Uriel says this as he stands on the Carpenters' property, surrounded by other sentinel angels. The plain sense interpretation of "our" in this sense is that it is not in the power of the angels to heal him; that the "our" is referring to his race, present yet unseen by mortals. Any other interpretation, I think, is really reaching unless there is supporting evidence to demonstrate why this plain interpretation does not fit the context.

Huh…  I vaguely remember reading a passage like that – the first five books are always harder for me to really get back into than the later ones, partially because I mostly do the Audiobooks and Marsters took a little while to pronounce everything right.  I’ve gone through DM to a few passages that I thought might contain the goon-impaling, and I’ve come up short.  Do you have the location in the book, or a quote?

If true – and I don’t doubt you at all that it is; I just want to read it in context – that does change a few things on my theory.  It really makes things far more complex.  The Knights defend freedom, free will, and choice.  When confronting Cassius Snakeboy, despite knowing that he’s horribly murdered many innocent (ish) people, they cannot pass judgment on him and offer violence in order to stop the plague and save countless lives.

Michael’s expression was pained.  “The Knights are here to protect freedom: to give those under the oppression of dark forces the chance to win free of them.  I cannot sit in judgment of this man’s soul, Harry Dresden: not for you, not for anyone.  All I can do is remain faithful to my calling; give him the chance to see hope for his future, to show him the love and compassion any human being should show another.  The rest is out of my hands.”

In regards to Choice and Free Will, combining this with the actions of the angel in Ghost Story, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the Knights are free to defend those who are being oppressed by dark forces outside of their control, but are not free to defend people from the consequences of their choices.  Put another way – if Nic sends five tongueless goons to attack Michael and he has no other choice, he can fight and defend himself, because the goons chose to do that.  Michael wouldn’t make the little Denarian cult nervous in Skin Game if he had no power over them.

On the other hand, I don’t think Michael would be able to attack the Merlin on behalf of Molly.  Molly surrendered herself to the will of the Council for judgment.  If somehow things fell in such a way that Molly was still executed by the will of the Council, then it was in fact her choice to do so.  She was certainly hoping for leniency, but chose to face the music rather than run.

But……  that wasn’t quite your question.  You asked if Arthur decided to kill Molly anyways, against the will of the rest of the Council.  Which would then not be an execution but a murder.  And in that case, I am certain that Michael would be able to fight Langtry, and win handily.

And in fact, you also pose this as vengeance rather than defense of an innocent.  This makes it trickier – the WG might not do anything for personal vengeance, but he certainly does on occasion deliver judgment and wrath:  see Murphy playing puppet to an angel herald in Changes. 

OK.  So, this is what I think, in all of the multifaceted ways it could be taken:

Michael attacks Langtry either to save Molly from execution or in vengeance after an execution, which was called for by a majority vote from the council:  Michael fails; the sword breaks, and Langtry incapacitates him without killing him.  Quickly and efficiently.  He didn’t become the Merlin by collecting frequent flier miles, after all.

Michael attacks Langtry either to save Molly after Langtry decides to kill Molly despite losing the vote, or in vengeance after Langtry does it without the majority vote:  Tricky.  If everyone is stepping back and allowing Langtry to do it because he’s threatening them all and practically going warlock, then it’s a no-brainer.  Michael overpowers Langtry's magic by force of will and through the sword.  Because Langtry has little physical power and great magical power, if he either employs his magic to try to kill Molly or Michael, then the wardens and Ebenezer would join in to kill the warlock Merlin when it becomes clear that Michael gives them the upper hand.  Everyone goes out for ice cream afterwards.  But if Langtry is going ahead without opposition because the others either think it must be done or because the Merlin gets some sort of final say, then I think this reflects the will of all of the other mortals there and is also in a way the expression of the will of the council.  Michael would fall in that case.

Michael attacks Langtry in vengeance not from Molly’s death, but from the deaths of all of the other children killed, like the Korean kid in the beginning of PG: I think that the WG would be behind this, and Michael could prevail, but it wouldn’t be Michael vs. Langtry:  it would be Michael vs. the entire White Council.  And I think that attacking them in a room surrounded by wardens and several senior council members would be a deathwish.  But then again, if that was the WG’s plan, I don’t believe that he would set up Michael in such a way.  Michael might prevail, but I think that it would be a Small Favors type of victory:  he would probably accomplish his mission, but die in the process.

Jonas: I hear you, I do. But my argument is not that Arthur Langtry is not a Denarian and therefore Michael is helpless; rather, that he is a mortal who possesses free will and choice. Think of the angel of death in Ghost Story who stood beside Forthill as he lay dying: what happened to Forthill was a result of the choices of many mortals. Who was he to step in?

Michael works for the same guy. Remember in Skin Game, he cannot follow into the Gate of Fire because Hannah chose to go there. Well, Molly's made her choice, and Dresden made his, and the Council would have made theirs. What could Michael do? Being "supernatural" in this sense means diddly; almost every mortal has SOME magical ability. Arthur being Shaq amongst a basketball court full of toddlers means nothing. He's mortal.

