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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 05:28:05 PM

Title: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 05:28:05 PM
Full Members of the White, Red and Black Courts arent subject to policing by the White Council.
But I'm not shure about the fringe cases.


Who can/should get Membership?

Only Humans?
What about Changlings?
Red Court Infected?
etc.

On which groups does the Withe Council enforce the Laws of Magic?
Obviously on Human Wizards, Sorcerers, Minor Talents.
Changlings?

Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Saedar on April 13, 2010, 05:33:01 PM
For membership, I would say only full-fledged Wizard (or Wizard-potentials) are able to be members of the White Council. I say this because there are certain exams (left somewhat nebulous to us, thus far) about power and versatility that must be met. As for types of individuals... I guess it depends on if you consider Changelings and Red Court Infected to be mortal? Maybe?

As for enforcement, they expressly look over any type of Mortal magic. That said, and as was pointed out by Fred in another post, if they see something going on in violation of the Laws, Wardens may chop first and ask questions later.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: iago on April 13, 2010, 05:49:03 PM
Full wizards only. Anyone else gets "ally" status.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 07:05:08 PM
Full Wizard meaning Evocation and Thaumaturgic Powers?
Could be an Changeling. Its (almost?) an classic for an Wizard to get his magic from an "special" parent.

So an Changeling could be an member of the White Council (if he has full Wizardly Power)?

What if he is not an Member and violates one of the Laws, I think he gets the Lawbreaker Power...
Would the Warden execute him/her/it or would he fall under fairy law?

What if the Changeling doesnt have the Evocation and Thaumaturgic Powers, but only the Sponsored Magic.
Would that change anything about the answers?

Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on April 13, 2010, 07:13:10 PM
Full wizards being those who have been tested by a member of the council.  Apprentices are not considered full members (as far as having a say in things) until they have passed their tests.

The Wardens will lay the laws down on anyone they can (provided doing so doesn't interfere with the accords).  For instance in Turn Coat:
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Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 07:25:57 PM
Yeah but Binder is human.
There is no power block behind him.

Maybe I should rephrase my question.

Can nonhuman or parthumans or halfhumans try the test before the White Council for an full membership?

Quote
The Wardens will lay the laws down on anyone they can (provided doing so doesn't interfere with the accords). 

Goes reading the accords...

Ah, the second rephrased question is:
To which faction do Changelings count? Fairy (be it Winter or Sommer) or Human?
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: iago on April 13, 2010, 07:26:03 PM
Yeah. Don't talk power templates here. Talk what's established in the novels. Because that's what rules it here. :)
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on April 13, 2010, 07:30:35 PM
Changelings (afaik) don't belong to any side until they make the change.  Sadly this makes them fair game for anyone who wants to pick on them and gives them no protection whatsoever until they decide. 
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Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 07:48:16 PM
Quote from: SoulCatcher78 on April 13, 2010, 07:30:35 PM
Changelings (afaik) don't belong to any side until they make the change.  Sadly this makes them fair game for anyone who wants to pick on them and gives them no protection whatsoever until they decide. 
(click to show/hide)

Have to disagree here. They got picked upon by the Fairie side. Its not so clear, what would happen if someone other would pick upon changelings.
IMHO Changelings are especially usefull as long as they have not made any choice. Free will, but vulnerable to fairies.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 08:01:37 PM
Quote from: iago on April 13, 2010, 07:26:03 PM
Yeah. Don't talk power templates here. Talk what's established in the novels. Because that's what rules it here. :)

Well, in the novels only full humans are White Council wizards.
At least we have only seen full humans as White Council wizards.

That leaves still my second part of the question...

Do the fairies care if the White Council kills Changelings for Violations against the Laws of Magic.


