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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Ed0517 on August 06, 2021, 06:23:03 AM
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Not his style, but.... the White Council has not tried to run him out of Demonreach - maybe that is not a WC job. Who had it before Harry?
Between that and the Eye, he has some serious power. Baron Marcone showed a human can sign. He needs two members to sign for him - Mab and Vadderung would likely step up.
Yes, he is the Winter Knight, but that is an AGENT of the Court, not PART of it. He not Sidhe, he is still human (mostly)
Then whacking him might be seen as an act of war against a signatory nation...
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He might as Wizard of Chicago, just to needle Marcone who'd then have to come out into the open and admit he is a Denarian.
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I think that he could, he could already get two Accords members to vouch for him -- potentially more. I think River Shoulders said they would join the Accords.
(Note: I don't think that Mab would sign for him, it would restrict her Knight too much).
Overall, I think this is an excellent idea and "Wizard of Chicago" has the quality of a title to it.
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I think that he could, he could already get two Accords members to vouch for him -- potentially more. I think River Shoulders said they would join the Accords.
(Note: I don't think that Mab would sign for him, it would restrict her Knight too much).
Overall, I think this is an excellent idea and "Wizard of Chicago" has the quality of a title to it.
With the added bonus of not only pissing Marcone off because he considers Chicago his domain plus with the Namshiel coin a wizard... It would also upset the White Council, if Harry wasn't off limits as the Winter Knight, he just might be as a full member of the Accords.
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Not his style, but.... the White Council has not tried to run him out of Demonreach - maybe that is not a WC job. Who had it before Harry?
Between that and the Eye, he has some serious power. Baron Marcone showed a human can sign. He needs two members to sign for him - Mab and Vadderung would likely step up.
Yes, he is the Winter Knight, but that is an AGENT of the Court, not PART of it. He not Sidhe, he is still human (mostly)
Then whacking him might be seen as an act of war against a signatory nation...
We don't know, and we don't know before that, but before that was Kemmler.
I think the analog of 7 Laws of Magic and 7 Senior Council members isn't by chance or mystic numeracy- I think originally it was the 7 roles associated with maintaining the Laws. Maybe mantles- evidence Listens-to-Wind's shapechanging- maybe not.
The Gatekeeper is probably responsible for the Outer Gates, the Blackstaff for killing with magic, for instance.
I tend to think the Warden was the original, and some Warden down the line founded the wardens as assistants/potential replacements. Part of the Merlin wanting Harry off the Council may be because if the Warden, he's in charge, not Luccio.
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My stab at seven titles of Merlin Emrys that have been disseminated.
- Blackstaff - 1st Law - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
- Beastmaster - 2nd Law - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
- Mindkeeper - 3rd Law - Langtry uses incredible mind magic in Turn Coat.
- Warden - 4th Law - Warden can command inmates on work release.
- Lifeguard - 5th Law -
- Timelord - 6th Law -
- Gatekeeper - 7th Law - Rashid oversees the Gates.
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Here's what I would think about. I could see Jim making Harry a signatory to the accords, a recognized power in his own right. The thing is, Jim wants to keep Harry as a medium sized fish, not a big fish. So, if Harry picks up this type of power, it has to be balanced; probably by added responsibility to weigh him down, and of course, added danger. Being one person, Harry doesn't have Valkyries, Hugin and Muninn or Einherjar he can call on to do his dirty work. Harry only has Toot and company he can order around. I would wonder how this might gimp him.
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My stab at seven titles of Merlin Emrys that have been disseminated.
- Blackstaff - 1st Law - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
- Beastmaster - 2nd Law - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
- Mindkeeper - 3rd Law - Langtry uses incredible mind magic in Turn Coat.
- Warden - 4th Law - Warden can command inmates on work release.
- Lifeguard - 5th Law -
- Timelord - 6th Law -
- Gatekeeper - 7th Law - Rashid oversees the Gates.
Most of that stacks up, I think. But I seem to remember Jim saying the Merlin was actually using advanced air magic to do his communication spell in Turn Coat. Because using mind magic would presumably break the laws of magic.
I would probably choose Langtry is the Time Lord, who governs the 6th law. So for me it would be:
- Blackstaff - 1st Law (Murder) - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
- Beastmaster - 2nd Law (Polymorphing) - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
- Mindkeeper - 3rd Law (Mind Invasion) - La Fortier's specialty was illusions. As he is dead, Cristos goes here despite being an Earth mage.