The only mortals that the Knights have the authority to kill are the Denarians, and only -after- they refuse to give up the coin. And -that- is because the Knights have a special mission in regards to the coins: to protect the bearers from the Fallen, and to protect others from the bearers.  There is no similar decree to protect convicted criminals of any mortal governing body from receiving their sentance.

Edit: Did you read "The Warrior" in Side Jobs?  Uriel pretty much tells Dresden that he was along in order to protect Michael from doing the exact thing you describe.

Wow, Wyltok, that is an awesome resource.  I particularly like the argument at the end of the page, which particularly talks about the differences between Gates and Ways, and that a Gate is a one-off opening, versus a Way being something that has been solidified in some way and anchored.  Aaand, I see that it was you who proposed that theory.   No wonder you found it so quickly.

I do like it; however, I don’t think that it explains at all Dresden’s attitude towards finding Molly in Proven Guilty.  When Harry sits with Charity and lists off the myriad of things that could possibly go wrong, he never voices that he might not be able to follow the Fetches even if he finds exactly where they crossed over; only that it would be hard to find the exact location.  Below are snippets of the chapter:

"There are plenty of things that can use mirrors as doorways or windows from the spirit world, but there's only one thing that feeds on fear and uses mirrors as pathways back and forth from the Nevernever.  It's called a Fetch." 
"The problem is that we don't know where to do it…  On top of that, I'd have to know precisely where to cross over into Faerie, because I'd have only minutes to grab her and get out, and I have no idea where she is."

First I had to find her.  The only way to do that was to learn where the Fetches carried her through to the Nevernever.  Geography in the Nevernever isn't like geography in the normal world.  The Nevernever touches our world only in certain points of sympathetic energy.  The portion of the Nevernever that touched an empty and abandoned warehouse might not be anywhere near the area of the spirit world that touched the full and busy childcare center across the physical street from the warehouse.  To make it worse, the connections between the mortal world and the Nevernever changed slowly over time as the world changed.  There could be a thousand places in Chicago where the Fetches might have dragged Molly back to their lair.  I had to find the correct one, and I had to do it before dawn, before the rising sun scattered and dispersed the residual traces of her presence that would be my only trail.

If the argument about there being a difference between a quick-and-dirty Gate and an anchored, established Way is true, then Dresden’s logic doesn’t make sense here.  Regardless of whether the Fetches had made the theater a Way, Dresden had no way of knowing it at this point.  He speaks of the Fetches only using mirrors as doorways and windows to go back and forth, rather than having a single solid established pathway – their use of mirrors is what tells him that the phobophages are Fetches, rather than some other monster.  He also expects to pop up exactly where the Fetches crossed when he finds the point they crossed, as he states that the operation must be done in minutes; not something that you can manage if two people only went to the same general location, but potentially miles away.  In addition, Dresden knows that his will, intent, purpose and thoughts are very different from the Fetches; they are returning home with prey to feed on; he is following a pack of enemies in order to retrieve their captive.  If Harry’s entire plan to rescue Molly relied upon him opening a closed gate to follow the Fetches, it doesn’t make sense why a year later he assumes that Cowl can’t follow him into Faerie the exact same way.

The conversation with Morgan and Molly in the storage unit also is a bit telling:

“The idea is to protect you from a surprise assault long enough for you to go out the back door and run.”
Molly glanced at the back of the storage unit and said, “There’s no door there, Harry.  That’s a wall.  That’s kind of the opposite of a door.” 
Morgan nodded his head at the back corner of the space where a large rectangular area on the floor was clear of any runes or any other markings.  “There,” he said.  “Where’s it come out?” 
“About three long steps from one of the marked trails the Council has rite of passage on in Unseelie territory,” I said.

Considering that Faerie makes Australia look like Rhode Island, the chances that Dresden’s storage unit would just happen to open up right next to a marked Council trail is one-in-a-million, even considering how good Chicago is for Ways.  If gates go somewhere different for different people unless they’re connected to a Way, Morgan wouldn’t have any reason to suspect that Dresden could reliably answer his question of “Where’s it come out?” because it would be absurd for Dresden to build a Way on the other end.  If Harry built the bolthole for his own safety, there would be no reason to make this little rectangle a Way – who else but him would be hiding here that could open a gate?  And as doors go both ways (as Morgan reminds him later), attempting to firm up and solidify the Nevernever on the other end as a Way would be akin to putting a giant flag in the Nevernever saying, “Hey, there’s something interesting over here on the other side!”  Not something you do when you need a place to lay low and hide for a while.

