It was stated that the Webbing operation requires it to be charged with electricity (specifically, not just energy) to be able to catch the Ether like a sail, which is why they need to be energized by the core crystal.
Also, I believe they said the reason some ships couldnt do Dives is that they were too massive and so it would rip the crystals out of their mountings to try to decelerate out of the dive.
Excellent observations. From an Electrical Engineering PoV, it implies a voltage gradient in the air that the "webbing" has to be charged to generate force against, however, the force is transferred at the crystals judging by the mount observation.Well, AC motors dont need something to start itonly because the current itself is constantly changing, it's one of the particular quirks of AC power. In DC motors you need some starting torque to get the cycle operating, or it stalls out/locks up. But that's a matter of starting a cycle. I think the web function is more that the Etheric force goes right through the physical material, but it can pusha nd pull on the energy field that surrounds a charged web.
I had thought that the webbing gets an induced "current" that then gets channeled to and harnessed by the crystals to drive the ships.QuoteI havent gotten to the scene with Journeymand and Gwen, but in the early scene where Brigit is musing about the ship's design she says:Of course, induced current in a conductor is how AC motors generate torque period, but they don't require the conductor being acted upon to be pre-charged.
"The more webbing one let out of the reel, the more etheric energy it could catch and the faster it would drive the ship forward.of course, the web had to be charged with electricity in order to function, so the airships were limited in teh amount of web they could charge by the strength of their power cores."
I took that to mean that the webbing's acted in all ways like a traditional sail, only that they were pushed on by 'etheric energy' instead of wind, and that all the cores did was provide the charge that allowed the etheric energy to act on the web and 'push' it, as if the etheric energy were essentiall a magnetic wind. However, looking back at the passage it would fit equally well with what you decribe, where the webbing is more of a funnel that gathers the energy and channels it into some other Drive system. So far Ive only noticed mention of Trim and Drive crystals in the context how fast they can climb and dive, but I dont recall a mention of a crystal providing the forward force, at least not yet.
Of course, induced current in a conductor is how AC motors generate torque period, but they don't require the conductor being acted upon to be pre-charged.
Well, AC motors dont need something to start itonly because the current itself is constantly changing, it's one of the particular quirks of AC power. In DC motors you need some starting torque to get the cycle operating, or it stalls out/locks up. But that's a matter of starting a cycle.
*blink blink*...sort of. That is single phase vs 3-phase power, but both are still AC induction motors. I was harking back to the differences between Alternating and Direct Current in electric motors, thinking more int eh War of Currents era of things.
*desperately resists the urge to launch into a long post about motor theory*
OMG this is almost painful.
Blarg. Here, I believe this website (http://www.groschopp.com/how-does-a-single-phase-motor-work/) explains what you were trying to say about starting torque for different motor designs.
You may now go to your regularly scheduled fictional technology theorizing.
Can we square this circle somehow?My best guess would be that the mighty Battleship named Dreadnought was the original of a new design (and a flagship by the sound of it) and that afterward they started mass producing a new class of battleship based on it's design.(click to show/hide)
Compare that to(click to show/hide)
Correct me if I'm wrong here...Both, actually :)
But wasn't Dreadnaught mentioned as the name of Albion's largest Battleship, rather than as a class of it's own?
Also, Predator is mentioned as being Destroyer-sized, but in the very opening narrations it's described as explicitly not being a military ship. It lacks the armour of a military craft, for one thing.To be fair that may partly be an organizational distinction as much as a practical one. Preddy is heavily armed and certainly a combat vessel, but still a civilian vessel rather than a military one (ie part of Fleet). And the merchant ships of the pirate days were often at least as well armed as the military ships.
Can we square this circle somehow?(click to show/hide)
Compare that to(click to show/hide)
Also, Predator is mentioned as being Destroyer-sized, but in the very opening narrations it's described as explicitly not being a military ship. It lacks the armour of a military craft, for one thing.
