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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Tinfoil hat on September 12, 2022, 04:21:22 PM
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WHY EVERYONE IS OK WITH DEMONREACH NOT HAVING A WARDEN
So when last did Demonreach last have a warden before harry got the job. The books imply at least 5 years. I have seen so say 15 years or more. Which is crazy, cause Demonreach is scary and powerful. All the major players seem to know about it. Yet none seem to be willing to attempt a power grap and take it for themselves in the years without a warden. Mab in Changes claims Demonreach could have defended itself from the ladies and co. And BG implies that the Warden is a weakness thst can be used to get in the island being able to defend itself. NEMESIS’S plan
Stop theory time
What if in the early days the council always made sure their was a warden. But most candidates died trying to bound with it. Thosewere the lucky ones. Those who succeed ended up getting unstable. This could explain why no one rushes to fill the spot its more troble than its worth.
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Yes, but what I don't understand is:
Why let it without Warden? So any villain could grab it and try to become Warden themselves? Wouldn't it be better to make sure there is a Warden you can trust, instead of waiting for someone to just stumble upon the job?
What other Wardens did we know except Harry and Kemmler? OK, could be the job makes them crazy. Or only the crazy can get the job in the first place. ;)
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My theory is that it had a Warden, he was an absentee Warden until he was murdered by the Captain of the Wardens under the influence.
The White Council obviously thought they could mothball Demonreach, it had been decades since it was last used, I mean it’s not as if a Titan was going to appear out of thin air was it.
Their solution? have one of their number anonymously become warden who had no ambitions in relation to Demonreach to prevent any old Tom, Dick or Harry becoming warden and releasing the Boogens under their control. Obviously this was wheedled out of the Senior Council themselves partially under the influence.
Of course if it was found out WHO was the warden, someone seeking control of Demonreach could murder them and then rush to Demonreach and pick up the reigns, I mean it would be extraordinary bad luck for someone to bind the island before they could safely get to the island themselves, wouldn’t it.
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WHY EVERYONE IS OK WITH DEMONREACH NOT HAVING A WARDEN
So when last did Demonreach last have a warden before harry got the job. The books imply at least 5 years. I have seen so say 15 years or more. Which is crazy, cause Demonreach is scary and powerful. All the major players seem to know about it. Yet none seem to be willing to attempt a power grap and take it for themselves in the years without a warden. Mab in Changes claims Demonreach could have defended itself from the ladies and co. And BG implies that the Warden is a weakness thst can be used to get in the island being able to defend itself. NEMESIS’S plan
Stop theory time
What if in the early days the council always made sure their was a warden. But most candidates died trying to bound with it. Thosewere the lucky ones. Those who succeed ended up getting unstable. This could explain why no one rushes to fill the spot its more troble than its worth.
The Doylist answer is that Butcher didn't finalize the idea until he foreshadows it in Small Favor and that he still doesn't have a handle on it.
The Watsonian answer is that it didn't really need one, because there could be at least one in a cell on Demonreach, just in case. Butcher keeps hinting that Alfred is hiding something.
Think of it this way. You create a doomsday weapon and place it in a missile silo in the Midwest. Then you rely on random chance to fill the position of civilization ender. Even the people who dreamed up the strategic missile forces aren't that silly(and they were pretty silly).
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Yes, but what I don't understand is:
Why let it without Warden? So any villain could grab it and try to become Warden themselves? Wouldn't it be better to make sure there is a Warden you can trust, instead of waiting for someone to just stumble upon the job?
What other Wardens did we know except Harry and Kemmler? OK, could be the job makes them crazy. Or only the crazy can get the job in the first place. ;)
Only the crazy get the job would be scary
But in line with the Dresden files universe
Part of me thinks tha lasciel was a test meant to prepare harry for the role. If u can tame a fallen demonreach wont corrupt u
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Only the crazy get the job would be scary
But in line with the Dresden files universe
Part of me thinks tha lasciel was a test meant to prepare harry for the role. If u can tame a fallen demonreach wont corrupt u
Two points, here...
1. A Fallen Angel's shadow, playing a "long game" of studying their target & customizing temptations to them, is very different from the continuous psychic pressure of the Island itself and its protector, and the temptation to explore / utilize the power represented by the entities trapped there. I don't think the one prepares you for the other.