I still suspect that this line in White Night is a “the curtains were blue” moment (to steal the WOJ you reference in your signature, Wyltok).  It just doesn’t seem like any of the people in the Dresden Files think that way – when talking about what is on the ‘other side’, the discussion is always about a specific place in the Nevernever, rather than “It’s leads to a peaceful location” or “It leads to a hostile location” or “It leads to a frightening location.”  That is the sort of commentary I would expect to see if two people opening a Way in the same location would lead to different areas which shared the same sort of sympathetic energy, because you wouldn’t expect that you could tell someone exactly what was on the other side – only in general what they might find if they opened a gate there.

So, I was listening to the dulcet tones of James Marsters narrating White Night for the umpteenth time, when there was a particular line that stopped me in my tracks.  Quite frankly, it fairly overturned what I thought of as a hard-and-fast rule of the Dresden Files, and shook up my understanding of what Ways are and how they are formed – something that I thought was pretty simple to understand.  Is this a goof of Jim’s?

This passage happens in the fight in the Deeps; Marcone suggests that they leave the fight and escape to the Nevernever:

The gate was six feet away from me; we could pull up stakes, hop through, and close it behind us.  Gates to the spirit world paid absolutely no attention to trivial things like geography.  They obeyed laws of imagination, intention, pattern of thought.  Even if Cowl was back there, he wouldn’t be able to open a gate to the same place as mine because he didn’t think like me, feel like me, or share my intent or purpose.  White Night chapter 39

But… this doesn’t make sense, on several levels.  If two people opening a Way in the same place cannot open it to the same location – if, as suggested, the location it is opened to is somewhat reliant on the intent, purpose, and feelings of the individual – that would completely destroy some of the mechanics of travel in the Nevernever.  There would be no point in Dresden having Graver stake out the Way in Chicago during Turn Coat, for example, because there would not be a common path from one location to another.  There would be no point in Dresden advising Morgan what was on the other side of his storage bolthole in TC, either, because Morgan would undoubtedly open it to a different location than Dresden would.  In fact, Margaret’s gift to her son would be completely useless if this was the case; she gives exact directions through the Ways, down to the number of paces, which could not function well if there was some sort of ambiguity.  And that’s not to mention that it would be impossible for Harry and crew to follow the Fetches in Proven Guilty, or Agatha Hagglethorn in Grave Peril.  If Cowl couldn’t follow Harry by opening a closed gate, then Harry couldn’t follow the fetches for the same reason - he certainly didn’t have the same thoughts, feelings, intent, and purpose as the Fetches.

So why does Harry act as if he were to close his gate to the Nevernever, no one could open up a gate in the same location and follow?

I understand that Ways are fluid and don’t always stay the same, but Jim has always portrayed their locations as being anchored to their metaphysical resonance of the real world – i.e., a creepy-and-scary location in the real world might connect with a scary place in the Nevernever, and a creepy-and-sad location a few yards away connect to a sad place a hundred miles away in the Nevernever.  If the nature of the place changes – such as blasting into Marcone’s vault instead of breaking in, for example – the end point of the Way might change, but this is related to an actual change that happened to the nature of the location, not due to the perception of the person performing the ritual.  If Ways change naturally – and they do – they often change gradually, over years and decades.  Not immediately, because someone who thinks differently opened a Way.

It seems at first as if Dresden's quote in White Night is a goof… but this isn’t the only time that Jim communicates the idea that if a person steps into the Nevernever and closes the gate behind him, he can’t be followed.  In Turn Coat, Peabody’s escape ends with him ripping open a gate into the Nevernever, causing a significant injury to a Warden in order to delay Dresden, and jumping through.  Dresden follows Peabody before the gate closes thanks to Luccio’s intervention and tackles Peabody.  Instead of preparing to ambush Dresden with a lethal attack, Peabody had instead been wasting his time trying to close the gate.  Why waste the time he bought himself trying to close a door that could so quickly be opened again?  By messing with the gate, Peabody exposed a weakness and delayed his escape, which eventually led to his death.  Completely stupid, unless he knew that he couldn’t be followed if the Way was closed.

I know that Jim presents Ways in this exact same way in at least one other instance, but I can’t recall the source.

How do you all understand Ways to work?  Is this a goof of Jim’s, used for narrative convenience in this scene?  Or are Ways far more complex than the broad brushstrokes I’m painting them with?

"Well, yeah, but Harry died and he's doing alright."

Yeah, I had forgotten about that particular WOJ.  OK, so no Justin; time-travelling alternate future Harry Dresden it is.

I dunno - if Harry got off on a technicality in the aftermath of Bianca's party because they couldn't prove that the human bodies found in the burned house weren't already dead, then would the council really charge Harry for breaking the first law if there was no body in the ruins of DuMorne's house?

Or, oo, better question - if there was a body, and it wasn't DuMorne's, then who? It's clear from Dead Beat that Harry's already very familiar with necromancy; he doesn't need to lean on Bob's knowledge to answer Butters' in-depth questions.  Maybe DuMorne had a spare corpse around that was merely mistaken as him, and he escaped just like Elaine?

I like that.  Justin doesn't sound like such a crazy option now.  I'm still in the "It's Harry" camp, but "It's Justin" would be my second guess.