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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ClintACK on October 07, 2020, 04:06:55 AM
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When Ethniu takes the field and starts blasting things with the Eye of Balor, Mab counters with a psychic assault all over the city, strengthening her allies and oppressing her enemies.
"Everything coming in from that side knows, not in its head but deep down in its guts, that it is entering the lair of a predator and that it's never going home. Knows the odds are against it. Knows that every step forward brings it closer to death.
"... She'll blunt any non-useful terror you might feel, too. And she'll encourage your aggressive tendencies. Like maybe enough so that someone who is too physically screwed up to be involved in fighting instead convinces her friends to help her and heads out into the war.
... Butters leaned in to the conversation. "What happens if Mab keeps making things worse on the enemy?"
Bob let out a hysterical little cackle. "They go insane. I mean, obviously. It's a psychic assault."
So... two things to note:
1. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Murphy might well have stayed at Mac's. The pain from her injuries would have prevented her from riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka. And her desire to protect might well have overruled her desire to kick ass.
2. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Rudolph might not have been so insanely panicked -- not to the point that his partner had to knock him unconscious.
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So... two things to note:
1. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Murphy might well have stayed at Mac's. The pain from her injuries would have prevented her from riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka. And her desire to protect might well have overruled her desire to kick ass.
2. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Rudolph might not have been so insanely panicked -- not to the point that his partner had to knock him
Mab may have been human once, but she either has forgotten how humans react, or she no longer cares. She needed soldiers on the field, they are to be used and discarded as needed.
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Mab may have been human once, but she either has forgotten how humans react, or she no longer cares. She needed soldiers on the field, they are to be used and discarded as needed.
To be fair that kind of decision was not out of reach for most human generals in history if they had the means they would certainly do it.
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To be fair that kind of decision was not out of reach for most human generals in history if they had the means they would certainly do it.
I agree, and it is part of the understanding I believe she and Harry came to. At some point Mab talks about giving up her soul bit by bit to save people who will never know who did it. Or it might have been Harry, cannot remember now, but he understands because when those people chose to fight under his banner, he felt them die, and a bit of his soul with them. I think the interactions between Harry and Mab are my favorite parts of the book. Mab is also pleased that Harry didn't choose to use the Winter Mantle to compel people to fight under his banner. I think she likes her Knight to be able to use the mantle as a tool, not have the mantle use him. That was the case with Slate and as a result he was almost useless to her and ultimately betrayed her.
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When Ethniu takes the field and starts blasting things with the Eye of Balor, Mab counters with a psychic assault all over the city, strengthening her allies and oppressing her enemies.
So... two things to note:
1. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Murphy might well have stayed at Mac's. The pain from her injuries would have prevented her from riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka. And her desire to protect might well have overruled her desire to kick ass.
2. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Rudolph might not have been so insanely panicked -- not to the point that his partner had to knock him unconscious.
There is a certain truth in this assertion, though I think in the case of Murphy, Mab's influence does not change anything truly important. Murphy is too stubborn and has too much experience with psychic assault to be truly effected by Mab's prompting. Even if Mab isn't there Murphy would do the same and she might even die faster in the war if her pain or some irrelevant fear distracted her during the battle. In Murphy's case, Mab's influence has all the positive effect without the negatives. At least I think so.
I am really upset when Murphy died. I mean, I stop reading the book for about 2 minutes just to calm myself down. Her death was quite a shock at the time.
Ultimately though her presence there is nescesary. Harry would have died at least twice if Murphy and the reinforcement she brings does not arrive in time. And without Harry Chicago would have been lost.
The price is heavy but I must say she died well.
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There is a certain truth in this assertion, though I think in the case of Murphy, Mab's influence does not change anything truly important. Murphy is too stubborn and has too much experience with psychic assault to be truly effected by Mab's prompting. Even if Mab isn't there Murphy would do the same and she might even die faster in the war if her pain or some irrelevant fear distracted her during the battle. In Murphy's case, Mab's influence has all the positive effect without the negatives. At least I think so.
I am really upset when Murphy died. I mean, I stop reading the book for about 2 minutes just to calm myself down. Her death was quite a shock at the time.
