What we know about Mac: he opened his pub a few years before Harry Dresden came to Chicago; nobody knows where he’d been before that or what he’d done.
Where was Harry’s apartment?
In the same mythical four or five blocks where his office was, and where Mac’s is. It’s really dangerous to use an actual location because there’s always that occasional unbalanced person who just decides “Well, this needs to be true to the books, I’m going to burn this house down.” *audience laughter* I knew I was gonna be wrecking the place, so maybe I’ll just kind of make it semi-mythical and that will be healthier for everyone.
More importantly, at least to me, Mac was a friend. When I came to his place to eat, I considered myself a guest, and he my host. I'd abide by his declared neutrality out of simple respect, but it was good to know that the Accords were there in the background. Not every member of the supernatural community is as polite and neighborly as me.
2009 Dayton Book Signing @3:25
Could MacAnally possibly be a son of Dionysus?
He's not a Greek god nor a scion of the gods, I'll tell you that much, but we will probably won't get to see much about MacAnally until the big trilogy at the end.
Audience member: Are we going to see anything about Mac in terms of backstory and is Mac a Norse god?
Jim: Are we going to see anything with Mac in backstory and is Mac a Norse god? No, he’s not a Norse god; yes, we will find out more about him.
Reddit AMA 5-16-2014
Is Mac more than a human? I think he's not, but there's a growing faction that believes he's either Merlin or some sort of Gray Angel
Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.
Sarks: Edit: One last little question, that reading other questions below made me think of. How did Mac get his pub declared neutral ground?
Jim: 6) He filled out the proper paperwork, as cited under the Unseelie Accords. Which is about as involved as a mid-level quest that leads into epic weaponry quests, so it's kind of a story in itself. I mean, /Mab/ designed it. The summary of it is: It's a giant pain in the ass, but anyone can theoretically do it if they have the mildest of supernatural contacts and are determined enough.
2011 DC signing
Is Mac ever going to speak more than ten words?
Not for a while. He's not a man of many words, as most truly dangerous people are.
KC Signing
Are we going to learn more about Mac? His background?
Are we going to learn more about Mac and his background? Yeah, of course, I’m going to keep throwing little bits and things out there. There’s already been somebody who worked it out. I’ve been contacted by one person who successfully worked it out, and said “Hey, is Mac THIS”, and I have to write back, “I’m not saying he is, and I’m not saying he isn’t.” So, if you want to dig into the clues that are there and figure it out, have fun.
Your theory is very well cited, but I have one quibble: what is the point of sending someone to watch Dresden if that person can do nothing to influence and/or protect him? If Harry went evil, for example, I doubt Mac could do anything to neutralize him.
I don't think you have to guess where I stand on this. I'll just say that I don't really get the vibe that Mac, or anyone else other than Lea, has been watching over Harry. I think the 'Watcher' is more of a description rather than a title; it's more "what he's doing" as opposed to "what his job is/was". Likewise, I think his position has to be somewhat relevant for Before to know who he is/was. Your run of the mill Watcher, whether he be Fallen or Chained or Active Duty or Retired, probably wouldn't show up on Before's radar. We're talking about angels not any different from those watching Michael's house. Sure, Before might know all of them by name or reputation, since they've all been around for billions of years. But his digs at Mac seemed personal.
And I still tend to follow your line of thought. This just seemed like an area in general that wasn't explored perhaps quite this way...and that who or whatever Mac is, was or will be very much surrounds, (if only recently, i.e. the last twenty years more or less), or has to do with out protagonist ultimately.Yeah, but my issue with that is in the M=R theory, Mac is there to specifically watch over DR, seeing as he's invested in it. He's not really there for Harry. His presence probably preceded Harry's arrival in Chicago by millennia. He's been this bald white dude, hanging out with Indian tribes and Cubs fans for 1,500+ years.
So can we say that Mac opened his bar around the time Harry killed Justin? If we're going on an Outsider theme, then maybe HHWB made the first move by getting Harry to use Black Magic against Justin. Then, all the eventual roads lead to Chicago/Demonreach, and so Mac decides to open a pub to intercept.It's possible, but nothing certain. Per the timeline, Harry killed Justin four years before he wound up in Chicago.
