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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on September 08, 2017, 07:33:40 PM
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For those that think Simon is Cowl... Why did he fake his death? What purpose did that serve? What did he gain, other than the deaths of the brute squad, which likely could have been arranged without taking himself "out" in the process?
Reasons provided so far, here or previously:
- Freedom to work without any possibility of suspicion of himself, thus preventing any allies or opponents with intimate knowledge of his methods and history from ferreting him out.
- Elimination of the Brute Squad, one of the Council's most valuable wartime resources, in the early days of the war.
- Avoidance of anyone familiar with his magical aura from detecting changes in it due to more extensive use of dark magic.
- Ability to provide the Ramps with Council intelligence and modus operandi without the Council knowing such information was compromised.
- Ability to dedicate almost all of his time to his goals, rather than splitting time between them and having to work publicly in the Council's interests.
- Ability to move freely, without the need for Council bodyguards that would be mandatory during wartime.
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Reasons not to fake his death, and counterpoints:
- Remaining on the Council would allow him to influence the war effort. He wouldn't be able to influence it any better than Peabody could.
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Freedom to act. As not only a Senior Council member, but the Council's vampire expert, he would've been under close eye and expected to coordinate if not lead most of the council's martial efforts in the war. Possibly he had plans that required more of his time and more privacy than that would allow.
Plus, faking his death lets him rob the council of him as an asset in the war, as well as the brute squad and anyone else he had with him.
That's presuming he didn't fake their deaths, too.
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Freedom to act. As not only a Senior Council member, but the Council's vampire expert, he would've been under close eye and expected to coordinate if not lead most of the council's martial efforts in the war. Possibly he had plans that required more of his time and more privacy than that would allow.
Plus, faking his death lets him rob the council of him as an asset in the war, as well as the brute squad and anyone else he had with him.
That's presuming he didn't fake their deaths, too.
Agreed. He can't very well run around doing Cowl things if he's expected to be somewhere else as part of his senior council duties. Plus being thought dead is a great cover if any reports do make it back to the Council of a baddie throwing around world-class amounts of personal power.
In terms of faking the brute squad's deaths too, I'm sure most of them really were loyal and did die there. It's possible a few traitors may have gone with him though - that's one of the theories for Kumori, though I'm not sure it fits with her identity eventually causing Harry pain.
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I'm not sure about the necessity of faking his death to have the freedom to act. Eb has been a Senior Council member almost from the start of the war, but it hasn't stopped him from secretly founding and recruiting a rebel force under the nose of the Council. That same force has met with other factions (Vadderung, etc) without the Council knowing, and Eb has run side missions with his personally selected Council squad (mentioned in DB, I believe) without any oversight.
Avoiding suspicion of working with the enemy also strikes me as an unnecessary concern. If he hadn't faked Archangel, he'd be in charge of the war effort, and would be all but beyond suspicion. If he faked it, and had only himself and a handful of his loyal personnel survive, then their presumed desire for vengeance would put them completely beyond suspicion.
I'm not seeing a real benefit to faking his death for those reasons alone. Are there any other reasons anyone can think of?
Would he need to do it for some reason to avoid the attention of other forces? (i.e. Vadderung, Mab, etc) Could his "death" have made a change to himself? One that would remove him from the detection of the Fates/Mothers, whom would otherwise know what he was really doing and could potentially reveal him to the Council if they learned he was using Outsiders, and therefore treading on their purpose?
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Eb has been a Senior Council member almost from the start of the war, but it hasn't stopped him from secretly founding and recruiting a rebel force under the nose of the Council.
Ebenezar and Rashid have a particular degree of latitude to act privately due to their particular jobs that's probably not available to the others. Most of them seem to have Warden bodyguards a lot of the time.
Besides which, a lot of people have made convincing arguments that the Grey Council has Langtry's private blessing, much like Harry's side investigation into LaFortier's murder.
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Cowl has been playing with necromancy and outsiders. A lot. I am sure he is taking all sorts of precautions, but I suspect there is a limit to how much he can shield himself from the consequences of that. I suspect Cowl's magical energies are starting to show as tainted. Maybe not to casual contact, but there is a lot more scrutiny during wartime and the risk of being "outed" are going to be an order of magnitude higher because of that.
