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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on September 16, 2020, 04:59:44 AM
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In the third chapter of Battleground, Harry says that an Outsider recognized and said what Mac was.
On page222 [hardback] of Cold Days Sharkface says to Mac
"You have no place in this, watcher.Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it.
Then I looked up the term and found this in Wikipedia;
Watcher (Aramaic עִיר ʿiyr, plural עִירִין ʿiyrin, [ʕiːr(iːn)]; Theodotian trans: ir; from the root of Heb. ʿer, "awake, watchful".[1] Greek: ἐγρήγοροι, transl.: egrḗgoroi; "Watchers", "those who are awake"; "guard", "watcher"[2]) is a term used in connection with biblical angels. Watcher occurs in both plural and singular forms in the Book of Daniel (4th–2nd century BC), where reference is made to their holiness. The apocryphal Books of Enoch (2nd–1st centuries BC) refer to both good and bad Watchers, with a primary focus on the rebellious ones.[3][4]
This fits Mac more specifically, this watcher;
Shamsiel, once a guardian of Eden as stated in the Zohar, served as one of the two chief aides to the archangel Uriel (the other aide being Hasdiel) when Uriel bore his standard into battle, and is the head of 365 legions of angels and also crowns prayers, accompanying them to the 5th heaven. In Jubilees, he is referred to as one of the Watchers. He is a fallen angel who teaches the signs of the sun.
Connected to Uriel, Mac is a fallen angel named Shamsiel. Yes, he'd recognize the Placard when he saw it. Yes, looking upon him with his wizard's sight would indeed blind or worse Harry. Yes, Mac would know when Harry stopped using it.
Further is says about watchers;
The watchers are bound "in the valleys of the Earth" until Judgment Day (Jude verse 6 says, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.").
This fits Mac, he is bound to Earth but for the most part stays out of almost everything, but he might be hoping for redemption now, he committed himself with his blood on the Placard to sacrifice himself if necessary for those in his charge.
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Would "fallen" be the right term? The fallen in DF are bound to coins and still have angelic power whereas Mac is mortal (I think there's a WOJ about it somewhere). He's clearly taken a different path compared to the denarians. Something more like the German movie "Wings of Desire" ie angel decides to become human.
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Would "fallen" be the right term? The fallen in DF are bound to coins and still have angelic power whereas Mac is mortal (I think there's a WOJ about it somewhere). He's clearly taken a different path compared to the denarians. Something more like the German movie "Wings of Desire" ie angel decides to become human.
That could be, but the limited research I've done, and it is very limited, believe me, but I've seen that movie and it fits to a degree. The character in the movie appeared to be a watcher angel and chose to become mortal over love. However they can fall and not be evil like the denarians. The impression I've gotten is Mac isn't mortal, that is what Sharkface means when he tells Mac, "you chose your road long ago."
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It was nice to see one of the more common theories basically confirmed.
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The Denarians are the hard core of the Fallen, Lucifer was glad they effectively operate on their own, it was too much like having an overenthusiastic IT Department whose constant interference in the IT Platform kept bringing the whole Organisation to a halt. He outsourced them.
On the opposite end of the spectrum is Mac, he obviously likes humans far more than was healthy for him and that probably was the reason for his fall, he felt more should be done to help humans until HR called him in and gave him an early retirement package as he sympathised far to much with the customers cutting them better details than he should. It was either that or accept mandatory redeployment as a nail.
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Mac's passionate about fatherhood and children.
Per Enoch, the fallen Grigori sired the Nephilim- and the misbehavior of the Nephilim was responsible for the Flood
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Mac's passionate about fatherhood and children.
Per Enoch, the fallen Grigori sired the Nephilim- and the misbehavior of the Nephilim was responsible for the Flood
Yeah, from reading the passages on Wikipedia, it sounds like the watchers gave into temptation.
This is another interpretation;
There are two basic versions of the fallen angels story: the fall of the Watchers, discussed here, and the fall of Lucifer. The Watchers were the “sons of God” who took human wives, and had children. Their children were known as the Nephilim.
Watchers in the Old Testament
“When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, the divine beings saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and took wives from among those that pleased them. The LORD said, ‘My breath shall not abide in man forever, since he too is flesh; let the days allowed him be one hundred and twenty years.’ It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth – when the divine beings cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.” – Genesis 6:1-4
This is the only account of the watchers in the Bible. Isaiah 14:12-15 talks of the fall of the “day-star, son of morning,” which implies that there was a revolt, and the “day-star” was cast into the abyss, but this may be a reference to early Canaanite or Phoenician myths. One other possible reference is Psalm 82.
God standeth in the Congregation of God (El)
In the midst of gods (elohim) He judgeth
All the foundations of the earth are moved.
I said: Ye are gods,
And all of you sons of the Most High (Elyon)
Nevertheles ye shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes (sarim)
Psalm 82:1, 5-7
The parts of the Psalm I have left out are the parts that refer to wicked earthly rulers, but it is agreed upon by many scholars that this part of the Psalm refers to the fallen angels. While Genesis 6 tells that angels married women, it does not condemn this as a sin. Psalm 82 tells that the elohim sinned, but does not tell how (i.e. it does not mention that they married women).
Some rabbis have speculated that the angels’ sin was to reproduce. Certain passages in Jewish Midrash talk of how angels are immortal and do not need to reproduce. Since humans are not, they must reproduce in order to achieve immortality in their descendents.
Watchers in Jewish Midrash
This is a passage from Jewish midrash in which Hannah is praying for a child at Shiloh:
“Lord of the Universe! The celestials never die, and they do not reproduce their kind. Terrestrial beings die, but they are fruitful and multiply. Therefore I pray: Either make me immortal, or give me a son!”
So falling in love and either having or wanting a child by a mortal woman would have condemned Mac it appears.
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Interesting this segues via The Book of Invasions in Irish from Ireland being settled by various groups descended from the sons of Noah, to the rise of Tuatha de Dan and the Fomorians.
This would allow for Mac to be a Grigori, and also husband of Ethnui and father of Lugh who slew Balor.
Knowing Jim he has been giggling away madly about Mac’s identity because he has multiple identities, no one has guessed right about all of it
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Interesting this segues via The Book of Invasions in Irish from Ireland being settled by various groups descended from the sons of Noah, to the rise of Tuatha de Dan and the Fomorians.
This would allow for Mac to be a Grigori, and also husband of Ethnui and father of Lugh who slew Balor.
Knowing Jim he has been giggling away madly about Mac’s identity because he has multiple identities, no one has guessed right about all of it
A Grigori is a watcher angel who mated with humans, giants resulted. Perhaps the father of Ethnui?
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Ethnui’s father was Balor, the prophecy was that her son would kill him, so he made sure she practiced safe sex by locking her alone in a tower for thousands of years until some handsome devil of a Tuatha called MacKineally scaled both the tower and the lady, and begat her son Lugh.
Harry doesn’t mention Ethnui’s name, merely a Titan leading an army of Fomor, if Mac is also MacKineally, it could be especially awkward if Ethnui attacks the pub.
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Ethnui’s father was Balor, the prophecy was that her son would kill him, so he made sure she practiced safe sex by locking her alone in a tower for thousands of years until some handsome devil of a Tuatha called MacKineally scaled both the tower and the lady, and begat her son Lugh.
Harry doesn’t mention Ethnui’s name, merely a Titan leading an army of Fomor, if Mac is also MacKineally, it could be especially awkward if Ethnui attacks the pub.
Killing a former lover? What is so unusual about that? ::) But honestly, since Mac seemed to be clued in on a whole lot of things, most likely he already knows who the Titan is.
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Especially if he has a broad "divine intellectus" and thought about it.
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He couldn’t be more in it if he tried,
I suspect there are quite a few things about his past, Mac deliberately refrains from thinking about, like Harry does Shagnasty. It does make me wonder how much Harry has deduced about Mac.
We keep getting reminded of Lara’s third favour from Mab, what if for Harry to survive to have the strength to take down Ethnui and survive he needs his True Love? Lara might use that last favour for Mab to heal Murphy, no Faustian pact, but Murphy once again at her physical peak and Harry able to retrieve Thomas. It explains the Motorbike scene and the Rocket Launcher scheme, a healed Murphy.
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He couldn’t be more in it if he tried,
I suspect there are quite a few things about his past, Mac deliberately refrains from thinking about, like Harry does Shagnasty. It does make me wonder how much Harry has deduced about Mac.
We keep getting reminded of Lara’s third favour from Mab, what if for Harry to survive to have the strength to take down Ethnui and survive he needs his True Love? Lara might use that last favour for Mab to heal Murphy, no Faustian pact, but Murphy once again at her physical peak and Harry able to retrieve Thomas. It explains the Motorbike scene and the Rocket Launcher scheme, a healed Murphy.
That could work, but it doesn't account for the tears at Christmas. Yeah, I know Harry has a guilt complex, but this strikes me as mourning. Thomas could either be dead or because he was really guilty of what he is accused of, must remain on Demonreach. That could account for some of it, but where is his true love? I don't buy that Michael and Charity are so narrow minded that Murphy wouldn't be welcome as an over night guest on Christmas Eve give how her and Harry feel about one another. Nor do I buy that Murphy would rather be with her relatives than her true love, or some twisted idea that because of little Maggie she stayed at home. I think it is significant that the scene where Harry leaves her behind at Mac's place to her objections is a replay of what he wanted her to do in Peace Talks, she objected that time as well. I like Harry's comment about her being an adult, because her reaction was a bit childish.. I still think she is going to bail Mac's place, and will be killed.
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Obviously Murphy is immediately killed by the giant she just killed with the rocket launcher falling on her. Her last words “totally worth it”.
You don’t think Jim wouldn’t miraculously heal Murphy only to immediately kill her off? That way Jim gets to annoy both the Murphyphiles AND the Murphyphobes in the space of a couple of chapters, AND totally put Harry through the wringer.
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Obviously Murphy is immediately killed by the giant she just killed with the rocket launcher falling on her. Her last words “totally worth it”.
You don’t think Jim wouldn’t miraculously heal Murphy only to immediately kill her off? That way Jim gets to annoy both the Murphyphiles AND the Murphyphobes in the space of a couple of chapters, AND totally put Harry through the wringer.
