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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: vultur on June 30, 2018, 04:54:52 AM
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I noticed something re-reading Changes. Odin demonstrates the "crushing will" power on Harry, and tells Harry that "in the Lords of Outer Night, even the remnants of that power are more than you can face as you are". With the very strong implication that Harry needs to get an external power boost to resist the LoON's will.
But, in the actual confrontation, Harry's Winter Knight powers don't really seem to be involved in resisting the will of the Red King and LoON. In the first confrontation, after Harry kills Arianna, it's Bob's spiritual defense and then Murphy drawing the Sword (or maybe the archangel's pronouncement that happens then). And in the second confrontation at the very end, Harry is starting to push back - but what actually frees him is Lea killing a couple of them and distracting the others.
Also, Odin strongly hints that he can't help Harry - he says that he's no longer strong enough, and that this has to be handled by mortals. But then he shows up and fights anyway.
I mean, Harry ends up needing the Winter Knight Mantle anyway to fix his broken back. But Odin's big on foresight... if Odin had instead told Harry that Bob and the Swords could protect him from the Lords of Outer Night's will, would events have played out differently? Maybe Harry wouldn't have ended up breaking his back...
But, why does Odin want Harry to be Winter Knight? He's tied to Winter as Kringle, but that doesn't seem like enough by itself.
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Odin is a master strategist. He can see the pieces arranging themselves on the chess board, and he's acting accordingly.
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Odin is a master strategist. He can see the pieces arranging themselves on the chess board, and he's acting accordingly.
Oh, I agree. But acting to achieve what goal? Why does he push Harry in that direction?
With the level of foresight he presumably has, he could have steered Harry in a direction that wouldn't have had him get his back broken, in which case he likely wouldn't have absolutely needed the Winter Knight's Mantle.
And what about Molly? Did Odin already expect her to be Winter Lady? I'm thinking not, as Mab herself apparently didn't see it coming, but it is suspicious. If his only stake in it was to get the Red Court destroyed, he could have told Harry that taking Molly to Chichen Itza was a really bad idea.
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In a perverse way I think Odin was testing Harry, not only testing but nudging him as well into the position they need him to be in in the coming ACT. Think about it, mortal kids are murdered all of the time in the world and Odin doesn't do much about it. It went on even when he supposedly had more power. So I don't think it is about lack of power on Odin's part, it is just he never has concerned himself all that much in such matters. However testing a star child who may be the leader and lynch pin in the coming war would be. The Powers agree I think, that Harry needs to be Winter Knight for the best future outcome.. Harry up until that point absolutely refuses to become Knight.. So Odin claims he cannot help, but "suggests"... Still not an option as far as Harry is concerned, it is also a test because Harry's decision making under such pressure can and will be critical. Then he breaks his back, calls on Uriel, who happens to be working with Odin on deep background, who also says he cannot help Harry but suggests he listen to Odin at the same time assuring him if he does what he has to do out of love, his soul has a chance of not being lost. Harry decides of the least worst of really no realistic options for himself. They got him where they want him and in the end they all pitch in so that the battle is won..
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It could be that Odin lost a good deal of power to move to the mortal realm. He probably couldn't take on the LOONs directly anymore, they'd gang up on him and kill him. But he could show up and fight their minions.
Or, it could also be that the White Court aren't the only ones who like to use cat's paws.
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It could be that Odin lost a good deal of power to move to the mortal realm. He probably couldn't take on the LOONs directly anymore, they'd gang up on him and kill him. But he could show up and fight their minions.
Or, it could also be that the White Court aren't the only ones who like to use cat's paws.
I wonder if faith has anything to do with his power? The old gods may still exist but most people do not believe in them anymore.. The power is only as good as the power of people's faith in them. Odin has tried to adjust with the times and his form of power has evolved, but it is nothing like it used to be.
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Well, Odin's stake in things is all about Ragnarok. So, I presume the ultimate Ragnarok would be Outsider winning the Universe. His forte is foresight to prevent that from happening. Hmm, it makes me wonder what it would be like if Nemesis got a hold of Odin.
How would Harry best Nemesis Odin? Maybe OdinRemnant would leave just a bit of an opening for Harry to take advantage in a foresight contest against himself.
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I noticed something re-reading Changes. Odin demonstrates the "crushing will" power on Harry, and tells Harry that "in the Lords of Outer Night, even the remnants of that power are more than you can face as you are". With the very strong implication that Harry needs to get an external power boost to resist the LoON's will.