Evidence - Harry was still actively resisting Lashiel, but in some degree of verbal contact with Lashiel. Lashiel was actively hiding her presence. Yet there was a scene where Eb clearly detected something even if he was not sure what. That was with a pretty light taint still heavily resisted. That pretty strongly implies that those wizards have a nose for detecting taints.
And I agree that the freedom of action granted by being dead is huge. he can devote maybe 70% of his time to the cause (with the other 30% on staying hidden) as opposed to maybe 5-10% (best case) if he was still actively a council member and mostly forced to operate as a heavily guarded/observed/tracked member of the senior council.
The above assumes Cowl = Simon. Not myself certain about this, but the logic of him being Cowl is quite believable.
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Ebenezar and Rashid have a particular degree of latitude to act privately due to their particular jobs that's probably not available to the others. Most of them seem to have Warden bodyguards a lot of the time.
Besides which, a lot of people have made convincing arguments that the Grey Council has Langtry's private blessing, much like Harry's side investigation into LaFortier's murder.
I don't doubt that Langtry knows about the Gray's, even if he's not supportive of the idea.
But as to Simon, I still don't see how he'd be impeded. If he's got some loyal Brutes, they can act as his guard, leaving him free to do as he sees fit. He can use his status as war leader and Brute leader to hold secret meetings with "sources", all the while directing the Council's efforts in a disastrous campaign.
Additionally, the Blouncil effort to put Cristos onto the Senior Council is to gain the influence Simon theoretically gave up. It's taking a step forward, only to step back again.
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Cowl has been playing with necromancy and outsiders. A lot. I am sure he is taking all sorts of precautions, but I suspect there is a limit to how much he can shield himself from the consequences of that. I suspect Cowl's magical energies are starting to show as tainted. Maybe not to casual contact, but there is a lot more scrutiny during wartime and the risk of being "outed" are going to be an order of magnitude higher because of that.
Evidence - Harry was still actively resisting Lashiel, but in some degree of verbal contact with Lashiel. Lashiel was actively hiding her presence. Yet there was a scene where Eb clearly detected something even if he was not sure what. That was with a pretty light taint still heavily resisted. That pretty strongly implies that those wizards have a nose for detecting taints.
And I agree that the freedom of action granted by being dead is huge. he can devote maybe 70% of his time to the cause (with the other 30% on staying hidden) as opposed to maybe 5-10% (best case) if he was still actively a council member and mostly forced to operate as a heavily guarded/observed/tracked member of the senior council.
The above assumes Cowl = Simon. Not myself certain about this, but the logic of him being Cowl is quite believable.
The avoidance of magical detection of changes to his aura is a good point. I'd argue that few would know Simon like Eb knows Harry, but since Simon was friends with three of the most powerful wizards, and would be scrutinized by the others for political reasons, he'd have reason to fear a change in his aura being perceived.
Especially if he had to do dark things to prepare for the Darkhallow. Harry easily detects Cowl's aura as being dark. That'd be a remarkable change for someone pure enough to be put on the SC. He'd have to have Palpatine-levels of power suppression and stealth (as would Cristos if he were Cowl) to avoid the Council saying, "hey, wait, this guy smells rotten")
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Not just change in aura -- if Harry's any indication, the stain of Black Magic is recognizable, even if you're not familiar with the Wizard you're looking at.
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Red Court sought to destroy a major white council strike force and possibly turn some number of them. Use of a death curse could destroy some fraction of the Reds and potentially prevent the turning of some number of wizards.
Don't have thoughts as to simon and cowl at the moment.
I prefer to take it at face value that Simon was taken out by the Reds. There was a mention that the Reds had access to a new power that they hadn't had before which made their attack against Archangel effective. It should also be noted that Peabody could have tampered with someone there that created some weakness that the Reds could exploit. My main view though is that some element of the Reds were working with the Outsiders and it was this extra power that allowed the Reds to do more than they otherwise would have been able to do.
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Not just change in aura -- if Harry's any indication, the stain of Black Magic is recognizable, even if you're not familiar with the Wizard you're looking at.
But is there a way to mask it? Cowl was making deals with bad guys back in GP, before Simon died. Was he squeaky clean up until SK? Or if there a way to conceal it? If not, then Peabody should have reeked of dark magic after mentally manipulating people for years.