2. At the same time, I think Harry's whole life has been micromanaged by supernatural forces (particularly Mab, whom I WAG to have been "social-engineering" herself a Starborn/Wizard/WinterKnight since before Harry was born!) to (A) harden the will of the Starborn & (B) power-up the Starborn for the coming apocalypse; beginning with orphaning Harry, apprenticing him to Justin (shield-training via baseballs, &c), isolating from the White Council (who should have been his "in-group," the people who'd rally-round at need, have his back), and so on. In this context, yes the Coin was part of that process... just not specific to the Island or to being Warden (that too is just another Power-up strewn in his path, to give a wizard BAT-caliber power (centuries before a wizard would normally hit the apex of his power)).
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Two points, here...
1. A Fallen Angel's shadow, playing a "long game" of studying their target & customizing temptations to them, is very different from the continuous psychic pressure of the Island itself and its protector, and the temptation to explore / utilize the power represented by the entities trapped there. I don't think the one prepares you for the other.
2. At the same time, I think Harry's whole life has been micromanaged by supernatural forces (particularly Mab, whom I WAG to have been "social-engineering" herself a Starborn/Wizard/WinterKnight since before Harry was born!) to (A) harden the will of the Starborn & (B) power-up the Starborn for the coming apocalypse; beginning with orphaning Harry, apprenticing him to Justin (shield-training via baseballs, &c), isolating from the White Council (who should have been his "in-group," the people who'd rally-round at need, have his back), and so on. In this context, yes the Coin was part of that process... just not specific to the Island or to being Warden (that too is just another Power-up strewn in his path, to give a wizard BAT-caliber power (centuries before a wizard would normally hit the apex of his power)).
I agree and have said for a long time that Harry's life has been micromanaged by outside forces. If that is what destiny is, well then Harry has been a man of destiny from the moment he was conceived.
As to why the island went Wardenless, and I disagree, it did need a Warden, who knows? It fact that it needed a Warden is born out by the defense systems that needed a Warden to be fully implemented, as Harry did the year he spent on the island before Skin Game. In fact, I'd say it lucked out basically, though I think Alfred would have put up a pretty good fight, but it was vulnerable, I'd like to see Denarians camp out on it's shores now.
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Why was the WC with it being Wardenless? Because the paranoids at the Senior Council were afraid a warden might USE one or more of the prisoners. Still likely ARE. If Harry breaks - what stops him from going to Edinburgh with his new puppet Ethnui at his side? Think she can crack their wards? and she supposedly is not the biggest baddest one... recall, Naagloshi are in minimum security - what is in Supermax?
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Why was the WC with it being Wardenless? Because the paranoids at the Senior Council were afraid a warden might USE one or more of the prisoners.
This, I think.
Being the Warden simultaneously :
- gives that person access to an incredible amount of power
- puts them under a constant psychic strain
- makes them a target for those looking to use the power (n.b. that includes indirect pressure, manipulation, blackmail, bribery, seduction, deception, etc)
- makes them a target for anyone looking to jailbreak one or more prisoners
Who does the (paranoid) White Council choose as the person to wield all that power, wear that bullseye? Caught between paranoias -- not willing to trust anyone who's willing to actually step up to say "I'll do it!" but also few/none willing to accept the role if asked, for fear they're being nominated to die...
We've also already seen how far they can stick their heads in the sand, denying reality: they don't want to face the fact that a Warden is actually necessary (and with the coming Apocalypse, critically necessary).
So the paranoia keeps them from screwing their courage to the sticking-point, and the OPD (Ostrich Personality Disorder) convinces them it's probably OK, for now...
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This, I think.
Being the Warden simultaneously :
- gives that person access to an incredible amount of power
- puts them under a constant psychic strain
- makes them a target for those looking to use the power (n.b. that includes indirect pressure, manipulation, blackmail, bribery, seduction, deception, etc)
- makes them a target for anyone looking to jailbreak one or more prisoners
Who does the (paranoid) White Council choose as the person to wield all that power, wear that bullseye? Caught between paranoias -- not willing to trust anyone who's willing to actually step up to say "I'll do it!" but also few/none willing to accept the role if asked, for fear they're being nominated to die...
