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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on February 08, 2022, 02:50:44 PM
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Who chained the doors at Pell's Theater?
Rashid did it for Mab. How do we infer this? If Mab created the path for Harry to get to Arctis Tor then a mortal ally of Mab had to do it. And only Mab would have cared about keeping mortals out of the building. Rashid had both the "ways" and the means.
Who was Sandra Marling?
Maeve. How do we infer this? Butcher does a specific call back when he has Maeve summoned to Mac's by Lilly. He reminds the reader that Jenny Greenteeth could impersonate a human well enough to convince Will she was Georgia. Jenny Greenteeth is killed prior to PG by the Alphas in Something Borrowed. Harry uses this to blackmail Maeve.
If you need another clue bat from Butcher to help you get to this point, in Cold Days he has Lady Molly seen using a cell phone.
Enough for today.
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Pell’s old creepyhorror movie theatre may have been a congruency to where the phobophages dwell in Winter, near Arctis Tor, no need to create a route, one existed already. Nice and near to Mab’s ice dungeon in Arctis Tor and a possible congruency to Demonreach.
Mab or Maeve could not have chained it, an iron or steel chain and padlock, her mortal agent normally is the Winter Knight, but Lloyd Slate was at this point otherwise engaged (learning about the art of scrimshaw from Lacuna) but Rashid yes, an indicator that this is a stop in the journey to Demonreach which Rashid does indeed know how to get to.
Sandra Marling? Nope. More likely a White Court hanger on, she was able to get Darby Crane as GOH after all for a first time Convention, you only get a GOH in those circumstances if the Chair knows the GOH, likely offering up a gourmet all you can eat buffet to a fear vampire.
Have you run a Convention? Maeve didn’t have her shit together to run her duties as the Winter Lady, I doubt she could run a Convention (Molly did both foreshadowing her organisational skills as Winter Lady). The Jenny Greenteeth thing is much more Her style
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Possible, but leaves you having to explain why their were fetches in the theater and why it was locked.
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Because they had come out their and the chain wasn’t to keep people out, it was to keep the Fetches in until they were needed.
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Where were they waiting to go?
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They could come and go, but unless the doors were unchained they were stuck. Thomas could enter/egress the Never Never through strip clubs, Darby Crane could likely do the same in Pell’s Theatre just like the Fetches, but not be affected by the iron. He would know this was an access point he could use.
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Given that Madrigal was meant to die that seems a stretch.
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Given that Madrigal was meant to die that seems a stretch.
He didn’t know that. Splattercon was being manipulated by a couple of elements within the Winter Court, Mab and Maeves people. Molly got on Mab’s radar opening options for replacement of Marve, and Mab was still after Harry as Winter Knight, Molly as potential leverage.
Maeve was looking to facilitate the Black Council in their attempt to retrieve Lea/scout the backdoor to Demonreach. Darby was a stalking horse, cover for Maeve. The Black Council at this point already had their hooks into in the White Court and used them mercilessly.
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My speculation is that Madrigal was a big ugly brass door knocker whose purpose was to get the WC back to Chicago. Harry was meant to kill him. They almost fight in the hotel the first time they meet.
Given the events of Turn Coat it would be a good guess to say that Peabody(Black Council) was the source of the idea to have the first trial in Chicago. Harry had a violent reaction to the killing of the warlock. Now imagine Molly being dragged in with no warning. This is what I suspect the plan was. Harry then dies at the hands of the Senior Council, but maybe gets lucky before that and takes out the Merlin before dying. It's how I would construct the plot.
Uriel has to be involved in the plot. Michael is moved out of Chicago. Why? Because he can't save his daughter since she has done Black Magic. Harry can, if he has the time. The plot is designed to give him the time. This is point out in the narrative by Rashid's actions at the second trial.
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But Michael is back in time to save his daughter and with the baby Wardens and Eb in tow, definitely Uriel’s work.
If the Black Council had a rogue Denarian on it then they would have known Molly was Michaels daughter, so the Molly plot was aimed both at Harry and Michael, remove the longest serving Knight from the board together with the pain in ass wizard from Chicago in one go.