Ultimately though her presence there is nescesary. Harry would have died at least twice if Murphy and the reinforcement she brings does not arrive in time. And without Harry Chicago would have been lost.
The price is heavy but I must say she died well.
What Gard said.
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I agree, and it is part of the understanding I believe she and Harry came to. At some point Mab talks about giving up her soul bit by bit to save people who will never know who did it. Or it might have been Harry, cannot remember now, but he understands because when those people chose to fight under his banner, he felt them die, and a bit of his soul with them. I think the interactions between Harry and Mab are my favorite parts of the book. Mab is also pleased that Harry didn't choose to use the Winter Mantle to compel people to fight under his banner. I think she likes her Knight to be able to use the mantle as a tool, not have the mantle use him. That was the case with Slate and as a result he was almost useless to her and ultimately betrayed her.
I read the moment as Mab being proud of Harry for not wanting to dull the pain with the Winter Mantle, and understanding that it was important for him to feel the people under his banner die, to remind him of the price.
Also, about all being Mab's fault... Rudolph and Murphy are a small sacrifice for being able to stop Ethniu. If she hadn't prepared the field, everyone would probably have died.
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I read the moment as Mab being proud of Harry for not wanting to dull the pain with the Winter Mantle, and understanding that it was important for him to feel the people under his banner die, to remind him of the price.
Also, about all being Mab's fault... Rudolph and Murphy are a small sacrifice for being able to stop Ethniu. If she hadn't prepared the field, everyone would probably have died.
Yes, but I believe it is a little more complicated, that is why at the end of the book Harry understood now how someone like Mab loses her soul. It doesn't happen all at once, but bit by bit.
I agree as far as Murphy is concerned. Rudolph, however wasn't a sacrifice, it will be interesting to see if he survived if what is left of his sanity is intact.
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I think the TWG is directly responsible for Murphy demise, I don't know why. Perhaps because she was not going to be happy ever again with so many injuries, perhaps because He needs that Harry losses her. I don't know. But Murphy did a wonderful thing, deserving a reward and perhaps Rest is the reward.
Why do I say that he is responsible, because too many "random" things led to Murphy's death. Bradley couldn't move with his daughter and Rudolph at the same time, so Harry and Murhpy asked him to leave Rudolph. The gun dropped to the floor and no one had the time to take it. Then Rudolph completely freak out. And Harry suddenly (not before that) discovered that he couldn't raise his arm for a Forzare. I just think there are too many "coincidences" and I only can see the TWG as having that control over reality.
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I think the TWG is directly responsible for Murphy demise, I don't know why. Perhaps because she was not going to be happy ever again with so many injuries, perhaps because He needs that Harry losses her. I don't know. But Murphy did a wonderful thing, deserving a reward and perhaps Rest is the reward.
Why do I say that he is responsible, because too many "random" things led to Murphy's death. Bradley couldn't move with his daughter and Rudolph at the same time, so Harry and Murhpy asked him to leave Rudolph. The gun dropped to the floor and no one had the time to take it. Then Rudolph completely freak out. And Harry suddenly (not before that) discovered that he couldn't raise his arm for a Forzare. I just think there are too many "coincidences" and I only can see the TWG as having that control over reality.
Odin has a certain reputation of making sure you die at the height of your reputation before you can decline so you can be collected by the valkyries
And those two can very well have worked together in this case in light of a recent woj about claims on persons and waking up in walhalla confused.
Because Karrin was a catholic Uriel had a claim too but they have yearly lunches and Karrin’s latest choice was more in line with Odin than with Christianity.
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Odin has a certain reputation of making sure you die at the height of your reputation before you can decline so you can be collected by the valkyries
And those two can very well have worked together in this case in light of a recent woj about claims on persons and waking up in walhalla confused.
Because Karrin was a catholic Uriel had a claim too but they have yearly lunches and Katrina’s latest choice was more in line with Odin than with Christianity.
If not for the fact that JB is not known to break the fictional rule he just recently establish, I almost suspected Uriel might intervened in Murphy's case. Though usual einghenjar could not return untill all mortal memories of her is gone and even the ALL-father cannot break this rule, adding one of the Archangel to the equation should be enough reason to explain the rule breaking if needed. If there is indeed an unspeakable deal between Odin All-father and Uriel the watchman in regards to Murphy's soul, Murphy's return could indeed be hastened.