We've also already seen how far they can stick their heads in the sand, denying reality: they don't want to face the fact that a Warden is actually necessary (and with the coming Apocalypse, critically necessary).
So the paranoia keeps them from screwing their courage to the sticking-point, and the OPD (Ostrich Personality Disorder) convinces them it's probably OK, for now...
I always think that part of the problem is that jim nevers rights a short will the SC members as narrators. There is a word of jim that the Merlins plan for ending the war was pointing harry at them. This woj implies a lot. What if the SC is so relaxed because it knows that Mab, and Odin was on the job. BG tells us that Odi spents to much time in Chicago due to him having plans for how to defend Chicago
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Actually the Warden isn’t under psychic strain unless he interviews the inmates. It’s everybody else who is.
I am waiting for Harry to put Ronald McDonald into Demonreach.
You know he must exist in the Dresdenverse as a thing from the NeverNever, his desmesne being McDonaldland, along with Mickey Mouse, the Michelin Man and every other corporate Mascot. I really want to see Toot and Lacuna take on Snap, Crackle and Pop ““No added Sugar!” Screamed Lacuna as she beat the mascots head into a shapeless bloody pulp with a comically large spoon.””
Just because all the traditional monsters are in Demonreach doesn’t mean that there might not be new monsters who deserve to be there. The White Council mothballing Demonreach is very shortsighted at best, horrifying at worst.
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I am waiting for Harry to put Ronald McDonald into Demonreach.
You know he must exist in the Dresdenverse as a thing from the NeverNever ...
Pennywise is Ronny McD's side-hustle.
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WHY EVERYONE IS OK WITH DEMONREACH NOT HAVING A WARDEN
So when last did Demonreach last have a warden before harry got the job. The books imply at least 5 years. I have seen so say 15 years or more. Which is crazy, cause Demonreach is scary and powerful. All the major players seem to know about it. Yet none seem to be willing to attempt a power grap and take it for themselves in the years without a warden. Mab in Changes claims Demonreach could have defended itself from the ladies and co. And BG implies that the Warden is a weakness thst can be used to get in the island being able to defend itself. NEMESIS’S plan
Stop theory time
What if in the early days the council always made sure their was a warden. But most candidates died trying to bound with it. Thosewere the lucky ones. Those who succeed ended up getting unstable. This could explain why no one rushes to fill the spot its more troble than its worth.
We don't know for sure, but personally I suspect it has more to do with Council politics.
Probably it has a Warden...most of the time. But when one dies or retires (if you can), then the SC probably has to appoint a new one. The sheer power and danger associated with the position means that they are probably going to be very careful about who they give it to, and it might be that the candidate has to be acceptable to Alfred as well.
So the appointment is probably very, very political. It would likely (I suspect) need to be someone the whole SC, or a large majority of them, can agree on. Which might also mean that it needs to be someone that isn't a close ally of any one Senior Councillor and an enemy of another. If Alfred has a veto that further narrows the list of possible candidates.
Also, the Council is made up of people with multi-century lifespans and the SC is mostly people who have been around for hundreds of years. They take the long view, for good or bad (or for good and bad). Most of the time, so what if the island goes a few years without a Warden?
If things are calm, no major threats visible on the horizon, it might not seem like a big deal to the SC if the position is empty for five or ten or twenty years, while they figure out who to appoint. It might matter if something Nasty suddenly brews up, but that's the exception, and 300+ year olds know it. Most of the time they'd be right not to sweat it.
A twenty-year gap to a SC member is approximately the same as an eight month interim would seem to a typical mundane human (assuming 400 year Wizard spans and 75 year typical mundane spans).
Anyway, that's my guess.
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We don't know for sure, but personally I suspect it has more to do with Council politics.
Probably it has a Warden...most of the time. But when one dies or retires (if you can), then the SC probably has to appoint a new one. The sheer power and danger associated with the position means that they are probably going to be very careful about who they give it to, and it might be that the candidate has to be acceptable to Alfred as well.
So the appointment is probably very, very political. It would likely (I suspect) need to be someone the whole SC, or a large majority of them, can agree on. Which might also mean that it needs to be someone that isn't a close ally of any one Senior Councillor and an enemy of another. If Alfred has a veto that further narrows the list of possible candidates.
