Dear SerScot
Let me make a suggestion. You cannot logically prove ‘Harry is a time traveler’ but disproving ‘Mab fixed it.’ Any more than you can prove ‘there is a silver teapot in solar orbit’ by disproving ‘the existence of invisible pink unicorns.’ The two are separate, standalone ideas, and you can only prove an idea by coming up with evidence for it and testing it.
Ms. Duck.
I'm applying Occam's razor. Harry fixing Little Chicago is the simpler explaination. Here's why I believe that it is simpler: Mr. Butcher says Harry will break all of the laws of magic. There is speculation (Bob, Harry, and the Gatekeeper) about time travel at the start of PG. Harry knows about the flaw in little Chicago and has the highest motivation foe seeing it repaired (he doesn't want to die). Further, Harry has the highest chance of getting into thw apartment and fixing the problem without being noticed by anyone because it is his apartment. He knows the wards, he has a key, and no one would be surprised to see him enter or leave.
I sincerely believe it was Harry. Were others (perhaps Mab) involved giving rise to the "evidence" you could cite? Perhaps. But as other's have pointed out faries never do favors without favors in return. Harry was already in Mab's debt. She, based on Harry's conversation with Lea in GS, can't help Harry withou Harry incurring greater debt. To our knowledge that hasn't happened.
Harry fixed Little Chicago, not Mab.
Elegast,
Lea's charge is to defend Harry from spiritual attack, in other words, attacks from the Never-never. Little Chicago is a manifestation of mortal magic in the real world. It doesn't fall under what Maggie Sr. Paid for and any new action would have incurred new debt for Harry. Therefore, I believe my crticism of the Mab theory stands.
TCF,
If that's the case why didn't Mab take out the heirs of Kemmler? Why not take direct action as the Mab theory proponents suggest she did with Little Chicago?
TCF,
Harry Could have survived Little Chicago too. Perhaps he would have seen the flaw and refrained from using it, or seen the flaw and fixed it before using it? There were no guarantee's with Kemmelerites either.
Paladino,
Harry already knows that someone fixed Little Chicago. Once he gets the opportunity to time travel perhaps he puts two and two together and heads over to his place?
Ms. Duck,
Here's the thing with the two kids. Pre Changes, Ghost Story I'd agree that Harry would never let those two kids die if he could stop it. What if, Harry discovers later than there was some important reason those two kids die or that if he prevents their deaths something else even worse would happen. C and GS were Harry learning and then seeing what Blowback is. They are forcing him to start looking longer term at the consequences of his actions, no matter how good intended they are.
[Spoilers for Anathem ](click to show/hide)
At the end of the Book Erasmus asks Fraa Lodeger if there is any way Orolo could be brought back after learning of the Polycosmic time bending and world track crossing powers of the Incantors and Rhetors. Then Erasmus answers his own question, the peace that was being signed was incompatable with his friend and Mentor being alive. It could be done but the cost was too high despite Orolo's death.
Perhaps the situation at Splattercon!!! is similar. Harry will want those kids to be alive but recognize that, for some reason we don't know yet, if they are alive things will be much, much worse for everyone else.
I think that is a big theme for the Dresden Files as a whole. That you can't save everyone. That hard choices are part of life and they cannot be avoided without great cost.
Lea's charge is to defend Harry from spiritual attack, in other words, attacks from the Never-never.Do we have the exact wording of the contract between Lea and Maggie?
actually, I think it probably can, it hust risks parageddon by doing so. It also liekly takes enormous power, which is why its likely the sort of thing gods do not mortals.
but the point is acadmeic; juts by traveling to the past you inately chnage the past. there ar enow two of you; this changes things. not to mention the whole 'buttefly effect'- part of the theory for harry time tevalign seems to involve the car. so where did he get it? is it a time travelr too? or did he steal one? by dpoing so, he changed someones past. That car accident? it changes someone's past as well. any such actions risk destorying the universe; no matter how good harry is he's not a god and cannot predict every possible effect or change.
Do we have the exact wording of the contract between Lea and Maggie?
