ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Melriken on April 26, 2023, 08:10:15 PM
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Do me a favor, assume Elane is Kumori.
Assume Elane is still alive.
What does that mean for the Dresden Files and the future.
Specifically (but not limited to) the Paranet is being managed in part by Elane and signs point to the Paranet either replacing the White Council or merging with it. If Elane is Cowl's loyal apprentice and has been shaping the Paranet she will absolutely have been shaping it to replace the White Council and join Cowl's Circle (black council). This will do a LOT of damage to the forces of good (Harry).
How else is Elane positioned to cause problems and what kind of damage could she do with the Paranet?
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My bet is a paranet heel turn in the later books. Picture this: the white council breaks down over time. Harry has personally saved their asses many times, now they've turned their back on him, and Jim has thoroughly shown what happens to groups that can't adapt when they don't have a protagonist on their side. The paranet starts to become the premier magical organization in the world, since it accepts all magical types, including presumably increasing numbers of former white council refugees. These wizards train up the minor talents, making an organization of literally thousands of increasingly competent wizards, backed up by a support base fully integrated with modern tech and society. It's a nice big support structure of suitably grand scale, just in time for the BAT. But Jim pulls a Wheel of Time, and has the Paranet go full Black Tower, with our protagonist's baby suddenly turning evil, because Elaine (probably a thrall herself, her actions in Dead Beat are not logically consistent) has enthralled or influenced many commanding members of the paranet, just like peabody did with the council. They do work for the same guy after all. Plus Elaine is demomstrated using mental magic twice that I can think of, so it's not outside her skills.
Jim has repeatedly says his goal as an author is to hurt the reader, ang having Harry's big ray of hope in the paranet suddenly turn to the dark side right aa the BAT kicks off would be a great (and foreshadowed) gut punch.
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There is a very very high probability that Elaine is Nemfected.
She was mentally-dominated by DuMorne, who was an Outsider-summoner. With the big Harry/Justin fight, she fled to Summer... And who was the first Nemfected we met?
Why, it was Elaine's "patron" and primary contact in Summer, Aurora. Elaine was the very-clear vector from Justin's Outsider-influence to Aurora's corruption.
The entire Paranet is a tool of Nemesis.
And Harry laid the foundations, and handed it over.
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Evidence for E = K please. Elaine was part of the Summer Court during the Kumori episodes and there is nothing to suggest Cowl had any connections at that point in Summer.
Cowl does seem to have connections with Winter, the attack on Arctis Tor, the suborning of Lea and Maeve. Nameless has even more of a connection, with all of the above openly so covering the changelings as well, including Sarissa, and even apparently Mister.
S = K is far more probable based upon the books.
Stay on topic. The OP has asked you to work from the assumption that E=K, not to debate the validity of that theory. Work within the parameters of the discussion please. - Mod Team
It is far more likely the White Council will take a renewed interest in Elaine because she is openly using the title Wizard, and they are trying to prevent Harry using that title.
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Nemesis is limited to 13, it cannot therefore infect the entire Paranet, only bombard its members with spam and cat videos.
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Evidence for E = K please.
It's circumstantial, but she does tick a couple of boxes. There's a relatively small pool of women who meet the WOJ that it would cause Harry pain when he discovers who Kumori is - his first love going over to the dark would fit that in spades. She's tall enough to fit holding a knife to his throat. Her residual fondness for him would account for her trying to find a way to stop him from interfering short of killing him, and hesitating rather than kill him when he spoke to Bob in the end. And if Cowl is really Simon and faked his death to go dark full-time, it makes some sense Justin's master would have picked up the reigns to her enthrallment.
And it's weird that Elaine never asked him what happened to his burned hand in White Night, after last seeing him before the major injury. Except Kumori did ask him, and he answered to her.
On the other hand, Elaine seems to have helped Harry stop a couple of Nemesis plots by helping him stop Aurora and spike Cowl's own plans for the White Court.
As for the original question of what the fallout would be if she was Kumori? I suspect a lot of the Paranetters would have been taken by the Fomor ... which seemed to be happening.
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Evidence for E = K please.
I said to assume because I don’t want to turn this thread into a debate on who k is, I want to talk about the fallout if Elaine is Kumori.
Here is some evidence, but if you want to talk about IF Elaine is Kumori let’s do that in another thread.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/b2kb7n/the_many_evidences_supporting_the_notion_that_ek/
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1] Elaine is still alive, plenty of evidence of that.