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He had to split his time between Simon's life, and the life of Cowl. He could no longer split that time effectively as his work as Cowl was becoming a more active participant rather than someone lurking in the shadows. Suspicion would grow, and the connection would be made by someone on the Council. He had to end the charade. Kemmler had to end the life he'd started when he swapped bodies with Simon. The body swap is why Kemmler is not as powerful as he once was.
Not just change in aura -- if Harry's any indication, the stain of Black Magic is recognizable, even if you're not familiar with the Wizard you're looking at.
Cowl according to Kumori can defend himself against a death curse (an incredible ability which indicates that Cowl is very formidable). The Blackstaff can remove dark magical taint. It seems likely that there are ways to remove, or mask dark magic from ones self.
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Kemmler had to end the life he'd started when he swapped bodies with Simon. The body swap is why Kemmler is not as powerful as he once was.
Cowl was a known Kemmler collaborator whom the other Kemmlerites knew. Neither Mab nor Luccio flinched at the name-drop. "Cowl" is a known individual.
So is the argument that Simon was always Cowl? In which case, how did he act as both Senior Council/Council member and Kemmler aide and agent during the war? Because that's what's being argued as unlikely for the current war.
Or is the argument that Cowl was always a facade of Kemmler's, allowing him to operate without his own identity? And he then swapped with Simon before his final "death"? And none of Simon's close friends noticed that he'd changed? A change that even Harry picked up on in moments with Corpsetaker/Luccio, an accomplished body swapper that has experience replacing people?
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Cowl was a known Kemmler collaborator whom the other Kemmlerites knew. Neither Mab nor Luccio flinched at the name-drop. "Cowl" is a known individual.
Was he? I thought that when Harry called Cowl a Kemmlerite, he showed what almost appeared as disgust. If my random theory rings true that disgust would be because he considers them weak, and pathetic by comparison, and didn't like being compared to them. More likely he's someone who does not consider himself a follower of Kemmler.
So is the argument that Simon was always Cowl?
Well I feel that more likely is Simon is Cowl, but not Kemmler. However if Kemmler did pull a body switch then no, Cowl was not a Kemmlerite, and has only been around since Kemmler's "death".
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Was he? I thought that when Harry called Cowl a Kemmlerite, he showed what almost appeared as disgust. If my random theory rings true that disgust would be because he considers them weak, and pathetic by comparison, and didn't like being compared to them. More likely he's someone who does not consider himself a follower of Kemmler.
Neither Mab nor Luccio protest the name Cowl as one of Kemmler's disciples.
“Grevane yet seeks it?”
“Yeah. Him and at least two more. Cowl and the Corpsetaker.”
Mab lifted a pale hand and tapped a finger to rich, lovely lips
the color of frozen mulberries. Her nails were colored with
shining opalescence gorgeous to the eye and distracting as
hell. I felt a little dizzy until I forced myself not to look at them.
“Dangerous,” she mused. “You have fallen among deadly
company, mortal. Even the Council fears them.”
“At least three apprentices to the necromancer Kemmler are
here in Chicago,” I said. “They found the fourth book. They’re
going to use it tonight.”
There was a stunned silence from the other end of the phone.
“Hello?” I said.
“Are you sure?” Luccio asked. Her voice had a faint Italian
accent. “How do you know who they are?”
“All those zombies and ghosts were sort of a giveaway,” I
said. “I confronted them. They identified themselves as
Grevane, Cowl, and Capiorcorpus, and they each had a
drummer with them.”
“Dio,”Luccio said. “Do you know where they are?”
“Not yet, but I’m working on it,” I said. “Can you
help?”
“Affirmative,” Luccio said. “We will dispatch Wardens to
Chicago immediately. They will arrive at your apartment within
six hours.”
“Might not be the best place,” I said. “I was attacked there last
night, and my wards got torn apart. The apartment may be
under surveillance.”
“Understood. Then we will rendezvous at the alternate
location.”
I checked the notebook. I’d have to meet them at McAnally’s.
“Gotcha,” I said.
“Che cosa?” she asked.
