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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: seanham on October 15, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
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"Contemplation," I responded quietly. "He is to be shielded from any communication with other prisoners not enduring the same protocol."
"There was one prisoner held below in a kind of unique stasis, something that could most closely be considered sleep, though he could also awaken and perform limited communications for short periods of time."
Page 322 Peace Talks Hardback addition
On a recent re-read of PT, I came across these two almost through away lines, but I think they could have large story implications. I assume the original prisoner being held in status is the one from Skin Game. Assuming this is correct, then Thomas can talk with that prisoner. Will this be a good or bad thing for them both? What story things might come up because of it? Thoughts?
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I think this is where the thing about DR not being able to permanently hold beings with free will comes into play. They'll certainly end up talking, the real question is who's going to influence who more and what that means when they get back into play. He'll probably impart some wisdom to Thomas and Thomas may revive his interest in the outside world enough to get him to come out.
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If you're asking for speculation I'll give you some.
If this was a hard scifi story I'd say that he was a sleeper. One who comes out periodically to check his ships status, do maintenance and then go back into stasis. Waiting for his ship to arrive at its destination. So who could that be?
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Imagine if Thomas gets information that he realizes puts Harry in horrible danger (Stars and Stones, or being a Starborn, or both), but can't do anything. Talk about torture.
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If you're asking for speculation I'll give you some.
If this was a hard scifi story I'd say that he was a sleeper. One who comes out periodically to check his ships status, do maintenance and then go back into stasis. Waiting for his ship to arrive at its destination. So who could that be?
Maybe.... Merlin?
Prisoner sounds somewhat British. Doesn't try to ask his way out, or threaten. We don't know how/when/where Merlin died. Harry even said it at one point. Maybe he didn't.
Merlin built the place.
Merlin once carried one of the Swords - was it Amoracchius? Michael/Arthur's?
Merlin founded the Council - Eb has his journals.
Merlin wakes every few years to see if he is needed. Checks around, goes back to bed. Sleep time on DR doesn't count towards his age, it's stasis. Plus, wizards live a long time, and many accounts have Merlin as only partly human, he's a scion like Kincaid.
Marches out in the BAT? Merlin a Starborn?
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Historically Merlin does sleep in a cave, versions vary, some say he is being held prisoner. I've always speculated that he is Merlin. One could speculate that after creating the prison, he looked back on his own life and actions and they came up short, so he "committed himself" to the prison, not unlike one does if one is insane for treatment.
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Heinlein wrote a book called The Door Into Summer. The protagonist uses cold sleep to get to the future. Finds that something he did indicates that he went to the past. He goes to the past in a time machine and once more cold sleeps his way back. One loop and out.
I think Harry is in that cell. He needs to be there because if it was known it might change the future in a way he couldn't predict. Vadderung probably knows, he hinted something like this in Cold Days when he say "Perhaps you already have." in response to the question of if Harry could stop the attack.
It would explain why Demonreach is in Lake Michigan near Chicago. Why Harry felt the intellectus the first time he visited. Why he was able to bind Demonreach. Why Mab is fixated on Harry. Who was able to get past his Wards to fix LC. And so on.
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Hasn't it been stated several times by WOJ that the prisoner is not Merlin or Harry?
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We've been told it's not Merlin:
The original Merlin, does he sound British?
He’d probably sound so unintelligibly British that you wouldn’t be able to tell he was speaking English. No, he’s not the guy in Demonreach.
Via https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-mortal-allies/
No word on if it's Harry... though I'm not sure why Harry would have an accent. IIRC, Chandler does, but I'd think Harry would recognize his voice, so it's probably not Chandler either.
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Jim is hoist on his own petard since another WOJ says that he would lie to protect the plot.
Language makes no difference at all. Toot Toot can understand Russian. So maybe the Mantle has potentials that Harry has not yet cracked. Otherwise what was Jim trying to accomplish with that tidbit? You know, introducing the idea that Toot can speak Russian, randomly, out of nowhere.
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Jim is hoist on his own petard since another WOJ says that he would lie to protect the plot.
Language makes no difference at all. Toot Toot can understand Russian. So maybe the Mantle has potentials that Harry has not yet cracked. Otherwise what was Jim trying to accomplish with that tidbit? You know, introducing the idea that Toot can speak Russian, randomly, out of nowhere.