And besides Mab can do anything she wants if she feels it's her interest. Only lying, taking/giving gift and breaking oath are impossible. And honestly, deciding to save Harry was an easy call: minimal effort, great probability that he would be become WK.
he wouldn't make something this big- if im right, its affected four novels so far- and not leave clues.
Ms. Duck,
But in the discussion between Bob and Harry about Time Travel in Proven Guilty Bob's pretty clear that it is possible and you can "nudge" unimportant things to influence events. What you can't do is go in guns blazing and save everyone you want to save. That's what causes the Universe to implode. What we think we see in PG appear to be "nudges" done with great care.
Harry not being able to save those kids is exactly why I think Butcher will go that direction. It's the sort of moral quandry that Harry will agonize over.
I understand what youre saying, I just don't belive the conversation is about time travela t all; its about foresight- why gatekeepr- and in this case, I believ Mab- would do things the way they do. It's Jim's explanation for why Mab kidnaps Molly; she had to move her pieces around the board in order to change what she foresaw.
and My version tkaes the moral quandry issue and hits Harry over the head with it.
If I am correct, Mab:
-kidnapped and tortured Molly
-let thomas be tortured
-let dozens of innocents die
- set maggie jr up to be kidnapped
-set susan up to be killed
at soem point, arroudn book 19, harry will figure this out. and he will have to decide: does mab's greater good justify this? Can he forgive her? If so, can he ever forgive himself? Which hurts worse, a few random strangers or his own familly? And if he doesnt forgive Mab, and betrays her, will he beable to deal with the greate evil she foresaw without her?
there is a reason why Jim isnt doint the revael until just before the BAT- I think its because harry's decision, about Lea, his mother, and Mab, si what causes the bAT.
dramatic enough for you?
Yes. Problem: everything you say would still be true even if Harry was the one to fix LC.
Ok, so lets start a serious discussion on the theory that Harry used time-travelling to fix LC.
sweet ! go for it Knnn ! yaaaaay Knnn!
what is so important about fixing LC that harry would risk parageddon to do so?
Doens't the car hoist seem like a clue bat, based on bob's discourse, that the gatekeeper was involved?
why Harry? I can see Molly going back in tiem to save herself far more likely.
and i still think any change of time, no matter how small, by a non omniscient being is insanely risky. So Harry travels time, goes inside the aprtment, and lets mister in. What if mister was chronoligcally elsewhere at that time? hes just changed time, parageddon.
suppose harry (say ehs from 100 years in the future) sneezes, or uses the bathroom. congrats, hes just spread cold virus all oevr the place that current humans have no immunity too- instant plauge. the hwol 'butterfly' effect gets very, very very nasty when you think about it.
I've always wondered whether the logical place to fit in a time-travelling Harry story around the events of a previous book would be DB; the bit in Mort's place where the ghosts of Chicago identify six loci of necromantic activity, only some of which correlate with known plot points, reads to me like it might be set-up for there to be other more discreet Kemmlerites in town whom future-Harry's intervention is necessitated to prevent interference with the events that already happened.
I'm betting that Jim has been leaving threads that where often shrugged off by harry as being luck but where really future harry watching out for himself, as for why harry doesn't fix everything, I assume that he will have a limited number of time jumps available to him that would mean he has to put a lot of thought into where and when he goes. i'm really looking forward to it.
- As I mentioned above, I feel LC is a very likely place.
- DB and Morty is an intriguing possibility.
- Those missing minutes at the end of Changes might be an option.
Any others?
What we think we see in PG appear to be "nudges" done with great care.
2) As such, the only thing you can actually accomplish with time travel is something that already happened. If you kill someone in the past, then historically (your timeline), he must have been killed by you as well.
First, <Watson Hat> Harry (or anyone else for that matter) going back in time for the purpose of preventing Harry from being injured is not nudging, it is direct action that changes the past.
Second, <Doyle Hat> a story written for the exclusive purpose of explaining something in a prior book is lame. The explanation of what happened in the past book has to be relevant to the successful conclusion of the current book. Thus, no future book is going to tell the story of Harry going back in time to save himself, solely for the purpose of explaining the events of a past book.