“Uh, understood, Warden,” I said. “Six hours, alternate
location. Don’t skimp on the personnel, either. These folks are
serious.”
“I am familiar with Kemmler’s disciples,” she said, though her
tone was more one of agreement than reprimand.
And while he protested the association with Kemmler early on, Cowl later admitted to communicating with the others with a common history with Kemmler.
“I don’t get it,” I said. “I thought that you guys hated one
another’s guts.”
“Oh, yes.”
“Then are you working together or trying to kill each other?” I asked.
“Why, yes,” Cowl said, and what sounded like a genuine laugh
bubbled in his voice. “We smile at one another and play nicely
all in the name of Kemmler’s greater glory, of course."
Well I feel that more likely is Simon is Cowl, but not Kemmler. However if Kemmler did pull a body switch then no, Cowl was not a Kemmlerite, and has only been around since Kemmler's "death".
I'm not sure either works very well with the arguments being made about time requirements to double-face a war and friends detecting changes in aura.
Note that I'm not one that thinks it's too much to be both Simon/Cristos and Cowl. I think either could do both, the latter being an easier job because he wasn't a Senior while planning the Darkhallow. But I think Simon still could have done both, which is why I was looking for reasons he would have faked his death.
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Simon was said to be the council expert on the vampire courts, so I bet that his lore is very valuable. I wondered if there was something unique about the vampire courts. Somehow these seven predatory races, each got a place on the accords. While different, these seven races see each other as some kind of extended kin. I always believed that implied some kind of common origin. My bet is they are each the result of magical creation or outsider influence.
Due to mavra and the kemmler book, I suspect we will see a lot of the BCV in the end. I bet Simon lore on them, would be very useful. We also know there will be a lot of power plays with the Wcv, so their lore would be seen. The rest of the lore could just be used to leverage the remaining vampire courts into the conflict.
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Cowl was a known Kemmler collaborator whom the other Kemmlerites knew. Neither Mab nor Luccio flinched at the name-drop. "Cowl" is a known individual.
So is the argument that Simon was always Cowl? In which case, how did he act as both Senior Council/Council member and Kemmler aide and agent during the war? Because that's what's being argued as unlikely for the current war.
Or is the argument that Cowl was always a facade of Kemmler's, allowing him to operate without his own identity? And he then swapped with Simon before his final "death"? And none of Simon's close friends noticed that he'd changed? A change that even Harry picked up on in moments with Corpsetaker/Luccio, an accomplished body swapper that has experi ence replacing people?
This is a very good point against why Simon/Cowl chose his timing for faking his death. Why now and not then? Based on how Grevane, Corpsetaker, and Cowl interact, it suggests that Cowl was the newest member to Kemmler's circle of disciples. I think that Cowl used Kemmler for knowledge without drinking the kool-aid that the other two did. Cowl seems to be a wait, see, then act at an opportune moment type of person. He waited until Grevane was dead to drop his zombie illusion and make a play for the power. For Simon/Cowl to fake his death might be an act of necessity and timing.
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Neither Mab nor Luccio protest the name Cowl as one of Kemmler's disciples.And while he protested the association with Kemmler early on, Cowl later admitted to communicating with the others with a common history with Kemmler.I'm not sure either works very well with the arguments being made about time requirements to double-face a war and friends detecting changes in aura.
Note that I'm not one that thinks it's too much to be both Simon/Cristos and Cowl. I think either could do both, the latter being an easier job because he wasn't a Senior while planning the Darkhallow. But I think Simon still could have done both, which is why I was looking for reasons he would have faked his death.
My theory
(http://netanimations.net/Animated-clip-art-down-in-flames.gif)
Well the main reason for Simon to fake his death if he's Cowl would be because he knew everything was going to be heating up. He would be hard pressed to be working behind the scenes if he's surrounded by people who are protecting a Senior Council member during a time of war. Much easier to fake his death so he can work full time as Cowl.
My personal belief as to why Simon is Cowl is because he was Justin's teacher. I think he was probably secretly related to Justin the same way it wasn't common knowledge that Eb and Maggie were family.
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My theory
(http://netanimations.net/Animated-clip-art-down-in-flames.gif)
Not necessarily. It just requires the ability to multitask and conceal corrupted aura, at least one of which would be absolutely required for anyone on the Council, Senior or otherwise, to be Cowl.
