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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on January 23, 2022, 02:19:37 AM
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I'm sitting at my desk drinking a really good Small Batch Bourbon and listening to some of my favorite music and had a melancholy thought. Was Mab's order to Harry a foreshadowing? Will Harry have to kill Molly? Worse yet, if true, who will Molly kill before Harry can stop her? I can't really say there is any one thing that is the genesis of this thought, but it does follow the general theme that Butcher has always presented. How can I torture Harry?
Since I'm shipping Harry and Mab, in my minds eye I see Harry holding a dying Mab in his arms as the stars go black in the sky.
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I'm sitting at my desk drinking a really good Small Batch Bourbon and listening to some of my favorite music and had a melancholy thought. Was Mab's order to Harry a foreshadowing? Will Harry have to kill Molly? Worse yet, if true, who will Molly kill before Harry can stop her? I can't really say there is any one thing that is the genesis of this thought, but it does follow the general theme that Butcher has always presented. How can I torture Harry?
Since I'm shipping Harry and Mab, in my minds eye I see Harry holding a dying Mab in his arms as the stars go black in the sky.
You should know better, never mix bourbon with The Dresden Files, it will give you a bad headache every time... ::)
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With Bourbon as expensive as what I was drinking I don't expect a headache.
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With Bourbon as expensive as what I was drinking I don't expect a headache.
You should get something for your money... ;) However the redeeming bit about something of that quality it isn't for swilling, it is for sipping and savoring in small quantities, hence no headache..
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Mab can only die on the Stone Slab or on Harry’s Birthday, barring a total breach of reality threatened by the eye which she might have been afraid of in Battle Ground or the destruction of the universe by the White God. Interesting that Mab thought Harry could kill Molly, not that he would. Maybe the Spear?
Also might Molly’s death been a weapon against Ethnui? Molly is still a Wizard what if she had agreed with Mab to use her death curse on Ethnui? Supercharged by the Winter Mantle by a dying immortal it would have hurt Ethnui quite a lot allowing a win for Harry even without Mab, especially given the amount of power required to kill Mab expended by Ethnui. A Mab contingency plan.
The first two are not going to happen during Battle Ground, the last would leave Harry in no position to do anything. Halloween is when reality is at its thinnest so the Eye creating an artificial localised Halloween is not unexpected, Mab could have died at at time when there was an coordinated attack on the Outer Gates being dealt with by Lea. Mab would lose Chicago to save the Outer Gates, if she died Molly became Queen leaving who as the Lady? Molly was NOT ready to defend the Outer Gates, killing Molly would mean the Queen Mantle defaulted to Lea who was ready to defend the Outer Gates. At that point if Mab could die, so could Molly, especially using the Spear. Mab was simply not sure she could survive these circumstances, and it appears to have surprised Ethnui.
Mab will be training Molly henceforth in the defence of the Outer Gates now she has mastered the Lady’s role and performed well in battle (The one big issue with Molly, she was not a combat mage like Harry, and got badly injured during her first big battle). We know Mab has at least another TWELVE MONTHS in which to instruct Molly.
No I don’t think this is foreshadowing of Harry having to kill Molly later on, the Fomor attacked when Winter was weakest, both on the day of the year AND integrating a new Winter Lady. This was Mab making a cold logical assessment that indicated Molly had to be sacrificed for the greater good. Winter are not going to be so exposed after Battle Ground, so another form of attack will be required, Molly isn’t a weak link and this is now apparent.
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Evidently she thinks she can die, the phrase she uses is that she is immortal not eternal. And Butcher likes to telegraph what he is going to do.
“It’s never that simple. Titania could decide that the best way to help me would be to break my back, paralyze me from the waist down, and dump me into a hospital bed so her gruffs won’t have to kill me.”
And two books later Harry breaks his back leaving him paralyzed. However I have no direct support for the thought, merely the thought.
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Immortals can die on Halloween at least, the White God probably not.
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Evidently she thinks she can die, the phrase she uses is that she is immortal not eternal. And Butcher likes to telegraph what he is going to do. And two books later Harry breaks his back leaving him paralyzed. However I have no direct support for the thought, merely the thought.
It is possible that though she is now Lady of the Winter Court, the transformation over to full fae hasn't been finished, and till it is, Molly can still be killed like any other ordinary mortal.
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If Butcher needs Molly dead then she will die and the same is true for Mab. For instance Bob knows how to kill an immortal. At no point does Butcher put it in canon that there is only one way it can be done. It may well be that the Knight himself is a fail safe of some kind and that the Mantle may be able to do what a mortal couldn't. You can infer this from Mab's command. She evidently thinks Harry could do it, even if he won't.