Why not? It isn't like he hasn't pissed off fans in the past. Also there is more than one giant out there, they have already met up with a giant squid. And you assume she killed the giant, what if she missed or merely wounded it. What if shortly after she is swarmed by turtle necks?
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Mine is funnier. It plays into Murphy’s need to take down the big guys to make up for her lack of height, she takes down the biggest yet, since the footprint on the beach something like this has been telegraphed.
Murphy miss? Since when? and a target literally as large as a barn door?
pshah,
Mind you, love to see Brioche’s face the next day on the autopsy of a non human giant. If there is any justice Brioche ends up in the funny farm in the aftermath and Butters gets his job.
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I don't buy that Michael and Charity are so narrow minded that Murphy wouldn't be welcome as an over night guest on Christmas Eve give how her and Harry feel about one another.
They still have their own children at home. Matthew is 21-22; Alicia about 19; Hope 14 or 15; Amanda 13 1/2; Hank 12 1/2. I don't know how susceptible to that kind of mixed messaging Matthew and Alicia would be, but I doubt Michael and Charity would be want to send that kind of message to the younger ones. Michael was uncomfortable with Harry's relationship with Susan.
Additionally, they might have a full house already with all the kids back for Christmas. Especially if any of the older kids have gotten married. It'd make sense for Harry to be there if he hadn't found a new place to live yet, but not really for Murphy to not just come over in the morning. Before my grandmother passed, our family had gotten to the size that some of us stayed with my uncle because there just wasn't enough room for us all to stay at my grandmother's when all her kids visited. And we could fit nine of us at my grandmother's. While the Carpenters are not dealing with grandchildren yet, they did get a head start on the numbers.
Mind you, love to see Brioche’s face the next day on the autopsy of a non human giant. If there is any justice Brioche ends up in the funny farm in the aftermath and Butters gets his job.
There are so many characters that it would be nice to see get their comeuppance.
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Would "fallen" be the right term? The fallen in DF are bound to coins and still have angelic power whereas Mac is mortal (I think there's a WOJ about it somewhere). He's clearly taken a different path compared to the denarians. Something more like the German movie "Wings of Desire" ie angel decides to become human.
There are many more Fallen than the 30 bound to the coins, it's just against the rules for them to do much of anything. Harry was surprised what the 30 could do through their mortal partner / slave when Michael explained the Denarians.
And the WOJ about Mac wasn't that he's mortal - the way he healed as soon as Mab took the bullet out of him in CD confirms that he's not. It was that he hasn't done anything a mortal couldn't. He's retired, not mortal.
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They still have their own children at home. Matthew is 21-22; Alicia about 19; Hope 14 or 15; Amanda 13 1/2; Hank 12 1/2. I don't know how susceptible to that kind of mixed messaging Matthew and Alicia would be, but I doubt Michael and Charity would be want to send that kind of message to the younger ones. Michael was uncomfortable with Harry's relationship with Susan.
Additionally, they might have a full house already with all the kids back for Christmas. Especially if any of the older kids have gotten married. It'd make sense for Harry to be there if he hadn't found a new place to live yet, but not really for Murphy to not just come over in the morning. Before my grandmother passed, our family had gotten to the size that some of us stayed with my uncle because there just wasn't enough room for us all to stay at my grandmother's when all her kids visited. And we could fit nine of us at my grandmother's. While the Carpenters are not dealing with grandchildren yet, they did get a head start on the numbers.
If Murphy was coming over in the morning Harry wouldn't have been so depressed. Also it is a large house, at least two of the kids have left home.. Even if all the bedrooms are full, there still is Charity's sewing room where they used to put Harry when he was injured, the floor, or a sofa.
And the WOJ about Mac wasn't that he's mortal - the way he healed as soon as Mab took the bullet out of him in CD confirms that he's not. It was that he hasn't done anything a mortal couldn't. He's retired, not mortal.
As Sharkface told him, "you chose your path long ago." Now that could mean a lot of things, I don't think watcher angels can just retire, but they can "sin" which would force their retirement, even if it wasn't a full Monty fall like Satan or the Denarians.
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Perhaps Mac has more than one identity. It could be for instance he is Ethniu's former lover MacKineely and father of Lugh. Perhaps he is also another person. For instance, if the Harry is a Nephilim theory is true - Mac could also be his father.
I guess we will find out
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I think Mac “stumbled” rather than fell, but yes Mac has probably had multiple identities over the years, but I doubt he is Harry’s father. Malcolm is clearly Harry’s father, and the Dresden name would be German and not Irish and means ”people from the Forest by the River” which is interesting in itself, it may indicate Malcolm may have had non-human ancestry which is responsible for his height. He certainly doesn’t get that from Eb.
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I think Mac “stumbled” rather than fell, but yes Mac has probably had multiple identities over the years, but I doubt he is Harry’s father. Malcolm is clearly Harry’s father, and the Dresden name would be German and not Irish and means ”people from the Forest by the River” which is interesting in itself, it may indicate Malcolm may have had non-human ancestry which is responsible for his height. He certainly doesn’t get that from Eb.
Stumble as opposed to fall accurately describes what happened to some of the watchers I think. As one rabbi put it, their only sin was having sex with a mortal, not evil. Could it be that Harry has had an effect on Mac as well? I mean several times in the series Mac is described as "retired" or having removed himself from involvement, yet since he has known Harry, Mac has become increasingly involved. Beginning with tossing Harry the keys to his Trans Am in Storm Front, to complete commitment in Battleground, placing his blood on the back of the Placard in affect once more swearing to watch and protect those who have taken shelter in his bar.
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Should note the Bible does have good watchers as well. At least in Daniel.
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Should note the Bible does have good watchers as well. At least in Daniel.
All the watchers the way I understand it started out good, many had specific jobs on Earth looking
after mankind, but many liked the human ladies, that is where a lot of the trouble began. Also the
impression I got reading the various sites, not just Wikipedia, that though they are considered fallen, they are not in the same boat as those that followed Lucifer. That is why I quoted the rabbi who said their main sin was sex with the ladies, not evil in of itself.
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If Murphy was coming over in the morning Harry wouldn't have been so depressed.
He might be if some combination of Ebeneezer, the Alphas, Mac, Ivy, a bunch of innocent bystanders, Sanya, Butters, Mort, his warden friends, etc. died, and his brother was pretty close to the functional equivalent of dead, which he is. Your just assuming the only way he'll be depressed is if Murphy died. I disagree. Murphy's death is a sufficient, but not necessary, cause of Harry being depressed. Therefore, Murphy not being there isn't evidence that she isn't coming over or is dead. You're saying the fact that Murphy isn't there supports the statement that Michael and Charity wouldn't object to Harry's girlfriend sleeping over because the only reason she wouldn't be is because she's dead. You're saying that to support the proposition that if Murphy isn't there it's because she's dead.
You assert four premises and a conclusion.
Premise 1: Michael and Charity wouldn't object to Murphy spending the night sending the message that premarital relations are okay.
Premise 2: Murphy would be there if she were alive.
Premise 3: Harry would only be depressed if Murphy died.
Premise 4: Murphy isn't there.
Conclusion: Murphy's dead.
I reject premises 1, 2, and 3. Premise 3 is nonsense. Premise 2 has no support beyond wild conjecture. It would require Murphy not wanting to stay at her home, her not wanting to spend Christmas morning with her family, and Murphy wanting to be there for Harry and Maggie's first Christmas together all to be true. Premise 1 depends on the house being having extra room and Micheal and Charity to be okay with a boyfriend and girlfriend sleeping under the same roof when there isn't much of a reason for it. I agree with premise 4 because I reject premise 1, but we don't have definitive evidence that she isn't there.
Also it is a large house, at least two of the kids have left home.
I addressed that point.Additionally, they might have a full house already with all the kids back for Christmas. Especially if any of the older kids have gotten married.
Even if all the bedrooms are full, there still is Charity's sewing room where they used to put Harry when he was injured, the floor, or a sofa.
You mean the room Maggie's likely to be sleeping in?
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Perhaps Harry works out that Eb killed Malcolm to get him away from him and disappeared him into the foster system “for his own good” AND arranged for Justin to retrieve him, not realising Justin had his own agenda.
With Christmas and his last fading memories of his father, that would do it, and why Kringle’s gift worked when nothing else did, it brought back to Harry a piece of his father, just when he needed it.
As Eb said it’s always the person you don’t expect who betrays you. He might have known what he was talking about.
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He might be if some combination of Ebeneezer, the Alphas, Mac, Ivy, a bunch of innocent bystanders, Sanya, Butters, Mort, his warden friends, etc. died, and his brother was pretty close to the functional equivalent of dead, which he is. Your just assuming the only way he'll be depressed is if Murphy died. I disagree. Murphy's death is a sufficient, but not necessary, cause of Harry being depressed. Therefore, Murphy not being there isn't evidence that she isn't coming over or is dead. You're saying the fact that Murphy isn't there supports the statement that Michael and Charity wouldn't object to Harry's girlfriend sleeping over because the only reason she wouldn't be is because she's dead. You're saying that to support the proposition that if Murphy isn't there it's because she's dead.
No, Harry is an adult, so is Murphy, Michael and Charity both know that. She can spend the night and sleep somewhere else, as I said, it is a big house, she doesn't have to sleep with Harry if the implications of that bothered Charity and Michael morally... But she isn't there, Molly, Kringle, hell even Mab are bending over backwards to be nice to him. Not just because he is the hero, but because of what he has lost, his grief, perhaps he'd feel that bad over Thomas and Eb, but all the more reason for Murphy to be there. So yeah, I can think of two reasons why she wouldn't be there with him on Christmas Eve, well, maybe three. She was so pissed because she felt Harry was over protective of her she broke up with him.. The second reason is she is still in the hospital even more broken up than before.. But if that were true going to visit her the next day in the hospital might have been mentioned.. It wasn't. Or she is dead.
I reject premises 1, 2, and 3. Premise 3 is nonsense. Premise 2 has no support beyond wild conjecture. It would require Murphy not wanting to stay at her home, her not wanting to spend Christmas morning with her family, and Murphy wanting to be there for Harry and Maggie's first Christmas together all to be true. Premise 1 depends on the house being having extra room and Micheal and Charity to be okay with a boyfriend and girlfriend sleeping under the same roof when there isn't much of a reason for it. I agree with premise 4 because I reject premise 1, but we don't have definitive evidence that she isn't there.