Also, the Council is made up of people with multi-century lifespans and the SC is mostly people who have been around for hundreds of years. They take the long view, for good or bad (or for good and bad). Most of the time, so what if the island goes a few years without a Warden?
If things are calm, no major threats visible on the horizon, it might not seem like a big deal to the SC if the position is empty for five or ten or twenty years, while they figure out who to appoint. It might matter if something Nasty suddenly brews up, but that's the exception, and 300+ year olds know it. Most of the time they'd be right not to sweat it.
A twenty-year gap to a SC member is approximately the same as an eight month interim would seem to a typical mundane human (assuming 400 year Wizard spans and 75 year typical mundane spans).
Anyway, that's my guess.
That might work. A year seems like a life time to a teenager but to a 60 year old its not that long.
Your idea might solve the issue. After all according to Eb BG while big wasnt EVERYONE fighting. In his life time maybe every 120 years an incident might occur that requires the island. So who cares if the island is warden less for a few years. That might also explain things like Mab being ok with a lady and knight ( maeve and the other guy forgot his name). A competent lady and knight weren't needed then. As soon as theyare needed she fires them
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Two points.
1) I suspect LaFortier was Warden.
2) I also suspect Harry didn't do the Warden ritual, but the the Sanctum ritual- and there will be weirdness
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Two points.
1) I suspect LaFortier was Warden.
2) I also suspect Harry didn't do the Warden ritual, but the the Sanctum ritual- and there will be weirdness
It is Harry Dresden, there will alwaysbe weirdness... ::)
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The LaFortier theory
LaFortier was murdered after the Black Council found out that he was secretly the absentee Warden of Demonreach, as this meant one of their number could assume the role. Harry however blundered in before their candidate (Peabody) could discretely beat the vacillating White Council to the punch. Peabody was an expert on summoning and binding (his book on the Erl King) making him the ideal candidate. LaFortier appears to have had a similar background, given the description of his rooms. The motive ascribed by Eb that it was to make way for Christos as a Black Council nominee doesn’t stand up following Christos actions in Battle Ground. More Ink I think, playing on the fact Eb and Christos are chalk and cheese.
The identity of the Warden was closely held amongst the Senior Council, Peabody was obviously looking for clues using his ink. He may have had a previous misfire incorrectly identifying Simon Pietrovich, his murder by the Red Court may have been what Cowl was after from the Red Court in Grave Peril, and he and Peabody supplied the information to get past his defences.
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There was a better candidate to be the Warden than LA Fortier. If they were looking for integrity and power, Morgan should have been given the post. If McCoy can be the Blackstaff without being a Senior Council member, then the Warden could have been Morgan. Perhaps that would have led to fewer executions and more imprisonments among the marginal warlocks.
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I think the Senior Council wanted to keep the role within their ranks, and McCoy would not have been on the Council when LaFortier assumed the role.
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I don't think Peabody was SC material. They could have used him to weaken the SC to get their guy in, but if you look at it... he's a clerk. a Supreme court clerk has to be very knowledgeable, but they don't usually get the job - it's a stepping stone. He's a beancounter/paperpusher. And if they put him on the Council... they lose a mole. That little gray man who is trusted may hear more than an actual SC member - because he deals with all of them.
As to who could have been Warden? What have we seen the Warden DO? Jail Ethniu? So he can't work beyond the Chicago waterfront? LaF could have been loyal and trustworthy and been in the job years before Morgan came along. Morgan could have done the job - whatever else, he was loyal. But... Eb speaks of trusting Harry's judgement - does that mean the Warden may have to break rules now and then? Morgan is not that guy. He might stretch one - he didn't turn in Molly - but not the way to usually bet
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... If McCoy can be the Blackstaff without being a Senior Council member, then the Warden could have been Morgan ...
n.b. "the blackstaff" can mean either the WC's wetwork-guy, or the item itself. And the item is... not well understood by the WC, I think. They know it's very powerful, and even more dangerous; iirc WoJ says that the main way the WC "decides" who gets it is when someone is strong enough to bond with it, and crazy enough even to try.
I doubt they realize how much it really isn't under their control at all... it's like they're little kids playing dress-up with mommy's fur coat. But when Mommy decides it's time to go out...
I'm anticipating the scene where Mother winter says to Harry, "Fetch me my walking-stick, boy!"