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If Butcher needs Molly dead then she will die and the same is true for Mab. For instance Bob knows how to kill an immortal. At no point does Butcher put it in canon that there is only one way it can be done. It may well be that the Knight himself is a fail safe of some kind and that the Mantle may be able to do what a mortal couldn't. You can infer this from Mab's command. She evidently thinks Harry could do it, even if he won't.
As previously stated, if reality breaks down all bets are off, Mab probably had no idea whether Ethnui could kill her, or not but if she could she considered that conditions were likely that Molly would be vulnerable as well. I doubt there was any precedent for what was going on in Battle Ground.
If Mab did die the Mantle would pass to Molly unless as with the Summer Knights Mantle, Harry turned Molly to Stone, the transmission is pretty automatic, and the Lady’s Mantle would go to the nearest Virgin Changeling or Wizard with any association with Winter, with the likely result they Carlos would become the Winter Laddy.
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I believe you. But we are still left with the text, Mab thinks Harry could do the deed. Either Butcher is jerking our chain or Harry could do the dirty and kill Molly even if she received the Mantle.
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Immortals can die on Halloween at least, the White God probably not.
That is what you think. We know he can die 9 times.
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I'm sitting at my desk drinking a really good Small Batch Bourbon and listening to some of my favorite music and had a melancholy thought. Was Mab's order to Harry a foreshadowing? Will Harry have to kill Molly? Worse yet, if true, who will Molly kill before Harry can stop her? I can't really say there is any one thing that is the genesis of this thought, but it does follow the general theme that Butcher has always presented. How can I torture Harry?
Since I'm shipping Harry and Mab, in my minds eye I see Harry holding a dying Mab in his arms as the stars go black in the sky.
I like the imagery; both of sipping bourbon and the Harry holding a dying Mab as the stars wink out.
Very plausible, Butcher has telegraphed such things before. At any rate, we shall get more insight on why Mab gave such an order and what Molly's influence might be on Winter.
As previously stated, if reality breaks down all bets are off, Mab probably had no idea whether Ethnui could kill her, or not but if she could she considered that conditions were likely that Molly would be vulnerable as well. I doubt there was any precedent for what was going on in Battle Ground.
If Mab did die the Mantle would pass to Molly unless as with the Summer Knights Mantle, Harry turned Molly to Stone, the transmission is pretty automatic, and the Lady’s Mantle would go to the nearest Virgin Changeling or Wizard with any association with Winter, with the likely result they Carlos would become the Winter Laddy.
I seem to remember Bob stating that Halloween was only one such conjunction when Immortals can die, not the only one. Certain places in the NeverNever I believe he said.
That is what you think. We know he can die 9 times.
I don't remember that ever being in the Dresden Files.
Just make sure we are discussing what is in the fictional universe of the Dresden Files, not our own universe.
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A lot of beings are said to have nine lives, some people believe the white god is one such being which has been part of ehe series for a long time.
At least Molly believes she is immortal. In battle ground she told Harry she could go through a wood chipper and she would get better.
It was not the breaking down of reality, it was being hit by the eye itself. If she had waited by Odin, the Earl King and Titania's bodies, put them in a pile and blasted them when it was ready then they would have been dead. Or if she had managed to hit Mab a second time
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A lot of beings are said to have nine lives, some people believe the white god is one such being which has been part of ehe series for a long time.
The Mister Microfiction disproved that Mister is the White God.
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I think Mab's command is directed more at killing Molly and less at killing the Winter Lady. We know from Good People that Molly is more human than Mab would like and that Mab thinks that could limit her potential in the Winter Court. One could kill Molly without killing the Winter Lady. Molly would just become Maeve.
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No killing Molly would make her the Winter Lady, and not Maeve, Maeve fought against the Mantle and embraced Nemesis. Molly has embraced the Mantle and is taking it in direction Mab didn’t expect and doesn’t understand.
It’s not what Molly did which unnerved Mab, it’s that the Mantle not only allowed it but ran with it. Molly is unlocking previously unknown potential in the Mantle, and if she can do that as Winter Lady, what could she do as Queen? Winter being charitable? Impossible! Not in The Good People. Even The Redcap’s small heart grew three sizes that day.
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Mab doesn't speak in metaphors. There is no reason to believe that Mab meant other than what she said. There is nothing to suggest that once you become a Lady or a Queen that you can get out from under other than by dying.