Well the main reason for Simon to fake his death if he's Cowl would be because he knew everything was going to be heating up. He would be hard pressed to be working behind the scenes if he's surrounded by people who are protecting a Senior Council member during a time of war. Much easier to fake his death so he can work full time as Cowl.
Unless he has loyal Brutes, which he could use as his guard. But that's theoretical, and not supported by the text. Faking one death would be difficult; faking several is just asking to get caught. They said the "entire" Brute Squad was killed, so I doubt many were loyal enough to be in on the secret, but not loyal enough to spare.
My personal belief as to why Simon is Cowl is because he was Justin's teacher. I think he was probably secretly related to Justin the same way it wasn't common knowledge that Eb and Maggie were family.
I lean more towards DuMorne being a loyal Brute, if Simon really is Cowl. He's either a bad egg, or he was crafted to be a rebel agent against the Council.
Which makes you wonder about Margaret. Was she just a bad egg? Did she see the hypocrisy earlier than Harry did (discovering her father's role) and decide to break the wheel? Or was she too being crafted?
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Cowl has been playing with necromancy and outsiders. A lot. I am sure he is taking all sorts of precautions, but I suspect there is a limit to how much he can shield himself from the consequences of that. I suspect Cowl's magical energies are starting to show as tainted.
Point of order, Cowl seems not to have any direct contact with Outsiders. In his fight with Dresden Harry notes that his magic lacks the usual nauseating, greasy, somehow empty feel that I'd come to associate with the worst black magic.
Butcher uses this kind of descriptives almost exclusively for Outsider influence/magic. Stands to reason that Cowl doesn't have direct contact with Outsiders, or at worst is so skilled with his magic that he can avoid being tainted by his contact with them.
But back on the topic, I agree with most reasons stated here. Freedom to act without any scrutiny being a big one, and as most people said being the Councils expert on Vampire he would have been in high demand during the War.
His Vampire expertise is one too but in a different way. Every time we see a Cowl sponsored plot going on, vampires are somewhat connected to it.
Dead Beat - the offensive of the Red Court was scheduled with the Dark Hallow.
White Night - Cowl was the one to steer the Skavis into betraying his Court.
The whole plot showed a deep understanding of White Court Vampires psychology, which as Ramirez mentioned is NOT common knowledge amongst Wizards or Warden. It is actually so suspect to understand a White Courts psyche that it was enough for Ramirez to suspect Dresden of backdoor dealing with the Court when he showed it. So this definitely implies that Cowl is a Wizard with above standard knowledge of at least the White Court - say like Simmon the Council expert on Vampires.
His style of magic, but this one can honestly go both ways for Simon or Justine so I guess it doesn't really count. Harry uses an x shape of his wrists as a defence posture, so does Cowl. If Simon taught Justin and Justine taught Dresden what he knows about battle magic. It makes sense for both of them to have similar gesture. And no, crossed wrists are not a standard position because we see Peabody in Turn Coat using the Doctor Strange gesture as a defensive Sigil.
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Cowl appears to be in charge... But is he? If he isn't, who would you think is calling the shots?
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Just a goofy thought, what if Cowl is pulling a Raistlin? The spirit of a older powerful wizard sharing the lifeforce of another wizard. Just a crazy thought and not something I believe in.
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The thing with necromancers, being dead does not mean they are gone.
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Ive long been a supporter of the Simon= Cowl theory but the idea of a dirty aura stumped me on my recent reread.
the best explanation that still lets Simon be cowl i came up with was that even though he was a follower of kemmler he never did much truly black magic. My thoughts were with Kemmler openly fighting the council for decades it would be a huge help to have a high LVL warden/senior councilman as a mole.
With the aura issue this would mean he only ever did minor black magics and mostly was just a battlemage type loyal to Kemmler. i got the idea from things Ebeneezer said that most truly powerful wizards have done a few dark things so some low level taint wouldn't out him. During dead beat out of the kemmlerites he did mostly normal magics and never really raised any zombies. i also wonder if doing black magics like kumori saving the gunshot victim would add any taint at all because the intent behind it was good.
also when he told dresden about the council soon falling it didn't strike me like something he put a huge amount of effort into but more like it was a side effect of his plans of godhood and conquering death. he seems to never have really drank the kool aid for kemmlers cult and more used them for his own goals of conquering death. It wouldn't seem out of character if he fought with the white council to take out kemmler.