To be fair that may partly be an organizational distinction as much as a practical one. Preddy is heavily armed and certainly a combat vessel, but still a civilian vessel rather than a military one (ie part of Fleet). And the merchant ships of the pirate days were often at least as well armed as the military ships.
@ Serack: Does the technical design of the ship make sense from an Electrical Eng. point of view? I ask because I am in Civil, so my alarm bells won't be set off from anything other then something really basic. The iea of an electrical gradient in the air makes sense to me, since there is a gradient formed prior to a lightning strike during a thunderstorm, so a lesser, but more sustainable (as in it doesn't burn up after one "strike") gradient could be established by the webbing. Although an electrical field "sail" could also work, but I would think that the environment would be too harsh to survive without protective gear if you have enough of a charge in the wind to push on the sail.
My best guess would be that the mighty Battleship named Dreadnought was the original of a new design (and a flagship by the sound of it) and that afterward they started mass producing a new class of battleship based on it's design.
Excellent observations. From an Electrical Engineering PoV, it implies a voltage gradient in the air that the "webbing" has to be charged to generate force against, however, the force is transferred at the crystals judging by the mount observation.
I had thought that the webbing gets an induced "current" that then gets channeled to and harnessed by the crystals to drive the ships.
I'd assume it's more of a reference to the historical HMS Dreadnought (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought) whose design was so influential that post Dreadnought battleships (who used the Dreadnoughts armament layout) were often referred to as 'dreadnoughts] and battleships completed using the old design scheme were relabeled as 'pre-dreadnoughts'
I agree that merchantmen used to carry heavy armaments back during the golden age of piracy. But my point here is that all military vessels we see in the book are armoured. Predator isn't. The closest classification I can find for her is a Q-ship: A warship disguised as a merchantman, but carrying military-grade weaponry.Fair point
It looks like the webbing needs to be electrically charged to interact with the winds in the ether. The crystals provide the electrical power to do this. In addition, the webbing is a specific thing that interacts with the curents/winds in the ether. A 'regular' object charged with electricity doesn't seem to have any problems with wanting to move around.Agreed. And one of the noted differences between using the Ethereal Sails and wind power is that wind dictates your direction, which by implication is not an issue with the etheric ones. The part describing the paratroopers infiltration seemed to indicate that the webs are indeed a special material, so I think that normal things simply dont interect with the energy.
Agreed. And one of the noted differences between using the Ethereal Sails and wind power is that wind dictates your direction, which by implication is not an issue with the etheric ones. The part describing the paratroopers infiltration seemed to indicate that the webs are indeed a special material, so I think that normal things simply dont interect with the energy.
Next, on to more about how things look and work.They reel them out, but how much they can reel is limited by the ship size. Ill have to check but i think they mentioned how the Iscica (sp?) had more reels than them as well, being substantially larger than the other vessels. Im still combing it for more references about the direction of the motive force, but Im still thinking the crystals only go up and down, which is why the dives are still the best tactic for speed.
Would assume deploying the webbing is something similar to parachute spider use, since it doesn't seem to need to be directly manipulated by the sailors, just spun out of the ships web masts, or whatever they are called.
It sounds like ship will typically have 4 sets of webbing, which I'd guess are deployed in a + or X shape around the ship. Since it sounds like you don't tack or otherwise change the webbing to sail in different directions I guess it just provides motive power straight ahead, no need chance how the webbing of the ship depending on which way the ether wind is blowing.
Next, shrouds are spherical, so I'd guess that airships would generally be pretty rounded themselves.It described the shroud as extending out in a radius from the hull, but I dont know if it was literally spherical (emitted in radius from central Core Crystal) or a field that matched the ship shape so some extent. For that matter I need to find a reference to whether it was a direct function of the Core Crystal or if it had additional systems.
It sounds like warships are typically armored on the sides, but considerably less armored on the top and bottom. Of course, this could just be the case with lighter ships. Their armor may just be concentrated in the places a light ship is more likely to be shot. While heavier (and presumably less agile) ships might have heavier ventral and dorsal armor.The cannon fire is etheric in nature just like the gauntlets, to it's possible that the ship armor functions by diverting the energy, much like those etheric silk vests that they were using, rather than traditional plating.