Butcher makes the point over and over that Mab would throw Harry under the bus without hesitation if it needed to happen. Just on that basis Molly isn't fit. Could she kill Harry, or for that matter could she sacrifice her family if she needed to? She has too much heart for that.
I'd like to think they were destined to live together forever, but my heart says that Butcher is a sadist in practice.
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A lot of beings are said to have nine lives, some people believe the white god is one such being which has been part of ehe series for a long time.
At least Molly believes she is immortal. In battle ground she told Harry she could go through a wood chipper and she would get better.
It was not the breaking down of reality, it was being hit by the eye itself. If she had waited by Odin, the Earl King and Titania's bodies, put them in a pile and blasted them when it was ready then they would have been dead. Or if she had managed to hit Mab a second time
Again, has it ever been stated or implied during the series or in a WOJ that TWG in the Dresden Files has nine lives? I don't believe so but would be happy for someone to point this out. I am not talking about whether the Abrahamic God that several billion people in our world believe in - we don't discuss real world beliefs here, with the sole exception of the what's contextual to the Dresden Files. The White God of the Dresden Files IS NOT the same being as the Abrahamic God in our world. Jim may have based TWG on aspects of the Abrahamic God. But the Dresden Files is a story and needs to be treated as such. TWG is a fictional being. The status of the Abrahamic God in our world is one that has been in constant debate for a very long time and these boards are not the appropriate place to discuss this.
I want to make this extremely clear: stick to talking about what's in the series, not current real-world beliefs.
I understand that is at times difficult given that the book is set in the present day and uses things from our world. But the Dresden Files is a work of fiction and any statements or implied points should be reviewed under that lens. If we go too far into real world beliefs we are in Touchy Topics territory and things could get out of hand. I don't want that.
Molly is an immortal, although perhaps one of the least of them. But all immortals cannot die except in very specific circumstances one of which is being in a conjunction (which is a measure of a point in time and space), Bob suggest some parts of the Nevernever may also render immortals mortal, and Jim has said that the Eye of Balor can kill immortals should they fail to stop or evade the blast (the example he used was Uriel). I agree that a second hit from the Eye would have killed Mab; Mab herself as much says that when asked how she survived at all.
The Mister Microfiction disproved that Mister is the White God.
That's one way of looking at it. The Egg by Andy Weir might suggest otherwise (if that takes your fancy): (http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html) :)
I think Mab's command is directed more at killing Molly and less at killing the Winter Lady. We know from Good People that Molly is more human than Mab would like and that Mab thinks that could limit her potential in the Winter Court. One could kill Molly without killing the Winter Lady. Molly would just become Maeve.
This^. Mab doesn't want Harry to unmake the mantle. That would be insanity. But wanting a new Winter Lady is hardly unusual...Cold Days was all about that. And I agree, I think Mab is worried about the consequences of making Winter a little warmer. Your solution to killing Molly is dark. But it might work too. Faeries are such lawyers after all.
Mab doesn't speak in metaphors. There is no reason to believe that Mab meant other than what she said. There is nothing to suggest that once you become a Lady or a Queen that you can get out from under other than by dying.
Butcher makes the point over and over that Mab would throw Harry under the bus without hesitation if it needed to happen. Just on that basis Molly isn't fit. Could she kill Harry, or for that matter could she sacrifice her family if she needed to? She has too much heart for that.
I'd like to think they were destined to live together forever, but my heart says that Butcher is a sadist in practice.
You're probably right here. I think when Mab asks for a persons death, she means it. But the idea of killing the person Molly was is an interesting notion nonetheless.
Molly has too much heart now. Give her 50 years and you might not recognize her.
Butcher is a sadist (my word that part of the sentence on it's own sounds savage enough). But he is sentimental too. The whole Harry raising little Maggie thing. Michael's family going on to have a good life as a reward for their service to humanity. And so on. Who can say what he really will do in the end? I am not so sure even he knows yet.
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Sadist is a good description of what Butcher does with the character not what he is. He's always looking to torture Harry.
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... And I agree, I think Mab is worried about the consequences of making Winter a little warmer. Your solution to killing Molly is dark. But it might work too. Faeries are such lawyers after all.
You're probably right here. I think when Mab asks for a persons death, she means it. But the idea of killing the person Molly was is an interesting notion nonetheless ...
I think Mab is simply worried that Molly is too young, inexperienced, and weak (in terms of personal power, willpower, as well as "Wintery" coldness/hardness) to be an effective Queen. She will simply be overmatched just by Titania... let alone by the duties of the Outer Gates! And thus, Mab fears... Winter's purpose would fail, and fall; and with it, all creation.