I'm not saying I'm in love with this theory, but it does kinda fit whatever we got.
I don't believe I asserted (or certainly didn't mean to) that his watching over Harry was meant to include intervention if he went evil necessarily or any such equivalent.
probably preceded Harry's arrival in Chicago by millennia.
No, it was just an example I thought up.I've never bothered with any of the RPG stuff. I don't hold any of it as canon. It's too easy to dismiss as flawed.
So is the Our World quote non-canonical, then? It says that he arrived only a few years before Harry.
I've never bothered with any of the RPG stuff. I don't hold any of it as canon. It's too easy to dismiss as flawed.Honestly, from what I've seen the RPG couches most of its speculation as clearly speculation. I don't recall any statements they try to pass off as fact that aren't detailed in the text. If anything, they err on the other end of the spectrum and hedge their bets.
I've never bothered with any of the RPG stuff. I don't hold any of it as canon. It's too easy to dismiss as flawed.
Honestly, from what I've seen the RPG couches most of its speculation as clearly speculation. I don't recall any statements they try to pass off as fact that aren't detailed in the text. If anything, they err on the other end of the spectrum and hedge their bets.
Yeah, but my issue with that is in the M=R theory, Mac is there to specifically watch over DR, seeing as he's invested in it. He's not really there for Harry. His presence probably preceded Harry's arrival in Chicago by millennia. He's been this bald white dude, hanging out with Indian tribes and Cubs fans for 1,500+ years.
Luckily in this instance Harry says it himself in DB as also sourced somewhere up there :PThe book says Mac opened the pub a few years before Harry arrived in town, not that he arrived a few years before Harry. He might have been in Chicago all along, or might have moved there before Harry got there. Doesn't explain how he'd know Harry would eventually go there, to know that he should set up shop there.
As I see it the two don't necessarily need to be mutually exclusive in this case. We know he opened the bar a few years prior to Harry's arrival...perhaps 'Mac' is simply this version of himself. Like the immortals in Highlander, he leaves for a few decades here and there in order to keep suspicion or unnecessary inquiries from being made and returns after some time. This time however perhaps he is aware in some way that a Starborn has come into play and just so happens to conveniently place himself in the 'right spot' for Harry's arrival.We still would need to know why Harry went to Chicago to begin with. It's not like he went there because Lea recommended it; he was running from her after he welched on their deal. So there's no reason that others would have known, unless they're mucking about with free will or peaking into the future.
The book says Mac opened the pub a few years before Harry arrived in town, not that he arrived a few years before Harry. He might have been in Chicago all along, or might have moved there before Harry got there. Doesn't explain how he'd know Harry would eventually go there, to know that he should set up shop there.
We still would need to know why Harry went to Chicago to begin with. It's not like he went there because Lea recommended it; he was running from her after he welched on their deal. So there's no reason that others would have known, unless they're mucking about with free will or peaking into the future.
Whatever drove Harry there is certainly another question but could just as easily be chalked up to 'why not' Chicago?
I've never bothered with any of the RPG stuff. I don't hold any of it as canon. It's too easy to dismiss as flawed.
I was too depressed about not being able to find the mentioned RPG quote in the WoJ's or regular canon to read EG's theory earlier, so I still have to go through it...
Edit: I just deleted what I was going to say, because EG found it in Dead Beat as well.
EG, post it in the timeline bro!
Mac is able to call Harry for help, also (Heorot). If Mac has been around for millenia, it seems he's likely to know who took Elizabeth (was that her name?), and how dangerous it would be for Harry to face the Grendelkin (although assuming he knew all that, it's likely he knew Sigrun would be involved so Harry wouldn't be going in alone). Involving himself as he did there (by getting Harry involved) seems sort of non-neutral to me.Pretending neutrality when one actually isn't neutral isn't exactly a new covert tactic.
(Just tossing this out there - I don't have an opinion on Mac either way.)
Mac is there, at someone's behest or his own, to 'look in' on Harry so to speak. How he does or does not handle him is partly up to his discretion I imagine but also at least somewhat beholden to whatever nature he is or turns out to be and the choices that came of it.Not necessarily wrong, per se, just possibly a bit underestimating.