2] Since Aurora went bonkers, most likely Nemfected after Elaine sought refuge at the Summer Court after Elaine fled when Harry killed Justin, it is either a real coincidence or Elaine is infected and passed it on to Aurora..
3] For all of that, no, I don't think Elaine is Kumori.
Stay on topic Mira - the OP has asked you to consider that E=K and work from that assumption. This thread isn't about debating the validity of that assumption, but discussing what happens if said assumption is correct. - Mod Team
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1] Elaine is still alive, plenty of evidence of that.
2] Since Aurora went bonkers, most likely Nemfected after Elaine sought refuge at the Summer Court after Elaine fled when Harry killed Justin, it is either a real coincidence or Elaine is infected and passed it on to Aurora..
3] For all of that, no, I don't think Elaine is Kumori.
That's why it's a listed assumption. For the conversation it doesn't matter much if Elaine is Kumori or just Nemfected so take that assumption... What damage does she do?
Jim wants to torment readers through Harry, so my guess is Elaine will oversee the Paranet merging with the White Council and then leaks security information on the council and creates a second Archangel (ironic because if Elaine is Kumori then Simon Pietrovich is likely Cowl and was responsible for Archangel too) and my guess is tries to blame Ramirez for it (or Luccio, but I think she goes after Carlos) and failing that splinters the Paranet and compromises a LOT of the council secrets in the process (the paranet having taken over communications for the council)
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That's why it's a listed assumption. For the conversation it doesn't matter much if Elaine is Kumori or just Nemfected so take that assumption... What damage does she do?
Jim wants to torment readers through Harry, so my guess is Elaine will oversee the Paranet merging with the White Council and then leaks security information on the council and creates a second Archangel (ironic because if Elaine is Kumori then Simon Pietrovich is likely Cowl and was responsible for Archangel too) and my guess is tries to blame Ramirez for it (or Luccio, but I think she goes after Carlos) and failing that splinters the Paranet and compromises a LOT of the council secrets in the process (the paranet having taken over communications for the council)
A lot of damage, but I don't buy it.
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Nemesis is limited to 13 ...
Cite, please?
I know it as a popular fantheory, but I know of no "canon" or WoJ on the topic.
... it cannot therefore infect the entire Paranet...
If a few key leaders -- Elaine, 1-2 other key/influential Paranetters -- are Nemfected, the entire Paranet would trend in whatever direction Nemesis wants, and most info known to the Paranet would be known to Nemesis... and mostly, Nemesis would act to prevent critical info from flowing up to Harry, or to Carlos/Wardens, etc.
It's worth considering that Carlos had a fair number of interactions with Elaine, but she didn't try to tell him about "Grey Cloak" sightings associated with multiple practitioner-deaths in multiple cities. I suspect she had a good feel for him as a reasonably honest, decent guy... why not put him on guard?
... only bombard its members with spam and cat videos.
Arguably worse than Nemfection.
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Cite, please?
I know it as a popular fantheory, but I know of no "canon" or WoJ on the topic.
There's a WOJ that there is an upper limit on the number of beings it can control at once. Which makes sense, because if it could just spread without limit and infect all the (non-starborn) mortal population, it probably already would have won that way.
It's fan theory that the number of the cap is 13, though.
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There's a WOJ that there is an upper limit on the number of beings it can control at once. Which makes sense, because if it could just spread without limit and infect all the (non-starborn) mortal population, it probably already would have won that way.
It's fan theory that the number of the cap is 13, though.
I'm more the fan of 3 at once, but yea. There is a defined limit, we just don't know for certain.
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It’s 13, Corner Hounds are just a single Outsider with 13 bodies, that is made clear in Peace Talks.
The Corner Hounds though create bodies from Ectoplasm from the Never Never, they are the only animating spirits, in possession they are taking on beings with differing Wills and Power levels against whom they are competing. Nemesis was forced out of Lea we saw a battle wills which Lea won, with the help of Mab. Nemesis probably had their entire essence imbued in Lea, passed to Maeve and then to Justine.
Justine can split off into another 12 mortals weakening her, perhaps allowing Justine and the baby to overwhelm their fragment of Nemesis. Nemesis was likely whole when facing Harry before Demonreach they would need their full power for that.
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It’s 13, Corner Hounds are just a single Outsider with 13 bodies, that is made clear in Peace Talks...
I don't see that the Cornerhounds' 13 says anything about Nemesis.