It's not entirely clear whether armor is fully ablative or more 'bouncy', but it looks like most battles are relatively close actions, which means that carrying armor heavy enough to bounce shots may be difficult.
Would think that fire would be a major concern on airships, since they are largely made of wood, and there's no handy ocean to get water from. Probably a fortune to be made in developing light weight firefighting foam, since loading your airship down with (heavy) water is probably not the most useful thing to carry. Though there are some interesting possibilities for water jackets, similar to how tank ammunition is stored in certain tanks.Would be that the same could be said for a Habble made out of wood too... I think the Builders even had rules about such things.
Airships do have movable planes or winglets as control surfaces, though the airship needs to be going fast enough that there is enough air passing over them to provide much control. Would imply that they have pretty serious maneuverability problems at low speeds.Now clear how the steam engine or steam turbine moves the ship. I guess they turn props?
Would assume that airships are not made of iron because of the iron rot. All the follow on possibilities, like Duralumin and Beryllium copper are too high tech. Though, in theory, they do probably have enough electrical power to smelt aluminum. Alas, power crystals go into airships, so no spare power for the industrial revolution.Wood. Good old fashioned expensive, dangerous, flammable wood. Tar sealants, etc.
And with no overseas colonies to exploit for more raw materials, I'd guess that resource wars of one sort or another are pretty common.True, thought they have a ridiculously dangerous Surface world to exploit when they are crazy enough. Apparently they still do even use overland travel at times.
They reel them out, but how much they can reel is limited by the ship size. Ill have to check but i think they mentioned how the Iscica (sp?) had more reels than them as well, being substantially larger than the other vessels.
Im still combing it for more references about the direction of the motive force, but Im still thinking the crystals only go up and down, which is why the dives are still the best tactic for speed.Ships has several crystals:
It described the shroud as extending out in a radius from the hull, but I dont know if it was literally spherical (emitted in radius from central Core Crystal) or a field that matched the ship shape so some extent. For that matter I need to find a reference to whether it was a direct function of the Core Crystal or if it had additional systems.
The shroud was a field of energy generated by a ship’s crystal power core. When a cannon blast struck the shroud, it illuminated like a hazy, spherical cloud flickering with lightning, absorbing the incoming fire and dispersing its energy safely before it could strike the ship. Shrouds were a strain upon a ship’s core, a tremendous demand upon the core’s energy reserve. One did not simply sail along with the ship’s shroud raised and in place.
That being said, a firefighting foam or powder or even tanks of inert gas certainly wouldnt be out of the question for their tech level.
“What kind of altitude could she take us to, chief?”
Journeyman scratched his ear with one broken-nailed finger. “Seven, maybe eight miles? Way higher’n we could breathe without tanks, anyway
I was under the impression that the Itasca had more webbing to put out just like they had more guns. It's more about how much storage space, 'accounted for' damage resistance, etc that comes from being a both larger and a dedicated warship.Agreed, I just thought it was specifically mentioned, like how it has three Core Crystals. I could easily be wrong though.
I got the impression main maneuvers were accomplished with the etheric silk web, and only used steam or wind power when they could not use their web for some reason (like having it burned away, or needing quiet).
Ship can be maneuvered by changing power to the lift crystals, but is rather exacting and wallowing. Main airship maneuvers are managed with rudder/winglets, but those require airflow.
Dives are fast because you can just turn off your lift crystal and do them. No need to worry about how much webbing your can power, or whatever.Agreed, the web appears to be a maneuvering rig. It's related in that it's another drain on the Core's available power, but the web doesnt appear to feed power/electricity anywhere, rather it uses electricity and generates (or captures) motive force.
Had thought that compressed gas would be beyond them, but:In general Id say Compressed Gas will always have to be possible for people with steam power.
This is what I have so far, but if you can think of something I missed please feel free to add it.
Random Question: is the lift crystal, the Mark IV-D, is that pronounced "Mark Four Dee" or "Mark Four-Five Hundred"?