He'd opened the tavern a few years before I'd moved to Chicago.This is either pure happenstance (accident) or Mac is there purposefully.
If one wishes to alter the course of history, it's a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future.he might be giving a very big clue that's being totally missed (by Harry and all of us).
Oh, man. Vadderung knew about Ebenezar. Which meant that either he was higher in the old man's circle of trust than I was, or he had access to an astoundingly scary pool of information.Though it's probably both, as Odin, we know he's definitely got 'an astoundingly scary pool of information'. That's one of Odin's hallmark traits - foreknowledge.
The one thing is that Mac is neutral under the accords, but when the Outsiders came - he treated the pub as not neutral ground.
If it was an Accords member, the request to "Send the Wizard Out" would have been met by Harry going out to fight whatever. You aren't supposed to fight in Mac's as an accords member and at least one place it says that you are not supposed to taunt someone into violence. Given that they are Mab's accords, Harry would be compelled to follow them and meet an Accords member.
Instead Mac acted to defend his place. He told Harry and Thomas to kill the Outsiders. This means not only does he know them, but he does not act neutrally to them. As on my post in Serak's thread, compare this to his demeanor on the island. Back to neutrality. If the Ladies blow up the island, he would shrug. But let an Outsider show up and he is ready to throw down. To me that is our biggest clue.
I like the post. I have two suggestions.
First is that you shift the TL;DR version into spoiler code at the top of the first post.
Second is to provide links to the preexisting identity theory topics as Tam Lin (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37795.0.html) and Raphael (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,45677.0.html) in your references to them in the conclusion paragraphs.
The search function didn't help me find a Grigori topic.
I need to re-read the series again. Reading through the context of everything here, this passage in particular really stands out. This is more than just recognition, its almost familiarity:You're missing the key parts of Sharkface's rant. He tells Mac he's 'empty', as in he previously had more to him. And he says, 'have the grace'. Maybe mockingly? As in, Grace? As in, he doesn't have it, so mock him for it? And what being wouldn't have a Grace? Hmm?(click to show/hide)
So then my question is, who would have had contact with the Outsiders to the point of being familiar to them? and of those, who would have the ability to choose to be "out"? The list would be very small. Essentially down to Wizards and Guardians of the Gate. Perhaps someone even older or possibly unique. Mac is DV's equivalent of Shepard Book.
There are a couple of WoJ's I'd like to share:
There is a WoJ that states Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.
[the Winter Lady] didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
If you haven't guessed where I'm going with this already, here it is: Mac could possibly be one of the previous starborn. One that helped Mab ascend to Queen of Winter, and received immortality or extreme longevity in exchange for his neutrality in future events. This would also explain his interest in Harry, his place in the Accords, and familiarity with many of the elite denizens that filter through his pub.
I need to re-read the series again. Reading through the context of everything here, this passage in particular really stands out. This is more than just recognition, its almost familiarity:(click to show/hide)
So then my question is, who would have had contact with the Outsiders to the point of being familiar to them? and of those, who would have the ability to choose to be "out"? The list would be very small. Essentially down to Wizards and Guardians of the Gate. Perhaps someone even older or possibly unique. Mac is DV's equivalent of Shepard Book.
There are a couple of WoJ's I'd like to share:
There is a WoJ that states Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.
[the Winter Lady] didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
If you haven't guessed where I'm going with this already, here it is: Mac could possibly be one of the previous starborn. One that helped Mab ascend to Queen of Winter, and received immortality or extreme longevity in exchange for his neutrality in future events. This would also explain his interest in Harry, his place in the Accords, and familiarity with many of the elite denizens that filter through his pub.
Reddit AMA (5-16-2014)
Is Mac more than a human? I think he's not, but there's a growing faction that believes he's either Merlin or some sort of Gray Angel
Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.