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Sadist is a good description of what Butcher does with the character not what he is. He's always looking to torture Harry.
Yes in new ways, parenthood is a whole new bag and Jim is looking forward to Maggie’s first crush and how it will put Harry through the wringer and Jim is probably going to enjoy the break in format for NEXT BOOK to try new things on Harry, such as dealing with the mundane soul destroying drew of life as it interfaces with Harry very unordinary life for example having Harry audited by the IRS
“Mr Dresden, you claim everything you owned in your home and office and car was destroyed, you then claimed you were dead for six months and then stranded on an island no on can find on the maps before re-appearing with a suspicious amount of wealth, claiming two dependents one of whom doesn’t appear to exist, before taking up residence in a castle formerly owned by Chicago’s godfather. And you think you shouldn’t be audited? Seriously?”
Harry would have to hire the Swartalves to do his taxes, they probably moved to the US because of their appreciation of the complexity and nitpicking nature of the US Tax Code.
Jim has already set up the planning of the wedding over the year, with Harry caught between Lara and Molly. Harry will hate all of it, except the cake tasting, which of course Jim will make him miss or which is completely disrupted by a monster attack. Now that is a bit of Battle Ground foreshadowing.
Another bit of foreshadowing, in Peace Talks about Mister getting on in age, and Harry has to deal with an unwell and ailing cat, vet visits, preparing Maggie (and himself) for Misters demise, stretched out over the the year as Mister visibly fades.
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Peter Principle
Some people who are good at what they do are not suited to being promoted. Mab apparently believes that Molly, while a good Winter Lady, is not suited to the top-job.
I suspect that Mab would like Lara to be put into the position of Winter Queen if something goes sideways. However, given the mechanisms of Winter, at least as far as I understand them, if something would happen to Mab, then Molly would inherit the title.
Basically, Mab is saying that Harry should take out Molly, which would give the Queen of Winter title to Lara and then Lara could find a new Winter Lady.
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Not sure, the wedding plans came after the Battle, not before.
Arguably Harry when wed to Lara would have a similar enough role with her as he already does with Mab (consort) that is creates a potential link to the Winter Queen Mantle so that it would go to Lara rather than Molly (say by putting Molly in a circle so the Mantle can’t get to her and instead goes to the next candidate, Lara).
Mab wanted HaRa to tie the knot immediately upon the end of the Battle, it was only when Lara wanted to wait did she agree, BUT the plan to announce the engagement and have HaRa seen publicly may work better if in the slightly longer term to create that link.
Mab is succession planning and Lea is NOT part of that plan, Molly is and I suspect Lara is. Mab needing help with documents from the White Court? Please. Mab was setting Lara up to owe her a favour when she knew the favour Lara would ask, same with Nick, and same favour, the services of Harry as the Winter Knight.
One tends to think of Mab’s death freeing her Mantle, but what if instead Mother Winter has indicated to Mab she intends to abdicate? From the Little we have seen of the Mothers, Winter seems to be feeling her age more, and if I remember correctly she’s the original? Global warming can’t be doing her any favours. Maybe the return of the Blackstaff will signal a change?
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Mab is succession planning and Lea is NOT part of that plan, Molly is and I suspect Lara is...
I suspect Lea used to be part of the succession plan (if only a contingency); but the Athame cut a permanent Nemesis-wound into her, and she's no longer suitable.
Lara seems very "maybe" to me: no real Winter channel there. Would marriage to the WK give such a channel? I... guess? Maybe? But also very much maybe not.
One tends to think of Mab’s death freeing her Mantle, but what if instead Mother Winter has indicated to Mab she intends to abdicate? From the Little we have seen of the Mothers, Winter seems to be feeling her age more, and if I remember correctly she’s the original? Global warming can’t be doing her any favours. Maybe the return of the Blackstaff will signal a change?
I agree: I think we may well see Mother Winter depart, and the Mantle suck Mab out from under the Winter Queen mantle... and if Molly is still Winter Lady...
I don't think MW is "feeling her age..." I think she's feeling the lack of her walking-stick. I suspect (I even hope!) we'll see her order the WK to "fetch me my walking-stick, boy!"
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I agree: I think we may well see Mother Winter depart, and the Mantle suck Mab out from under the Winter Queen mantle... and if Molly is still Winter Lady...
Are we sure that would happen? One ascends to the next level? We've only seen what happens when one of the Winter Ladies is killed and the Mantle passes to one most suited. If Mab were killed, could Mother Winter could hold her Mantle or bestow it on someone other than Molly? Or, if Mother Winter was done, could Mab hold her Mantle until she was prepped or a Winter Queen was prepped?
