Okay, I've long held the belief that nemesis cannot infect a human. Though why exactly I don't know. I personally think it has to do with the mutable nature of mankind's nature. I think Nemesis allows one to change one's nature, and since mankind already can, there really isn't any point to infection.There were hundreds, if not thousands, of Outsiders attacking Demonreach in Cold Days. They didn't just carpool in to reality.
Another bit of evidence that suggests to me that nemesis cannot infect mankind is this ....
If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?
Vitto was possessed by an Outsider, but Nemesis was not named.
There were hundreds, if not thousands, of Outsiders attacking Demonreach in Cold Days. They didn't just carpool in to reality.
We've seen exactly one Outsider summoning ritual, which utilized a death. If deaths are required, then it's no easy feat to do that on a mad scale and avoid the Council.
If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?
I didn't read it the same as you. I pictured a number of Outsiders, but more like in the dozens.Harry guesstimated more before he even saw their full numbers.
Things were swarming up out of the lake, hideous and fascinating—hundreds of them.And if I read it correctly, this was only a portion of the attack force working with one of three barges.
Because summoning requires Free Will - which is why it requires a human.Isn't one of the major dangers to the White Council the possibility that a wizard would be turned and then the Vampire Wizard would be able to open the doors to an outsider?
So you can't compel someone to do it, and a possessing spirit can't do it using a human meat suit.
You have to persuade an uncompelled/uninfected human to do it.
Isn't one of the major dangers to the White Council the possibility that a wizard would be turned and then the Vampire Wizard would be able to open the doors to an outsider?
"I thought only mortal magic could call up Outsiders," I said quietly.
Luccio said quietly, "You are correct."
There is an unspoken agreement between Wardens not to get captured alive by the Reds because once you are turned into a Red Court Vampire you lose your loyalty to the White Council (if it is just the fact that you turn in to a soulless monster or if there is some Sire-bond going on and the Red that turns you forces you to switch loyalties isn't specifically explained) and you will betray all the secrets you know.
As for magical abilities, it is also said directly that you retain them, but you get the vampiric/necromantic equivalent of it (Dresden describes the power source of Vampire magic as that similar to necromantic energies, un-life magic, where's mortal magic is based on life energy).
If before you turned you could throw a lightning bolt with mortal magic, now you can throw a lightning bolt with necrotic magic. The effect is the same but on a metaphysical level it is like changing polarities and your magic does no longer count as mortal human magic, which is why the Outsiders showing up is such a big deal because it proves there are non-turned human Wizards supporting the Reds.
Of course with what we know now, I suspect a half-vampire like Martin would count as mortal-enough, and probably there would a magician or two among the servants of the literally damned Court.
I believe that nemesis doesnt affect humans because it cant hurt them. What it does is remove all obligations from the fey. without those obligations the fey so far have gone insane. good bad or indifferent the fey only act because of their obligations to what ever group they are with. with that removed they completely loose it.
Okay, I've long held the belief that nemesis cannot infect a human. Though why exactly I don't know. I personally think it has to do with the mutable nature of mankind's nature. I think Nemesis allows one to change one's nature, and since mankind already can, there really isn't any point to infection.I agree with your general conclusion, though I think I have a slightly different direction on the Why of it. I agree that Nemesis allows a being to Change, which is redundant in the case of Mortals. But I think that is the clue: Mortal's ability to Change themselves (and reality itself) is granted by their Soul. As "part-mortals", all Fae would theoretically have once had a Soul (as changelings) or otherwise be descended from some mortal creature that had them. So Im thinking that Nemesis can Nemfect Fae because they have, for lack of a better term, an un-occupied "Soul Slot", a vestigial thing that Nemesis can co-opt for it's own control. In the case of a Mortal, said mortal would first need to adequately destroy their own soul (through a series of terrible free will Choices) before Nemesis has enough "space" to move in and start nudging (and eventually dominating) the mortal.
Another bit of evidence that suggests to me that nemesis cannot infect mankind is this ....My best guess is Tactics and Power Requirements. Per the explanation of the giant Pentacles in SmF, that kind of summoning takes proportion Power to create a Doorway big enough. So even if you have a Nemfected Mortal, there is still a hard limit on the scope of what that mortal would be capable of Summoning (they'd have to go out and find other Power Sources to drive larger Summoning). At that point, it becomes tactically more valuable to keep any and all activity (and assets) a secret; they could have each new operative start summoning what they can individually but long-term all that does is attract attention and get said assets killed.
If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?
"the the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things"
Why Azathoth? Consider the following WoJ (Dragoncon 2010)Id argue that the description there could apply to basically /any/ of the vaguely personified abstract concepts. Or, for that matter physical things like, I dunno...The Ocean?