Murphy isn't so close with her family that she'd rather spend it with them than with her one true love. In fact, if she was alive and spending Christmas with her family was so important, her true love and his kid would be with her, with them. Not at Michael's place.
Also it is a large house, at least two of the kids have left home.
I addressed that point.
You tried and I blew it out of the water.
Even if all the bedrooms are full, there still is Charity's sewing room where they used to put Harry when he was injured, the floor, or a sofa.
You mean the room Maggie's likely to be sleeping in?
Your point?? Is there a problem with Maggie sharing a room with Murphy for the night??
Perhaps Harry works out that Eb killed Malcolm to get him away from him and disappeared him into the foster system “for his own good” AND arranged for Justin to retrieve him, not realising Justin had his own agenda.
With Christmas and his last fading memories of his father, that would do it, and why Kringle’s gift worked when nothing else did, it brought back to Harry a piece of his father, just when he needed it.
As Eb said it’s always the person you don’t expect who betrays you. He might have known what he was talking about.
I don't buy that for an instant.. For starters Eb said that Malcolm had as good a soul as he'd ever seen. I doubt he murder someone like that. Also Malcolm had no magical powers what so ever, he was raising little Harry like any other non-talented kid, just like Eb claimed he liked.
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Malcolm couldn’t protect Harry, it didn’t matter that Eb liked him, and he made sure he died in a peaceful way.
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I think the Angel's "Don't hurt yourself"is more than just courtesy of humans not being able to handle an Angels presence with Third Site, I think it's just literally they don't want a stranger to view them that intimately
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Jim could not show Murphy in Christmas Eve because the story was published before Battle Ground And that would be a big spoiler.
So Murphy not there says absolutely nothing.
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Jim could not show Murphy in Christmas Eve because the story was published before Battle Ground And that would be a big spoiler.
So Murphy not there says absolutely nothing.
Or is says a lot, it can be a spoiler without being an overt spoiler. True, Jim wants us to be in suspense, however Murphy isn't present, Harry is grieving heavily. Given where the relationship was headed at the end of Skin Game, and where it is as of Peace Talks, it doesn't have to be spelled out, her not being there is a spoiler.
Besides there were plenty of spoilers in Christmas Eve, Harry saved the city apparently but a lot of people died, Mab, Michael, his family, Harry, Molly, Maggie, Kringle, Mouse, and Sarrissa all survived. Those are spoilers, what we don't know is who is on the butcher's list.
Another possibility, Harry's worst nightmare did come true, Murphy took up a coin to be able to physically fight. That could be the Faustian bargain Harry mentioned. It is a wonder she can get around at all, she cut off her casts, but it isn't just a matter of her knee, elbow, and shoulder being closed to healed anyway and the muscles being weak from being in a cast.. No, she had yet another round of surgery coming up because the damage wasn't fully repaired, then another six months of rehab to be fifty percent of what she was. So to run around in the street and get hold of a rocket launcher no matter how easy to use, either Mac feels he is in for a penny in for a pound and heals her so she can do it... Or she somehow runs into Nic who'd find it delicious revenge to give a weakened and desperate Murphy an offer she cannot refuse.
Malcolm couldn’t protect Harry, it didn’t matter that Eb liked him, and he made sure he died in a peaceful way.
However that totally flies in the face of what Eb told Harry as to how such a child should be handled. How protected was Harry after Malcolm died? Did Eb even care enough to keep track of him in case his talent did kick in so he could be properly trained?
I think the Angel's "Don't hurt yourself"is more than just courtesy of humans not being able to handle an Angels presence with Third Site, I think it's just literally they don't want a stranger to view them that intimately
No, I think it would be the same effect as when he saw the skinwalker with his sight.. Only this time it would be the overwhelming angelic light and beauty that would blind him and bring him pain.
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Jim could not show Murphy in Christmas Eve because the story was published before Battle Ground And that would be a big spoiler.
So Murphy not there says absolutely nothing.
Except that Jim loves tormenting us.
Eb’s idea of child raising is to raise the child away from its family anonymously until it expresses any ability. Morgan at least was keeping tabs on the Young Harry, we don’t know who else was, but what happened to Harry is strikingly close to what Eb would have for Maggie and probably what he did to Margaret. Harry saw a pattern he didn’t like and wasn’t going to repeat.
I do not doubt Malcolm was approached by Eb and rebuffed, Eb may have then sought to whammy him, but Eb’s clumsiness and Malcolm’s love for his son may have led to the haemorrhage which killed him. Eb doesn’t strike me as being the subtle sort at mental manipulation like Molly. It didn’t stop Eb achieving his ends.
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Except that Jim loves tormenting us.
Eb’s idea of child raising is to raise the child away from its family anonymously until it expresses any ability. Morgan at least was keeping tabs on the Young Harry, we don’t know who else was, but what happened to Harry is strikingly close to what Eb would have for Maggie and probably what he did to Margaret. Harry saw a pattern he didn’t like and wasn’t going to repeat.
I do not doubt Malcolm was approached by Eb and rebuffed, Eb may have then sought to whammy him, but Eb’s clumsiness and Malcolm’s love for his son may have led to the haemorrhage which killed him. Eb doesn’t strike me as being the subtle sort at mental manipulation like Molly. It didn’t stop Eb achieving his ends.
Yes, he is, thought of a fifth reason why Murphy may not be with Harry at Christmas, she is in prison for the murder of Harvey. That is the only reason why that chapter makes any sense, other than to show that Murphy and Harry are having sex. But what do those accusations have to do with anything? There is a whisper in there that Rudolph is under Marcone's thumb, that is why the investigation has been lowered to internal affairs, but Murphy hasn't been on the police force for a number of years now, nor has Harry had anything to do officially with them. So other than laying the ground for Murphy going to prison, I don't understand why it is in there, if anything it was a distraction from the rest of the story.
However back to the trailer,once again either it is way off or Murphy got a miracle cure. Just before
she shoulders rocket launcher, she is squatting down to set it up.. Believe me, with a unhealed badly injured knee, that is nearly impossible to do. I still don't get why they didn't do an outright knee replacement in the first place.
Back to Eb, like a lot of us, he has made a lot of mistakes in his life, now he is trying to justify them.
His attack on Harry was so unfair saying he was the one thing in common between the deaths of Margaret, Malcolm, and Susan.. So being born was Harry's fault, being a six year old child while his father died or was murdered was his fault, Susan to some degree, yes, but she also responsible for a lot of it. Eb, in my opinion felt his job was more important than raising his daughter, so he ignored her, then he was shocked when she rebelled against his authority as her master. If Harry had known who he was when he went to live with him as an angry sixteen year old kid, it would also have turned out badly. No, I still think Eb had nothing to do with Malcolm's death, he is just trying to justify his own short comings. Notice in Morgan's journal, if Eb knew that Margaret asked him to look after Harry, Eb didn't say a word to Morgan about it or offer to help keep tabs on his grandson.
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I doubt Rudolph is in the employ of Marcone, Marcone expects his people to be competent, which Rudy is not. It is quite clear that Marcone owns far more senior cops, so it suggests that Rudy is in the pay of someone else, most likely candidate, the White Council and the Merlin faction. They can’t buy anyone in homicide because Marcone got there first. This is why it is Rudy.
They are likely using Rudy to see what Harry was up to with Nicodemus, they know somehow it broke Nicky’s powerbase as Carlos himself acknowledges, but what else? They would have no interest in Murphy (but Rudy has a long-term beef with Murphy, and would let this personal animosity get in the way of his investigation, as I said he isn’t competent).
If push comes to shove, Harry can give evidence of the events leading up to Harvey’s death and point the finger at Tessa, in the wake of Battle Ground, a Denarian culprit will be believable, when before it was not, remember Tilly has a minor practitioners gift, he knows when someone is lying or not. Harry can tell him the truth, be believed and not be institutionalised. I suspect Rudy will do less well against Tilly.
I do give you another option as to why Murphy isn’t around, a restored Murphy is at Quantico, training. If the Feds are serious about the Supernatural then they would snap her up. So Christmas Eve could have Harry having to put Eb away, realising what Eb has done in the past and him being separated from his girlfriend, and his brother in stasis, and shouldering the guilt of everyone who died.
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I doubt Rudolph is in the employ of Marcone, Marcone expects his people to be competent, which Rudy is not. It is quite clear that Marcone owns far more senior cops, so it suggests that Rudy is in the pay of someone else, most likely candidate, the White Council and the Merlin faction. They can’t buy anyone in homicide because Marcone got there first. This is why it is Rudy.
That is up in the air, but; page48 Peace Talks
I rubbed at the spot between my eyes and growled. "Someone is pulling strings behind the scenes. They got the case bumped over to one of their people. Rudolph"
"And Marcone owns Rudolph," Karrin said. She pursed her lips. "Or so we assumed."
They are likely using Rudy to see what Harry was up to with Nicodemus, they know somehow it broke Nicky’s powerbase as Carlos himself acknowledges, but what else? They would have no interest in Murphy (but Rudy has a long-term beef with Murphy, and would let this personal animosity get in the way of his investigation, as I said he isn’t competent).
But it makes no sense in the context of the book, unless it is a set up for the next book. Now it may happen but so much is going to go down in Battleground that I doubt we will know for a book or maybe even two.
If push comes to shove, Harry can give evidence of the events leading up to Harvey’s death and point the finger at Tessa, in the wake of Battle Ground, a Denarian culprit will be believable, when before it was not, remember Tilly has a minor practitioners gift, he knows when someone is lying or not. Harry can tell him the truth, be believed and not be institutionalised. I suspect Rudy will do less well against Tilly.
Can he? They have more against Harry being at the scene than Murphy. Also he'd be trying to explain supernatural events to a jury. Then again after Battleground, they might buy it.
I do give you another option as to why Murphy isn’t around, a restored Murphy is at Quantico, training. If the Feds are serious about the Supernatural then they would snap her up. So Christmas Eve could have Harry having to put Eb away, realising what Eb has done in the past and him being separated from his girlfriend, and his brother in stasis, and shouldering the guilt of everyone who died.