But, in the actual confrontation, Harry's Winter Knight powers don't really seem to be involved in resisting the will of the Red King and LoON. In the first confrontation, after Harry kills Arianna, it's Bob's spiritual defense and then Murphy drawing the Sword (or maybe the archangel's pronouncement that happens then). And in the second confrontation at the very end, Harry is starting to push back - but what actually frees him is Lea killing a couple of them and distracting the others.
Also, Odin strongly hints that he can't help Harry - he says that he's no longer strong enough, and that this has to be handled by mortals. But then he shows up and fights anyway.
I mean, Harry ends up needing the Winter Knight Mantle anyway to fix his broken back. But Odin's big on foresight... if Odin had instead told Harry that Bob and the Swords could protect him from the Lords of Outer Night's will, would events have played out differently? Maybe Harry wouldn't have ended up breaking his back...
But, why does Odin want Harry to be Winter Knight? He's tied to Winter as Kringle, but that doesn't seem like enough by itself.
Well, for one thing, saying that the winter mantle does not help against will attack is untrue. Against Odin, a single godly entity, Harry before the mantle can't even stand up. He lay there like a upside down turtle. With the mantle, against the entire Loa, Harry could still stand, though he can't move. The difference is quite big.
The resisttance granted by the mantle allow Harry to give a fight when he finally face off with the red king in the sacrificial chamber. Otherwise, Harry won't even stand a chance.
As for Odin making an appearance during the battle at CY despite saying that he could not help. Well, Harry ask for overt help like sending an army of einghenjars and Valkyrie. I am certain that Odin is sying the truth when he said he can't grant that kind of help. Also, we don't know what kind of rules bound immortal beings during conflict. If we pay attention, the book never actually show Odin participating in a fight. Odin open a gateway and send a bunch of grey council wizards. he is present sure, but I don't remember the book mentioning Odin actually attacking personally. So in a way, Odin indeed can't help, not directly. He can assist however. Besides, even if Odin indeed lie to Harry about not helping, it is an understandable strategy. If Harry know that Odin would come help, his attitude might change and that in turn may result in the red court discovering something. Harry going to see Odin mostly does not escape the RC intelligence network.
As for Odin wanting Harry to become winter knight. Well, in hindsight the reason should be clear. Assuming that Odin has foresight, and with him being Kringle and all, he of all people must have known about Maeve, and how the winter court are in trouble. Red court cooperating with outsiders, black council and so on. Pushing Harry to become the winter knight is, in hindsight, something Odin would do. It seems to work out splendidly. If Harry is not the winter knight, the prison of demonreach probably would have been breached. In his place, with all his knowledge and foresight, he has all the reason to push Harry to become the winter knight.
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But, why does Odin want Harry to be Winter Knight? He's tied to Winter as Kringle, but that doesn't seem like enough by itself.
There are those in the White Council who want to kill Harry because they think he's so dangerous (Warden, Paranet, possible warlock). Per woj one of the things that have stopped them is because Harry is the Winter Knight, and they don't want to have to answer to Mab. So Odin may have seen that Harry's life was in danger from the Council, and he helped move Harry into a position that would grant him a form of protection.
He also probably knew that one day Harry might want to remove the Mantle without dying. Odin may have a way and now is in a position to offer Harry a way out if he grants him a favor.
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There are those in the White Council who want to kill Harry because they think he's so dangerous (Warden, Paranet, possible warlock). Per woj one of the things that have stopped them is because Harry is the Winter Knight, and they don't want to have to answer to Mab. So Odin may have seen that Harry's life was in danger from the Council, and he helped move Harry into a position that would grant him a form of protection.
He also probably knew that one day Harry might want to remove the Mantle without dying. Odin may have a way and now is in a position to offer Harry a way out if he grants him a favor.
What stopped them before he became Winter Knight? That didn't happen until Changes.
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Per woj one of the things that have stopped them is because Harry is the Winter Knight, and they don't want to have to answer to Mab.
Yeah, I'm reminded of the WOJL. I also got the impression that there were some wizards at play against Mab, or at least against her interests. They lost. And, they don't want to antagonize her anymore by going after Harry. Like, Right now, for now. I think they feel 'safe' as long as they don't cross her more.
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What stopped them before he became Winter Knight? That didn't happen until Changes.