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Because Karrin was a catholic Uriel had a claim too but they have yearly lunches and Karrin’s latest choice was more in line with Odin than with Christianity.
The Einherjar will all die at Ragnarok, Uriel will still get her in the end. Maybe service for Odin counts as her term in Purgatory. Only Saints go straight to heaven and she has been naughty. Got a divorce and remarried, that is a terrible sin ... she will have to do some time 😉
About Rudolph, it's interesting that Mab's spell heightened his fear - if that's what happened, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Well spotted.
Mab saw Rudolph as an enemy, like Bob. Accidentally or with a very good reason?
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The Einherjar will all die at Ragnarok, Uriel will still get her in the end. Maybe service for Odin counts as her term in Purgatory. Only Saints go straight to heaven and she has been naughty. Got a divorce and remarried, that is a terrible sin ... she will have to do some time 😉
If ragnarok ever comes. It could be, just like apocalypse, a state of mind, not a literal unavoidable future.
From how I feel the series everyone tries to avoid the end times.
About Rudolph, it's interesting that Mab's spell heightened his fear - if that's what happened, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Well spotted.
Mab saw Rudolph as an enemy, like Bob. Accidentally or with a very good reason?
It is probably something Mab’s enemies have in common, something about their intentions or view of the world. It is not that Mab evaluates everyone personally.
Rudolph was an enemy because he behaved like one.
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The Einherjar will all die at Ragnarok, Uriel will still get her in the end. Maybe service for Odin counts as her term in Purgatory. Only Saints go straight to heaven and she has been naughty. Got a divorce and remarried, that is a terrible sin ... she will have to do some time 😉
About Rudolph, it's interesting that Mab's spell heightened his fear - if that's what happened, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Well spotted.
Mab saw Rudolph as an enemy, like Bob. Accidentally or with a very good reason?
Maybe, my thought is Mab's spell could dispell pain and fear but not insanity. Bradley was afraid, but he was able to handle it once Murphy and Butters explained it to him. Rudolph has always been on the edge even before this happened. If he suffers from paranoia, this would have totally pushed him off.
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I had moved my new post about my theory of TWG to another thread, because it was derailing this one. If you are interested:
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53854.0.html
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Harry suddenly (not before that) discovered that he couldn't raise his arm for a Forzare.
This proves Jim's not as terrible as everyone says. Can you imagine Harry's guilt if his use of forzare had caused Rudolph to flinch and shoot Murphy?
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This proves Jim's not as terrible as everyone says. Can you imagine Harry's guilt if his use of forzare had caused Rudolph to flinch and shoot Murphy?
I don't know if he'd feel worse, dead is dead.. Even if he failed, at least he knew he tried to stop Rudolph. Either way, it was such a dumb/pointless way for her to die.. And no, shooting the giant with the bazooka wasn't pointless, but being murdered by an insane cop with bad trigger habits is.
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Mab may have been human once, but she either has forgotten how humans react, or she no longer cares. She needed soldiers on the field, they are to be used and discarded as needed.
I vote for "she no longer cares". By my reckoning, Mab, and all of Winter for that matter, are Lawful Neutral while Summer is Chaotic Neutral.
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I don't know if he'd feel worse, dead is dead.. Even if he failed, at least he knew he tried to stop Rudolph. Either way, it was such a dumb/pointless way for her to die.. And no, shooting the giant with the bazooka wasn't pointless, but being murdered by an insane cop with bad trigger habits is.
But is there more to it than it seems? We are discussing if someone else killed Murph by proxy here: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53854.0.html
Regarding the opening statement I would say it is all Mabs fault that humanity is not hit by the apocalypse. She lured Ethniu into attacking the only city that has a nearby super-supermax prison, rallied the people there to defend it (in her own way) and led the most dangerous attach.
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But is there more to it than it seems? We are discussing if someone else killed Murph by proxy here: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53854.0.html
Regarding the opening statement I would say it is all Mabs fault that humanity is not hit by the apocalypse. She lured Ethniu into attacking the only city that has a nearby super-supermax prison, rallied the people there to defend it (in her own way) and led the most dangerous attach.