Maybe, but if that were true, I don't think Harry would break down and weep like that, I think it is more. He'd be sad about Eb, true, but he was an old man and if he died well, I don't see Harry weeping for him. Thomas may still be on Demonreach, but if he is alive, I don't see Harry weeping for him, there is still hope he'll figure out a solution for him. Interesting when he put him in stasis Harry mentioned Merlin breaking one of the Laws of Magic, time travel to build Demonreach. Perhaps this is the excuse he uses to time travel, it is the only way he can see what happened with Thomas? No, I see Harry weeping for his child, but she lives obviously, so it has to be Murphy. As I said it also accounts for Mab and Kringle treating him like they did.
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It’s Christmas, he is missing his dad, and that loss has recently been brought home to him and magnified, his girlfriend and brother aren’t around to console him, only Maggie keeps him going and she keeps asking where’s Great Grandad, and he is shouldering the guilt of so much other loss.
And he has had to sit through Frozen lots of times.
No wonder Kringles gift helps, it has brought back one of his most treasured memories sharp and into focus for and gave something tangible of his father’s to cherish, pushing away more recent bad memories.
He probably still has to sit through Frozen several more times over The Holidays though.
Meanwhile over in Los Angeles, Carlos is having to sit down with his family at Christmas whilst they watch “The 40 Year Old Virgin” again instead of Frozen. Then they watch Frozen.
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Maybe, but if that were true, I don't think Harry would break down and weep like that, I think it is more. He'd be sad about Eb, true, but he was an old man and if he died well, I don't see Harry weeping for him
I strongly disagree; I think the conversation between Harry and Murphy about talking to him before it's too late after Harry fights Eb could very well be foreshadowing for this. And Harry seems very torn up to find out how bad of shape Eb's in mentally.
I really don't think Murphy is going to die in BG, I think the series needs her.
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Maybe, but if that were true, I don't think Harry would break down and weep like that, I think it is more... it has to be Murphy.
I do expect Murphy to die... but...
I can imagine the same emotional impact from a long list of people and places destroyed. Mac's burned to the ground with Mac, Billy, Georgia and a bunch of other eager young paranetters dead because Harry gave them a rousing pep talk rather than urging them to run for the hills; Butters, Andy and Marci dead getting Harry a shot at Ethniu that doesn't pay off; Michael's house firebombed by Nic's goons while the fae are distracted; half the city flattened with an unrecognizable skyline; Yoshimo and Wild Bill dead in an attack Harry led them on; Fix cut down in a blaze of glory -- leaving exactly zero of the changling kids he tried to protect in Summer Knight; Luccio ambushed, bringing a cohort of wardens to reinforce the defenses; Eb killed without a chance to ever take back the things Harry said when they fought on the docks; Justine and the baby dead because Harry pulled off Goodman Grey to look into something else...
The loss he talked about on Christmas Eve was the cumulative loss of a whole bunch of people -- and his usual arrogance of blaming himself for all of it, not just the loss of one lover.
But, yeah... I think Murphy's toast. I just want to see her get a blaze of glory on the way out.
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I do expect Murphy to die... but...
I can imagine the same emotional impact from a long list of people and places destroyed. Mac's burned to the ground with Mac, Billy, Georgia and a bunch of other eager young paranetters dead because Harry gave them a rousing pep talk rather than urging them to run for the hills; Butters, Andy and Marci dead getting Harry a shot at Ethniu that doesn't pay off; Michael's house firebombed by Nic's goons while the fae are distracted; half the city flattened with an unrecognizable skyline; Yoshimo and Wild Bill dead in an attack Harry led them on; Fix cut down in a blaze of glory -- leaving exactly zero of the changling kids he tried to protect in Summer Knight; Luccio ambushed, bringing a cohort of wardens to reinforce the defenses; Eb killed without a chance to ever take back the things Harry said when they fought on the docks; Justine and the baby dead because Harry pulled off Goodman Grey to look into something else...
The loss he talked about on Christmas Eve was the cumulative loss of a whole bunch of people -- and his usual arrogance of blaming himself for all of it, not just the loss of one lover.
But, yeah... I think Murphy's toast. I just want to see her get a blaze of glory on the way out.
Yeah, but I wonder how much Harry really wanted to take back? Because from his point of view it was all true. The problem is Eb never said he was sorry or that he may have even made a mistake.
He cannot even see why Harry is trying to raise Maggie, even if it may put her some danger. The emotional damage that was done to both Harry and his mother by Eb's abandonment cannot be measured.
It’s Christmas, he is missing his dad, and that loss has recently been brought home to him and magnified, his girlfriend and brother aren’t around to console him, only Maggie keeps him going and she keeps asking where’s Great Grandad, and he is shouldering the guilt of so much other loss.
But that is the whole point! This is the man she loves, knowing him the way she does, if she were alive Murphy would be there helping or even fighting with him on how to put that bike together! I don't buy she is with her family, then "they'd" be with her family. What is preventing her from being there? Breakup? Coin? Severe injury? Prison? Or death? I don't even think becoming an F.B.I. agent would keep her away from Harry on such a night.
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I strongly disagree; I think the conversation between Harry and Murphy about talking to him before it's too late after Harry fights Eb could very well be foreshadowing for this. And Harry seems very torn up to find out how bad of shape Eb's in mentally.
I really don't think Murphy is going to die in BG, I think the series needs her.
As I said before in the thread who's going to die in BG, Harry's going through a changing of the guard with his teammates. We may think the series needs her, but her time as we knew her is over. She's vanilla mortal and stubborn as hell and hurt, not a good combo for survival against supernatural foes.
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As I said before in the thread who's going to die in BG, Harry's going through a changing of the guard with his teammates. We may think the series needs her, but her time as we knew her is over. She's vanilla mortal and stubborn as hell and hurt, not a good combo for survival against supernatural foes.
I still think the biggest mistake Jim made was first demoting her then kicking her off the police force. I think he has been struggling to find the right fit for her ever since.
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I still think the biggest mistake Jim made was first demoting her then kicking her off the police force. I think he has been struggling to find the right fit for her ever since.
It might be, but another way of looking at it might be one of setting up the psyche to see how far one can fall before doing something dangerous and completely out of range and abilities. She has fallen to a point so low from where she was in the beginning and Harry just pushed her down even further by telling her to stay put. Yes it's to defend the people of Chicago while Harry goes to defend the city of Chicago, but it's not where she thinks she should be.
Jim has either set her up to find her new click and return in the future with new friends to help in the BAT, or he is setting her up to go in a blaze of glory and gore. Which would be perfect for MM, a story about how much his decisions changed the world, for good and bad.
And no, no power ups for Murphy. Last I heard, Jim said no power ups for her unless it's a bigger gun. So no return as an avenging angel or a new hire for Monoc security. It would cheapen her character.
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It might be, but another way of looking at it might be one of setting up the psyche to see how far one can fall before doing something dangerous and completely out of range and abilities. She has fallen to a point so low from where she was in the beginning and Harry just pushed her down even further by telling her to stay put. Yes it's to defend the people of Chicago while Harry goes to defend the city of Chicago, but it's not where she thinks she should be.
Jim has either set her up to find her new click and return in the future with new friends to help in the BAT, or he is setting her up to go in a blaze of glory and gore. Which would be perfect for MM, a story about how much his decisions changed the world, for good and bad.
And no, no power ups for Murphy. Last I heard, Jim said no power ups for her unless it's a bigger gun. So no return as an avenging angel or a new hire for Monoc security. It would cheapen her character.
That foreshadowing is inescapable. She will get a nuclear bomb.
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That foreshadowing is inescapable. She will get a nuclear bomb.
Well, that would be going out in a real blaze of gory... ::)
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I still like her being killed by the falling giant she just killed with the RPG.
Perhaps we ought to set up the Murphy Dead Pool, all the ways she could die in Battle Ground.
How about “slips on the bowel movement involuntarily left by Rudy when he saw the Fomor, and breaks her neck”
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I still like her being killed by the falling giant she just killed with the RPG.
Perhaps we ought to set up the Murphy Dead Pool, all the ways she could die in Battle Ground.
How about “slips on the bowel movement involuntarily left by Rudy when he saw the Fomor, and breaks her neck”
That is hard to top.. :o
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Or to bottom.
How about
“Dies from fractured skull caused by improperly fixed Placard falling on her”
Or
“dies from strangulation by catching a cord holding an improvised explosive device around her neck on a projection.”
Literally hoist by her own petard.
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Well, that would be going out in a real blaze of gory... ::)
Of course not. She is safe with Mac. The placard also works against a nuclear blast. The rest of Chicago is not that lucky but Molly could evacuate the carpenters on time but now you understand why Murphy did not want to celebrate Christmas with the carpenters. The masquerade is safe though, everything was explained.
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Of course not. She is safe with Mac. The placard also works against a nuclear blast. The rest of Chicago is not that lucky but Molly could evacuate the carpenters on time but now you understand why Murphy did not want to celebrate Christmas with the carpenters. The masquerade is safe though, everything was explained.
I know she is safe, you know she is safe, Harry knows she is safe, however does Murphy want to be safe? You know how she is, she has her own ideas and likes to do things her way. I will be shocked if she remains inside Mac's place even if she can do an important job by remaining there. I look for her to go out into the battle, the trailer shows her doing that. Though I have real problems with how that is shown unless she gets a instant healing somewhere. She came up from a squat to activate that rocket launcher, not a wiggle, wobble, or sign of pain, if you've ever suffered even a minor knee problem you know how hard it is to do that... Yes, take the trailer with a grain of salt, but evidently she does leave the bar to join the fight, whether that is wise or not, we will have to see in the book.
Oh, and the Carpenters are perfectly safe, Harry states that early in Peace Talks. They are safe from all supernatural threats, and thanks to Molly, mortal as well.. And none of that explains Murphy not being there for Harry at Christmas, especially if she knows how down he is emotionally. Not if she still loves him in any way.
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McAnally’s, Demonreach and the Carpenters are all supernatural bomb shelters, each for their own reason and each can withstand the Eye of Balor. It is interesting that Harry has placed each of the three people he loves in each one of them.
The Placard is a superthreshold, it cant protect against mundane weapons, but someone within its protection could probably survive an energy attack like the eye of Balor, or a curse like a death curse or an entropy curse launched from outside, and would strip someone not invited by Mac of their power. Theoretically it may even render someone immortal killable like the Stone Table should they come in uninvited. That’s why I think it is also a trap for Ethnui, as well as a protection from her, should she pass the threshold without invitation, Harry might be able to kill her DED with the Athame and her power siphoned off into Mac (it has to go somewhere, on the Table it goes to the Court holding it, on Halloween it goes to mortals. It would make sense it goes to the person empowering the Placard, and I don’t think Mac would explode, he could contain it).