Taking his and kumori's actions as a guide he was far more grey then the rest of the kemmlerites who were fully evil.
As to why he faked his death my guess is he's wanted to pull off the darkhallow since kemmler tried it and thought the biggest war the white council has been in during his lifetime was the best shot. To pull that off he knew he would have to fully blacken his aura so he faked his death during the years of prep that would have went into that so as not to quickly be outed by the rest of the council. with his knowledge of bob his attempt wouldn't have relied on the word of kemmler being found as he could steal bob at any time.
as a side note the aura issue also destroyed my support of Elaine=kumori as dresden saw kumori throw spells and Elaine throw spells in the next book and i feel dresden would have recognized Elaine magic when kumori threw spells or a dark aura in Elaines magic in the next book.
sorry for the bad spelling and grammer
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The biggest argument against Simon being Cowl is really that Cowl was a major discipline of Kemler. Hard to argue that Simon could learn necromancy so well and NOT be obviously tainted magically speaking.
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The biggest argument against Simon being Cowl is really that Cowl was a major discipline of Kemler. Hard to argue that Simon could learn necromancy so well and NOT be obviously tainted magically speaking.
Necromancy used against humans is what taints a person. If Simon worked on nonhumans like animals, he would be free of taint.
Also, whose to say Simon didn't die and surf into a prepared body?
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Regarding the taint ...
I've gotten the impression that all members of the SC have SOME taint. They wouldn't have gotten the power they have if they hadn't made deals, or done things that are pushing close to the edges of the laws.
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What if Simon was used as a sacrifice or summoning? Cowl could be an undead necromancer bound to Simon form.
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that sounds interesting.
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i also wonder if doing black magics like kumori saving the gunshot victim would add any taint at all because the intent behind it was good.
Everything a practitioner does seems to leave some sort of signature on their aura, but in that particular case I think it would show as traces of dark but not exactly evil.
What's most perverted about the way Grevane or Corpsetaker raise undead is that they're enslaving human zombies / ghosts to their will. Kumori presumably would have picked up something more similar to the hints of darkness Harry got from raising Sue - in her case because she was saving a life with dark power but not compelling him to obey her, and in Harry's case because it wasn't a person.
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Everything a practitioner does seems to leave some sort of signature on their aura, but in that particular case I think it would show as traces of dark but not exactly evil.
What's most perverted about the way Grevane or Corpsetaker raise undead is that they're enslaving human zombies / ghosts to their will. Kumori presumably would have picked up something more similar to the hints of darkness Harry got from raising Sue - in her case because she was saving a life with dark power but not compelling him to obey her, and in Harry's case because it wasn't a person.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but ...
She actually was compelling him. Compelling him to NOT die. While most believe this to be a good thing, it's not, necessarily.
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Totally agree that Simon (if cowl) would be very good at making sure he was not tainted by his work (or the taint was hidden). I am arguing that there are limits to his ability to prevent/hide taint. If he is entering the end game, he probably needs to do too much dark magic in too short a time horizon to continue to disguise things reliably.
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Another idea towards Simon=Cowl faking his own death:
As the vampire expert on the SC, they would have looked to him to take charge against the Reds. Cowl would have wanted to play both sides against each other and weaken everyone, but it's hard to steathily self-sabotage when you're in the direct spotlight. If he keeps making the wrong call when the WC is ahead, people are going to start wondering whose side Simon's on.
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There could be another possibility. Someone else stationed at Archangel is Cowl... That they betrayed Simon, and aided the Red Court. When it was said that Simon had defended himself from a Death Curse before, perhaps it was Simon's. Simon targeted multiple targets, Cowl could have been one of them.
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There could be another possibility. Someone else stationed at Archangel is Cowl... That they betrayed Simon, and aided the Red Court. When it was said that Simon had defended himself from a Death Curse before, perhaps it was Simon's. Simon targeted multiple targets, Cowl could have been one of them.