I don't think so, Murphy died because she did what she always did, go out to fight above her weight class. In the past this plan has served her well, using her brains to guide her skills. With the help of Mab's spell and her preplanning, it was serving her well again, both the motorcycle and the freedom from pain. However one cannot plan for random nut cases. I think Rudolph had been on the brink for years, the events in Chicago just pushed him over the edge.
I doubt that anyone killed Murphy by proxy. Yes, it took a burn from the Sword of Faith to sober Harry up, but the reason the Knights were so hell bent on stopping him from killing Rudolph is because it isn't Harry's place to judge his fate, that is up to human justice and the Almighty. It stopped Harry from truly being guilty of murder not just from a human point of view, but the First Law of Magic, Harry would be executed one way or the other, and he is needed in the future.
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I don't think so, Murphy died because she did what she always did, go out to fight above her weight class. In the past this plan has served her well, using her brains to guide her skills. With the help of Mab's spell and her preplanning, it was serving her well again, both the motorcycle and the freedom from pain. However one cannot plan for random nut cases. I think Rudolph had been on the brink for years, the events in Chicago just pushed him over the edge.
I doubt that anyone killed Murphy by proxy. Yes, it took a burn from the Sword of Faith to sober Harry up, but the reason the Knights were so hell bent on stopping him from killing Rudolph is because it isn't Harry's place to judge his fate, that is up to human justice and the Almighty. It stopped Harry from truly being guilty of murder not just from a human point of view, but the First Law of Magic, Harry would be executed one way or the other, and he is needed in the future.
Murphy's death was IMO one of the best written parts of both books. A little wordy over the empty house bit but still well written. Harry's response as well as the Knights response was also well written.
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I agree as far as Murphy is concerned. Rudolph, however wasn't a sacrifice, it will be interesting to see if he survived if what is left of his sanity is intact.
And what becomes of him otherwise. As much as Sanya and Butters were morally right that Harry shouldn't murder him in wrath, I suspect they were wrong that human justice would address him killing Murphy. Unless he's inclined to confess, there isn't even a body left after the valkyries took her away. The DV police aren't exactly proactive about missing persons during normal times, let alone amid tens of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced by the damage.
After the injuries and the scare Harry did to him, I wouldn't be surprised if he just gets more motivated and sneaky about destroying Harry from a distance. If he's sane enough to try to keep his job, his version of events is probably going to be "Bradley assaulted me then ran off, and Dresden tried to murder me with his bare hands. I don't know anything about Murphy, but they were probably both complicit in the terrorist attack".
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And what becomes of him otherwise. As much as Sanya and Butters were morally right that Harry shouldn't murder him in wrath, I suspect they were wrong that human justice would address him killing Murphy. Unless he's inclined to confess, there isn't even a body left after the valkyries took her away. The DV police aren't exactly proactive about missing persons during normal times, let alone amid tens of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced by the damage.
After the injuries and the scare Harry did to him, I wouldn't be surprised if he just gets more motivated and sneaky about destroying Harry from a distance. If he's sane enough to try to keep his job, his version of events is probably going to be "Bradley assaulted me then ran off, and Dresden tried to murder me with his bare hands. I don't know anything about Murphy, but they were probably both complicit in the terrorist attack".
Yep. You have to keep in mind how little any authorities can piece together any sort of crime during this whole thing. Be a perfect time for someone with that sort of bent to take out someone they don't like. No time to do a good investigation, crime scene trampled on by an invading force. Almost all the dead are just going to be written off as part of the terrorist attack. And in this specific case, no body. I kept shaking my head every time someone said something about it is for the authorities to decide the justice. Not that I don't agree with the idea that Harry shouldn't kill Rudolph, but telling him let the authorities handle it was a major cop out.
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Yep. You have to keep in mind how little any authorities can piece together any sort of crime during this whole thing. Be a perfect time for someone with that sort of bent to take out someone they don't like. No time to do a good investigation, crime scene trampled on by an invading force. Almost all the dead are just going to be written off as part of the terrorist attack. And in this specific case, no body. I kept shaking my head every time someone said something about it is for the authorities to decide the justice. Not that I don't agree with the idea that Harry shouldn't kill Rudolph, but telling him let the authorities handle it was a major cop out.