- Warden - 4th Law (Enthrallment) - Warden can command inmates on work release. Previously Simon perhaps, depending on his speciality and possibly as a candidate for being a Warden after Kemmler. Maybe Ancient Mai takes this role being the most skilled enchanter on the Council.
- Lifeguard - 5th Law (Necromancy) - Martha Liberty's use of the loa and spirits
- Timelord - 6th Law (Time Travel) - The OG Merlin used TT to create Demonreach, maybe that knowledge is part of being the Merlin now (like Presidential "Eyes Only")
- Gatekeeper - 7th Law (Gateing) - Rashid oversees the Gates.
I think though, all things considered, that only the Gatekeeper (Rashid) and the Merlin (Langtry) are in the roles of old. At one point there was only the OG Merlin Emrys doing it all. The Blackstaff came after he left/died because the Council's enemies were exploiting their limitations. Which I originally took to mean using mortals to attack the Council...but perhaps also meaning using things like Time Travel, Necromancy (like in Dead Beat where the Council couldn't have got close enough to the Darkhallow without using Necromancy to shield themselves), being unable to contend with mind mages and enthralments and transmogrifiers (polymorphers), and of course course whatever advantage the Outside provides. I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that the Gatekeeper has to break the 7th Law in order to do his job. Maybe not all the time, but probably a lot of the time.
So perhaps the OG Merlin appointed his Council leaders based on their specialty against the Seven Laws. On thinking about it some more, it would have made more sense for there to be 13 Senior Council members, considering that's the maximum that can be used in a spell. So it seems that it's very deliberate that there is only 7. Which is a point in favor of it being in related to the Laws of Magic.
We don't know, and we don't know before that, but before that was Kemmler.
I tend to think the Warden was the original, and some Warden down the line founded the wardens as assistants/potential replacements. Part of the Merlin wanting Harry off the Council may be because if the Warden, he's in charge, not Luccio.
Great theory btw.
Jim knows who the two previous two are. I am pretty sure it's Simon and either Justin or Margaret Le Fay. Considering all three are "dead" it's hard to get any more information at this stage. Being random wizards doesn't feel right...and I can't really see it being anyone we've met like McCoy or Rashid. We know it isn't any of the Senior Council per Jim as that would set the others upon whoever took up the mantle. So that only really leaves significant wizards in the last century that are no longer hanging around i.e. dead, missing, or keeping a low profile.
I agree though that the original Warden was just Merlin, and then the concept of the Wardens grew out of that.
To be honest, I doubt the Council was very big originally. Maybe less than a hundred wizards globally. Maybe not even twenty who signed on. I can imagine there would have been plenty of resistance too. But by being organised and resourceful, I suspect Merlin overcame significant adversaries (and the fact he himself was a complete badass). So he effectively conquered the wizarding world. In many ways not all that different to Voldemort or Grindelwald. Just happened to be to write the history books (or his supporters did), and so comes off as the good guy. Any bastard who conquers their neighbours to form a larger group is not going to be all that "good". Look at the formation of any country from smaller states and cities. It's normally fairly bloody yet often the conqueror comes off as a hero of sorts. Sure, people band together to take on big threats. I don't doubt that's often the case - and indeed likely the case in the Dresden Files. But it doesn't mean they didn't end up absorbing some less-than-willing elements through might.
To the OP - Definitely could see Dresden signing on...although he hardly needs to as Winter Knight, already being of Winter. Then again, Kringle is a vassal of Winter yet Vadderung is not so perhaps it might work something like that. A matter of what hat Harry is wearing (despite almost never wearing hats). He would need the signing of two current members of the Accords. I could see Vadderung signing off, and perhaps Molly or Mab (unless they don't want him to...). Another possibility is River Shoulders should he become and Accords member, or the Archive, or even Lara. Even Marcone might agree for a deal, but I can't see Harry asking. I suspect the main reason Dresden would sign on is to get the protections for Chicago both from external threats and internal threats. As a secondary reason, to protect himself from the White Council (and to a lesser extent, Mab). The real question is when he would do it. Now (as in Twelve Months)? Or perhaps after some sort of ascension or power-up?
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Not his style, but.... the White Council has not tried to run him out of Demonreach - maybe that is not a WC job. Who had it before Harry?
Between that and the Eye, he has some serious power. Baron Marcone showed a human can sign. He needs two members to sign for him - Mab and Vadderung would likely step up.
Yes, he is the Winter Knight, but that is an AGENT of the Court, not PART of it. He not Sidhe, he is still human (mostly)
Then whacking him might be seen as an act of war against a signatory nation...