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McAnally’s, Demonreach and the Carpenters are all supernatural bomb shelters, each for their own reason and each can withstand the Eye of Balor. It is interesting that Harry has placed each of the three people he loves in each one of them.
I totally doubt that Harry would have placed Murphy at Mac's bar if she had been fit to fight. To begin with she would have neutered him for suggesting it, then would have gone on to do her best to kick ass. If he wanted her totally safe, as he said, he would have left her on the island.
The Placard and Mac, now that is interesting, I am wondering if Harry hadn't realized that Mac knew what it was, and what he might be, if Harry hadn't intended for Murphy to smear her blood on the back of it. Thus anyone trying to get in would have to go through her. However that seems unlikely because at the end of the day she is still semi-incapacitated. I was a bit shocked that she argued with Harry at all to go with him into battle. He had to push her to Mac's in a shopping cart because he needed to move out quickly to get done what he needs to do. As a warrior, and I argued this at the end of Peace Talks, she should know her limits, her arguments for going were not rational.. I especially thought her telling Harry he didn't want to her to go because that he feels she'd be a "distraction" to him, beneath her.
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I know she is safe, you know she is safe, Harry knows she is safe, however does Murphy want to be safe? You know how she is, she has her own ideas and likes to do things her way. I will be shocked if she remains inside Mac's place even if she can do an important job by remaining there. I look for her to go out into the battle, the trailer shows her doing that. Though I have real problems with how that is shown unless she gets a instant healing somewhere. She came up from a squat to activate that rocket launcher, not a wiggle, wobble, or sign of pain, if you've ever suffered even a minor knee problem you know how hard it is to do that... Yes, take the trailer with a grain of salt, but evidently she does leave the bar to join the fight, whether that is wise or not, we will have to see in the book.
Oh, and the Carpenters are perfectly safe, Harry states that early in Peace Talks. They are safe from all supernatural threats, and thanks to Molly, mortal as well.. And none of that explains Murphy not being there for Harry at Christmas, especially if she knows how down he is emotionally. Not if she still loves him in any way.
She just destroyed Chicago with a nuclear bomb. She feels guilty and depressed and does not want to confront the carpenters and the angel squad. Harry needs to be with his daughter.
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It has to be the owner of the building that activates the Placard, but kill them and the Placard is deactivated. Mundane force can still be used, so Harry whilst protecting Murphy from Supernatural harm is relying on Murphy to protect Mac (and those sheltering in the bar) from mundane force, no one better than that, and if it is a trap, for Ethnui she and the P60 is the metal teeth of the trap.
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It has to be the owner of the building that activates the Placard, but kill them and the Placard is deactivated. Mundane force can still be used, so Harry whilst protecting Murphy from Supernatural harm is relying on Murphy to protect Mac (and those sheltering in the bar) from mundane force, no one better than that, and if it is a trap, for Ethnui she and the P60 is the metal teeth of the trap.
If that is true, it would be nice if she was in on it.. Doesn't sound like she is.
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If push comes to shove, Harry can give evidence of the events leading up to Harvey’s death and point the finger at Tessa, in the wake of Battle Ground, a Denarian culprit will be believable, when before it was not, remember Tilly has a minor practitioners gift, he knows when someone is lying or not. Harry can tell him the truth, be believed and not be institutionalised.
Are you familiar with felony murder? Because Harry's guilty of it in the death of Harvey and the security guard. He also burgled a bank, probably.
Jim has either set her up to find her new click and return in the future with new friends to help in the BAT, or he is setting her up to go in a blaze of glory and gore. Which would be perfect for MM, a story about how much his decisions changed the world, for good and bad.
This or a pretty close approximation of it.
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I think you will find that Harry was not part of a common purpose with regard to Harvey, indeed he was going all out to save him.
As regards the bank robbery, there was no intention to steal anything from within the Bank, there was some damage to the premises, but the owner is not eager to press charges, and indeed might be considered to be a conspirator.
The Bank Guard, again it may be considered that again this was not part of a common purpose, the other guards can testify that they were indeed moved to prevent their death or injury. Again their employer is not eager to see charges pressed, and again might be considered a conspirator.
This is why I believe Rudy isn’t working for Marcone, the evidence that Rudy has is circumstantial obtained from Traffic cameras. I bet the guards are saying that the perpetrators were all men of average height and nondescript appearance (which actually fits Grey and Nicky), all the internal cameras ceased to work, and there is evidence that Harvey was alive during the robbery, as he quite clearly accessed the retinal scanner during the robbery. If you can’t connect Harry to the robbery, it makes it difficult to pin Harvey’s death on Harry.
Someone is trying to find out what was stolen from Marcone’s bank and how it connects to Nicky’s public losses. This was in in Harry’s city, Marcone’s security is White Council proof, so the White Council resorted to money, bribing Rudy.
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Are you familiar with felony murder? Because Harry's guilty of it in the death of Harvey and the security guard. He also burgled a bank, probably.
Harry didn't murder Harvey, or the security guard, but he was on scene. "Probably" isn't proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
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I think you will find that Harry was not part of a common purpose with regard to Harvey, indeed he was going all out to save him.
In 1973, the Illinois Supreme Court went with the proximate cause theory of liability for felony murder. Trying to stop the crime, one cop shot another in the back. The defendant was found guilty.
The bank job was the cause in fact for Harvey's death. Proximate cause is arguable. Therefore Harry's guilt under a felony murder theory of liability is arguable in that case. If I was trying to prosecute Harry, I'd argue the precedent is applicable because Tessa killed Harvey trying to stop the crime. If I was defending Harry, I'd try to distinguish the case because Tessa intended for Harvey to die whereas the cop accidentally killed the other cop.
That's all assuming the 1973 case is good law. I'm not going to shepardize it. I don't have a LexisNexis subscription.
Based on the facts, it's arguable whether Harry is criminally liable for the death of Harvey. I think the answer is probably yes.
The bank guard is a different story. Harry's guilty.
As regards the bank robbery, there was no intention to steal anything from within the Bank.
I cut the quote there because I don't see how any of that is legally relevant. (I also don't think that Marcone hired Rudolph, so I'm not arguing with you there).
A death resulting from a act while "he or she is attempting or committing a forcible felony" is guilty of murder."Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
Emphasis added.Burglary.
(a) A person commits burglary when without authority he or she knowingly enters or without authority remains within a building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with intent to commit therein a felony or theft.
Emphasis added.
Harry burgled the bank. He intended to kidnap the guards, maybe it was an aggravated kidnapping, therein. He intended to burgle Hades vault from the vault (good luck arguing that one to a jury).
Harry kidnapped guards.
Harry assaulted the guards with fireworks. Almost certainly assault with a deadly weapon.
His fireworks use could have been considered arson.
They took the guards handcuffs. That's robbery.
There are plenty of forcible felonies for prosecutors to hang their hats on.
The Illinois Supreme Court has ruled that if it is "contemplated that violence might be necessary to enable the conspirators to carry out their common purpose" then it's felony murder. Harry loaded the magazines. Harry knew he was working with sociopathic murderers. Harry knew how Marcone would respond based on what Justine observed in Even Hand. Harry knew he was going to use violence. Use of violence was more than complicated. Harry meets this requirement.
I have no question that Harry is guilty of felony murder in regards to the bank guard.
Harry didn't murder Harvey, or the security guard, but he was on scene. "Probably" isn't proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
So you are unfamiliar with felony murder.
I said probably because I hadn't looked up the burglary statute. I was fairly certain Harry had committed burglary without having looked it up. Turns out I was right. It's not a question of fact. It's a question of law.
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Unfortunately, yeah, Harry is guilty of felony-rule murder with respect to the security guard.
There probably isn't enough evidence to convict him of it, but he can't just tell Tilly everything and get out of it. He was indeed part of a bunch of felonies -- trespassing, breaking and entering, kidnapping, etc. And the death of a guard was a foreseeable consequence.
Of course, Harry's been committing actual crimes throughout the series. In Storm Front, *we* understand his violent assault on Marcone's restaurant -- in front of dozens of innocent bystander witnesses -- but there's no *legal* justification for it.
And it just gets worse from there. Imagine if there were evidence that he set the fire at Bianca's in Grave Peril. In Dead Beat, he commits grand theft dinosaur.
Working on a bank heist with legitimately evil folks... there's a reason Harry balked at that.
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Working on a bank heist with legitimately evil folks.
I 100% agree with everything you said but this. Generally yes, but given the circumstances of the story, I'd more say fraught with moral peril. I don't think what Harry, Murphy, and Michael did was evil. I think there were moral justifications. It was an inherently dangerous enterprise that was very likely to cause serious harm to innocent bystanders. And it did.
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I 100% agree with everything you said but this. Generally yes, but given the circumstances of the story, I'd more say fraught with moral peril. I don't think what Harry, Murphy, and Michael did was evil. I think there were moral justifications. It was an inherently dangerous enterprise that was very likely to cause serious harm to innocent bystanders. And it did.
Good and evil is not the same as lawful and unlawful.
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“Without authority”, this was a set up masterminded by Marcone and Mab. Marcone was the owner of the and Harry therefore had authority to be there, no forcible felony burglary, and no intent to commit a burglary or theft within the vault. If they had stolen some of Ferrovax’s stuff in his sub vault yes, but they didn’t.
Harvey wasn’t a kidnapping by Harry, he used neither threat nor physical force, Harvey offered no resistance after Harry interposed himself between Harvey and Tessa’s Goons gunfire. No forcible kidnapping of Harvey, no murder charge against Harry. If Harvey hadn’t relented and Harry had to knock out Harvey to spirit him away then yes that would have been forcible kidnapping.
At best Harry set off some fireworks, not a deadly weapon, is that a felony or misdemeanour.
Binders guys did use deadly weapons against the police, but they are not “people” , they are not capable of committing a crime.
The handcuffs were never stolen, they were in the custody of the guards at all times. The guards were confined to a controlled space but there was no criminal motive for their confinement (lawful authority to be in the vault) so they weren’t kidnapped either.
Tilley can tell if someone is lying, Harry can admit the truth to Tilley, because all he has done is let some fireworks off. Bad Harry. I suspect Jim had this in mind when he created Tilley as a character.