Random Question: is the lift crystal, the Mark IV-D, is that pronounced "Mark Four Dee" or "Mark Four-Five Hundred"?
I like it and it could suggest a roman history to this new world.
Thing is, the Spirestone and the vat technology implies an advanced civilization that has declined. Reverting to roman numerals after (presumably) knowing about positional notation seems a little funny."Reverting" seems a little extreme. It's been 700 years since Roman numerals have started to decline in our history, and they're still fairly common.
"Reverting" seems a little extreme. It's been 700 years since Roman numerals have started to decline in our history, and they're still fairly common.
Sure, because there is such a strong Roman influence on western civilzation. Even so, you'll see them mainly for small numbers (e.g. to number pages in an index instead of using a,b,c). I don't think you'll generally find numbers over 100, unless someone is trying to explicitly make something feel archaic.There's a strong Roman-like influence on the Spires, too. Overall though, I agree that the D probably isn't a Roman numeral. It takes up too much room to write large Roman numerals.
There's a strong Roman-like influence on the Spires, too. Overall though, I agree that the D probably isn't a Roman numeral. It takes up too much room to write large Roman numerals.
Thing is, the Spirestone and the vat technology implies an advanced civilization that has declined. Reverting to roman numerals after (presumably) knowing about positional notation seems a little funny.Perhaps, but that assumes that The Builders were Human in the first place. The Spires are an advanced technology that is well outside the capabilities of modern RL humanity (on shear size and self-sustaining autonomous function), and given the other elements of more rudimentary technologies and I wonder if they weren't built by somebody else and either Given To or Taken By the ancestor's of humanity.
Perhaps, but that assumes that The Builders were Human in the first place. The Spires are an advanced technology that is well outside the capabilities of modern RL humanity (on shear size and self-sustaining autonomous function), and given the other elements of more rudimentary technologies and I wonder if they weren't built by somebody else and either Given To or Taken By the ancestor's of humanity.
Still, from everything we've seen, I submit that it takes quite serious maintenance to keep a Spire running. Vents, light, air, water, minerals, growth, recycling, etc., it's almost like living in a spaceship. If you start from anything too primitive, you really need to educate the people who are going to be living in the Spire, otherwise I think everything will crumble before too long.I dont mean to imply that they are operating with Zero work or maintenance from the human inhabitants, but I do think that overall the Sipres run themselves, powered by that massive flow of etheric energy that Folly saw, and is for the most part as incomprehensible to the current residents as is Spirestone and the various other bits of Builder craft we've seen. Im picturing a system similar to that of Zion from the Matrix sequels that most of us are still trying to forget.
I dont mean to imply that they are operating with Zero work or maintenance from the human inhabitants, but I do think that overall the Sipres run themselves, powered by that massive flow of etheric energy that Folly saw, and is for the most part as incomprehensible to the current residents as is Spirestone and the various other bits of Builder craft we've seen. Im picturing a system similar to that of Zion from the Matrix sequels that most of us are still trying to forget.
To your point, the spires do work, but I still submit that to really support human life you would need some tech. As an example, I'm sure the vats don't run themselves, and you need things like ready access to clean water, ways to remove waste that don't clog things up, and possibly even things to clean out the air/water shafts (from soot, smoke, etc). As much as you want to ragnarok-proof the spire itself, it still is quite a fragile ecology.just to be clear: when you say "need some tech" do you mean "
just to be clear: when you say "need some tech" do you mean "Human'sResidents would need some technical knowledge"?
I'm saying that if the residents technical knowledge ever went down to dark age (or pre-roman) levels, they would never make it back up.Precisely. They might make advances of their own (ie crystal tech) but the Spires themselves will be "winding down" and eventually, inevitably fail....
Precisely. They might make advances of their own (ie crystal tech) but the Spires themselves will be "winding down" and eventually, inevitably fail....