KC Signing
Audience Member: You said the Winter, rather, Knights’ mantles change fairly often? How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around. And so Mab had Maeve, um, but in any case, I leave things here, don’t miss ‘em. I love to drop teases and hints and walk away smiling, but anyway. They don’t change very often at all. The Knights’ mantles change, like, constantly. Most Knights are Knights who pick up a sword for a night. And then they’re done. It’s just some random Joe, who happens to be a decent guy, and it’s like, “Look, magical sword, horrible danger! Do something!”. A lot of those guys don't go very far (I think that's what was said) Just because you’re a great guy doesn't mean you’re smart enough to survive an encounter with demons, for example. And we’ll see a bit more of that in the next book, too.
If you wanna edit these in to reflect mentioning them:I think the "knights" referenced by the questioner were KotCs, not Knights of the Fae Courts. Murphy and Susan are both examples of KotC that hold a sword for a short time; both during the Chichen Itza assault (yes, I'm saying Murphy has already been a KotC, a 'one knight stand' so to speak :) ). Rapid changeover in KotCs doesn't, to me, provide Harry any 'out' from his position.
As it pertains to the overall idea, that would at least tangentially give Harry the same general option to just say 'screw it, i'm done,' and be left alone. I don't think anyone, especially him, would get off so easily :P Hell even Mac who is 'out' had his bar assaulted AND was shot/kidnapped in the same book.
The question references Winter directly so idk where you get the idea that its not talking about the Fae Knights. Jim may have answered regarding the KoTC but that seems more like a misunderstanding on the questioner's part when he references what the author had said before and Jim just auto corrected that notion in his answer, or he misunderstood the question.I think you're confusing two posters, cause I haven't really approached much of what you've attributed to me, but... ok.
And that really has nothing to do with either of our points. You referenced the WOJ about Starborn to support your idea that Mac was also one, I provided it for you simply to add to your post if you wanted...my issue with that idea is that you attribute the evidence by asking who exactly would be able to be 'out'? And since we know Harry is a Starborn I think that is not a very strong argument because it pre-supposed that Harry will have the same ability to be 'out' because he is a Starborn (intentionally or not that's how the idea is presented). And I think that from a Doylist view that would be far too easy an out for Harry and Jim would never allow it, and from a Watsonian view it is unsupported in the story because, by your model, a Starborn who is 'out' was very much brought back in, being attacked, kidnapped and shot. That at the end of the day him deciding to 'not' be a Starborn for all intents and purposes didn't do anything to keep him uninvolved. That was my only quibble.
I think you're confusing two posters, cause I haven't really approached much of what you've attributed to me, but... ok.
I think the "knights" referenced by the questioner were KotCs, not Knights of the Fae Courts. Murphy and Susan are both examples of KotC that hold a sword for a short time; both during the Chichen Itza assault (yes, I'm saying Murphy has already been a KotC, a 'one knight stand' so to speak :) ). Rapid changeover in KotCs doesn't, to me, provide Harry any 'out' from his position.
In that WoJ Jim is specifically talking about both Knights of the Coin and the Fae Court Knights, though the court knights are typically a "lifetime" endeavor. i.e. they generally don't live long.
And he's working from my simple idea that if Mac got an "out" as a starborn, the same option would possibly be available to Harry. I think the choice hasn't presented itself yet, but I do think it's coming, of course, no choice is without consequence, and it will most definitely prey on Harry's personal nobility and sense of honor.
Essentially down to Wizards and Guardians of the Gate. Perhaps someone even older or possibly unique.
you actually find Harry is only chosen because of his specific actions or 'path'
as the hero, marcone for instance is the person to watch
and a circle of tree's for 'shady business. If you know anything about Celtic worship that's a big one, they pray in the middle of trees
@EG I prefer to think of Harry as the choosing one instead lol. It's possible, because most of Harry is the chosen one is perception, that Harry won't be the central hero, for the end at all, but more akin to the immenence Gris, the power behind the hero.
How is prayer equivalent to crime?how indeed... Killing people inside the circle could be considered an offering on hallowed ground, for instance. But in general the celts were very warrior/cleric types. And of course marcone is a true hunter in spirit, oh and as nicodemus said, he would have made a good monarch just a few short centuries ago.
But in general the celts were very warrior/cleric types.
Ok, now go look at their warrior kings and actual you know, believers. Not every warrior race was the Spartans. What they believed and why they believed it, how they chose to worship..