Deidre Killed the guard, but only she is responsible, and she died by misadventure case closed.
Harvey was murdered by Tessa who is still at large, and the best person who can help track her down and bring her to justice is Harry.
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“Without authority”, this was a set up masterminded by Marcone and Mab. Marcone was the owner of the and Harry therefore had authority to be there, no forcible felony burglary, and no intent to commit a burglary or theft within the vault. If they had stolen some of Ferrovax’s stuff in his sub vault yes, but they didn’t.
Harvey wasn’t a kidnapping by Harry, he used neither threat nor physical force, Harvey offered no resistance after Harry interposed himself between Harvey and Tessa’s Goons gunfire. No forcible kidnapping of Harvey, no murder charge against Harry. If Harvey hadn’t relented and Harry had to knock out Harvey to spirit him away then yes that would have been forcible kidnapping.
At best Harry set off some fireworks, not a deadly weapon, is that a felony or misdemeanour.
Binders guys did use deadly weapons against the police, but they are not “people” , they are not capable of committing a crime.
The handcuffs were never stolen, they were in the custody of the guards at all times. The guards were confined to a controlled space but there was no criminal motive for their confinement (lawful authority to be in the vault) so they weren’t kidnapped either.
Tilley can tell if someone is lying, Harry can admit the truth to Tilley, because all he has done is let some fireworks off. Bad Harry. I suspect Jim had this in mind when he created Tilley as a character.
Deidre Killed the guard, but only she is responsible, and she died by misadventure case closed.
Harvey was murdered by Tessa who is still at large, and the best person who can help track her down and bring her to justice is Harry.
I really think you don't know the point of felony murder; it took me a few years to get the hang of it (while still considering its full application silly), but still.
Harry, Deirdre, and gang together conspired to break into Marcone's vault. As far as they knew they were committing burglary, and Harry definitely assaulted guards with fireworks. In the course of the burglary/assault, a guard was murdered. That, and that alone, is enough to confirm felony murder for all the conspirators in the burglary/assault.
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They had lawful authority, they just didn’t know they had, and that destroys any case against Harry unless Marcone denies that they had that authority, which would put him in Mab’s bad books, he organised this with her to get revenge over Nicodemus. It wasn’t a bank job, it was a con job. Here’s a hint look at what Skin Game is slang for, otherwise under your interpretation that novel is called Bank Bust.
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They had lawful authority, they just didn’t know they had, and that destroys any case against Harry unless Marcone denies that they had that authority, which would put him in Mab’s bad books, he organised this with her to get revenge over Nicodemus. It wasn’t a bank job, it was a con job. Here’s a hint look at what Skin Game is slang for, otherwise under your interpretation that novel is called Bank Bust.
Marcone does not have the right to approve Harry assaulting anyone.
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Marcone can and did give lawful authority for the group to be in the bank vault, everything that flows out of that is the individual responsibility of the participants. This group is then set upon by guards, who were unaware that they had lawful authority to be there.
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Good and evil is not the same as lawful and unlawful.
I agree with this so much. (I'm the one saying Harry is guilty of murder, but what he did wasn't evil; I think what he did was good). I noticed years ago a trend to equate the two in political and/or current event debates. Just no.
“Without authority”, this was a set up masterminded by Marcone and Mab. Marcone was the owner of the.
This is an argument that Marcone had no right of self defense. Not that Harry had permission to be there. If he had permission to be there, then he couldn't have entered Hades. The way wouldn't have lead to Hades.
no intent to commit a burglary or theft within the vault. If they had stolen some of Ferrovax’s stuff in his sub vault yes, but they didn’t.
Murphy asked Harry if he wanted her to go with him to rob a Greek god. He responded "Burgle, technically." Harry intended to commit the forcible felony of burglary in Marcone's bank.
Harvey wasn’t a kidnapping by Harry, he used neither threat nor physical force, Harvey offered no resistance after Harry interposed himself between Harvey and Tessa’s Goons gunfire. No forcible kidnapping of Harvey, no murder charge against Harry. If Harvey hadn’t relented and Harry had to knock out Harvey to spirit him away then yes that would have been forcible kidnapping.
That's not what I said. I said Harvey died because of Harry's felonious activity. Felony murder, generally, is the legal rule that one meets the mens rea requirement for murder when one's actions cause another's death. I also said there is specific case law in Illinois that supports the application of the felony murder principle to Harvey's death.
At best Harry set off some fireworks, not a deadly weapon, is that a felony or misdemeanour.
I know of a case where a woman was charged with adw for hitting someone with a shoe. Lot's of things can be considered deadly weapons. See generally https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kby5pn/a-brief-history-of-the-legal-definition-of-deadly-weapon (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kby5pn/a-brief-history-of-the-legal-definition-of-deadly-weapon). The case of pepper spray as a deadly weapon is particularly apropos.
Binders guys did use deadly weapons against the police, but they are not “people” , they are not capable of committing a crime.
Is it likely that someone was going to be killed over the course of the heist? If the answer is yes, then felony murder applies in Illinois. (Or at least that element of it was).
The handcuffs were never stolen, they were in the custody of the guards at all times.
I can't tell if you're joking or not. If you're not, tell it to the judge.
The guards were confined to a controlled space but there was no criminal motive for their confinement (lawful authority to be in the vault) so they weren’t kidnapped either.
Assuming without conceding that they were lawfully present because Marcone consented to their presence, the guards didn't consent to their confinement. Marcone can no more consent to the guards confinement than he can give consent for his prostitutes to have sex with Johns.
Tilley can tell if someone is lying, Harry can admit the truth to Tilley, because all he has done is let some fireworks off. Bad Harry. I suspect Jim had this in mind when he created Tilley as a character.
Harry committed a laundry list of crimes. Telling Tilley the truth carries with it great risk of being charged and convicted of those crimes.
[1]Deidre Killed the guard, but [2]only she is responsible.
2. Not legally.
Harvey was murdered by Tessa who is still at large, and the best person who can help track her down and bring her to justice is Harry.
This is true. It also doesn't absolve Harry of any legal liability. It's not relevant to the laws of Illinois. It could be relevant to their enforcement.
Putting the jurisdictional arguments of crimes committed in the Nevernever aside for a moment, Harry would also be criminally culpable for the deaths of Deirdre and Ascher.
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Murphy asked Harry if he wanted her to go with him to rob a Greek god. He responded "Burgle, technically." Harry intended to commit the forcible felony of burglary in Marcone's bank.
Not really, he didn't take anything from Marcone's bank, it was just the path he had to go through to get to the vault that belonged to Hades.
Assuming without conceding that they were lawfully present because Marcone consented to their presence, the guards didn't consent to their confinement. Marcone can no more consent to the guards confinement than he can give consent for his prostitutes to have sex with Johns.
Which he most likely can and does.
This was never about what Harry did or didn't do, he was being used by Mab, Marcone, and Hades to get revenge on Nic.. The whole robbery happened because it was allowed to happen, so no real robbery. In the course of events one of Marcone's guards was killed by one of Nic's people.. Marcone
accepted the weregild, he and Harry were even. Perhaps he wants a little more revenge so he is siccing Rudolph on Murphy because Harry did get away with some serious loot, i.e. weapons of mass destruction.. Which if Hades is right, could only be done by someone clever enough and strong enough to use them.
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Nope, you are having to make to many reaches to get to where you need to be, and ignore Marcone’s role in the proceedings, without that you would have an argument if you could overcome the other issues. You couldn’t build a case on this even with Harry’s confession.
The deaths of Deidre and Ascher occurred out of US Jurisdiction, and it is a matter for the relevant sovereign government i.e. Hades, to deal with their deaths. Not the CPD or the FBI, there is no valid principle of extra-territorially, the deaths simply did not occur in the US jurisdiction, and neither was a US citizen, nor a US Resident. Deidre is older than the US, Ascher is Australian. Neither body is in the US.
Goodness, next thing you will be accusing Harry of the homicide of Blood on his Soul, despite him (a) not being human, or (b) he appears to have risen from the dead (so only attempted murder then).
I would point out that Rudy doesn’t appear to have any DNA evidence which would place Harry in the Vault and he should have left some, which along with the shed Giant Praying Mantisoid DNA and Genowskwa DNA would indicate Marcone got their first. There is no corroboration of Harry ‘s Confession.
Of course the way out of this is to ask Michael Carpenter to swear on a Bible in Court, as under your premise he is as guilty as Harry, but rarely those who swear “by almighty god” are actually on speaking terms with HIM. What’s the odds jury selection REALLY breaks Harry and Michaels way?.
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he didn't take anything from Marcone's bank
You don't know what burglary is.
Which he most likely can and does.
Not legally.
This was never about what Harry did or didn't do, he was being used by Mab, Marcone, and Hades to get revenge on Nic.. The whole robbery happened because it was allowed to happen, so no real robbery. In the course of events one of Marcone's guards was killed by one of Nic's people.. Marcone
accepted the weregild, he and Harry were even. Perhaps he wants a little more revenge so he is siccing Rudolph on Murphy because Harry did get away with some serious loot, i.e. weapons of mass destruction.. Which if Hades is right, could only be done by someone clever enough and strong enough to use them.
"This" is about whether or not Harry would be confessing to crimes in telling Tilly what went on in SK.
Nope, you are having to make to many reaches to get to where you need to be, and ignore Marcone’s role in the proceedings.
Nope, you're exaggerating his proceedings and ignoring the text. Harry said it wouldn't work if they had permission to be there. They didn't have permission to detain or assault the guards. That's enough.
The deaths of Deidre and Ascher occurred out of US Jurisdiction, and it is a matter for the relevant sovereign government i.e. Hades, to deal with their deaths. Not the CPD or the FBI, there is no valid principle of extra-territorially, the deaths simply did not occur in the US jurisdiction, and neither was a US citizen, nor a US Resident. Deidre is older than the US, Ascher is Australian. Neither body is in the US.
I have no idea how courts in Illinois, or anywhere, would handle the Nevernever. I do recall a case where someone sued Satan. The only problem was they couldn't get service on the guy.
Goodness, next thing you will be accusing Harry of the homicide of Blood on his Soul, despite him (a) not being human, or (b) he appears to have risen from the dead (so only attempted murder then).