Just repeating Jim's words.
Them being worried about Dresden, and considering getting rid of him isn't the same as carrying it out. Now it's too late.
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It could be that Odin lost a good deal of power to move to the mortal realm. He probably couldn't take on the LOONs directly anymore, they'd gang up on him and kill him. But he could show up and fight their minions.
but he doesn't seem to have lost any of his knowledge and hes the one who taught OG merlin the demon reach creation level magic wasn't he?
And he seems to have retained the king of the gods level information network through his raven things and other spies
So he cant stand toe to toe against them but he could cheat so bad in fights he would make Dresden's tricks seem like a 2 year old. I would guess that he might not be that far from harry's demonreach inteliectus but everywhere when you combine all that and extra mantles and the senior council level powerups he probably has stashed away after doing his thing with freedom to act for a long time.
Now to the main thing. Ive wanted to mention this for a while now.
If you think it through being the winter knight is great for Dresden.
Everyone gets way to hung up on Mab being unlikeable and ignores the big picture.
Think back through every single thing Mab has had Dresden do and they're all things he would have wanted to do anyway but couldn't have pulled it off on his own.
Lets see Mab ordered him to stop a Faye war she couldn't stop on her own that would have at least sent civilization back to the stone age. um yeah how dare she.
Some very convoluted plot which resulted in molly not being executed and a major blow against the red vampires. once again how dare she.
She gives him the magic muscle and even coordinates allies for him to completely destroy the red court and save himself, blackstalf,maggie, maybe the Wraiths.
Orders him to help in a plot that ultimately stopped marcone or the archive from becoming a denarian.
gets him to stop the outsiders from destroying the universe, and gets rid of 2 n-fected high positions and the summer lady whos too stupid to be a leader during the Apocalypse.
gets him to stop the denarians from getting a massive power up and gets him the massive power up and a few mill in diamonds.
has the leanshe kill thousands of things that try to come through the never never to kill him, Also has her watch over him very closely since he was born. Has the leanshe protect then hand over all of the knowledge of the ways from Maggie SR.
( the leanshe is COMPLETELY loyal remember. Her actions are supported by Mab.
Mab seems to be preparing to lead earth through apocalyptic level dangers and Dresden is becoming her main problem solver.
Why wouldn't Odin push harry towards that?
Harry always rushes at things with no thoughts to the danger.
The winter court has always been watching and insuring its possible for him to win his various fights.
Also in case you missed it Mab seemed to want or at least be fine with a romantic relationship between Dresden and her daughter whom she was grooming for power.with Molly as the backup so no shes not going to kill dresden for something minor.
She has a crazy amount invested in him by now.
It seems from my point of view that Mab has been viciously protective of Dresden even too the point of ignoring all her duties and risking all out war with summer to keep Dresden's body alive.
which means keeping Dresden alive was more important to her than losing 6 -9 of time when she has a LOT on her plate.
Yes she acts very mean to him. That is necessity to shape him into someone who will be able to survive what she knows is coming.
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Odin may have a way and now is in a position to offer Harry a way out if he grants him a favor.
Maybe but,
wild guess here. Could Mab molly or mother winter just release him from service. any tricks Odin knows one of them should also know.
1 Mab needs Dresden for whats to come.
2 His lack of loyalty is causing her big problems.
3 sometime in the next 4 books he will realise that the world could very well end before Maggie is old enough for college.
4 harry could just go to Mab and offer her complete loyalty for the duration of the whatever it is and in return he keeps his soul and gets to retire back to plain wizardness if they all survive.
Mab is very practical about these things ya know.
and she doesn't seem to be a fan of having strong knights around long term anyway.
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he could have told Harry that taking Molly to Chichen Itza was a really bad idea.
Was it a bad idea to someone with foresight?
Didn't that lead to a chain of events which Molly went from a relative weakling to a major power and who knows where she will end up?
She was going to keep jumping into every fight and Dresden didn't train her well enough for that. Now she can survive them and her dieing wont turn Dresden to the dark side of the force.
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Just repeating Jim's words.
Them being worried about Dresden, and considering getting rid of him isn't the same as carrying it out. Now it's too late.
All I am saying is he didn't become Winter Knight until Changes. Mab did name him emissary in
Summer Knight, but they were worried and wanted to get rid of them before that.. Perhaps they fear because Lea is his godmother? Or there is more to it and neither Harry nor us know it yet.