If The Enemy doesnt bring them down first. *cue ominous music*
It's more than just the "Enemy". Unless we believe that the entire Auroran high command has been Nfected (for the lack of a better word), then there has to be a reasonable military reason why they were willing to spend so much to burn the library. Consider that they only sent ~25 men to destroy the main crystal vattery which could have crippled Albion's fleet, while they were willing to spend 450 men to make sure the library burns completely to the ground.Are we sure those plans were formed by Auroran High Command and not Cavendish?
Are we sure those plans were formed by Auroran High Command and not Cavendish?
The major in charge of the marines talks about getting a promotion and how killing Cavendish would look bad back home. Also, combined with the destroyer attack, it's pretty obvious that the attack was well planned out and sanctioned by the high command. I suppose it's possible that Cavendish convinced them of the importance of that one book, but I would think that a more concrete advantage would be something more understandable by the rank and file.That was where I was going with it: that it's possible that she convinced them of the tactical advantage of burning the library without actually revealing the value (or goal) of that particular text. It could go either way, if the Spirearch is aware of it there's no reason to think the opposing leadership might not as well.
That was where I was going with it: that it's possible that she convinced them of the tactical advantage of burning the library without actually revealing the value (or goal) of that particular text. It could go either way, if the Spirearch is aware of it there's no reason to think the opposing leadership might not as well.
Yes.Where did we find out that the spirearch is an etherealist? It seems a little reckless to make the head of your government subject to the compulsions of an etherealist no matter how much of a figurehead he is.
Of course, the Spirearch is an etheriaslist himself (and one of the dangerous ones apparently), so he might have a leg up on the opposition.
Where did we find out that the spirearch is an etherealist? It seems a little reckless to make the head of your government subject to the compulsions of an etherealist no matter how much of a figurehead he is.
Pretty sure I saw that claim when he first assembles the team. Note also that Cavendish seems to refers to him ("that spider") as if he had powers.I took spider as him sitting in the center of an information network. I still doubt he's an actual etherealist. He doesn't have any obvious compulsions, which according to Jim is a sign of real danger.
Of course, the Spirearch is an etheriaslist himself (and one of the dangerous ones apparently), so he might have a leg up on the opposition.
Pretty sure I saw that claim when he first assembles the team. Note also that Cavendish seems to refers to him ("that spider") as if he had powers.Not anywhere that I can find, and Ive been looking ever since that theory started circulating. And it would make him by far the most frightening and most dangerous character so far, because it would mean he has the Buried Crazy.
Not anywhere that I can find, and Ive been looking ever since that theory started circulating. And it would make him by far the most frightening and most dangerous character so far, because it would mean he has the Buried Crazy.
Are we sure those plans were formed by Auroran High Command and not Cavendish?
Yeah, I was just looking for it again myself but couldn't find it. It would kinda fit with everything else we've seen about him, and yes, it would make him one of the "dangerous ones".What do you see it fitting? Because I havent been able to figure out where that hope is coming from at all. Im guessing there is more to it than an extension of the the traditional "Everybody needs to have Jedi powers, even Han, because characters cant be interesting without it."
What do you see it fitting? Because I havent been able to figure out where that hope is coming from at all. Im guessing there is more to it than an extension of the the traditional "Everybody needs to have Jedi powers, even Han, because characters cant be interesting without it."
It's not a hope (frankly I agree with your sentiment), merely a feeling based on some of his intereactions. All of this is circumstantial of course but:Fair to say, but I took that to be the saavy stance of a veteran politician that cant Openly lead because he's the Chair of a Committee rather than Commander and Chief. Not unliek Gaius Sextus, in that regard.
1) He is definetly trying to hide his full competence, and it shows. You've got him feigning to be a nobody in the shop, pretending he doesn't know what trim crystal are, pretending not to care about politics, etc. So what are his full capabilities? We'll find out.
2) There's the quote from Cavendish (though I'll admit it can be read in different ways).The Spider thing? Considering the same was used (admittedly in a different way) to describe her Batman, Im not ready to lock the Spider=Etherealist equivalency just yet, not until we get a better look at the controlling 'Enemy'. And again it's a term that was used to describe Gaius Sextus as a skilled political veteran.