Also there is this, hasn't Harry mentioned that he hasn't gotten too far assessing the prisoners because too much of that kind of communication or contact can drive him insane, just a little of it and he has nightmares for days. At least that is how I remember his explanation, anyway my point is, from this tidbit of information it appears that Harry doesn't have to know the language to understand the prisoners. So the "British Prisoner, maybe Merlin, doesn't have to speak perfectly accented English for Harry to understand him in perfect English. In other words there is a universal translator on the island, maybe one of Alfred's many jobs, whatever language the prisoners speak, Harry hears it in his mind as perfect English.
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The English Prisoner is in my opinion Bob’s dad, WOJ has it is someone we have been introduced to in series, and that may be ALL that very brief exchange was set up to do, at least at this point, because all it is, is a bloody introduction.
I think it is likely a historical Wizard from a fair way back, an apprentice of the Merlin, who was around about 1,000 years ago (given Bob’s age) and hiding out because it was he who found out how to kill immortals (which is where Bob got the info from)that would have made him contemporaneous to Mab when she was the Lady. I don’t think Mab is Bob’s mum, I think Lea given she is a muse, inspiring a man to and early death and he was so excited to see her in GP.
On that basis I fancy Michael Scot/Scotus The Wizard of the North, nice dubious date and place of birth so he could given a Wizards lifespan have been around a couple of centuries earlier under a different name. Had a habit of wearing a skull cap made of iron (the perfect contraceptive for a Fae muse, or to stop his mind being read) and has links in folklore to the Redcap.
We have been given hints of Mab’s past in BG, but Scotus could know firsthand, and how the relationships Mab had with Lea and the Redcap began, and much of the early history of the Court including Tam Lin, Harry’s most illustrious predecessor as Winter Knight and how he got away. He would be made of pure exposition, and likely Eb’s grandfather/ great grandfather/ great great grandfather making Bob Harry’s uncle several times removed. Would Jim set up a joke with its denouement a couple of decades later? yes, definitely.
Of course Jim could be lying and it is the time looped Merlin who is also Future Harry, his denials have I believe always one or the other, not both at the same time.
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Of course Jim could be lying and it is the time looped Merlin who is also Future Harry, his denials have I believe always one or the other, not both at the same time.
Or as the god of the Dresden Files, he is free to change his mind..
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I see the humor of it, but if he don't have a Mantle how does he speak a modern language.
And thus we go round and round and get dizzy.
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...so... when he gets to the reveal, he says "and Bob's your uncle!"?
( probably play better in the UK?)
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I see the humor of it, but if he don't have a Mantle how does he speak a modern language.
And thus we go round and round and get dizzy.
That is why the Star Trek or better DR Who explanation is a good work around, or good science fiction story for that matter Star Trek, implanted universal translator. DR Who, when traveling in time in the TARDIS, language where ever he/she and his/her companion goes the TARDIS translates the language automatically of the place where they land. Alfred or the island does that automatically, keeps misunderstandings to a minimum, Alfred and or the Warden have to be able to understand what anyone trying to venture onto the island are saying. So what ever language the "British Prisoner" is saying, Harry hears it in English, Thomas could very well also if it is cleared for him to listen to communication.
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@Mira
I could make up several plausible ways that speech could be translated. That isn't my point. If the prisoner is some old moldy guy from way back when he would be just as unintelligible as Merlin.
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I see the humor of it, but if he don't have a Mantle how does he speak a modern language.
And thus we go round and round and get dizzy.
well, he wasn't actually speaking so... What Harry heard was all technically a translation of thoughts. Almost like say, the outer gates are put into terms he can understand. Whoever it is has a rudimentary enough vocabulary to know "piss off", the puts him possibly around the Anglo-Saxon/gaol merger? The thoughts of someone who knows speech would be similar enough.
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@Mira
I could make up several plausible ways that speech could be translated. That isn't my point. If the prisoner is some old moldy guy from way back when he would be just as unintelligible as Merlin.
Why would he, the same rules for translation apply.. If you go with the idea that Merlin is from Roman times, he could be speaking Latin, or if you go with him speaking Anglo-Saxon, it would be translated into Harry's head. Having said that it doesn't mean it is Merlin, Harry hears Outsiders in an British accent.. Perhaps Jim just like to write them? Harry also understands some of the bigger monsters in the prison if he cares to study them and their thoughts are communicated to him.. I doubt that they are intelligible, but still he understands them.
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@Mira
I could make up several plausible ways that speech could be translated. That isn't my point. If the prisoner is some old moldy guy from way back when he would be just as unintelligible as Merlin.