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Well, Harry didn't become Warden of Demonreach until Turn Coat, and that's what moved him from being a potential local-scale threat to a potential world-scale threat.
Early on, if Harry had gone full Dark Side, he'd have been a dangerous and powerful warlock but not as powerful as, say, Grevane or Corpsetaker. And early on, he was being watched closely enough that Morgan would have had a chance to take him down before he could do large-scale damage. So it wasn't worth angering Eb to try to kill him (directly; Morgan did try to goad him into a fight in SK).
But being Warden of Demonreach elevates him to a potential worse-than-Kemmler threat. If Harry wanted to, there's a pretty good chance he could destroy the entire White Council (extract a binding oath from some Mab-level entity to do it in exchange for being released).
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Well, Harry didn't become Warden of Demonreach until Turn Coat, and that's what moved him from being a potential local-scale threat to a potential world-scale threat.
Early on, if Harry had gone full Dark Side, he'd have been a dangerous and powerful warlock but not as powerful as, say, Grevane or Corpsetaker. And early on, he was being watched closely enough that Morgan would have had a chance to take him down before he could do large-scale damage. So it wasn't worth angering Eb to try to kill him (directly; Morgan did try to goad him into a fight in SK).
But being Warden of Demonreach elevates him to a potential worse-than-Kemmler threat. If Harry wanted to, there's a pretty good chance he could destroy the entire White Council (extract a binding oath from some Mab-level entity to do it in exchange for being released).
exactly. Demonreach was the turning point and shortly afterwards he became Winter Knight.
Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity? If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.
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Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity? If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.
Nah, it's a damn strong Ley Line but by no means the strongest in the world, and most stronghold including Edinburgh and Chitzen Itza are situated on whole nexi of ley lines. While a strong tactical resource, any one ley line is not unique enough in itself to challenge the world order. Now, a pile of entities who's ambient presence alone leaks a ley line, that's a much stronger and rarer resource
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Nah, it's a damn strong Ley Line but by no means the strongest in the world, and most stronghold including Edinburgh and Chitzen Itza are situated on whole nexi of ley lines. While a strong tactical resource, any one ley line is not unique enough in itself to challenge the world order. Now, a pile of entities who's ambient presence alone leaks a ley line, that's a much stronger and rarer resource
Well I called it a ley line but is that what it actually is? Gatekeeper warned Harry about it. I suspect it something else.... Something like a drainage line that bleeds the prisoners power out somewhere else to keep them from escaping. If Harry tapped into it I suspect he'd be tapping into the power of dark gods, and have their power at his disposal.
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Well I called it a ley line but is that what it actually is? Gatekeeper warned Harry about it. I suspect it something else.... Something like a drainage line that bleeds the prisoners power out somewhere else to keep them from escaping. If Harry tapped into it I suspect he'd be tapping into the power of dark gods, and have their power at his disposal.
He'd be tapping into the magical equivalent of the /body heat/ of dark gods. Not the same thing as actually tapping or controlling their real Power. But yes, it is still just a ley line, the same one that Nic and all his magic-using nickleheads were tapping into during SmF without getting world-ending levels of power.
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He'd be tapping into the magical equivalent of the /body heat/ of dark gods. Not the same thing as actually tapping or controlling their real Power. But yes, it is still just a ley line, the same one that Nic and all his magic-using nickleheads were tapping into during SmF without getting world-ending levels of power.
Oh ok. Of course they didn't stake claim to the Island and might not have full access to said Ley Line! haha
(https://media.giphy.com/media/dF73dMfhaFwiI/giphy.gif)
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Hey do you think that's how some of them may have become Nemfected or something similar? Why Nicodemus suspects they are working with the other side? They became vulnerable when they tapped into the Ley Line?
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exactly. Demonreach was the turning point and shortly afterwards he became Winter Knight.
Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity? If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.
Somehow I doubt that Alfred would allow that. One reason Harry was successful doing the ritual the lead to him unwittingly into becoming Warden of the island in my opinion is the soul fire he added to his blood.. On the island Mab has to mind her p's and q's we saw that from her reaction at the end of Cold Days when Harry threatened to hand her over to Alfred when she threatened him.. When she came to get him in Skin Game she was careful to stay on the dock. This is a max prison for monsters, demons and even gods, whatever the power is, Harry has access to it.. However that doesn't follow that he has access off the island, but unleashing that power as we learn in Cold Days could take out the island and a goodly chunk of the Midwest with it..