Perhaps, however he will get his eventually, divine justice if nothing else. I'd be shocked if he manages to get Bradley to go along with anything against Harry. Yeah, well if Harry had simply used a gun on him, he might get away with it, but he was going to use magic.. Butters told him best, they need "the good man" Harry, not a warlock.
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Perhaps, however he will get his eventually, divine justice if nothing else. I'd be shocked if he manages to get Bradley to go along with anything against Harry. Yeah, well if Harry had simply used a gun on him, he might get away with it, but he was going to use magic.. Butters told him best, they need "the good man" Harry, not a warlock.
That's something I was wondering. Would killing Rudolph by physically crushing him with his magical shield count as killing someone with magic? I mean, he could have picked up any strong object and done the same thing.
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That's something I was wondering. Would killing Rudolph by physically crushing him with his magical shield count as killing someone with magic? I mean, he could have picked up any strong object and done the same thing.
still it was his magic.
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That's something I was wondering. Would killing Rudolph by physically crushing him with his magical shield count as killing someone with magic? I mean, he could have picked up any strong object and done the same thing.
Technically, I would think so, since it would be deliberate and not an accident. And consider, if they tried to pin First Law charges on Harry for killing Turtlenecks, they'd have his head for sure with Rudolph. I think Butters and Sanya were more worried about what it would do to Harry's soul if nothing else.
While we are on the subject, why was it that Michael's Angel guard detail not be able to stop the Turtlenecks? They aren't exactly human anymore, they have gills, or can they get through simply because they are mortal?
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Telynn, precisely If he had picked an object, it would have been killing for humans, but no magic law would have been broked. But the shield is magic, he would have been executed as Mira says.
And I agree, Snark Knight. Rudolph is going to get revenge on Harry, but I don't know if physically or if he will try to complicate things for him with the vanilla authorities. I just hope it backfires. As I said before, he is Gollum, the fact that Harry allowed him to live will be good in the long term.
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When Ethniu takes the field and starts blasting things with the Eye of Balor, Mab counters with a psychic assault all over the city, strengthening her allies and oppressing her enemies.
So... two things to note:
1. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Murphy might well have stayed at Mac's. The pain from her injuries would have prevented her from riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka. And her desire to protect might well have overruled her desire to kick ass.
2. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Rudolph might not have been so insanely panicked -- not to the point that his partner had to knock him unconscious.
3. Without preparing the field Chicago might have died.
People die in wars, it's the whole point. Harry's response is altogether something else.
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Technically, I would think so, since it would be deliberate and not an accident. And consider, if they tried to pin First Law charges on Harry for killing Turtlenecks, they'd have his head for sure with Rudolph. I think Butters and Sanya were more worried about what it would do to Harry's soul if nothing else.
While we are on the subject, why was it that Michael's Angel guard detail not be able to stop the Turtlenecks? They aren't exactly human anymore, they have gills, or can they get through simply because they are mortal?
The angels are Michael's retirement package.
Michael and his family weren't there.
Hence, no smiting was necessary. I think this would have been a bit of a borderline case, so Molly did Uriel a favour by avoiding the need for smiting.
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The angels are Michael's retirement package.
Michael and his family weren't there.
Hence, no smiting was necessary. I think this would have been a bit of a borderline case, so Molly did Uriel a favour by avoiding the need for smiting.
Molly moved them across the street to her house because Listen and company could get past the angel guard. That is what the Titan thought she was showing him, but it was an illusion sent by Molly, only she left out Mouse, and Harry knew that they'd only got to Maggie over Mouse's dead body and he wasn't to be seen, so he knew the vision was fake, maintained his focus and will.
But if they hadn't been moved, it sounds like Listen and Company could have gotten past the angels just like Nic's guys were able to.
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Molly moved them across the street to her house because Listen and company could get past the angel guard. That is what the Titan thought she was showing him, but it was an illusion sent by Molly, only she left out Mouse, and Harry knew that they'd only got to Maggie over Mouse's dead body and he wasn't to be seen, so he knew the vision was fake, maintained his focus and will.