3) Maybe it's just me, but his manner of speaking is very similar to Ferus during his lucid moments. Though maybe that's just the "scholarly voice" coming through.Ya, scoloarly voice is how I saw those. If we see it go the other way, seeing the Spirearch acting in any way erratic/crazy/damaged, even a hint of low-level OCD, and Id be far more willing to get on-board.
4) He's making big decisions (the supercrystal for the ship, the away team, warning the guilds in habble Landing) that seems to imply a certain amount of foresight . Sure, he could merely be a very good planner, but the set of coincidences that created this win seem a little "future vision" type thing.The only one of those I see as needing any amount of foresight, and not simply an eye for capable people and a willingness to invest in them, is the warning of the Guilds. He's entirely aware of Grimm's past and his extreme dedication to Duty, so the crystals he gave were Golden Chains as much as anything else. But arguably were a fully justified war tactic, upgrading the predator which is alrady one of the Spire's more potent tools (And Im assuming he's aware of the first Gen crystal as well, which makes Preddy an even more valuable war resource).
For example, what's with sending the Lancaster girl as "the smooth talker"? His one interaction with her must have shown him that she's way less competent than she thinks she is. It is arguable that Benedict would have done better with any of their interactions (the marines, the innkeeper, the potential ambush on the way to the inn). And yet sending her coincidentally allows Predator to be fixed in time. Very fortunate.I submit to you that Gwen herself was the only one that thought she was there as "a smooth talker." She was a Battering Ram. One who is entirely willing to bring the full brunt of aristocratic privileged to bear, but one who has the ethical grounding to do so without the sort of foppish arrogance that would normally come right along with it and do more harm than good.
All in all there's nothing here conclusive, but it's a feeling I can't deny -- so much that I thought I saw a quote confirming it.Haha, been there... :)
I submit to you that Gwen herself was the only one that thought she was there as "a smooth talker."
but one who has the ethical grounding to do so without the sort of foppish arrogance that would normally come right along with it and do more harm than good.
Also, fwiw, I think he was far more aware of her than she realized and than just from that one 'chance' meeting; I think he was checking her out because of her involvement in the Duel that he'd let become a focal point for the new Legal Status of Cats.
I will say that IF he is an etherealist, it's his most closely guarded secret. They know precisely how cracked that power makes you, sooner or later, and I doubt they let such a person remain in a position of prime leadership. I expect there are even Laws against it.
I thought that was his explanation of why she was on the team. Honestly though, I'd have to reread that passage. It's very possible he assigned her to be a battering ram and she took it as "smooth talker".Not "Smooth Talker," just "Smoother."
"Having taken note of your talents and your obvious, ah, determination to stay your course, regardless of how ill-conceived it might be, I am sending you as a smoother."A Smoother...much like a Bulldozer smooths the way for a new road. :)
"A what?" "
Your duty is to smooth the way for Master Ferus's Inquisition. The inquisition must keep moving forward. You are to avoid, overcome, or knock down any obstructions that may block his path."
She discharged a firearm in a crowded area. I question her grounding.Her /ethical/ grounding seems considerable, her sense of Duty etc are all fine. It's her patience, restraint and common sense that seem lacking. But then that's why he also sent a Cat. Obviously. :P
It's her patience, restraint and common sense that seem lacking. But then that's why he also sent a Cat. Obviously. :P
Yeah, between Gwen and Rowl, I wonder who would win in an arrogance contest.haha, a human doesnt stand a chance against that
I think Jim may have lifted the ship class naming conventions off of David Weber's Honor Harrington series (a sci-fi take on Horatio Hornblower as opposed to Jim's steam punk take).You are not wrong with your description, and I enjoyed the Honor Harrington series, but this naming scheme was not developed by David Weber, it comes from British Royal Navy classification, and is used in not only the Honor Harrington series, but also in almost all military SciFi series. Here is a link to a site that gives a lot of info on the classifications.
In increasing order in size in that universe with a line break
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Battlecruiser
----
Battleship
Dreadnought
Superdreadnought