There is a solution to both of these problems, fixing LC cannot be the purpose of any future time travel, it has to be something that happens incidental to the true goal of the time travel.
Now, here's my problem <Doyle Hat> with the above story solution: It's boring. JB could write a compelling story about Harry going back in time to use LC to accomplish future task "x" and completely freaking the crap out of Thomas, but throwing in - I also saved my own life - is boring and parallel to a major storyline in the Harrry Potter books.
That argument is completely circular. How do we know future Harry can fix LC - because he already did. How do we know future Harry can't go back in time and make Molly his apprentice - because we already know he didn't. If LC was already fixed in the past, then there is no need for future Harry to time travel to fix it.
Will we ever see Dresden forced into a situation where he may have to jump through time to do something?
That would require him breaking one of the laws of magic, and it's not as though I have seven books outlined, one for each law, or anything. We may, probably, possibly some see such as thing at some point.
NO, the exact details about the lea/maggie deal will be revealed around book 19, according to the schedule. There is alsot he issue of why Lea accepted such a deal, what exactly she feels about harry and thomas, and what ehr relationship with maggie was.
I believe she loved maggie, and considers harry and thomas as 'her' kids. there is some evidence for this:
-Lea often refers tot hem as her children, not her god children
-she has gone way beyond what a fariy godmother would be expected to do
- her kiss on thomas scarred him permantly
-the way she rolls her eyes at Eb
- the leandaisdhe of legend was a lover/ dark muse, who would take blood from her loevr sin return for granting them genius
as to the 'harry fixed it' I feel you need some kind of evidence. One thing that is clear, to me, is that Jim loves leaving clues. he wouldn't make something this big- if im right, its affected four novels so far- and not leave clues.
annother poster once told me they had asked JIm who did it, and Jim said ' the clues are out there, you figure it out.' I have looked for that comment, but its not in the offical woj yet, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt.
But still, i believe the truth is out there. ;D
You have now convinced me that the big death at the end of the casefiles that sets Harry off will be Leah. If he learns why she's watched out for him, looks upon him as a second mother, only to lose her... that could be it. I've read your theories that it'll be Mab, and I know some have speculated it would be Thomas or Eb because they're family, or Murphy due to their bonds. But losing a second mother figure might just do it.
Hmm, interesting.
I only put Mab as the victim, as I feel thats what the black court is most afraid of.. and when she bites it, they go to war.
must consider...
Yeah, I'm seeing it as a self-sacrifice thing. Totally shocking Harry, who always thought her protection was self-interest, as opposed to genuine concern for him. And then she lays down her immortal life to protect him? Ooh-boy.
I don't know. I like the Fae sort of removed from us. They look like us, but they are not us. I'll steal Pat Rothfuss's analogy. It's like Alcohol and Water. They look the same but are very, very, different.
TCF,
That makes them too much like us. It's not that they don't love, it's that love means something very different for them than it does for us.
TCF,
I don't want to turn Lea into sqwishy lovey mother figure. She needs to remain "Scary Death Sidhe Lady". To much affection for Harry or Thomas would spoil that, in my opinion.
I think he has. in SK, Lea says "I care for you, my son" and harry replies " but you tried to turn me into a dog" and Lea answers " of course. you would be safe and happy then."
Which seems to me to pretty clearly prove that what "cares for" means to Lea is not at all what it would for a human.
well i see it a bit different. My sister got into some drug problems as a teen, and my father had to have her hospitlaized to save her life. She did not want to go, and was very angray at him for that, but eventually forgave him.
so If Lea foresaw harry getting killed, and knew there was no way to atlk him out of his self destructive behavior, i can see as a sidhe parent putting him in the dog pound for a while, until the danger is past.
I am not at all intending to argue with that mode of thing sometimes being a necessary thing to do, or a thing people can do coming from good intentions, and I am sorry if I suggested otherwise.
It's the apparent lack of any intent on Lea's part to turn him back again that I am finding hard to see as caring in a humanly recognisable sense.