I hadn't considered that. Interesting idea, and perfectly plausible, though narratively it'd be kinda awkward to explain, I think. Imagine Harry uncovering Cowl's identity: "I know how Cowl is. His name is...Steve. Steve Crunderman," and then go on to explain his connection to Simon. It's possible, and it'd be fun to see Harry kind of stumble through an explanation like that.
Here's a question: what was there to know about the Reds that the loss of an expert was really that significant? Everyone knows their main weaknesses; faith magic repels them, sunlight unmasks them, decapitation and blood-bag-stabbin' takes them down. It seems like anything he might know that would be relevant is stuff the Fellowship would, too—locations of Red strongholds, common traits and hunting habits, stuff like that.
Not to speak ill of the fictionally dead, but I think Simon was just padding his resume, like I totally didn't do when I worked as a consultant.
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I hadn't considered that. Interesting idea, and perfectly plausible, though narratively it'd be kinda awkward to explain, I think. Imagine Harry uncovering Cowl's identity: "I know how Cowl is. His name is...Steve. Steve Crunderman," and then go on to explain his connection to Simon. It's possible, and it'd be fun to see Harry kind of stumble through an explanation like that.
Here's a question: what was there to know about the Reds that the loss of an expert was really that significant? Everyone knows their main weaknesses; faith magic repels them, sunlight unmasks them, decapitation and blood-bag-stabbin' takes them down. It seems like anything he might know that would be relevant is stuff the Fellowship would, too—locations of Red strongholds, common traits and hunting habits, stuff like that.
Not to speak ill of the fictionally dead, but I think Simon was just padding his resume, like I totally didn't do when I worked as a consultant.
Simon's expertise had probably more to do with their secret information. Hideouts, financial institutions, connections to supernatural beings who will give up information.
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Here's a question: what was there to know about the Reds that the loss of an expert was really that significant?
I would assume it is the more arcane minutia, like when Harry heard that the really old red court vampires could hide from daylight behind their mask and still be active in the daytime. Harry was like, "what?" but obviously some people knew/suspected this, but the council didn't appear to. Probably because the main guy who knew this kind of thing on the council got dead before it became important to distribute that kind of information. He might well have known more about the limits of the King and lords, and known more about the politics.
I've been trying to piece together what was going on the in the politics of the red court ever since Changes and who might have been infected/what their plan was and failing to really be sure. It sure seemed like Arianna was the one causing issues, and Bianca was her "grandchild" so it seems like she should be connected to it. But on the other hand, the King was spouting all kinds of things about Arianna not adapting to the coming change while he tried to kill Harry that really sounded like an nfected kind of person talking. Simon might have been able to know where the drive for war was coming from and known how different factions in the court could be played against each other, when the rest of the White Council didn't even know there were factions.
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I hadn't considered that. Interesting idea, and perfectly plausible, though narratively it'd be kinda awkward to explain,
Here's a question: what was there to know about the Reds that the loss of an expert was really that significant? Everyone knows their main weaknesses; faith magic repels them, sunlight unmasks them, decapitation and blood-bag-stabbin' takes them down. It seems like anything he might know that would be relevant is stuff the Fellowship would, too—locations of Red strongholds, common traits and hunting habits, stuff like that.
Not to speak ill of the fictionally dead, but I think Simon was just padding his resume, like I totally didn't do when I worked as a consultant.
I took it to mean he was the most knowledgeable about their tactics and the like. And as GK said, their OTHER assets.
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I took it to mean he was the most knowledgeable about their tactics and the like. And as GK said, their OTHER assets.
Also knowledge of any internal politics that the WC might use to weaken the RC: which LoON wanted to stick it to which other LoON, who doesn't work well with others, who never really wanted to fight in the first place, etc.
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We know there are supposed to be magic users in the different vampire courts, but likely specialized in their arts. What if Simon knew about these magics, enough to to create his own versions of the Magics? There is a reason why those seven courts have a seat at the accords.
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We know there are supposed to be magic users in the different vampire courts, but likely specialized in their arts. What if Simon knew about these magics, enough to to create his own versions of the Magics? There is a reason why those seven courts have a seat at the accords.
Are they? I mean the Red assumed that since they were at war with the Wouncil, that the Whites were too. Now we know they didn't get much support from the Whites, but ... I wonder if it's the Vampire nation that has a seat, rather than each court.