They are locked in crystal. Their mouths are not moving, they aren't speaking in an audible way. Any communication being done will be done telepathically which means that language probably doesn't matter. If the person were Japanese, and only spoke Japanese, Harry could probably still understand them because he is getting the message they are trying to convey.
At least that's how I think it works. Remember that Chauncy, a demon in the Never Never spoke to Harry with a British accent as well. Don't think Chauncy is British though.
Harry's mind might be causing him to hear it that way because on some level he's perceiving them as an aristocrat, and thinks of them having an accent like that.
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They are locked in crystal. Their mouths are not moving, they aren't speaking in an audible way. Any communication being done will be done telepathically which means that language probably doesn't matter. If the person were Japanese, and only spoke Japanese, Harry could probably still understand them because he is getting the message they are trying to convey.
At least that's how I think it works. Remember that Chauncy, a demon in the Never Never spoke to Harry with a British accent as well. Don't think Chauncy is British though.
Harry's mind might be causing him to hear it that way because on some level he's perceiving them as an aristocrat, and thinks of them having an accent like that.
That makes sense as well, and yes, Jim must have a thing for British accents, or Harry does..
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For Chauncy, the point is to disarm Harry. For the English prisoner it has to be misdirection. Assume for the moment that it is some kind of universal translator, why would Harry hear it as anything other then the idiom he was raised with? And if Harry's brain is making it up again the same question. I'm calling Jim out on this one. While I may have fell on my head as a child and damaged myself, I didn't do that much damage. He's hiding something.
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For Chauncy, the point is to disarm Harry. For the English prisoner it has to be misdirection. Assume for the moment that it is some kind of universal translator, why would Harry hear it as anything other then the idiom he was raised with? And if Harry's brain is making it up again the same question. I'm calling Jim out on this one. While I may have fell on my head as a child and damaged myself, I didn't do that much damage. He's hiding something.
Yeah, there is probably more to it than what I suggested. That being said there is the chance that because of Harry's Intellectus, the universal translator is taking the origin of the person locked up, and giving them that accent for Harry (modern accent, not past).
On the other hand, if Harry really is hearing the person as they are, then it would indicate the prisoner is a more recent addition. Probably from the last Warden and within the last 50 years or so (I thought someone pointed out the lingo used was pretty recent)
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On the other hand, if Harry really is hearing the person as they are, then it would indicate the prisoner is a more recent addition. Probably from the last Warden and within the last 50 years or so (I thought someone pointed out the lingo used was pretty recent)
Not necessarily, think in terms of reading a novel, as we read the words, pictures and sounds form in our brains interpreting what we read. To us the characters appear as they are, but to someone else reading the exact same words, the picture and voice that the brain relays may be totally different. Heck this very site is an example of that, we are all reading the same words, but we see them differently.
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Not necessarily, think in terms of reading a novel, as we read the words, pictures and sounds form in our brains interpreting what we read. To us the characters appear as they are, but to someone else reading the exact same words, the picture and voice that the brain relays may be totally different. Heck this very site is an example of that, we are all reading the same words, but we see them differently.
True. I just reread it. Considering the prisoner said "The way you novices always do" strongly suggests he's had experiences with many Wardens. So been locked up a long time.
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On that basis I fancy Michael Scot/Scotus The Wizard of the North, nice dubious date and place of birth so he could given a Wizards lifespan have been around a couple of centuries earlier under a different name. Had a habit of wearing a skull cap made of iron (the perfect contraceptive for a Fae muse, or to stop his mind being read) and has links in folklore to the Redcap.
We know JB likes his pop culture references. Some heavyweight coming out of stasis and not understanding all the references to The Office that other characters are making would be a good gag.
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True. I just reread it. Considering the prisoner said "The way you novices always do" strongly suggests he's had experiences with many Wardens. So been locked up a long time.
Yup, he has been there for possibly eons. Some things do point to him possibly being Merlin, though I think Jim is keeping his options open.
Many myths surrounding Merlin, one says he sleeps in a cave in Cornwall, England, some even say in crystal. Bulfinch's Mythology has an intriguing blurb about Merlin being trapped in a thorn bush by the Lady of the Lake and he sleeps there still, "though his voice may sometimes be heard." So no thorn bush, but our prisoner seems to sleep a lot, demands to be left alone to sleep, and is sometimes heard. In fact he is the only prisoner that we know of that Harry has ever talked with. He is imprisoned in a cave and in crystal, so a lot of "hint, hint" that it could be Merlin, but they still may all add up to nothing.