[On magic affecting technology] "It's something that changes over time. It's a living growing force. It's not really aware, nothing like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who are using it."
**IF** Jim is hinting at the source of (mortal) magic, then this is some sort of mindless divine power. To me this sounds a little bit like:
.....
Ok, I started rambling. Nevermind, carry on.
Id argue that the description there could apply to basically /any/ of the vaguely personified abstract concepts. Or, for that matter physical things like, I dunno...The Ocean?
Well the ocean can't really be the source of mortal magic (e.g. the way TWG is the source of Michael's faith magic), so that wouldn't quite fit the WAG but in general, sure.True I suppose. Though ::tinfoil hat ON:: Water Grounds Magic, and "All Life Came from the Ocean" sooo may the Spirit of the Ocean might qualify as the Source of All Magic in the World as an extension of being the Source of Life (or arguably 1/2 along with the Sun).
But in general I just mean that the WOJ description seems a really non-specific description that would apply any significant Power/Energy/Natural Force
Oh, I don't disagree, which is why I had "IF" in all caps. Note that Jim has said elsewhere that he wanted Harry's magic to be like a plumbing/engineering (as opposed to shamanistic).That would be an interesting twist, though Im not sure how I feel about the idea that all magic, and by extension the energy of Life Itself, were to come from Outside or from anything quite that madness-inducing.
That said, IF he was hinting at a divine source, Azathoth would be my personal choice.
That would be an interesting twist, though I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that all magic, and by extension the energy of Life Itself, were to come from Outside or from anything quite that madness-inducing.
whereas Id picture the Source of Earth Magic to be a local/universal thing more specific to the actual Life present on the planet. Thoughts?
Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.
<shrug>I have no real problem with the idea of Creation bubbling out of Chaos, more that on an aesthetic level I dislike the idea of that bubbling chaos being both a)the literal and direct animating source of all Life while also b)being a conscious malevolent entity of destruction and madness and despair and all the other things that Ive culturally been taught to associate with all lovecraftian deities.
It's not an uncommon trope that when you have enough Chaos you can occasionally randomly eventually get bubbles of Order. They might even be considered "temporary" from a "billions of years" perspective.
I would suggest that it has to be at least "local" to any place potentially accessible by Harry Dresden (i.e. the NN, Heaven/Hell, MM worlds, the Moon). To me, this me makes it feel general enough that the source for magic has to be something at least a bit multi-universal.Let me back up, Sorry. I had a burried theory/assumption in that statement, so it didnt translate well.
Somewhat related, there's also this WoJ (emphasis mine):
I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in. One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders. So one possible ending for the BAT is that Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.
I have no real problem with the idea of Creation bubbling out of Chaos, more that on an aesthetic level I dislike the idea of that bubbling chaos being both a)the literal and direct animating source of all Life while also b)being a conscious malevolent entity of destruction and madness and despair and all the other things that Ive culturally been taught to associate with all lovecraftian deities.
When I say "local" I meant local to that individual universe (including it's accociated NN), meaning there might be mirror versions in other universes. This becomes an important distinction because I do not think that is true for Outsiders. There is that line from CD about how the outsider seemed not bigger, but rather /deeper/ than things like Mab, a photograph vs a sculpture, and the WOJ that Outsiders are just Outsiders and only look different depending on what universe they are trying to get in. If each universe is a single "disk" cross-section of giant a World Tree branching out in Time, then the idea is that the Outsiders are all the negative space between and around that branching tree of Creation. And by extension that, unlike universe-level creatures, there is only one HWWB4 out there, and right now he's looking at Harry's Universe.
I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in. One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders. So one possible ending for the BAT is that Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.All it has to do is be a universe where Earth is not the focal point for the Outsider's invasion. Maybe they are trying to storm through a planet in the Hyades with their own set of inhabitants rather than Humans on Earth.
All it has to do is be a universe where Earth is not the focal point for the Outsider's invasion. Maybe they are trying to storm through a planet in the Hyades with their own set of inhabitants rather than Humans on Earth.
Not quite sure what you're saying about HHWB. The way I see it, either he's a minion -- one who can only manifest in one universe, or he's more along the lines of Uriel -- sees multiple universes at once. I don't think this has been decided one way or the other.
And this thing in my head, the thing I’d named Sharkface, was like him, a Walker, a peer. It was huge, powerful, and in a way utterly different from the kinds of power I had seen before. This thing wasn’t bigger than Mab. But it was horribly, unbearably deeper than her, like a photograph of a sculpture compared to the sculpture itself. It had power at its command that was beyond anything I had seen, beyond measure, beyond comprehension—just plain beyond.