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Pretty sure it's each court. I don't think the Jade Court, for instance, would want to be lumped in and represented by the other unrelated courts.
The Black Court (if they have a seat) sure as hell doesn't want to be represented by the Whites.
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Pretty sure it's each court. I don't think the Jade Court, for instance, would want to be lumped in and represented by the other unrelated courts.
The Black Court (if they have a seat) sure as hell doesn't want to be represented by the Whites.
I'm just not sure. I could totally see the Jade court not caring in the least who "represented" them.
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I'm just not sure. I could totally see the Jade court not caring in the least who "represented" them.
That's like saying that Japan wouldn't care if China represented them at the UN.
If you're a part of an international treaty or agreement that will bind you by law, you absolutely will care who represents you and your interests.
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That's like saying that Japan wouldn't care if China represented them at the UN.
If you're a part of an international treaty or agreement that will bind you by law, you absolutely will care who represents you and your interests.
No, I'm thinking more along the lines of Kansas not caring who the US sends to the UN.
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No, I'm thinking more along the lines of Kansas not caring who the US sends to the UN.
The Jade Court is not the same nation as the Red Court. They're not all just one big happy vampire family. They're each distinct nations with distinct traits and distinct goals. The Jade Court is almost completely isolationist. You really think they'd want the expansionist Red Court speaking for them? Binding them into actions that they do not want to take?
Any supernatural nation would care who represents them. The Accords are a big, binding deal.
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The Jade Court is not the same nation as the Red Court. They're not all just one big happy vampire family. They're each distinct nations with distinct traits and distinct goals. The Jade Court is almost completely isolationist. You really think they'd want the expansionist Red Court speaking for them? Binding them into actions that they do not want to take?
Any supernatural nation would care who represents them. The Accords are a big, binding deal.
That's kind of my whole point. We don't know how they are separated/represented under the Accords.
Based on Ortega's actions regarding the dual, his actions could be interpreted as believing they were all one vampire nation.
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That's kind of my whole point. We don't know how they are separated/represented under the Accords.
Based on Ortega's actions regarding the dual, his actions could be interpreted as believing they were all one vampire nation.
We know that all of the vampire courts are different types of vampires with different hierarchies, different territories and different --
sometimes mutually exclusive -- goals.
We know that the White Court and the Black Court hate each other.
We know that when the Red Court went to war, the White Court did not and in fact acted as a neutral party trying to get a ceasefire.
We know that the Jade Court is very invested in not being involved, while the other vampire courts are very invested in being involved.
We know enough to indicate that the Red, White and Black Courts are not all one nation under the Accords. Why on Earth would the Jade Court -- which has shown no affiliation to any of the Courts and is, again, almost totally isolationist -- let the Red Court make decisions for it?
It's basic common sense that you do not have someone with different interests and goals from you talking in your place. It would be very stupid of the Jade Court to just not care who's speaking for them in a binding treaty.
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It might be the case where the White and Red courts have historically been allies or at least more inclined to work with one another than with other nations, but that doesn't mean they're considered the same nation. No more than the US and the UK are the same nation because they were allies in NATO.
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It might be the case where the White and Red courts have historically been allies or at least more inclined to work with one another than with other nations, but that doesn't mean they're considered the same nation. No more than the US and the UK are the same nation because they were allies in NATO.
We're talking apples and oranges here. My point is that we don't know. Hopefully PT will clear some of it up.
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There is likely an expert for every accords member due to its importance. For some reason Simon was expert for seven, that represents a huge responsibility.
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to me I am not a fan of Simon being Cowl.
for the OP though I did give it a thought and to me here is a good idea, similar to what has been said that he gets room to act.
what if it wasn't just him that left. what if it was a faked mass exodus. what if Simon was body switched by Cowl awhile ways back. what if he was more like kemmler than the other disciples. instead of focusing on one sphere, he was an all around neco like Kemmler. using that position he helped embed Peabody. influencing the Brute Squad. I mean Brute Squad really does say pushing the edge of Laws to me lol. the war was starting and the Black Wizards needed room to prep for it. two fold effect. hurts moral of the Council and giving space to freely act for those that left.