I think Jim said that anyone can become a member but it comes with risks. Like you have to be able to actually back stuff up. Didn't Harry in the book talk about it as well? I thought he mentioned like a shapeshifter being a signatory or something like that.
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My stab at seven titles of Merlin Emrys that have been disseminated.
- Blackstaff - 1st Law - Eb kills those at Casaverde.
- Beastmaster - 2nd Law - Listens uses incredible shifting magic.
- Mindkeeper - 3rd Law - Langtry uses incredible mind magic in Turn Coat.
- Warden - 4th Law - Warden can command inmates on work release.
- Lifeguard - 5th Law -
- Timelord - 6th Law -
- Gatekeeper - 7th Law - Rashid oversees the Gates.
Just my opinion but the 7 laws aren't related to the 7 Members. I think the 7 members are because the number 7 is significant in some beliefs.
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Just my opinion but the 7 laws aren't related to the 7 Members. I think the 7 members are because the number 7 is significant in some beliefs.
I think it may have been 7 Senior Council members, one with some kind of role for each law. But for the life of me, I can't really see how it fits together.
The Gatekeeper's role and connection to a law seems obvious, but what is the law connected to "The Warden"? It can't be just black magic -- only one (arguably two, now) prisoner even qualifies as human. Black magic is only a human relevant concept.
In any event, I doubt that it's actually worked out that way for maybe a millennium even if there was once a linkage. The Council just doesn't function as intended and does not seem to be fit for purpose anymore.
I mean, Kemmler apparently had Harry's job as The Warden once upon a time. How much more evidence do we need that the Council is completely FUBAR.
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I think it may have been 7 Senior Council members, one with some kind of role for each law. But for the life of me, I can't really see how it fits together.
The Gatekeeper's role and connection to a law seems obvious, but what is the law connected to "The Warden"? It can't be just black magic -- only one (arguably two, now) prisoner even qualifies as human. Black magic is only a human relevant concept.
In any event, I doubt that it's actually worked out that way for maybe a millennium even if there was once a linkage. The Council just doesn't function as intended and does not seem to be fit for purpose anymore.
I mean, Kemmler apparently had Harry's job as The Warden once upon a time. How much more evidence do we need that the Council is completely FUBAR.
Yeah but Eb had the Blackstaff before being a Senior Council member. He only took the role of Senior Council member to protect Harry. Also the Blackstaff can violate all the laws so I don't know how the others members would be in charge of a law.
I guess there could be some kind of Mantle for each role. Which means Eb took on a new mantle when becoming the newest member.
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In answer to your question, Harry already is a member of the Accords. Twice in fact though one may be taken away now.
Skin Game page 206
"Marcone is not someone to cross lightly," I said. "Not only that, but he is a member of the Accords."
"I'm not," Nicodemus said. "Not any longer."
"I am," I said. "Twice. As Wizard of the White Council and as the Winter Knight."
I guess now you could change that to as Wizard of Chicago.
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In answer to your question, Harry already is a member of the Accords. Twice in fact though one may be taken away now.
Skin Game page 206
I guess now you could change that to as Wizard of Chicago.
I think the difference is that a member is someone who belongs to a group while the signatory of the accords would be like Harry being his own group. I one person member. Like Marcone.
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I could see where in the first generation after Merlin, there were seven seniors with seven responsibilities. But due to wizards keeping secrets, and unexpected deaths without specific inheritance protocols, and changes in Council rules and practices, the association of one for one was lost.
Thus do we end up with the Blackstaff not on the Senior Council, and the Warden mantle abandoned. There could be other mantles out there that aren't used just like the Warden went unfulfilled for decades or longer.
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Harry personally? Probably wouldn't want to go for it (if he even can as Mab's minion). The Paranet? They're very much a group that could develop into something that signs onto the accords.
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Harry personally? Probably wouldn't want to go for it (if he even can as Mab's minion). The Paranet? They're very much a group that could develop into something that signs onto the accords.
I'm not sure there's enough time before the BAT for them to organize enough. Harry can't lead them because of his conflicted interests. Murphy had the free time but she ded. Molly's got a job, Butters has a job. The Alphas are Wardens-types, not Senior Council-types.
And I don't trust Kumori Elaine far enough to her, so...
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In answer to your question, Harry already is a member of the Accords. Twice in fact though one may be taken away now.
Skin Game page 206
I guess now you could change that to as Wizard of Chicago.