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Hey do you think that's how some of them may have become Nemfected or something similar? Why Nicodemus suspects they are working with the other side? They became vulnerable when they tapped into the Ley Line?
No -- they only do the Demonreach thing at the end of SmF, and one of them was working with the Black Council/Circle/Whatever for the attack on Arctis Tor in PG. (Unless time travel is involved, of course...)
I also don't think Demonreach has anything specifically to do with Outsiders or Nemesis. I think that the plan in CD was just to use it as a means to cause destruction and chaos.
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exactly. Demonreach was the turning point and shortly afterwards he became Winter Knight.
Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity? If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.
Nah, there's no way that it's THAT powerful. IIRC Luccio in SmF says that it's 1 of 4 major ley line sites in the area, one of the others being the Field Museum ley line which Harry used to reanimate Sue the T-Rex. The prisoners are really powerful, but the "body heat" ley line itself seems to be strong but not uniquely strong.
And even if it were, he only would have that power while on the island, which really limits what he could accomplish with it. At most, he could use thaumaturgy to explode people's hearts from a distance if he had hair/blood/etc... but Harry could do that anyway without Demonreach.
What makes the Warden really terrifying is the ability to release the prisoners (and use that ability as a bargaining chip to extract oaths from them first).
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Nah, there's no way that it's THAT powerful. IIRC Luccio in SmF says that it's 1 of 4 major ley line sites in the area, one of the others being the Field Museum ley line which Harry used to reanimate Sue the T-Rex. The prisoners are really powerful, but the "body heat" ley line itself seems to be strong but not uniquely strong.
And even if it were, he only would have that power while on the island, which really limits what he could accomplish with it. At most, he could use thaumaturgy to explode people's hearts from a distance if he had hair/blood/etc... but Harry could do that anyway without Demonreach.
What makes the Warden really terrifying is the ability to release the prisoners (and use that ability as a bargaining chip to extract oaths from them first).
Uniquely evil/corruptive perhaps?
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Oh ok. Of course they didn't stake claim to the Island and might not have full access to said Ley Line! haha
Anyone touching the Island can access the Ley Line, be it a Denarian or Sharkface. The Power boost of Claiming a Sanctum is a separate thing that is channeled though the spirit in question (Alfred in DR's case), and is something that Harry has been tapping ever since (at least he did a boatload of it during TC) where by contrast he'd very specifcally never tapped that Ley Line because he thinks it would change him in dark ways. He's tapped the one at the Field Museum and at least one of the ones at CI, but those werent as qualitatively "Dark" of energy
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Anyone touching the Island can access the Ley Line, be it a Denarian or Sharkface. The Power boost of Claiming a Sanctum is a separate thing that is channeled though the spirit in question (Alfred in DR's case), and is something that Harry has been tapping ever since (at least he did a boatload of it during TC) where by contrast he'd very specifcally never tapped that Ley Line because he thinks it would change him in dark ways. He's tapped the one at the Field Museum and at least one of the ones at CI, but those werent as qualitatively "Dark" of energy
I believe what Rashid said was he wasn't ready to handle doing such a thing... page 299 Turn Co
"First," he said,"do not tap into the power of this place's well. You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."
He could have meant it would turn him to the dark, but he didn't say that.. He only said that it would alter him, he may have meant simply that if he messed with it before he was ready he might be turned into a drooling idiot..
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Agreed. It's hard to say how it might alter him.
Yeah, maybe it'll turn him dark because "you are what you eat" and he'd get warped by all the negative vibes.
Or maybe he just doesn't have the skill and control to handle that much power without getting injured, physically or psychologically.
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Or maybe he just doesn't have the skill and control to handle that much power without getting injured, physically or psychologically.
Quite possibly - in Changes, after Harry uses the big ley-line powered gravity spell to kill a ton of blood-crazed Rampires, he tries to 'reach out with his will' to it again and gets freaky sensory feedback and mental pain. The Demonreach ley line might have similar effects amped up to a level that would leave lasting damage.
And the Gatekeeper says he's "years away" from being able to do it safely, which implies that it is possible - if it essentially shoved a chunk of dark power into your soul, like black magic corruption or a non-Outsider-linked Nemesis, I think that would change you regardless of how experienced you are.
Well, for one thing, saying that the winter mantle does not help against will attack is untrue.