Maybe I should have started two different threads?
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: srl51676 on April 13, 2010, 08:14:06 PM
According to Meryl in SK changelings are under the control of the Court of their fey parent until they choose to become pure mortals. This would mean that if tried by the WC and proved to be a changeling they should have the backing of the appropriate court and might therefore be ruled not under WC jurisdiction however this could also label them as non-human putting them outside its protection as well making them fair game to be killed by any means if they are a threat to the human population. Being a Changeling should not provide license to get around the 7 laws if it endangers the humans that the WC protects anything else would be an internal matter of the fey subject to the appropriate court. Also if the magic is sponsored it is subject to shutdown by the sponsor if the caster breaks any rules set by them.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 08:32:28 PM
Quote from: srl51676 on April 13, 2010, 08:14:06 PM
According to Meryl in SK changelings are under the control of the Court of their fey parent until they choose to become pure mortals.
Thanks!
Quote
This would mean that if tried by the WC and proved to be a changeling they should have the backing of the appropriate court and might therefore be ruled not under WC jurisdiction however this could also label them as non-human putting them outside its protection as well making them fair game to be killed by any means if they are a threat to the human population.
Where do you get that from?
Or are you talking about situation like Harry had with Bianca? An war declaration after the fact?

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Being a Changeling should not provide license to get around the 7 laws if it endangers the humans that the WC protects
Are we talking about the same White Council, if Harry didnt got lured into starting the war, the WC would have no problem with Red Vamp. eating humans (as long as they do it discreetly).

Quote
anything else would be an internal matter of the fey subject to the appropriate court. Also if the magic is sponsored it is subject to shutdown by the sponsor if the caster breaks any rules set by them.
That goes without saying, but I think someone like Mab or Titania would have other rules than those of the WC...

But thanks for the Meryl quote, I'll go from there:
As long as the Changeling didnt choose pure Mortal they are under the jurisdiction of the Fairies. If they break an Law of Magic they get the Lawbreaker "Power" and have to pay in Refresh.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: flymolo on April 13, 2010, 09:03:10 PM
This makes me want to play a Changeling cramming for the White council exams to have protection from Mab or some other scary fae.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: srl51676 on April 13, 2010, 10:08:44 PM
When Harry
(click to show/hide)
Lucio tells him that his duties are the same as what he has been doing all along just in a Grey cloak. The point of the 7 laws is to protect humanity from magic. Vamps who feed on humans open themselves up to retribution from the mortal community. The wolf feeds on the deer but can't sue if a buck kicks him in the head. The war started because Harry violated the terms of the Accords by breaking the rules of hospitality in Bianca's home.

To Quote the WC Wikipedia entry
"They primarily protect humanity from abuses of magic, but also shield this world from the Sidhe and other creatures that wish humanity harm."

So any changeling causing widespread harm to humans in general or attacks on WC members would be classified as a monstrous threat and/or a declaration of war by the Sidhe court responsible for them. 
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 14, 2010, 07:00:13 AM
Quote from: srl51676 on April 13, 2010, 10:08:44 PM
So any changeling causing widespread harm to humans in general or attacks on WC members would be classified as a monstrous threat and/or a declaration of war by the Sidhe court responsible for them. 

Quote
the WC would have no problem with Red Vamp. eating humans (as long as they do it discreetly).

I think we arent really disagreeing.

A Changeling on an murder spree or something similiar would be hunted down.
But if its something subtle/small scale. Where a human would be killed to be on the safe side, a Changeling would get free.

Otherwise the WC would have to declare war at least on all Vampire Courts.

Quote from: flymolo on April 13, 2010, 09:03:10 PM
This makes me want to play a Changeling cramming for the White council exams to have protection from Mab or some other scary fae.
But would he be allowed to take the tests?  ;)

Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 14, 2010, 07:10:23 AM
If they're, say, the child of a Troll and a Minor Practicioner and their magic is clearly human? I think the White Coucil would have to at least give them a chance. Particularly if they were to do the Council a favor or two...
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 14, 2010, 07:24:59 AM
And I was just now comming to the conclusion only full humans could be on the WC.

Was the Troll an example or would you rule otherwise if the Fae parent werent a lowly troll but an highly placed Sidhe?
What about an White Court virgin? I could see one being smuggled into the WCouncil. But if they knew the parents?