We only see Harry’s adventures, it’s is likely Michael had himself previously been a considerable thorn in the Black Council’s side. Could Siriothrax have been Black Council? His death an earlier attempt to corrupt a sword? Ruined by Michael and Charity falling in love? Inviting Ferro to the party in Grave Peril in the anticipation Harry would bring Michael could have been an earlier attempt to take out Michael. They had the Sword at that point. Michael however struck exactly the right note with Ferro destroying that plot.
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Yes and no. Without Harry Molly would have died. Michael couldn't have changed that. To save Molly you first had to save Harry. Other then getting him out of Chicago until he could solve the mystery there is no reason for Harry to go to Arctis Tor.
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Mab wasn’t going to kill Molly, only the White Council were interested in killing her as a Warlock.
To be blunt, Her abduction was saving her from the known attention of the White Council, in hindsight Harry was warned of a Warlock in Chicago by the Gatekeeper who we only subsequently found out was in league with Mab. The Gatekeeper surveyed the possible futures and nudged events towards the desired future of Harry apprenticed to Molly (see the Molly soul Gaze)
The Gatekeeper senses a Warlock, is prescient about her role in future events, alerts Harry and ropes in Mab to keep her safe by abducting her with indication of a new Winter Lady candidate, until Harry can collect her and take her to the White Council where their co-conspirator Uriel has arranged Michael to come out as the saviour of the Baby Wizards, just when they are ready to execute Molly.
It’s the Gatekeeper manipulating events so Harry gains Molly as an apprentice, who will eventually replace Maeve as Winter Lady, which is also vital to both Mab and Uriel’s future plans. There were absolutely no coincidences.
In tandem to this you have Crane/Madrigal setting up Splattercon as his own buffet, and opening the backdoor to Arctis Tor, the Convention and attacks would firm up the link to the Fetches abode in the Never Never in Pell’s theatre, allowing the Black Council to use it to ‘rescue’ Lea/ survey the Backdoor to Demonreach in Mab’s Ice Dungeon. We have to presume Mab was aware of an attack by the Black Council, what surprised her was the Denarian involvement.
It’s clear The Gatekeeper, Mab and Uriel (Plus Vadderung and Hades) have been working together throughout the entirety of the Files. We only really see this from the end of Ghost Story onwards.
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Rashid never looked into the future. He never needed to. Molly was set up a year in advance. Proven Guilty actually begins in Dead Beat when Jim sets the time that Arctis Tor was attacked. Shortly thereafter Molly is arrested and put in diversion and starts working at the halfway house with Sandra Marling where she meets Nelson and Rosie. About two weeks before the start of PG Sandra Marling gives Molly the idea of using fear and Molly mind rapes both Nelson and Rosie. She has, 10 days before the book begins, broken one of the Laws. If she is caught before Harry can figure it out they will both die. The last event happens just before the first trial. Pell is attacked and Nelson is arrested. After that at some point Pell's theater is locked and the first trial opens the book. Rashid is not present. This is the setup for Proven Guilty.
How did Rashid know that Black Magic had been used by Molly?
Why was Pell attacked and who ordered it?
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In tandem to this you have Crane/Madrigal setting up Splattercon as his own buffet, and opening the backdoor to Arctis Tor, the Convention and attacks would firm up the link to the Fetches abode in the Never Never in Pell’s theatre, allowing the Black Council to use it to ‘rescue’ Lea/ survey the Backdoor to Demonreach in Mab’s Ice Dungeon. We have to presume Mab was aware of an attack by the Black Council, what surprised her was the Denarian involvement.
What Backdoor to Demonreach is in Arctis Tour?
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One of my (Many) theories is that Demonreach backs onto Mab’s ice Sculpture Dungeon in Arctis Tor. Both keep prisoners in stasis in a fortress. It’s a better fit than Tartarus, and the connection between Merlin and Mab makes this more likely.
It explains why most people won’t use this route, the only two people who have were Rashid and Maeve, who both would have or had access. The attack on Arctis Tor was in part to reconnoiter this route. Mab doesn’t use this route because she knows how dangerous the Demonreach end of the route is, she wouldn’t step on the island from a yacht so appearing suddenly from the Never Never would concern her. Alfred can clearly take her down, and until more recently so would Harry.
