Oof. And I'm pretty sure Harry hasn't called once since coming back. He's just like that, not calling on his friends for years on end.
Kincaid was never really his friend. He just owed Harry one.I suspect he's talking about Ivy, not Kincaid.
Addendum:
That means Ivy is /alone/. That's got to be problematic just from her mental/social/emotional state...
True, but Ivy seems to know what's going down. She *asks* for a chest shot. She knows what's going down and wants to ensure Harry can be recovered. Which means she was intentionally or unintentionally clued in by conversations with Mab and DR. And if she knows this, she (present day) knows Harry lives. Sure it was rough on her, but not nearly as traumatic as Molly had to deal with.He used the phone which meant that the conversation with Kincaid went digital. So she owns it, unless the Archive is obsolete. And since she can model the future she knows Harry's best chance was for a chest shot. Which explains something. It's possible that she knew during Ghost Story what was going on. Also Harry is a d**k if he didn't write a note to her after he woke up.
I guess I am saying, is it fair to measure him this way? He has more than unusual and difficult challenges. He absolutely could improve and do better, and have made better choices. But he isn't perfect or infallible and he doesn't know the future. If you want to judge him so, perhaps reread the passage in Skin Games where Harry first talks to Michael after the first encounter with Tessa and reexamine the question in your thoughts. Michael says it best.
Yes, I'm agreeing with you.
He might still be ashamed about the whole Winter Knight business and his failed suicide. Most other friends he didn't really contact by choice but more out of necessity or they contacted him. He didn't call Ebenezar either, for example.
I think it'd be in character for Harry to avoid talking to them and justifying it because they almost certainly knew by the time he had the time to call. His return in Cold Days wasn't exactly low-key.
I was very sad about Kinkaid and I really hope they can compose their relationship. And I do wish Harry has written something to Ivy perhaps even to tell Kinkaid (as Harry probably does not know what happened between them).Suicide is a selfish action. It may not seem like it is to the person contemplating it, but it is. I am forgetting about the push he got from Lasciel, though, so maybe I'm being too harsh on him.
Still, I am glad we now know why Kinkaid shot to the chest, and I agree with Kindler, she told Mab.
I really, really hope Harry has not broke Ivy's heart for ever. I want them to have a few cute interactions yet. In fact, I wish Ivy meets Maggie Jr. someday-
@spiritofair: Harry was not selfish! He was misguided, yes, but his actions were not inspired by selfishness but love. Still, he was unfair with Molly. He did not realized how much he will be hurting her.
I get the feeling that the Archive knew all along what was going down, and it and Mab, perhaps with some help from Uriel set it all up. That is why Ivy insisted on a chest shot knowing that Mab would be waiting in the icy water to catch Harry and wisk him away to the island before he expired beyond retrieval.. Uriel may have made the wind blow just enough to throw the bullet off a couple of critical millimeters so the shot didn't cause instant death, perhaps even giving Harry a bit of a push so he'd land in the water as opposed to on the deck where he would have bled out in seconds and became all dead.
So no doubt, Ivy knew he wasn't dead.. Kincaid may not know, nor Eb, but think of the events of Cold Days, Harry was pretty busy at the time with more important things than letting his friends know that he was alive.
I'm also going to say it here: Ivy contacted Mab and told her what was going to happen, but waited until Kincaid's flight landed or something. That's how Mab knew to save him, and that's why Ivy insisted on a center-mass shot instead of a headshot.Ivy works through proxies.
I don't think Uriel is allowed to interfere like that, but you don't need it. Mab is the Queen of the Air, so she could have done the wind thing you propose :)
And yes, in CD Harry was busy but still, writing a small note only takes a minute. And then, you have free time until SG.
However who made sure he fell in the water? ...I find it persuasive that one of Mab's titles is "Queen of Air and Darkness." I think deflecting a bullet is well within her capabilities.