Would an Wizard lose his member card, if he got infected (not turned) by the Red Court?
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 14, 2010, 07:35:49 AM
Quote from: Korwin on April 14, 2010, 07:24:59 AM
And I was just now comming to the conclusion only full humans could be on the WC.

Was the Troll an example or would you rule otherwise if the Fae parent werent a lowly troll but an highly placed Sidhe?
What about an White Court virgin? I could see one being smuggled into the WCouncil. But if they knew the parents?

Would an Wizard lose his member card, if he got infected (not turned) by the Red Court?

I think their magic would need to be definitively human for them to have a chance to argue for their inclusion, the rest would be politics, and thus likely a definitive "No." on both the semi-vampires. Though an ex-White Court Virgin is a possibility (the kind that wind up human).

A Sidhe would be possible, but would have to go to extreme lengths to prove their magic was human (possibly including making The Choice). I picked a Troll because they basically never have magic beyond some item crafting, so a Troll's child clearly has magic in their own right and not from their Faerie blood.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: srl51676 on April 14, 2010, 08:36:38 AM
I am working on a character idea for a White Court Virgin born away from court then raised by a wizard and used to infiltrate the WCV.
However to be realistic I don't think the WC would give membership to anyone "Tainted" by non human blood. they do not strike me as a tolerant organization especially under the current Merlin.  How ever not being a member does not exempt you from the Laws and as we saw with molly its all about getting caught not about scale or intentions. those protected by powerful connections would have the benefit of politics on their side as long as their protector chose to provide it. Like the children of real world diplomats they would more than likely be spared. On the other hand I doubt very much if Mab cares about individual changelings unless they have a use to her or an important ally.

On a game play note I do have to say that I am disappointed by the speed with which everyone is looking for ways to avoid the Laws instead of finding creative ways to work within them. They are part of the color and flavor of the world if you find away to be immune to them you are taking a big chunk of the challenge out of the game. Why not just go play d20 modern? Why does everyone have to be a freaking rebel? A big part of Harry's character is based on his belief that the laws are important, if somewhat over enforced. He works within the gray area but always upholds the spirit of the law as well as the technical letter of the law. Playing that way is much more challenging and creates more interest for the plot and therefore more fun. Some times it feels like people are cheating at solitaire here.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 14, 2010, 08:54:20 AM
Quote from: srl51676 on April 14, 2010, 08:36:38 AM
I am working on a character idea for a White Court Virgin born away from court then raised by a wizard and used to infiltrate the WCV.
However to be realistic I don't think the WC would give membership to anyone "Tainted" by non human blood. they do not strike me as a tolerant organization especially under the current Merlin. 

I don't actually disagree here, which is why I mentioned politics. It should be a MAJOR accomplishment to get onto the White Council as a Changeling (just for example), and I'd never let a character start out that way.

But the original character proposed had it as a major character goal...and PCs exist to accomplish difficult and impressive things. If they worked hard, made it to the point where they had the full Wizard package on top of their Changeling stuff, and accumulate a few favors owed from the white Council to them, then demonstrate their knowledge and power during testing...I'd let them do it. Not quickly, easily, or cheaply, but I'd let them do it.

A semi-vampire? Not so much. PCs accomplish the difficult and the impressive, but some things just strain credibility too much.
Title: Re: White Council Membership
Post by: Korwin on April 14, 2010, 09:33:20 AM
Quote from: srl51676 on April 14, 2010, 08:36:38 AM
He works within the gray area but always upholds the spirit of the law as well as the technical letter of the law.

Do I see an contradiction here? (Zombi T-Rex)

Quote from: srl51676 on April 14, 2010, 08:36:38 AM
On a game play note I do have to say that I am disappointed by the speed with which everyone is looking for ways to avoid the Laws instead of finding creative ways to work within them.
As long as the Lawbreaker Power is purchased I see no real problem. It's expensive enough, that at least my players will be wary of breaking the law.
And even if the PC has political protection and the Lawbreaker Power, that doesnt mean there arent consequences (an extreme consequence may be even a war).