Just spitballing here.
Cheers---B
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The Mothers are pretty much unkillable, high power Immortals with Intellectus, so no one is going to be able to sneak up on them, and there are two of them, one always watching. Retirement is another matter, wearying of the role they are stuck in, wanting to relinquish it.
Mab wasn’t able to redirect the Winter Lady Mantle, like she can the Winter Knight Mantle , but she may not have wanted to, she certainly couldn’t control the Summer Lady Mantle, Maeve murdered the Summer Lady to deny Mab her choice. Retirement would allow control of the direction of the Mantles, Mother Winter uses the big circle on Demonreach so that it contains Herself, Mab and Lara but not Molly. The Circle protects reality from her extrusion into it. She retires and her Mantle goes to Mab, who accepts it displacing Mab’s Mantle which only has the choice of Lara, Molly is cut off from it by the circle and the Winter Queen Mantle cannot identify her, going instead to Lara.
The Mantles are creations, at a default they are designed to go somewhere immediately, to ensure continuity of power if they cannot go to the designated candidate they will go to the next appropriate candidate, as occurred with Molly.
If things go wrong you have Harry and Alfred on standby, they take Lara down, but release her immediately minus her demon which is kept in storage and the Mantle keeps her alive in its absence.
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Mab wasn’t able to redirect the Winter Lady Mantle, like she can the Winter Knight Mantle , but she may not have wanted to, she certainly couldn’t control the Summer Lady Mantle, Maeve murdered the Summer Lady to deny Mab her choice. Retirement would allow control of the direction of the Mantles, Mother Winter uses the big circle on Demonreach so that it contains Herself, Mab and Lara but not Molly. The Circle protects reality from her extrusion into it. She retires and her Mantle goes to Mab, who accepts it displacing Mab’s Mantle which only has the choice of Lara, Molly is cut off from it by the circle and the Winter Queen Mantle cannot identify her, going instead to Lara.
The Mantles are creations, at a default they are designed to go somewhere immediately, to ensure continuity of power if they cannot go to the designated candidate they will go to the next appropriate candidate, as occurred with Molly.
If things go wrong you have Harry and Alfred on standby, they take Lara down, but release her immediately minus her demon which is kept in storage and the Mantle keeps her alive in its absence.
I disagree with Mab being unable to direct the Winter Lady Mantle. She clearly intended it to go to Sarissa, but Maeve's murder of Lilly ruined that plan. Maeve/Nemesis didn't count on Molly and Maeve/Nemesis probably thought that if Mab dealt with Maeve that Justine/Nemesis would get the Winter Lady Mantle.
However, I agree with you that Mab has a way to deal with the White Court Demon. We already know that Winter can create powerful unravelings that could undo the Red Vampire curse, and that Winter can quiet the Red Vampire Hunger. The White Court Hunger seems much more separable from the Host.
How will Harry and Lara consumate their impending marriage if Lara "eats" him? Or is the Winter Knight a power source that could be fed upon, but not devoured like the Big Foot Scion?
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The Mister Microfiction disproved that Mister is the White God.
It just confirmed that he is fully white god and fully cat. He is incarnated as cat so of course as cat he has nine lives.
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Mab's instruction to Harry was to "Kill Molly Carpenter". Not, kill lady Molly. Or kill the Winter Lady.
Names, offices and mantles are incredibly important to the fae. Mab summoned Kringle, not Vadderung. Same person, two different names and offices. Harry bound Molly because the Warden of Demonreach did a favor for Winter, by enforcing the Accords and binding Ethniu. Winter was obligated to repay the favor and he called upon them to pay for the funerals and medical bills.
Harry Dresden, The Za Lord, The Wizard of Chicago, or the Winter Knight could not have bound Ethniu. Only the Warden of Demonreach could have bound her.
Name and mantles, kid. That's how they get you.
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It just confirmed that he is fully white god and fully cat. He is incarnated as cat so of course as cat he has nine lives.
Sigh
The Church of Mister the White God will never cease.
I blame the internet.
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Sigh
The Church of Mister the White God will never cease.
I blame the internet.
It is clear. He made cats in his image. Join.
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Sadist is a good description of what Butcher does with the character not what he is. He's always looking to torture Harry.
I don't know...he says he loves torturing readers. :P
I think Mab is simply worried that Molly is too young, inexperienced, and weak (in terms of personal power, willpower, as well as "Wintery" coldness/hardness) to be an effective Queen. She will simply be overmatched just by Titania... let alone by the duties of the Outer Gates! And thus, Mab fears... Winter's purpose would fail, and fall; and with it, all creation.