This opens up a possibility of a congruency existing between Castle Dresden and the Winter Knights Quarters in Arctis Tor, creating a route from Castle Dresden to the Winter Knights quarters via the Never Never a quick bit of parkour to the ice dungeon and then from the Never Never to Demonreach. A nice secure quick route for Harry. I would hope Next Book establishes something like this now Harry is on better terms with Mab.
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That would tend to disagree with the text. The central plot has two branches. Molly's and Eb's. Eb's branch is to answer the question, why did Mab not retaliate. The answer to that lies in Dead Beat. Not in Proven Guilty. There may be a portal in the Garden at Arctis Tor, but if so it had nothing to do with what happened. But no matter what happened the question must be answered in some fashion or the plot makes no sense. Ergo, the answer is in the text and we just don't see it.
The text supports the idea that Namshiel never went in the Court Yard. when Harry and the others enter at Arctis Tor the entrance is clogged with bones and the bones fan out from the Gate and the external walls are pitted.
I'll give you a scenario but won't defend it. During Dead Beat the Black Council in collusion with Lucifer has the fortress attacked. Maeve opens a way in the theater that puts Namshiel in close. The purpose of the attack is to pin Mab at the fortress and make her believe that Summer took part. Only one of the Queens could open a way this close to the fortress and Mab is not sure who did it. She suspects Summer. Thus she arrays her force against Summer and does not strike back. Since she is down a bishop and a knight.
Lilly is a fly in Maeve's ointment. Neither Maeve nor Mab expect Harry to throw Summer Fire at the Well. By doing so she causes all Winters forces to return to the fortress leaving the border unguarded. Summer supports the Council in their attack on the Reds. This accomplishes two things. Since Summer doesn't attack her when her troops pull back she now knows that Summer was not part of the attack. This shines a spotlight on Maeve.
I don't say this is how the plot worked but it answers all the questions that need to be answered.
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That would tend to disagree with the text. The central plot has two branches. Molly's and Eb's. Eb's branch is to answer the question, why did Mab not retaliate. The answer to that lies in Dead Beat. Not in Proven Guilty. There may be a portal in the Garden at Arctis Tor, but if so it had nothing to do with what happened. But no matter what happened the question must be answered in some fashion or the plot makes no sense. Ergo, the answer is in the text and we just don't see it.
Or because she was infected, Mab wasn't in any shape to retaliate.. She wasn't just hiding in the ice garden along side of Lea in Proven Guilty, she was taking the cure along side of her. It gave the Denarians and their allies an opening, because they sensed that she was vulnerable, and they attacked. Who could have sent word of Mab's vulnerability? Maeve of course..
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Count the pieces on the chessboard. With an eye to the balance of the courts. Butcher feeds you there answer.
He has Harry present a rationale that you can compare against what really happens later.
Maeve is selling the idea that Mab is Nemfected to the Summer Lady. “All right,” I murmured. “Mab’s got a man in the penalty box. She wants to take the offensive before Summer pushes a power play, and she’s looking for ways to even the odds. If Summer goes running off to take on the Reds, it will give her a chance to strike.” I shook my head. “I don’t pretend to know Mab very well, but she isn’t suicidal. If the imbalance is so dangerous, why is she keeping the Winter Knight alive to begin with? And she must see what the consequences of another Winter-Summer war would be.” I looked back and forth between them. “Right?”
“Unfortunately,” Lily said quietly, “our intelligence about the internal politics of Winter is very limited—and Mab is not the sort to reveal her mind to another. I do not know if she realizes the potential danger. Her actions of late have been…” She closed her eyes for a moment and then said, with some obvious effort, “Erratic.”
The second paragraph is Maeve's con. The first paragraph is for contrast when Harry throws Summer Fire at Winters Wellspring. Mab tells him why Slate lives in another book.
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Count the pieces on the chessboard. With an eye to the balance of the courts. Butcher feeds you there answer.
He has Harry present a rationale that you can compare against what really happens later.