80% of Celts were corn farmers. (http://resourcesforhistory.com/Celtic_Farming_in_Britain.htm)
The Celts made votive offerings to their deities, which were buried in the earth or thrown into rivers or bogs. According to Barry Cunliffe, in most cases, deposits were placed in the same places on numerous occasions, indicating continual usage "over a period of time, perhaps on a seasonal basis or when a particular event, past or pending, demanded a propitiatory response."[35] In particular, there was a trend to offer items associated with warfare in watery areas, evidence for which is found not only in the Celtic regions, but also in Late Bronze Age (and therefore pre-Celtic)so taking a body and the weapon to the same spot repeatedly is worship ;)
However, according to Greco-Roman accounts of the druids and other Celts, worship was held in groves, with Tacitus describing how his men cut down "groves sacred to savage rites."savage rites indeed a shotgun blast can be.
@EG I prefer to think of Harry as the choosing one instead lol. It's possible, because most of Harry is the chosen one is perception, that Harry won't be the central hero, for the end at all, but more akin to the immenence Gris, the power behind the hero. He certainly managed to do a number on butters. Impact will and the alpha's, Molly, Murphy, and indirectly but to an even greater degree, Thomas. Mmm pure WAG but what if(click to show/hide)
I've always just assumed that Mac is The White God, taking a back seat while reality plays itself out. He's always wearing a white shirt, using a white rag. Harry even desribed Mac's beer as "God's own beer" and the guy has the respect of Odin, Mab, and everyone else. The only beings who have dared defy him so far are The Outsiders.I don't see that as making him a good candidate for TWG. Maybe the White Christ? Though that's doubtful too, since I recall someone describing TWC as never moving without a host following, trumpets blowing, etc. (Mab?, Lash?... don't remember) And, TWC isn't "out" -- meaning he is not/or cannot be involved.
I don't see that as making him a good candidate for TWG. Maybe the White Christ? Though that's doubtful too, since I recall someone describing TWC as never moving without a host following, trumpets blowing, etc. (Mab?, Lash?... don't remember) And, TWC isn't "out" -- meaning he is not/or cannot be involved.Actually he reminds me very much of TWG in dogma, just some quiet dude chillin on earth living his immortality, out of the game itself.
The longer the story goes on w/o a resolution to Mac's identity the closer I think he's going to be in the climax/resolution of the whole story. But TWG? I seriously doubt it.
I don't see that as making him a good candidate for TWG. Maybe the White Christ? Though that's doubtful too, since I recall someone describing TWC as never moving without a host following, trumpets blowing, etc. (Mab?, Lash?... don't remember) And, TWC isn't "out" -- meaning he is not/or cannot be involved.No, that wasn't TWC. She was talking about the archangels. Michael was Prince of the Host with all the pomp and ceremony. Gabriel was the Trumpeter, appearing in a chorus of light.
The longer the story goes on w/o a resolution to Mac's identity the closer I think he's going to be in the climax/resolution of the whole story. But TWG? I seriously doubt it.
No, that wasn't TWC. She was talking about the archangels. Michael was Prince of the Host with all the pomp and ceremony. Gabriel was the Trumpeter, appearing in a chorus of light.Ah... ok. Must have been my interpretation.Alfred/MacRaphael was the Demon Binder, whotraps demons in Demonreachtakes tasks on his own shoulders.
There's been no mention of TWC being an ongoing character in the Dresdenverse, as far as I can recall.
The part where Harry felt at home at Mac's from the first time he set foot there struck me as similar to his bit of prescient intuition when on Demonreach during small favor. Considering all the roles it plays in his life that you point out, and all the time he spends there between books thats not too unreasonable of a watsonian explanation.
I doubt that mac is going to be the white god or christ though: too much controversy.
The part where Harry felt at home at Mac's from the first time he set foot there struck me as similar to his bit of prescient intuition when on Demonreach during small favor. Considering all the roles it plays in his life that you point out, and all the time he spends there between books thats not too unreasonable of a watsonian explanation.Are you specifically referring to where Harry feels like an 'old wolf' come back home? That's one of those Odin, Harry resemblances I think.
I doubt that mac is going to be the white god or christ though: too much controversy.