I suspect the "correct" answer might be "however many this story requires."
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Do me a favor, assume Elane is Kumori.
Assume Elane is still alive.
What does that mean for the Dresden Files and the future.
Specifically (but not limited to) the Paranet is being managed in part by Elane and signs point to the Paranet either replacing the White Council or merging with it. If Elane is Cowl's loyal apprentice and has been shaping the Paranet she will absolutely have been shaping it to replace the White Council and join Cowl's Circle (black council). This will do a LOT of damage to the forces of good (Harry).
How else is Elane positioned to cause problems and what kind of damage could she do with the Paranet?
Why are we not assuming Elaine is alive? Last she was seen was helping the Paranet.
Even so, even if she went "missing", I wouldn't necessarily assume she was dead. Too much writing potential in the character - and unfinished business with Harry for sure.
If Harry learns Elaine is Kumori, it will only add to his trauma. Given Harry's history...that makes it more likely.
I am not sure I agree that she is shaping the Paranet into some sort of weapon, except perhaps in terms of information gathering (which is powerful enough in it's own right). Not to mention, she clearly has the names and locations of the members (which gives her plenty of power over them, and could sell them out or have them eliminated if she chose).
See, the thing about Elaine is she is Harry's foil in some ways. She is so like him yet more pragmatic. Harry is almost pathologically driven to protect his ideals. Elaine is far more pragmatic about hers. Which is another reason why she might be Kumori. Elaine might see that the best way to protect humanity and ensure its future is to work with Cowl, to "end death" as Kumori put it. But she is also rebellious. I wonder if she is as under the thumb of Cowl as we think...Kumori chose to save someone she didn't have to, and while it furthered Cowl's aims somewhat, she could have far more easily simply raised some zombies or spectres. She chose to try and save someone, and Harry noted this. Kumori is an idealist, but also a pragmatist. Elaine seems quite similar. My personal theory is that Elaine is Enthralled in such a complex series of spells she hardly knows she is a thrall (this was explained by Bob when discussing how Enthrallment works in Blood Rites I believe, where Harry specifically likens fine Enthralling to what Justin did to Elaine...the second book Elaine shows up in - a long-term hint). This of course is lends further weight to the whole Cowl = Justin theory, given Justin was the first to Enthrall her.
Further, I think Elaine would likely be trying to warn Harry and reveal herself in the process. But it would cost her. I think Harry would be further torn between trying to save her (Harry's biggest weakness is his white knight tendencies) and being angry at her. Long term I suspect he probably ends up killing her like Susan, or she dies to save him. I can't see her surviving the series. She might help him kill Cowl though, so there is something in that potentially.
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It’s 13, Corner Hounds are just a single Outsider with 13 bodies, that is made clear in Peace Talks.
and... Nemesis is a corner hound? Walker's come in a trifecta. It's definitely a Walker, would be far more likely to have a running motif than a random connection to the precise number of another Outside. I know of no other connection between corner hound numbers and Nemesis.
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Nemesis is an Outsider, as are the Corner Hounds.
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A species doesn't set the phenotype for a whole genus tho.
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But are they? Outsiders manifest a body from Ectoplasm their biology may not even be biological.
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Nemesis is an Outsider, as are the Corner Hounds.
Lash emphasized the Walkers as extraordinary foes, even among Outsiders; I would not presume them to have a "13 bodies" rule just because Cornerhounds do.
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Why are we not assuming Elaine is alive? Last she was seen was helping the Paranet.
I was talking with someone who thought Kumori was dead and had died in Deadbeat in the backwash of the failed Dark Hallow, we have seen Elaine since then, but I just wanted to avoid any conversation in that direction...
If Harry learns Elaine is Kumori, it will only add to his trauma. Given Harry's history...that makes it more likely.
This is the piece of evidence that most points to it being Elaine to me, there just aren't that many women who are tall enough to hold a knife to Harry's throat and he cares about enough to be hurt finding out they are Kumori...
I am not sure I agree that she is shaping the Paranet into some sort of weapon, except perhaps in terms of information gathering (which is powerful enough in it's own right). Not to mention, she clearly has the names and locations of the members (which gives her plenty of power over them, and could sell them out or have them eliminated if she chose).
Not a weapon, but something to steal the Council's secrets and work against them with... yes, that seems the best use of the Paranet to hurt (or help, but lets be honest...) Harry.