He may legally be a human being. They can definitely produce offspring with humans. We don't know if those offspring are viable, so we don't know if they meet the scientific definition of the same species. The grindelkin seem to require different circumstances to reproduce, so who knows.
I would point out that Rudy doesn’t appear to have any DNA evidence which would place Harry in the Vault and he should have left some, which along with the shed Giant Praying Mantisoid DNA and Genowskwa DNA would indicate Marcone got their first. There is no corroboration of Harry ‘s Confession.
There's enough corroboration for Rudy to show up and ask questions. There's enough corroboration to prove a crime happened. What with the shoot out, witnesses, and bodies. (It does seem the witnesses who could id Harry aren't talking). Corroboration of a crime is what's needed to convict someone solely on a confession.
Of course the way out of this is to ask Michael Carpenter to swear on a Bible in Court, as under your premise he is as guilty as Harry, but rarely those who swear “by almighty god” are actually on speaking terms with HIM.
Michael has a 5th Amendment right against self incrimination, so he would have to be given an immunity deal before he could be required to testify. I doubt Michael's going to volunteer to testify against Harry.
What’s the odds jury selection REALLY breaks Harry and Michaels way?.
As pointed out above, it'd just be Harry. But my point isn't about Harry getting convicted. It's that Harry did commit several felonies and therefore shouldn't tell a law enforcement officer that he did.
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There's enough corroboration for Rudy to show up and ask questions. There's enough corroboration to prove a crime happened. What with the shoot out, witnesses, and bodies. (It does seem the witnesses who could id Harry aren't talking). Corroboration of a crime is what's needed to convict someone solely on a confession.
You forget about the "clean up crew." I seem to remember Harry or someone commenting on the efficient clean up crew either Binder or Nic had to "clean up" the bodies and such, leaving no evidence.
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The place was swamped with cops when Harry left. There's going to be evidence of a crime. Rudolph is investigating something.
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The place was swamped with cops when Harry left. There's going to be evidence of a crime. Rudolph is investigating something.
Was it? Rudolph is beholding to Marcone, they'd find nothing unless Marcone wanted them to.. It's all tied to the final scene when Harry and Molly confront Mab and Marcone about them setting him up so Marcone could get his revenge.. Marcone didn't like that so Rudolph is putting some heat on.
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Was it?
Yes. Harry had to sneak past them. It's in the book.
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Was it? Rudolph is beholding to Marcone, they'd find nothing unless Marcone wanted them to.. It's all tied to the final scene when Harry and Molly confront Mab and Marcone about them setting him up so Marcone could get his revenge.. Marcone didn't like that so Rudolph is putting some heat on.
I don’t think Rudolph is in Marcone pocket. Marcone has no interest in stirring up trouble with Harry at this moment. The reds owned Rudolph so if any of their allies were aware of that they could have taken him over.
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I don’t think Rudolph is in Marcone pocket. Marcone has no interest in stirring up trouble with Harry at this moment. The reds owned Rudolph so if any of their allies were aware of that they could have taken him over.
I think Marcone may have wanted to make Harry sweat just a bit, that final scene in Skin Game between them pissed him off, but he doesn't want to alienate Mab either. That is why the investigation went through internal affairs which was weird because neither Murphy nor Harry have been associated with the police force for some time, and not at all when Skin Game went down.
Remember at the time when Rudolph showed up on Murphy's doorstep, Marcone had no clue that the s- -t was about to hit the fan and the world was going to go to hell in a hand basket, he needs Harry now.
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I think Marcone may have wanted to make Harry sweat just a bit, that final scene in Skin Game between them pissed him off, but he doesn't want to alienate Mab either. That is why the investigation went through internal affairs which was weird because neither Murphy nor Harry have been associated with the police force for some time, and not at all when Skin Game went down.
Remember at the time when Rudolph showed up on Murphy's doorstep, Marcone had no clue that the s- -t was about to hit the fan and the world was going to go to hell in a hand basket, he needs Harry now.
But Marcone was organizing the talks and it was very important for him to make them go smoothly. He had absolute no interest in stirring up trouble.
He has a very good idea about Harry can react. The timing is just not right.
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It’s clear that Rudy is a freelancer, Marcone won’t touch him and doesn’t need him, the Reds purchased him but Harry ended that source of revenue. He was anybodies who needed info in relation to Chicago, but this is way beyond slipping someone a few files, the only people with a ongoing beef against Harry is the White Council who are trying to oust him. The Fomor are about to attack and they were allies of the Reds. They aren’t concerned with getting Harry prosecuted, they are seeking to level the City, Harry, CPD and Rudy and all.
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I don’t think Rudolph is in Marcone pocket. Marcone has no interest in stirring up trouble with Harry at this moment. The reds owned Rudolph so if any of their allies were aware of that they could have taken him over.
Agreed. Why would Marcone need Harry out of the way right now? As an Accorded Baron of Chicago, Harry is obliged to support Marcone at the peace talks... so Marcone benefits from Harry being free to act on his behalf. Marcone's getting everything he wants, the last thing he needs is to give Harry a reason to act against him. If Harry was an obstacle to some future plan, removing him would make sense. But from what we know now, that doesn't seem to be the case.
I don't doubt somebody's putting pressure on Rudolph, but Marcone's the least likely suspect. Allies of the Reds, Mavra (who's resorted to blackmail before, and is mentioned in Peace Talks), Black Council members, or Nicodemus are all possibilities (though if it's Nicodemus, I don't think we'll see a resolution in Battle Ground.)
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For starters, Marcone knows that Harry won't act against him as long as Mab is his boss. However
that doesn't mean he wouldn't like for him to sweat a bit, just to prove he can.
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It makes no sense for Marcone to have Rudolph harass Harry or Murphy. I think it is the Fomor or one of their allies. It may be the WC Vamps. A rival faction of Lara's. Rudolph may be mind wammied by a WC vamp like the female lawyer was earlier.
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It makes no sense for Marcone to have Rudolph harass Harry or Murphy. I think it is the Fomor or one of their allies. It may be the WC Vamps. A rival faction of Lara's. Rudolph may be mind wammied by a WC vamp like the female lawyer was earlier.
If you ask me that chapter didn't make sense, unless something comes out of it either in the end of Battleground or in the next book. Harry does bring up the possibility that Marcone's fingerprints are on it. What really makes no sense is it is being done by Internal Affairs, at the time of Skin Game both Harry and Murphy had given up any connection to the police force. That is why is sounds like harassment. Also at the end of Skin Game Harry and Marcone were more or less threatening one another.. Though it was tempered by the presence of Mab. She wasn't happy with her Knight either for doing that, so she might have also sanctioned it just as another way of putting Harry in his place.
It might even be connected to her favor to Lara in some way. Or it could be a Malvora getting back at him for Jury Duty.
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Or it could be a Malvora getting back at him for Jury Duty.
Oooooh, I hadn't thought of this... but I like it! The White Court is all about manipulation through proxies. If the Malvoras found out Lara was going to use Harry as a tool, the logical counter is to use the cops to take Harry off the board. It fits.
The Fomor is another group I didn't think of, and they're a good option considering their desire to derail the peace talks. But I don't remember them using pressure tactics before. Don't they usually take more violent and direct action? (I think I need to do some rereading.)
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As I said, Rudy is doing it because he is the last dented can of beans on the shelf, an obscure brand in a foreign language, label faded, can starting to rust and past its sell by date. Marcone has all the beans he needs, a warehouse full, respected brands and an sell by date years in the future.
Rudy is Hobson’s Choice, which I think why he is now working for the Merlin faction to dig dirt on Harry. Even the Black Council have more nous than to employ Rudy, he is ineffective and the Fomor don’t care about mortal authorities. Getting Harry into trouble with the mortal authorities is a very Merlin move, designed to get evidence on Harry’s expulsion, AND find out what he did with Nicky which worked out so badly for Nicky.
Harry must have been very difficult to spy on magically, the Swartalves has good security countermeasures, and the wizard who tried to use magic to spy on Harry at the Carpenter House still smells colours and tastes music. Fortunately he (mostly) regained control over his bowels.
Again I don’t think it is Malvora, Lara would have been on the lookout for that, and it requires someone to know where to look into Harry’s recent past, i.e. Nicky’s worst day in two millennia to point Rudy at the problem, not sure the Malvora would be interested especially in this but the White Council would, Nicky was a former member of the Accords, who quit following events of Small Favour which involved Senior Wardens.
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While it makes sense for Marcone to stick it to Harry, I think Marcone is the least likely candidate. Why know in the middle of his big peace conference? The Fomor make sense because they could be trying to sandbag the guy who always bumps the elbow of they guy juggling TNT. The White Council makes sense for the reasons Conspiracy Theorist has laid out, but it sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me. The Malvora make sense because they have a grudge against Harry, and something is going on with the White Court. There's always the nebulous "them" that Harry has named the Black Council. Right now, that's who has my vote but not my bet because I don't think we have enough information to make a good guess.
Jim could pretty easily make any of them work with just a paragraph or two of explanation.
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While it makes sense for Marcone to stick it to Harry, I think Marcone is the least likely candidate. Why know in the middle of his big peace conference? The Fomor make sense because they could be trying to sandbag the guy who always bumps the elbow of they guy juggling TNT. The White Council makes sense for the reasons Conspiracy Theorist has laid out, but it sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me. The Malvora make sense because they have a grudge against Harry, and something is going on with the White Court. There's always the nebulous "them" that Harry has named the Black Council. Right now, that's who has my vote but not my bet because I don't think we have enough information to make a good guess.
Jim could pretty easily make any of them work with just a paragraph or two of explanation.
Why not now in the middle of the Peace Talks? Marcone doesn't expect it to blow up now, from his stand point it could be just an FYI to Harry and Murphy not to interfere in any future deals that may come his way from a successful conference.
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Why not now in the middle of the Peace Talks? Marcone doesn't expect it to blow up now, from his stand point it could be just an FYI to Harry and Murphy not to interfere in any future deals that may come his way from a successful conference.
Except he knows Harry and he knows that such behavior would make Harry’s interference more likely and not less.
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Except he knows Harry and he knows that such behavior would make Harry’s interference more likely and not less.
He also knows that Mab wouldn't allow any interference in the Talks. I also doubt that Harry would interfere in the Talks without good reason, and there is nothing in that harassment that would warrant him interfering in the talks, that is for later.
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Why not now in the middle of the Peace Talks?