Maybe so, but if it were that simple I don't think Jim would use it as a hook. I think something else that is specific to Molly's mental state and/or behaviour is going on.
Mab's instruction to Harry was to "Kill Molly Carpenter". Not, kill lady Molly. Or kill the Winter Lady.
Names, offices and mantles are incredibly important to the fae. Mab summoned Kringle, not Vadderung. Same person, two different names and offices. Harry bound Molly because the Warden of Demonreach did a favor for Winter, by enforcing the Accords and binding Ethniu. Winter was obligated to repay the favor and he called upon them to pay for the funerals and medical bills.
Harry Dresden, The Za Lord, The Wizard of Chicago, or the Winter Knight could not have bound Ethniu. Only the Warden of Demonreach could have bound her.
Name and mantles, kid. That's how they get you.
I like this. Although I will point out Mab said kill Maeve when she meant Harry to physically end the life of the current Winter Lady. She wouldn't necessarily say end the Winter Lady...because that might mean getting rid of the mantle itself and that would obviously be a problem.
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So did Christos really die? If he did I guess he wasn't in the Black Council ( or the Circle if you prefer) then he just was a stupid politician probably being used as a catspaw by them at least..
So if he's actually dead then whose up next? Klaus the Toymaker finally?
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So how long do you think that HWWB has been controlling Justine? Since the White Court Coup? Turncoat? Damn thing almost pulled it all off.. And how the hell did it get past the Outer Gates? Summoned by someone from the Black Council I take it. Wonder what that whole crews next play will be ,well besides kicking Dresden off of the council.
That was probably the thing that the Gatekeeper viewed with his sight and got post traumatic stress like Harry did with Shaggy.
As for Foreshadowing, I think Rudolph's partner will pick up one of the blades. King Toad will try to kill Listen, and Nemesis/Justine will try to use the baby as a bargaining chip. Oh and Harry punches Rameriez right in his stupid face for even suggesting that the 60,000 lives were on Harry's head because he didn't freaking talk to him. Smh
Harry uses the ruins of the BFS to shelter low grade mages and uses the runes there for some kick ass defense.
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I like this. Although I will point out Mab said kill Maeve when she meant Harry to physically end the life of the current Winter Lady. She wouldn't necessarily say end the Winter Lady...because that might mean getting rid of the mantle itself and that would obviously be a problem.
You may have stumbled on to what Mab meant when she ordered Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her. Not the Winter Lady, but Molly, the the human being with a soul. That may be why she is promoting this marriage between Harry and Lara, because she knows Molly loves Harry. One thing for Molly to tolerate Harry and Murphy, she knows it made him happy. But Harry and Lara would be a soul killing bridge too far.
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So how long do you think that HWWB has been controlling Justine? Since the White Court Coup? Turncoat? Damn thing almost pulled it all off.. And how the hell did it get past the Outer Gates? Summoned by someone from the Black Council I take it. Wonder what that whole crews next play will be ,well besides kicking Dresden off of the council. “
Probably from Cold Days, when Maeve died her Mantle went to Molly, but Nemesis went to Justine, they were in a magic circle, so those were the only options available. Molly was a specialist in mind magic and had won against Corpsetaker, Justine had a pre-existing mental condition, Nemesis probably couldn’t take the former but could the latter. Lara also mentions that there has been recent leaks of information, again consistent with Cold Days.
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... I seem to remember Bob stating that Halloween was only one such conjunction when Immortals can die, not the only one. Certain places in the NeverNever I believe he said.
Agreed; I remember that too.
Halloween is ... the most-common / most-frequent / most-obvious / most-whatever "conjunction," but there are others. Some I think are other times, some are places; some might be times and places (the right time and place).
I suspect some are objects... such as the Eye of Balor. I'd argue that we have pretty good evidence (in Battle Ground) that it is!
And I think there are others still.
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Chichen Itza when the stars are right most likely. The stone table for sure.
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Places in the Never Never will be places designed for particular groups of immortal like the Stone Table, they won’t necessarily work for all, and like the Stone Table are likely to be designed to redistribute that Immortals power, involuntarily.
Greek Gods for example had no such place, they just couldn’t be killed, only reduced, however the same may not have applied to other pantheons, Balor for example was killed by Lugh, and this may have at been such a place for the Fomor.