My personal theory is that Elaine is Enthralled in such a complex series of spells she hardly knows she is a thrall (this was explained by Bob when discussing how Enthrallment works in Blood Rites I believe, where Harry specifically likens fine Enthralling to what Justin did to Elaine...the second book Elaine shows up in - a long-term hint). This of course is lends further weight to the whole Cowl = Justin theory, given Justin was the first to Enthrall her.
My Personal theory at this point is that Simon had Enthralled Justin, Justin did Elaine and tried to do Harry but it wasn't truly who Justin was, so he was fighting against it and that tipped the scales when Harry fought back, Justin's heart wasn't in the fight so his magic didn't quite work right and that gave Harry enough advantage to win. Simon may not be the head of the snake either but I think Simon survived (caused) Archangel and is Cowl.
Further, I think Elaine would likely be trying to warn Harry and reveal herself in the process. But it would cost her. I think Harry would be further torn between trying to save her (Harry's biggest weakness is his white knight tendencies) and being angry at her. Long term I suspect he probably ends up killing her like Susan, or she dies to save him. I can't see her surviving the series. She might help him kill Cowl though, so there is something in that potentially.
Agreed, especially if she is enthralled, she likely breaks that and protects him, dying in the process.
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Honestly I don't see the E=K theory, simply because we know Aurora got her claws into Elaine.
I cannot see Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize -- being able to implement an enthrallment, or even just an Oath compelling obedience, without the Summer Lady noticing.
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I don't think Elaine actually knows she's a thrall at all. Bob mentioned enthralling someone so finely they don't even know it. I think this why only kumori asks about his hand. Look at it like this, during DB, Justin/cowl had come to her and "activated" her thralldom. After DB, when kumori asks him about his hand, she's ordered not to remember what she's done as kumori. But it's like Mab hiding Harry's blasting rod, she can't even touch the edges of those memories. An since cowl didn't know she found out about Harry's hand as kumori, she's later unable to actually acknowledge why she doesn't need to ask about it beyond,"the Michael Jackson look". Like, she never even directly addresses the burn. Just obliquely mentions it. Something we've seen similar of out of fae programming.
I cannot see Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize
wait, what?🤔🧐
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Honestly I don't see the E=K theory, simply because we know Aurora got her claws into Elaine.
I cannot see Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize -- being able to implement an enthrallment, or even just an Oath compelling obedience, without the Summer Lady noticing.
It would be Simon doing an enthrallment that wasn't absolute or oppressive, just something that tips scales here and there and hiding it behind Justin's previous work keeping in mind that Simon taught Justin everything he knew.
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... Cowl -- even if he is "Nameless" the demgod of discord, as some theorize -- ...
... wait, what?🤔🧐
Recent Dresden short "The Law" (released AFAIK only on Amazon (Kindle/Audible)) has a character who goes by "Nameless." User @ConspiracyTheorist (here on ParanetOnline) argues strongly that this character is the same as we've previously seen as "Cowl."
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just as an aside, we've seen this a few places E=K, and a rationalization because she could hold a knife to Harry's throat. I just held a pen parallel to the floor, like a knife, standing a foot from a wall (as if I was against someone's back and reached forward). About 5" above my head. Harry's 6'9" to the top of his head. Top of my head is about 10" above the traps, which is the base of the throat in front. So, for harry? 5'11? You can reach 5" up? So she only has to be 5'6", a LOT of women qualify.
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just as an aside, we've seen this a few places E=K, and a rationalization because she could hold a knife to Harry's throat. I just held a pen parallel to the floor, like a knife, standing a foot from a wall (as if I was against someone's back and reached forward). About 5" above my head. Harry's 6'9" to the top of his head. Top of my head is about 10" above the traps, which is the base of the throat in front. So, for harry? 5'11? You can reach 5" up? So she only has to be 5'6", a LOT of women qualify.
The more you extend your reach -- particularly outside the "right in front of your torso" space -- the weaker you are. Reaching up *over* your head is a particularly weak space, except for a up-and-down motions (power-lifting, chin-up's etc); slitting a throat is side-to-side. A small person "reaching up" that way is a very-precarious sort of threat; a swift move from Harry would easily take the knife away from his throat.
If the woman holding a knife at Harry's throat were small -- and given the stakes -- I think Harry would have gone for it.
Overall, though, I agree that "tall" isn't a solid piece of data to pin the Kumori-ID upon; at most, it just excludes the shorter women.