Good point. The sculpture vs picture metaphor Harry uses very much suggests your reading (both for the Walkers and Mab).I imagine that the Outsiders are the real Adversary that beings like Uriel have to face off against, and that just like the forces of the Inside, they come in varying levels of Power and existence. I wouldnt discount the possibility that the forces on the outside of the Outer Gates are (for lack of a better phrase) the same sort of 2D creature as the Fae they are fighting them, and that Outsiders of that fodder level are creatures being grown/captured from universes where the Outsider have more (or total) sway, presumably like the Sleepers wanted when they came here. Even if the ultimate goal is the complete dissolution of the Multiverse, it seems their MO to take pre-existing Insiders and corrupt them for their purposes. Actually, that description matches the Sidhe equally well.
I guess I always felt the Mab's defense of the Gates was against similarly-weighted opponents. At the very least, this vastly increases the amount of "computing power" the Outsiders potentially have, even if they are constrained by amount of power they can project onto our "flat" 3d world.
I imagine that the Outsiders are the real Adversary that beings like Uriel have to face off against,
Thing is, I don't think we've ever see any angelic forces fighting directly against the Outsiders. I mean (as far as I remember), you've got Michael at the end of PG, Nicodemus' "blinking" when he hears about Hellfire at AT (and some of the stuff he says in SG) and (if you buy into the theory) Rafael-Demonreach.I picture it a little less of a literal battle at that level, though to be clear I am saying that the Outer Gates are simply one of several Fronts in the war, and that Angels (or at least those of Archangel level) are fighting it on a much different level than the much lower, more literal, and most importantly more /local/ battle. A great analogy I once heard (couldnt say were) is that their battle is more like a Chess board: just because either side could "flip the table" and end the game at any time doesnt negate the value or importance of them both sitting down and attempting to Win The Game.
Now granted the whole Outsider threat was only explicitly stated in the last few books so its not impossible that we haven't seen the whole picture, but given that a whole angel is given the sole job to protect the possibly dying Forthill, you'd think Harry would have run across a few hints of their existence at the continual war at the Gates.
I guess it I just haven't have gotten "that vibe" so far, though of course it might be Harry's misunderstanding of the situation.
Also, fwiw, I have a strong suspicion that Mab's "Executioner" mode is directly related to Angels; since she almost perfectly resembles the Angel of Death we saw in GS, it makes me think that once upon a time, an Angel of Death might have met its end on the Stone Table.
That might just be because of human (or Harry) perception.It's a power of Death, so Id say it would naturally go to Winter. If it happened, it either predates (or coincides) with the events precipitating the Seasonal Court split, or else the Summer side got another angelic Power-up, something on the Life end of the Spectrum.
I don't think I like the idea of sacrificing an Angel on the Stone Table; it doesn't quite fit. As Bob says "different wavelengths". And from a technical point of view, how would you give equal power to both sides? Remember that the Queen in charge of the Table at the time gets the power.
It's a power of Death, so Id say it would naturally go to Winter. If it happened, it either predates (or coincides) with the events precipitating the Seasonal Court split, or else the Summer side got another angelic Power-up, something on the Life end of the Spectrum.
As far as Wavelengths, I dont see why the Stone Table would be bound to the same limitations as a Spirit of Intellect. It's not that Faith and Magic are incomparable, it's that Faith and Logic are incompatible, while most (but not all) of magic can be reasonably understood by Logic and Reason alone, so Bob has personally specialized in that aspect.
Why doesn't Mother winter take to the field against the outsiders? If she wields the power of Death, wouldn't that be a great boon on our side of the conflict?Hmm, i have several ways to answer that... sooo, in decreasing order of certainty:
Perhaps Nemesis reactivates portions of the soul of those Fae that had one (Maeve) and takes complete control of those that never had one (cat sith). Or prior existence of a soul limits the level of influence that Nemesis has over the infected.What makes you think Cat Sith never had a soul?
What makes you think Cat Sith never had a soul?Because the mortal side of Cat Sith clearly came from mortal Cats, and Cats are, without exception, Soulless little bastards. 8)
Somewhat related, there's also this WoJ (emphasis mine):...
I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in. One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders. So one possible ending for the BAT is that Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.
Sure, but you'd still have to explain why there are no mortals on that Earth summoning Outsiders.
Thing is, I don't think we've ever see any angelic forces fighting directly against the Outsiders. I mean (as far as I remember), you've got Michael at the end of PG, Nicodemus' "blinking" when he hears about Hellfire at AT (and some of the stuff he says in SG) and (if you buy into the theory) Rafael-Demonreach.
Now granted the whole Outsider threat was only explicitly stated in the last few books so its not impossible that we haven't seen the whole picture, but given that a whole angel is given the sole job to protect the possibly dying Forthill, you'd think Harry would have run across a few hints of their existence at the continual war at the Gates.
I guess it I just haven't have gotten "that vibe" so far, though of course it might be Harry's misunderstanding of the situation.