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Butcher seems to be foreshadowing Mab's death and with it Molly becoming overwhelmed. Combine that with Harry saying he's not trying to get out of the Winter Knight mantle without freeing Molly from hers (and hopefully an answer to his own paralysis) and I wonder if the answer isn't Mab gets killed either as the spark for the BAT or in the first book. Molly goes nuts over the course of a book or so. Harry then uses the Crown of Thorns* to remove the Winter Queen mantle from Molly (and later the Winter Knight mantle from himself). Seems most likely that Lara becomes Winter Queen with maybe Elaine (who was Sidhe trained while with Aurora for years) becoming Winter Lady during the BAT.
*The hypothesis being that thorn manacles were created as a pale imitation of the power of the Crown of Thorns whose power strips immortality and/or a mantle from the wearer.
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*The hypothesis being that thorn manacles were created as a pale imitation of the power of the Crown of Thorns whose power strips immortality and/or a mantle from the wearer.
One of mine (it feels right, doesn’t it, containment for Drakul and Lucifer outside of Demonreach). The courts I think are going to be replaced by humanity as the last defenders of the Outer Gates (I posit the cycles ends with the Singularity and birth of a White God, the Endgame) If so Mab, Molly and Harry are all going to be released from their Mantles in any event in the APOCALYPSE. Harry and Molly might survive this but Mab? She has been institutionalised. Our last image of Mab, in a nursing home sans her mantle and mortal , confused and effectively suffering from extreme Alzheimer’s I think is a definite possibility. Harry is doing the opposite of what Mab is asking, he is helping her retain her humanity through her links to her family and friends. That may be her salvation.
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... Combine that with Harry saying he's not trying to get out of the Winter Knight mantle without freeing Molly from hers (and hopefully an answer to his own paralysis) ...
I'm pretty sure Harry is already cured. I suspect his own wizard's "constitution" or "healing factor" did it, while Winter powers provided a sort of support-structure, like a cast supporting things so a bone can knit.
In Cold Days, at the start of Chapter 29, Harry says he's not bound by Winter Law... and looses protection of the WK Mantle. Oh noes! He feels a bunch of pain hit, and fatigue, and goes numb from the waist down... I'm pretty sure that was Mab, directly intervening, specifically to deceive Harry.
Before that had happened? Lacuna & her posse had got their iron nails (and her fish-hooks) into Harry and negated the Mantle... but Harry could still feel the pain below his waist, and still move his legs... Ergo, he is no longer actually paralyzed. But it suits Mab for Harry to keep thinking she has that hold over him.
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There was no medical assessment of Harry’s spinal injury, he assumed his back was broken resulting in permanent paralysis. Mab would not disabuse him of that notion, if it got her her Winter Knight.
Harry may have merely have had an injury resulting in a temporary paralysis with sensation and function largely returning once the initial trauma had subsided. Months not decades to heal. He still needed the Winter Knight Mantle, but he intended to cheat Mab, so Mab cheated him right back (pun intended). By Cold Days he had healed.
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There was no medical assessment of Harry’s spinal injury, he assumed his back was broken resulting in permanent paralysis. Mab would not disabuse him of that notion, if it got her her Winter Knight.
Harry may have merely have had an injury resulting in a temporary paralysis with sensation and function largely returning once the initial trauma had subsided. Months not decades to heal. He still needed the Winter Knight Mantle, but he intended to cheat Mab, so Mab cheated him right back (pun intended). By Cold Days he had healed.
That is true, no x-rays were taken.. However he also got what he needed, instant rehab even if it wasn't broken so he could save his daughter. Though from Uriel's reaction to his condition I wouldn't bet against it being broken either. And yes, Mab demonstrated that she could return his back to it's previous condition.
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So did Christos really die? If he did I guess he wasn't in the Black Council ( or the Circle if you prefer) then he just was a stupid politician probably being used as a catspaw by them at least..
So if he's actually dead then whose up next? Klaus the Toymaker finally?
Where did Christos die? I thought he had been badly injured -- burned, actually. Personally, I suspect that Christos is NOT Black Council and I also suspect that he is not particularly anti-Dresden. He is, of course, monumentally self-important as all wizards are.
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My reading has Christ’s died, the Merlin was holding onto LTW and Ebs proxies whilst in surgery, with the Gatekeeper at the Gates he held three votes out of five, leaving Mai and a badly shaken Martha Liberty. The Sprites display didn’t do Harry a favour in that respect with Martha.
Christos I think was Jim’s attempt at a Pratchett Wizard, and he was definitely being used by the Merlin as a stalking horse. He wasn’t Black Council, if he had been he wouldn’t have been in Chicago.