... Realistically a small note wouldn't do it, it isn't like Harry came back unexpectedly from Egypt or something. EVERYONE thought he had died, he was given a funeral, he was mourned, it takes more than a small note to explain that and he just didn't have the time.
I mean being entirely fair, the only person Susan was actually hiding Maggie from was Harry.
Even without Martin turning traitor, the Red Court would have found her, seeing as Susan's "Brilliant Plan" was to "hide" Maggie In Red Court Territory, where she would go to visit her, while actively battling the Red Court, and being a known ex-lover of Dresden, who was in Chicago around 9 months prior to her Birth.
It's almost as moronic as her plan to break in to a Vampire Masquerade Ball, and proves that she learned nothing from that whole endeavor.
Suicide is a selfish action. It may not seem like it is to the person contemplating it, but it is. I am forgetting about the push he got from Lasciel, though, so maybe I'm being too harsh on him.
I mean being entirely fair, the only person Susan was actually hiding Maggie from was Harry.Jim has Uriel call out Harry's behavior in Ghost Story. And Mab puts a coda on it in Cold Days. Unless I went off the rails in my understanding of what Ghost Story and Cold Days were supposed to represent in Harry's development as a character, it is about choices both good and bad that Harry makes and what it costs those people around him.
Even without Martin turning traitor, the Red Court would have found her, seeing as Susan's "Brilliant Plan" was to "hide" Maggie In Red Court Territory, where she would go to visit her, while actively battling the Red Court, and being a known ex-lover of Dresden, who was in Chicago around 9 months prior to her Birth.
It's almost as moronic as her plan to break in to a Vampire Masquerade Ball, and proves that she learned nothing from that whole endeavor.
Jim has Uriel call out Harry's behavior in Ghost Story. And Mab puts a coda on it in Cold Days. Unless I went off the rails in my understanding of what Ghost Story and Cold Days were supposed to represent in Harry's development as a character, it is about choices both good and bad that Harry makes and what it costs those people around him.
If you devalue Susan's choices, you devalue what it cost Harry to make his. The Archive's interaction with Kincaid is just another example of that. Jim has Harry's friends pay high prices to be associated with him.
Suicide, normally, is a uniquely personal act, taken in isolation. Harry's isn't that and it's unfair to compare it to some person who just can't see a way forward. Harry's is calculated, and involves people outside of himself who pay a price to help him get out from under.
Doesn't change the fact that Susan was not rational in hiding Maggie from her father, and is apparently even more allergic to rational thought then Dresden himself.
Suicide, normally, is a uniquely personal act, taken in isolation. Harry's isn't that and it's unfair to compare it to some person who just can't see a way forward. Harry's is calculated, and involves people outside of himself who pay a price to help him get out from under.
Of course Harry was being irrational and stupid in Changes. The entire story is him going completely off the rails to save someone that he only really cares about on a conceptual level and throwing the people he actually loves under a bus out of sheer selfishness, and then killing himself because his martyr-complex-self is more comfortable with him dying 'nobly' then owning up to the consequences of his own asshattery.
Doesn't change the fact that Susan was not rational in hiding Maggie from her father, and is apparently even more allergic to rational thought then Dresden himself.
Disagree with your interpretations. I agree that Harry was irrational all through Changes, but it was because he cares, not because he's got some noble death fixation. Think: Harry has been an orphan since he was what, 6? His adoptive father was abusive, twisted, and evil, and then was killed by Harry when he tried to mind control him (and succeeded in mind controlling Harry's first gf). His first job as a private detective was with a guy who searches for missing children he rarely finds and apparently can only afford to live in his office in a run down, bad part of town on the border of gang territory. With Harry's skills, he could easily have built a much easier life for himself, but he doesn't, he continues to do what he thinks is right. He is constantly describing how happy Michael's kids are in the books. Also, remember when he got his hand fried? Harry has a fixation on Family, and another on saving and protecting children from all the horrors of the world. He's going on , trucking along, witnessing all the horrors of the world (not least of which is what the Red Court does, especially when it targets young people) and burning them down whenever possible for people he has never even met before, and then, suddenly, he finds out out of nowhere that not only does he have a daughter, but the red court has her and are probably planning to do something horrible to her. Changes is nothing but Harry dialing up his usual behavior to save his own daughter, his family, you know, that thing he always, always wished he had for his whole life. The situation has changed, he now has something personal to fight for, and he goes completely off the rails trying to do it. Make no mistake, children of your own change everything, whether you've met them before or not. The only people who wouldn't be affected are those who are married to cold, hard, logic (or people trying to apply cold economics to Harry Dresden), and when has that ever described Harry Dresden?