Oh, I think it does help somewhat - when confronting the Lords of Outer Night at the sacrificial altar, he talks about pushing back with his own will and Soulfire and Winter. What I think is misleading is that Bob seems capable of providing essentially total protection, as do the Swords, whereas the Winter Mantle only helps a bit and wouldn't have been sufficient by itself (in that scene, Harry pushes back, but doesn't break free until Lea kills 2 of the LoON and distracts the rest).
Well, Harry ask for overt help like sending an army of einghenjars and Valkyrie. I am certain that Odin is sying the truth when he said he can't grant that kind of help.
I really, really doubt it. Odin can hire Valkyries and Einherjar out to random people like Marcone -- he had Gard working for him way before he had Accords status. So it doesn't seem that any special god-rules limit his ability to send Valkyries on missions.
If you think it through being the winter knight is great for Dresden.
Everyone gets way to hung up on Mab being unlikeable and ignores the big picture.
I totally agree the missions Mab's sent him on were all beneficial things. Harry does seem to view Mab's actions and goals more negatively than the facts really bear out (probably because most Winter Fae are cruel, vicious, and/or prey on humanity ... Mab is occasionally cruel about minor things, like the ice-in-Harry's-eyes bit in SmF, but mostly she's very much "cold calculation".)
However, the big issue with being Winter Knight isn't so much Mab being unlikeable/cruel as it is the corrupting influence of the Mantle itself, though. It often doesn't really seem "worth" what it gives Harry, especially since it comes with the iron weakness of the Fae.
It definitely gives him some physical advantages... but frankly he seems mostly less effective in CD and SG than he was in TC and the early part of Changes, when he had all his gear.
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Odin a god of war for a very violent people.
just because he is likable doesn't mean hes any less cruel or evil than Mab when it comes to accomplishing his goals.
maybe Odin knows Dresden wont go full darkside and he thinks a slightly darker harsher Dresden will do better in the future.
Also maybe all those harsh murdery traits of winter are the side effect of pushing very similar harsh murdery traits that would be necessary for a nation to survive a very bloody, unwinnable and eternal war. or the mental traits of some special forces type who has been on way to many missions.
Also haven't we seen Odin send out one Valkyrie and mostly to help out the same person. and there have been many times when a squad or 2 would have stopped a very bad situation.
hell he told harry he couldn't spare any of them for harry once didnt he?
and i don't know about the ejherjaren. the only thing i can think of that they have acually done was helping stop the time attack ley spell thing.
which is stopping the end of the world and wasn't their mythology very tied to being dormant until Ragnarök. the fact that odin has them out and about might be a very bad sign.
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eh a high school kid with weapons could easily beat some unarmed special forces guy.
Dresden wont be without his gear forever and he will be able to rebuild it with much more skill.
That to me is sorta independent of the winter mantle.
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Also haven't we seen Odin send out one Valkyrie and mostly to help out the same person. and there have been many times when a squad or 2 would have stopped a very bad situation.
hell he told harry he couldn't spare any of them for harry once didnt he?
Well... not quite. He doesn't quite come out and say that he can't... he just says they would be "less strong at the center of the Red King's power".
Which doesn't mean much if you think Odin is manipulating Harry - "less strong" than what?
and i don't know about the ejherjaren. the only thing i can think of that they have acually done was helping stop the time attack ley spell thing.
Nah, they serve Marcone as mercenaries. They're in White Night in the Raith Deeps fight. (Harry just doesn't know what they are yet in that book -- he assumes they're plain old mercenaries. But it's the same group of einherjar from Monoc Securities working for Marcone that is part of the Justice League of Chicago/Brighter Future Society in GS, which is how Murphy can get them to show up for CD.)
Dresden wont be without his gear forever and he will be able to rebuild it with much more skill.
That to me is sorta independent of the winter mantle.
That's true, but it seems to me that some of the benefits of the Mantle will be less significant then, and/or somewhat redundant with stuff he could do with his gear.
The extra resilience with the risk of overextending himself actually seems pretty similar to the effects of his super-coffee potion in FM and bear belt-buckle in BR. It's not clear to me that if Harry made a similar item with his current level of skill, it wouldn't be at least as good as what the Mantle gives him. And his duster was a really powerful defense.
The extra physical strength is nice, but with his gear to boost his magic-based offense and make him more efficient so he doesn't run out as fast (and make shields quicker and better so monsters don't get in his face) he'd have much less reason to punch stuff - and Harry's used his force rings in combination with a punch before, IIRC.