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Just because he isn't mentioned doesn't mean he is dead.
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His utility to the narrative is at an end. There is no point to internal White Council politics now they have thrown Harry out.
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His utility to the narrative is at an end. There is no point to internal White Council politics now they have thrown Harry out.
My question is did he ever have any utility? Oh we readers did a lot of speculation about him, but as a character he was almost nil to begin with. Of the Senior Council, the members that have had any significant interaction with Harry are, Eb, the Merlin, Rashid, and Listens to Wind. Martha Liberty got a few lines, but between Summer Knight and Battle Ground she may well have never existed, the same goes for Ancient Mai
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His utility was as a Pratchett type wizard, (a homage I believe to the late Sir Terry) exactly the butt of Drakul’s jibe, and which played off beautifully in Peace Talks when Lara manipulates him in to bringing Thomas to the Castle.
Butcher had a lot of time for Pratchett as did Harry, the adage “make a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set a man on fire and he’s warm for the rest of life.” Could have been made for Harry. There are a large number of Fomor not in a position to argue with it.
Sometimes a character is just that, the set up of a joke.
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... Though from Uriel's reaction to his condition I wouldn't bet against it being broken either ...
I'm pretty sure Uriel explicitly said it was broken; that healing was possible (because wizards who live can apparently heal almost anything) but would not be quick.
I don't think Uriel would explicitly lie to Harry, not even to advance the presumptive Uriel/Mab plan to load up Harry with ALL DA K3WL 9OWERZ.
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I'm pretty sure Uriel explicitly said it was broken; that healing was possible (because wizards who live can apparently heal almost anything) but would not be quick.
I don't have the book in front of me, but what I remember Uriel saying is something like,"I see your problem." So he did imply heavily that it was, but never said it was. But we focus too much on the broken spine bit, people do break their backs and recover and walk. Now a severed spinal cord is another matter all together, and a wizard may recover from that in forty years or so.. Though today's medicine improves daily, most vanilla humans never do. Uriel also said though he could fix it, he wouldn't fix it because of the rules he was working under.
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He knew Harry was working to a deadline, And there was no way without supernatural intervention for him to meet it, and that he could not provide that intervention. He knew he was pushing Harry towards Mab.
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He knew Harry was working to a deadline, And there was no way without supernatural intervention for him to meet it, and that he could not provide that intervention. He knew he was pushing Harry towards Mab.
I don't know if he was pushing Harry towards Mab.. Harry still had free will and choices, his problem was his choices were , bad, worse, and worst. Harry was trying to use that as a threat, but even if he chose worst, there wouldn't have been anything Uriel could have done about it because it was still Harry's free will to choose. All he could offer was the confirmation that Maggie was his daughter, and if he chose out of love he wouldn't stray so far off the path, that he couldn't get back. Harry chose bad, or Mab over his other choices. However I also think that Uriel knew what Harry would choose, and what he was planning as he knew who had whispered in his ear when he chose. I also think that Uriel may have made the wind blow just enough so that though the bullet did hit Harry in the heart, it wouldn't result in instant death allowing Mab to keep him alive after he hit the water.
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Oh yes Uriel believes in free will.
So does Mab.
How did that work out for Harry?
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Oh yes Uriel believes in free will.
So does Mab.
How did that work out for Harry?
Mab believes in purpose, finding your purpose.
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Mab is the ultimate pragmatist.
Aside from her vengeances, she is focused on one goal, defending reality from the Outsiders.
If you don't have that context, then she comes across as evil but even her cruelest acts are in pursuit of a greater good.
Harry is just starting to see the whole picture and no longer sees her as evil. But he's rightfully frightened by what she's capable of because she makes her decisions without any consideration for kindness and compassion.
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Mab is the ultimate pragmatist.
Aside from her vengeances, she is focused on one goal, defending reality from the Outsiders.
If you don't have that context, then she comes across as evil but even her cruelest acts are in pursuit of a greater good.
Harry is just starting to see the whole picture and no longer sees her as evil. But he's rightfully frightened by what she's capable of because she makes her decisions without any consideration for kindness and compassion.
I agree. I've never seen Mab as evil, she is a force of nature, neither good nor evil. As we know nature can be cruel as well as kind, in that context she guards the Gates.
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Yes she was originally described as the evil faerie queen, but that was because most saw only the outcomes of the hard (but correct) choices she made without compromise.
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Yes she was originally described as the evil faerie queen, but that was because most saw only the outcomes of the hard (but correct) choices she made without compromise.
Oh Mab's frozen boogers! :o