On another topic: I never cared for Susan. I didn't like her in the first three books, didn't like her when she became "She-Hulk" by Death Masks, and certainly didn't like her when we found out that she was hiding Dresden's daughter from him. I mostly found her annoying. In my opinion, her best contribution to the series was giving Harry his duster.
There is an enormous difference between not using a condom and going after the people who kidnapped your daughter. They're not even remotely comparable.Nor has anyone made such a comparison.
... This same author has Harry create a means of restraining Susan so he can have unprotected sex ...I had understood that to be a defensive tool Harry had previously made for his home, in a preemptive what-if-something-tricked-me-into-inviting-it-in manner, NOT something he made to get sexytime with Susan.
I had understood that to be a defensive tool Harry had previously made for his home, in a preemptive what-if-something-tricked-me-into-inviting-it-in manner, NOT something he made to get sexytime with Susan.Right, hold that thought.
It was a spur of the moment re-purposing.
And I suspect that Harry was thinking (IF he was thinking) that a half-turned Susan wouldn't be able to conceive.
It's not like horny-and-frustrated people are well-known for making solid choices, as a general rule.
Molly grinned and enunciated. "But the bleep part would make her lose control."
I coughed uncomfortably, lowering my hands. "Basically. Yeah."
"Why don't you tie her up?"
I stared at the kid for a second.
She lifted her eyebrows expectantly.
"What?" I stammered.
"It's only practical," Molly stated firmly. "And hey, you've already got the handcuffs. If she can't move while the two of you are bleeping, she can't drink your blood, right?"
I stood up and started climbing down the ladder. "This conversation has become way too bleeping disturbing."
LMAO. This same author has Harry create a means of restraining Susan so he can have unprotected sex. Based off an idea from a conversation with a 14 year old. I mean consider, the way the story is written. It takes more effort than IVF in a modern hospital, to create that child. If he really had cared about progeny, he would have used a condom. Real men think of their offspring before they have them.
Dresden is closer to Batman than Superman, in that he is flawed and driven by his demons. It's one of the things that make the character appealing. But what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander in terms of Susan. She is flawed as well. I'm sorry that she engenders a lot of hate. Because she makes Harry's story.
Right, hold that thought.
I’d enchanted the rope six months before, but I’d done it right. It took barely a whisper of power
to set the rope into motion. It whipped into the air, silver threads flashing, and bound itself around her
wrists in neat loops.
Yeah, poor Susan, I don't remember her taking responsibility for stealing that invitation which led to her plight in the first place.
Harry to Kim: "No I won't show you how to do this thing because you won't tell me what it's about and it's above you're skill level"And yet he learned from it and handled later instances better.
Kim: *Does it, it's beyond her skill, she dies, Surprised Pikachu face*
Harry to Susan: "Neither of us are going to this Party because the monsters aren't interested in doing interviews with what are, from their PoV, Hamburgers- and even if they were, this particular Vampire has a hate-boner for me and is 100% going to try and pull something"
Susan *Does it, gets turned, Surprised Pikachu face*
Harry told them both it was dangerous and would fuck them over (which honestly was all he owed them), and they both took that knowledge and went "I know better then the Wizard that knows about this shit, Imma do it any way"
The fact that Harry blames himself for either of their fates is nothing more then his Neurosis coming into play. They were told the stove was hot, it's nobodies fault but their own they decided to touch it.