Maeve is selling the idea that Mab is Nemfected to the Summer Lady. The second paragraph is Maeve's con. The first paragraph is for contrast when Harry throws Summer Fire at Winters Wellspring. Mab tells him why Slate lives in another book.
But was it a con? I don't think it was, you forget that we saw Mab with the Knife in her belt. She isn't immune to the effects of the Knife anymore than Lea or Maeve herself were. I think Mab realized it sooner than Lea did and got her monoclono antibodies before the infection could fully take hold, thus she was able, barely to direct her defense. However Maeve didn't know, by this time she was full blown bat shit and betrayed her mother.
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Well I never say never anymore, but in the context of the story it is what it is. The question drives the plot of Cold Days.
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We simply do not have all the information to say something or other definitive about Mab or her motives. Look at how she was presented originally as a Evil Faerie Queen as opposed to the more nuanced representations in the later books, as the great defender of humanity. I think that process has yet reached its ultimate end, and the likelihood is that the end result isn’t going to be black and white. Mab is going to turn out to be a VERY complex character with everything we have seen to date only parts of that character.
Basically You are probably both wrong, or probably both right.
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I suspect that Butcher has had a fairly good idea about Mab's destination as a character since day one. He's tuned it as he's gone along, but she was never written as the evil faerie. Butcher says that constantly, but what he writes is quite different. But the plot has certain elements that must be served. If the story is a mystery, then the central mystery must be solved within the covers.
The book has two. You are handed one mystery by Eb. Why didn't Mab retaliate? Then Rashid hands out the second mystery. Who is using Black Magic in Chicago? IMO as a reader these have to be solved in the book or the book falls apart. The narrative would be incomplete. That isn't to say that there are not other things going on. But the two central mysteries are solved.
Butcher encourages confusion for readers. He uses Bob very effectively as an unreliable narrator. Rashid's letter specifically calls out when the Black Magic is done. Yet he has Bob supply a red herring in terms of how and when Rashid knew what he knew. You may be sure that it wasn't that happy horse crap about getting messages from the future and paradox. Paradox occurs when you break cause and effect. Everything about the Black Magic was over and done with before the first trial.
In the case of the first example, Harry tells you what Mab expects. To be back stabbed by Summer. When he has the forces of Winter returning to the fortress he shows you that it isn't true and that Summer, in fact, is not out to attack her because of the power imbalance.
I have no idea what Mab is up to or where the backstory is going. I doubt Butcher does in detail. But the things I'm throwing out aren't about those issues.
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We simply do not have all the information to say something or other definitive about Mab or her motives. Look at how she was presented originally as a Evil Faerie Queen as opposed to the more nuanced representations in the later books, as the great defender of humanity. I think that process has yet reached its ultimate end, and the likelihood is that the end result isn’t going to be black and white. Mab is going to turn out to be a VERY complex character with everything we have seen to date only parts of that character.
Basically You are probably both wrong, or probably both right.
I've never thought that Mab was evil. Why? Because Winter is a force of Nature, Winter can be cruel but that doesn't make it evil, and without it, the world would be worse off.
Harry at first sees her as evil because that is how he perceives his godmother, Lea. Why? Difference of opinion on how to keep him safe, he fears her and by extension everything else about the Winter Court.
As Harry gets to know Mab and understand her and Lea better, he comes to realize that she is indeed a complicated creature, perhaps even a likable one, once he comes to understand her better.
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Rashid still considered it a possibility Harry had been coopted by the enemy because of all the hinky stuff he'd been adjacent to up until their conversation a few books later in TC.
I'd tend to read what he did in PG, and events that he might have been an unseen hand behind, as tests of Harry's alignment as much as favours to support Mab.
Perhaps he chained up the theater to keep his test under a measure of control.
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When you consider it, Rashid's motivation doesn't matter. He never had to trust Harry. Mab has motivation, she is standing in for Lea. If Lea had a deal to protect Harry then Mab has no choice then to do what Lea would do. The only person Rashid had to trust was Mab.
"It means that I will give you what she might give you," Mab said, "and speak what knowledge she might have spoken to you were she here in flesh, rather than in proxy."
And you know by Changes she has been doing a lot to make sure Harry survives.