One has been taken away, and while he might have been in some ways subject to the accords, as Winter Knight he is NOT Sidhe, he is their AGENT. Sort of like a civilian contractor to the Army. They may have some Army rules they have to follow, but they are not IN the Army. This would let him BE a member. But Wizard of Chicago? Maybe Warden of Demonreach....
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One has been taken away, and while he might have been in some ways subject to the accords, as Winter Knight he is NOT Sidhe, he is their AGENT. Sort of like a civilian contractor to the Army. They may have some Army rules they have to follow, but they are not IN the Army. This would let him BE a member. But Wizard of Chicago? Maybe Warden of Demonreach....
I think marriage to Lara might be enough to get coverage from the White Court where the Accords are concerned.
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I think marriage to Lara might be enough to get coverage from the White Court where the Accords are concerned.
Maybe, maybe not. Attacking a single member may get excused, or require wergild. After all, what happened to the White Court when they killed Margaret? Nothing. Or when they killed some of the Ordo Lebes? Harry would not be White Court ROYALTY as such, he would be a consort. "Be nice to Lara's toyboy" Now a signatory ... it's the difference between some foreign person kills a US tourist, and someone kills Biden.
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Maybe, maybe not. Attacking a single member may get excused, or require wergild. After all, what happened to the White Court when they killed Margaret? Nothing. Or when they killed some of the Ordo Lebes? Harry would not be White Court ROYALTY as such, he would be a consort. "Be nice to Lara's toyboy" Now a signatory ... it's the difference between some foreign person kills a US tourist, and someone kills Biden.
There was no evidence against Raith for Maggie's death.
As for the Ordo, the perpetrators were killed and Lara paid weregild to the victims' families. So they paid via the Accords.
If someone broke the Accords to attack him as an associate or asset of the White Court or Winter Court, they'd open themselves up to retaliation.
So, they'd have to do it very subtly.
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I'm not sure there's enough time before the BAT for them to organize enough. Harry can't lead them because of his conflicted interests. Murphy had the free time but she ded. Molly's got a job, Butters has a job. The Alphas are Wardens-types, not Senior Council-types.
And I don't trust Kumori Elaine far enough to her, so...
RIP magic users if both the White Council and Paranet are utterly subverted.
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RIP magic users if both the White Council and Paranet are utterly subverted.
Nah, nothing so dire. The Paranet isn't organized enough to become an Accorded nation, but I bet with the Librarians, a new organization could be formed.
Combine the funding and resources of a secret government organization with the grass-roots network and neighborhood watch-nature developed during the war with the fomor, and you've got the basis for a new faction.
They could probably scrounge up three sponsors, and set up The Congress of Practitioners or something.
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Nah, nothing so dire. The Paranet isn't organized enough to become an Accorded nation, but I bet with the Librarians, a new organization could be formed.
Combine the funding and resources of a secret government organization with the grass-roots network and neighborhood watch-nature developed during the war with the fomor, and you've got the basis for a new faction.
They could probably scrounge up three sponsors, and set up The Congress of Practitioners or something.
The Accorded nations would have to respect such an organization if only because it could tell the military where to shoot. They could raise layered ward around important sites. Not strong enough to stop an incursion, but enough to slow the initial rush and summon security that would normally be stopped by hexed equipment. Just putting up circles around crucial areas is priceless.
I like this idea but it could quickly become unwieldy and I could see it fracturing into regional and national squabbles.
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The Accorded nations would have to respect such an organization if only because it could tell the military where to shoot. They could raise layered ward around important sites. Not strong enough to stop an incursion, but enough to slow the initial rush and summon security that would normally be stopped by hexed equipment. Just putting up circles around crucial areas is priceless.
I like this idea but it could quickly become unwieldy and I could see it fracturing into regional and national squabbles.
I suppose it depends on the nature of the Librarians.
I like the idea of them being the current iteration of a timeless organization that has existed for nearly five thousand years, moving from continent to continent, collecting knowledge and artifacts but not getting involved because they understand the natural order of things, as well as that they are largely powerless in the face of such beings.
But they could also be an obnoxious, corrupt bureaucracy with over-confident, self-inflated mortals that think themselves superior because they know a bit about things others don't.
Given that Butcher has hinted at mortal resources being brought to bear against the supernatural, I'm inclined to think they'll be more like the former than the latter.
