different times at once. My internal speculation is the number five refers to some kind of pentagram.
Hadn't noticed that.
I would think that it might have been possible if you designed Demonreach to keep things that happened on it secret, and then did a lot of summoning and trapping.
There is evidence of this in Skin Game. Anduriel cannot see what's happening on the island while there is a Warden present. Odin/Kringle isn't powerful enough to do that. Mab is, but it seems to me that her ability to "hide" from Anduriel is limited in some manner because she waits until they are a certain distance from Nicodemus to speak "openly" to Harry.
If dark gods are being trapped, I'd assume there is an active Warden. If there is an active Warden, then a member of perhaps the most powerful class of creatures in the DresdenVerse we've seen, whose specialty is spying, cannot see what's happening there. I'd say it's very likely that if a creature is summoned and trapped on Demonreach, then those acts would be unknown to almost every creature in the DresdenVerse who isn't either there or informed of the event.