The ability to use ice magic instinctively is cool, but I don't know how much actual utility it gives him -- is freezing a monster actually more effective at killing it than frying it or blasting it with force? There are some definite non-combat advantages, though -- Harry puts out a fire at Mac's and lifts the sunken warehouse with ice in CD. (On the other hand, Harry used fire magic to cool things down without the mantle - freezing a puddle to make the Scarecrow slip in PG, and freezing the lake to escape from the Water Beetle in WN. The warehouse thing likely was too big for him before, though.)
It certainly wouldn't be useless, even with his full gear set. But I'm not sure the advantages it provides would be worth the iron vulnerability* + the risk of being driven "off mission" by the mental effects of the Mantle if he really draws upon it.
*Arguably being pierced by iron just turns off the Mantle's advantages, it doesn't really technically make him worse off than without the Mantle. But the Mantle's tendency to make Harry not notice damage still leads to it being a weakness in practice, IMO - being stabbed with a nail wouldn't have flat out incapacitated Harry in earlier books, he's generally pretty capable at pushing through pain.
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*Arguably being pierced by iron just turns off the Mantle's advantages, it doesn't really technically make him worse off than without the Mantle. But the Mantle's tendency to make Harry not notice damage still leads to it being a weakness in practice, IMO - being stabbed with a nail wouldn't have flat out incapacitated Harry in earlier books, he's generally pretty capable at pushing through pain.
Was about to say this. I think it's a net positive, even with all of the gear advantages. The nail incapacitates him because he's beat to hell, badly, likely concussed from the bomb and being in a car wreck. The second time, he's in even worse shape. But aside from all that, he's able to push cars, leap incredible distances, and pump out enough magic to lift the warehouse, as you mentioned. It's all heavy lifting stuff. Think about how much his gear can amplify or complement the Mantle's bonuses, and I think they will far outweigh the negatives.
Hell, just having enough physical strength and toughness to stay conscious during a beating is enough of an advantage for him, considering how often it happens.
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It was flooring him just fine in Cold Days, long before he got all his more recent mantle-driven damage accumulation. Floored fix too. It was more than just turning the mantle off, it cause interaction/interference with the Winter energy. In skin game I got the sense he was just better at managing the Mantle now so he was able to deal with it better than before.
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i want to point out that injuries almost never leave iron inside of someone. I was an emt/firefighter for a number of years and you just don't see things like that much. knives/etc usually don't stay in.
like for 100 trauma calls or vehicle collisions you might get 1 where theres something sticking out.
and that seems to just turn off his mantle so if the mantle wasn't the only thing keeping him conscious he can quickly remove the knife/ect .
99 times out of 100 this magical toughness would be a godsend while once it will be a liability
i don't see the iron thing as much of a disadvantage
bullets are lead and i want to say are usually jacketed with non iron softer metals(copper/brass) so as not to mess up a guns rifling.
when he remakes his duster and isn't fighting naked it will become almost a non issue
the mental effects seem to be a super adrenaline rush which is the exact set of responses evolution has made so people are more likely to survive violent encounters.
If he were to become a lawyer or polititian it would be a liability but dresden is basicly a warrior and these effects already seem to have caused him to survive a few times when he wouldn't have.
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i want to point out that injuries almost never leave iron inside of someone. I was an emt/firefighter for a number of years and you just don't see things like that much. knives/etc usually don't stay in.
like for 100 trauma calls or vehicle collisions you might get 1 where theres something sticking out.
and that seems to just turn off his mantle so if the mantle wasn't the only thing keeping him conscious he can quickly remove the knife/ect .
99 times out of 100 this magical toughness would be a godsend while once it will be a liability
i don't see the iron thing as much of a disadvantage
bullets are lead and i want to say are usually jacketed with non iron softer metals(copper/brass) so as not to mess up a guns rifling.
when he remakes his duster and isn't fighting naked it will become almost a non issue
the mental effects seem to be a super adrenaline rush which is the exact set of responses evolution has made so people are more likely to survive violent encounters.
If he were to become a lawyer or polititian it would be a liability but dresden is basicly a warrior and these effects already seem to have caused him to survive a few times when he wouldn't have.
Yea that was a lot of the point to Lacuna's Hook armor, barbs meant to break off or otherwise attach.