But so far we've every mortal authority (SI, CPD IA, FBI) all be asshats. If the agents seen in Dog Men are from the Librarians, then I'm not optimistic. If they're more like Agent Tilly, then maybe it'll work out
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I think there was a WOJ about whether the Paranet could sign up. Basically they'd have to win some fights before they'd build sufficient respect. Teaming up with the Librarians could help, but that's at best a long-term prospect since the Librarians are supposed to be really careful about not even being noticed by any supes. Plus, there's a national organization, and while the Paranet are centered in the US, they are to some extent trans-national - that's an additional dimension of obstacle.
Applying as a freeholding lord would also be tricky - the Council would lean on other signatories not to support him because it's an end-run around being expelled, and Marcone would exert similar pressure because signing up a Wizard of Chicago introduces uncertainty about whether Chicago is the territory of the Wizard or the Baron, and Mab's attitude toward it would be a coin-toss between liking a knight with a power base and disliking too much independence.
Warden of Demonreach might have more juice to get recognized than Wizard of Chicago, but announcing that one any wider than it's already known is probably a bad move. He's not going to be able to sucker-punch anyone else too stupid or arrogant to realize the danger of imprisonment.
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I think there was a WOJ about whether the Paranet could sign up. Basically they'd have to win some fights before they'd build sufficient respect. Teaming up with the Librarians could help, but that's at best a long-term prospect since the Librarians are supposed to be really careful about not even being noticed by any supes. Plus, there's a national organization, and while the Paranet are centered in the US, they are to some extent trans-national - that's an additional dimension of obstacle.
Applying as a freeholding lord would also be tricky - the Council would lean on other signatories not to support him because it's an end-run around being expelled, and Marcone would exert similar pressure because signing up a Wizard of Chicago introduces uncertainty about whether Chicago is the territory of the Wizard or the Baron, and Mab's attitude toward it would be a coin-toss between liking a knight with a power base and disliking too much independence.
Warden of Demonreach might have more juice to get recognized than Wizard of Chicago, but announcing that one any wider than it's already known is probably a bad move. He's not going to be able to sucker-punch anyone else too stupid or arrogant to realize the danger of imprisonment.
I could see an Accorded Nations meeting, where a leader for the new Mortal Alliance requests membership, and Lara, Sarissa, and Ivy announce their support. And when a ghoul asks how the mortals can be taken seriously, Dresden steps forward and announces that he'll be the Security Director, and if anyone wants his credentials, to ask the Red King or the Last Titan.
And when someone doubts that he took her out, he can just snap his staff to the ground, make an empowered circle of fire, summon Ethniu from Demonreach without her power enabled, and say "No, really. Ask her."
And when everyone's silent, snap the staff again, and send her back.
I don't see many members putting up much of a protest after that.
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I think there was a WOJ about whether the Paranet could sign up. Basically they'd have to win some fights before they'd build sufficient respect. Teaming up with the Librarians could help, but that's at best a long-term prospect since the Librarians are supposed to be really careful about not even being noticed by any supes. Plus, there's a national organization, and while the Paranet are centered in the US, they are to some extent trans-national - that's an additional dimension of obstacle.
Applying as a freeholding lord would also be tricky - the Council would lean on other signatories not to support him because it's an end-run around being expelled, and Marcone would exert similar pressure because signing up a Wizard of Chicago introduces uncertainty about whether Chicago is the territory of the Wizard or the Baron, and Mab's attitude toward it would be a coin-toss between liking a knight with a power base and disliking too much independence.
Warden of Demonreach might have more juice to get recognized than Wizard of Chicago, but announcing that one any wider than it's already known is probably a bad move. He's not going to be able to sucker-punch anyone else too stupid or arrogant to realize the danger of imprisonment.
Priscellie: What would the Paranet have to do to be considered a big enough body to sign the accords? And this is from poly? granada?
Jim: Oh they'd have to win some fights, is what they'd have to do. At the end of the day, in the supernatural world, among the various political powers, what gets you respect is the ability to thrash them. And if you can do that then they have to take you seriously because if they don't then you can thrash them. So that would be what they would really have to do, it would be something, a very difficult thing for them to do. It'd take an awful lot of coordination and leadership so it would take an awful extreme situation for something like that to come together. And I can't imagine where in the Dresden Files universe an extreme situation like that might exist *smirks and lifts mug while Priscellie laughs*.
And yeah, the fact that they're expanding in an international direction complicates any attempt to become subservient to a US organisation.
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Hasn't the council existed since quite a while before they possessed the blackstaff though? Was thinking they were at least 2k in current incarnation? An the blackstaff was generally thought to have been taken around the battle of Hastings?