Because Marcone isn't an idiot. Why complicate something that's going to be complicated and delicate anyway?
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Because Marcone isn't an idiot. Why complicate something that's going to be complicated and delicate anyway?
Not if he didn't think it would interfere with the talks. Harry wasn't going to take part in them, and neither was Murphy, however it would give him leverage down the road. I am not saying he was behind it, but it isn't impossible either..
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I agree it's not impossible. I'm saying Marcone is too smart to do it during the talks because he's smart enough to know you don't add factors to a delicate situation. It's stupid. He can't know it won't interfere with the talks. It would be a departure from his established character.
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I agree it's not impossible. I'm saying Marcone is too smart to do it during the talks because he's smart enough to know you don't add factors to a delicate situation. It's stupid. He can't know it won't interfere with the talks. It would be a departure from his established character.
Or is it? Harry and Murphy agree that Rudy is in Marcone's pay. Depending on how the talks went, Marcone may have figured that having a little information to blackmail with in his back pocket wouldn't hurt if he felt he didn't get all he wanted from the talks.
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I think the chances of Marcone being behind this are non-existent. It's simply not his style. Gathering this type of intelligence for later leverage would be his style, but tipping off Harry and Murphy ahead of time by letting them know he's on to them? Sloppy. Further, he's demonstrated countless times that he would not permit this type of sloppiness from his underlings.
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And at the same time keep Rudy around in case you need a handy fall guy(oh that would make a good title for the wrestling book “Fall Guys”, very noir and pun laden) on the off chance you need to show an officer on the take etc without exposing you own people. Rudy has too big a house, too nice a car, too expensive a suit for his salary, those on the take from Marcone are probably instructed on how to hide their largesse. Marcone’s guys own a reasonable house in a so so neighbourhood, drive a 2 year old car and but a good but off the peg suit, and have a very big bank account squirrelled away for their retirement.
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Rudolph is in someone's pocket, sure. But Marcone is hardly the only person with money and influence, and he isn't going to benefit the most (if much at all) from the destruction of the Peace Talks he helped arrange and host.
The most obvious player is the White Court. They have much to gain from Harry being distracted and Lara has influence that rivals if not outstrips Marcone in the mortal world, and much more on the side of the establishment. See Jury Duty and that helps show some of it.
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It might be, but another way of looking at it might be one of setting up the psyche to see how far one can fall before doing something dangerous and completely out of range and abilities. She has fallen to a point so low from where she was in the beginning and Harry just pushed her down even further by telling her to stay put. Yes it's to defend the people of Chicago while Harry goes to defend the city of Chicago, but it's not where she thinks she should be.
Jim has either set her up to find her new click and return in the future with new friends to help in the BAT, or he is setting her up to go in a blaze of glory and gore. Which would be perfect for MM, a story about how much his decisions changed the world, for good and bad.
And no, no power ups for Murphy. Last I heard, Jim said no power ups for her unless it's a bigger gun. So no return as an avenging angel or a new hire for Monoc security. It would cheapen her character.
I have to amend my comment about Murphy becoming a part of Monoc securities. She actually could and probably will, but not the way fans think and what some of us think was foreshadowed.
I remember a time when people went crazy with the idea of her becoming a Valkyrie. Jim then said no powerups for her. If she needs a powerup, she gets a bigger gun.
Yeah, just think about it. She's been training with the warriors up until she got hurt, she's been referred to as a warrior before but Lara's new security consultant called her one but it felt like there was some weight behind it, and the Valkyrie knows when she's slated to die.
Each thing individually means nothing, but putting them together...
I wonder if Murphy dies earlier in the book, Harry doesn't know about it, suddenly Murphy is back with her motorcycle and rocket launcher and we are left to wonder how. All the while she took the offer to be one of the Viking warriors. Thus not getting a powerup, but putting her in a statis to help with an army come the BAT, all while pushing her away from Harry like Jim has been doing to all of Harry's allies.
It would work with what we saw in the trailer with Murphy and would kinda make sense to why Jim gave Harry his WCourt protection back so quickly after they started dating.
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I have to amend my comment about Murphy becoming a part of Monoc securities. She actually could and probably will, but not the way fans think and what some of us think was foreshadowed.
I remember a time when people went crazy with the idea of her becoming a Valkyrie. Jim then said no powerups for her. If she needs a powerup, she gets a bigger gun.
Yeah, just think about it. She's been training with the warriors up until she got hurt, she's been referred to as a warrior before but Lara's new security consultant called her one but it felt like there was some weight behind it, and the Valkyrie knows when she's slated to die.
Each thing individually means nothing, but putting them together...
I wonder if Murphy dies earlier in the book, Harry doesn't know about it, suddenly Murphy is back with her motorcycle and rocket launcher and we are left to wonder how. All the while she took the offer to be one of the Viking warriors. Thus not getting a powerup, but putting her in a statis to help with an army come the BAT, all while pushing her away from Harry like Jim has been doing to all of Harry's allies.
It would work with what we saw in the trailer with Murphy and would kinda make sense to why Jim gave Harry his WCourt protection back so quickly after they started dating.
Yes, that would be about the only way the trailer works, but at the same time would the turn around be that fast? Also most of the Valkyrie will be pretty busy on the battlefield. Also becoming a Valkyrie would be a power up for her. What does the true love protection have to do with any of this? It didn't save Susan from becoming a half-vamp, from turning, or from getting her throat cut by her true love.
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Rudolph is in someone's pocket, sure. But Marcone is hardly the only person with money and influence, and he isn't going to benefit the most (if much at all) from the destruction of the Peace Talks he helped arrange and host.
Here’s a thought what if Rudolph is in everyone’s pocket except Marcone’s ? He could have been taking money from the White Court, the White Council, the swartalves etc he strikes me as someone who would do that, and Battle Ground may be where they all compare notes and get very angry at Rudolph when they all realise he has been selling information about them all to each other.
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Yes, that would be about the only way the trailer works, but at the same time would the turn around be that fast? Also most of the Valkyrie will be pretty busy on the battlefield. Also becoming a Valkyrie would be a power up for her. What does the true love protection have to do with any of this? It didn't save Susan from becoming a half-vamp, from turning, or from getting her throat cut by her true love.
Not a Valkyrie, just one of the Warriors. She already turned down a Valkyrie job. And my thought process was that if she died, she was reborn in healed ready to fight in this all out battle.
I've read a couple other series where it was based on Vikings and the character left their body after they died and was reborn in a new better body.
As for the true love thing, that was me just spouting. I just felt it awfully fast for Jim to point that out, not for it to have happened. Kinda felt like Jim is pointing things like that out because something is going to happen between them and Jim wants to let the fans know where they stand. That's all. Sorry for confusing you.
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As for the true love thing, that was me just spouting. I just felt it awfully fast for Jim to point that out, not for it to have happened. Kinda felt like Jim is pointing things like that out because something is going to happen between them and Jim wants to let the fans know where they stand. That's all. Sorry for confusing you.
I don't think did that fast because we've know at least how Murphy feels since Nic beat the crap out of her in Skin Game.
Not a Valkyrie, just one of the Warriors. She already turned down a Valkyrie job. And my thought process was that if she died, she was reborn in healed ready to fight in this all out battle.
I've read a couple other series where it was based on Vikings and the character left their body after they died and was reborn in a new better body.
I don't know if it is that instant though. Now the trailer could be misleading.
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Or is it? Harry and Murphy agree that Rudy is in Marcone's pay. Depending on how the talks went, Marcone may have figured that having a little information to blackmail with in his back pocket wouldn't hurt if he felt he didn't get all he wanted from the talks.
It only makes sense if Marcone has no idea who he's dealing with. He knows Harry doesn't respond well to threats.
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I don't think did that fast because we've know at least how Murphy feels since Nic beat the crap out of her in Skin Game.
I don't know if it is that instant though. Now the trailer could be misleading.
No, no, no, sorry. That's the problem with text only communication. Say something one way, thinking it's clear and it's not.
I'm not saying that obtained it fast. After everything they went through the past couple books, it's understandable. No, what I was saying is that Jim made a point of showing it off. Like something is going to happen. He doesn't show things off to just show off. Well, technically he does, but he uses it for a reason. And he usually doesn't fan service. And if he doesn't use the show off, then this will be a fan service.
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No, no, no, sorry. That's the problem with text only communication. Say something one way, thinking it's clear and it's not.
I'm not saying that obtained it fast. After everything they went through the past couple books, it's understandable. No, what I was saying is that Jim made a point of showing it off. Like something is going to happen. He doesn't show things off to just show off. Well, technically he does, but he uses it for a reason. And he usually doesn't fan service. And if he doesn't use the show off, then this will be a fan service.
You could be right, but Vadderung and his army are helping in the defense of the city. We've known that both Marcone and Lara are chummy with the Valkyrie, so that might not mean anything. Very heavy is the foreshadowing that Murphy is going to bite the dust in this one. Bringing her back as a mini-berserker in Vadderung's army might cheapen the character and the sacrifice,
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You could be right, but Vadderung and his army are helping in the defense of the city. We've known that both Marcone and Lara are chummy with the Valkyrie, so that might not mean anything. Very heavy is the foreshadowing that Murphy is going to bite the dust in this one. Bringing her back as a mini-berserker in Vadderung's army might cheapen the character and the sacrifice,
She doesn't have to be a berserker, she can be just as she is. Harry or Eb told the other Wardens on the first day of the PT that some of the Vikings were berserker's, didn't say all.
But I do agree that her coming back anymore than what she was healthy would cheapen the character. I could see it done in a way because of how far she has fallen, but I has to be done right.
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She doesn't have to be a berserker, she can be just as she is. Harry or Eb told the other Wardens on the first day of the PT that some of the Vikings were berserker's, didn't say all.
But I do agree that her coming back anymore than what she was healthy would cheapen the character. I could see it done in a way because of how far she has fallen, but I has to be done right.
I was being a little sarcastic about the berserker element, sorry about that. :-[ Today hasn't been the greatest day and the vision of Murphy foaming at the mouth wildly going after bad guys left, right, and center, seemed kind of funny.
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Murphy coming back in a better body as an einenjaren? You mean she gets to be 5 foot half an inch?
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Murphy coming back in a better body as an einenjaren? You mean she gets to be 5 foot half an inch?
Well, if she dies really heroically she might come back at five foot one inch! 8)