But if they hadn't been moved, it sounds like Listen and Company could have gotten past the angels just like Nic's guys were able to.
It sounds like. But, I think it was a borderline case, and hence the lack of smiting doesn't PROVE they're too human.
Either Molly's favour is the Angels don't have to smite in dodgy circumstances, or they don't have to let bad guys get away with bad things on their watch. Either way, they got a favour done.
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I think what proves that they are human is that Molly needed to do the moving. The bad guys know about Michael's retirement package. If they risked go to the house is because they thought they were safe.
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I think what proves that they are human is that Molly needed to do the moving. The bad guys know about Michael's retirement package. If they risked go to the house is because they thought they were safe.
The line between human and not human is sometimes a bit vague because it is an arbitrary line. It is entirely possible that the line drawn by the angels differs from the line drawn by the white council. And even that line might be different under circumstances, that is who is accused by who and who has the right connections.
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The line between human and not human is sometimes a bit vague because it is an arbitrary line. It is entirely possible that the line drawn by the angels differs from the line drawn by the white council. And even that line might be different under circumstances, that is who is accused by who and who has the right connections.
In the case of the Turtlenecks they started out human, were kidnapped by the Fomor and were genetically altered so they could live under water, they have gills, that is what their turtlenecks hide.
So mortal? Yes.. But still human? Who knows?
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In the case of the Turtlenecks they started out human, were kidnapped by the Fomor and were genetically altered so they could live under water, they have gills, that is what their turtlenecks hide.
So mortal? Yes.. But still human? Who knows?
The physical changes might not even be the most important. Their minds are also changed.
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The physical changes might not even be the most important. Their minds are also changed.
Which is why I think it's pretty BS that Ramirez went along with the Council's party line that the Turtlenecks are human for 'screw Harry' purposes, after encouraging Molly to go all out against the mutated cultists who had been colonized by outsider servants in Cold Case. He's verging on villain at this point.
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A monster tried to eat him and you know what they say, all monsters look alike.
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Which is why I think it's pretty BS that Ramirez went along with the Council's party line that the Turtlenecks are human for 'screw Harry' purposes, after encouraging Molly to go all out against the mutated cultists who had been colonized by outsider servants in Cold Case. He's verging on villain at this point.
Council law is somewhat flexible so it can be used by council politics to get the desired effect. There is no separation of powers in the white council. As soon as they decide you are a warlock everything is allowed and they think they are right. They basically told Harry he isn’t human anymore.
And Ramirez believes the party line. He thinks it is necessary.
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Which is why I think it's pretty BS that Ramirez went along with the Council's party line that the Turtlenecks are human for 'screw Harry' purposes, after encouraging Molly to go all out against the mutated cultists who had been colonized by outsider servants in Cold Case. He's verging on villain at this point.
Considering that Carlos vaporized a fair share of them, himself, and nobody is accusing him of breaking the First Law.
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Murphy's death was IMO one of the best written parts of both books. A little wordy over the empty house bit but still well written. Harry's response as well as the Knights response was also well written.
The death part really fell flat to me. Very little impact. It was everything after, related to the death, that hit me.
Technically, I would think so, since it would be deliberate and not an accident.
Everything Jim has said on the subject leads to the conclusion that accidents don't make it not a 1st law violation. It might mitigate it.
They aren't exactly human anymore, they have gills, or can they get through simply because they are mortal?
They might be human enough for the angels. Maybe the 1st law too. I tend to think that the 1st law "no killing" might be a mistranslation like how many people mistranslate the commandment as "thou shall not kill" when it's actually "thou shall not murder." If self defense and defense of others from black magic are a justification or exception to the general rule, then maybe there are others. It wouldn't line up neatly with our distinction between murder and "killing," but it might be close.
Arjan makes a good point that since no one was there, we can't be definitive as to why they weren't smote.
The line between human and not human is sometimes a bit vague because it is an arbitrary line.
It might be a hard line that's just very complicated and hard to discern.
Considering that Carlos vaporized a fair share of them, himself, and nobody is accusing him of breaking the First Law.
Did he? Or did he vaporize some other Fomor combatants? I'll really have no idea.
And there's another issue. Is it human or mortal that we need to worry about? And what's the dividing line there?