No, Kim and Susan's changing are not on Harry. They were clever adult women who choose what to do. Harry did not force to do anything. Actions have consequences. Like Harry should have asked about the chance of Susan being pregnant but I agree he probably thought she could not conceive. I know I thought the same. I also know that if Susan was aware of the chance of conceiving, she should have taken measures.
But I also know that I always hated Maggie's existence and the fact that Susan did not tell Harry about her. I also hated the excess of love that Harry felt for a child he has never known but I understand what Redepisg says. I mean, for me that explains but not justifies Harry's behavior, just like Susan probably had reasons of her own to be that way. Only we don't know them because she is not the main character of the saga we love.
That said, in general I agree with Mira and forumghost. And again, I don't think Harry was selfish in his suicide (but he was selfish in doing all what he did in Changes, disregarding his own friends).
Yes Harry takes too much blame but taking no blame at all is also wrong. It comes too close to not caring.
The fact that Harry blames himself for either of their fates is nothing more then his Neurosis coming into play. They were told the stove was hot, it's nobodies fault but their own they decided to touch it.
Very true, but one lesson perhaps is to put a fence around the stove, but some are determined to climb it and touch the stove anyway. In the end both Kim and Susan were responsible for themselves and decided to ignore the reality of what Harry was telling them. Susan had read Dracula so decided that she knew how to protect herself over the warnings of a fully trained wizard who seriously wanted to pass on that party. Kim not only to lied to Harry about why she wanted the information, but decided as someone who didn't even have the grade of apprentice could handle something like a Loop. Just because you have taken a first aid course that doesn't qualify you to do brain surgery, you gotta know when to deffer to someone a lot more qualified that you are.If I want I can go to the nearest univerity bookstore and read for myself how difficult brain surgery is and what can go wrong. I probably give up after some reading but that in itself tells me something. Harry's secrecy is really not helping here.
And because of that secrecy Susan had no clue about how dangerous the whole situation was and how serious she had to take Harry's warning and how useless her precautions were.
We can not expect everyone to blindly trust Harry in everything even if it sounds so reasonable because we are in his head. Susan was not. She was a journalist. They go to warzones which is pretty stupid if you think about it.
If I want I can go to the nearest univerity bookstore and read for myself how difficult brain surgery is and what can go wrong. I probably give up after some reading but that in itself tells me something. Harry's secrecy is really not helping here.
So he probably could have done more to prevent her from going, she should not have seen the invitation at all.If I remember correctly she was there when he got it.. And honestly, what difference does that make? He can't be held responsible for the fact that she is a thief...
Interesting as it is, do we really need round #N of the "Harry was/was not responsible for Kim's/Susan's fate"?
Interesting as it is, do we really need round #N of the "Harry was/was not responsible for Kim's/Susan's fate"?C) She fired him and he left without saying goodbye.
As to the microfiction, I think the last sentence "never did say goodbye" must mean either:
A) Kincaid never speaks to Ivy in private again or
B) Kincaid actually cares that he never said goodbye to Harry
But then his tough 'I don't care' act is firmly broken further up in the story, so who knows, maybe it really is B.
And because of that secrecy Susan had no clue about how dangerous the whole situation was and how serious she had to take Harry's warning and how useless her precautions were.What more, specifically, should Harry have done? That may very well be why the invitation was delivered in front of her. To force Harry into the situation at the party.
...
she should not have seen the invitation at all.
Interesting as it is, do we really need round #N of the "Harry was/was not responsible for Kim's/Susan's fate"?
Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).
Some thoughts:Another one is how vanilla mortals react to the supernatural. A lot of them made bad decisions in the series based on wrong expectations based on not enough and unreliable information. Harry’s secrecy is one problem. Kim is very early in the series. If Harry had been a warden at that moment it would have been his duty to find out what was going on and he had enough warnings. As a normal wizard he should have called them but that was probably asking to much in his situation
One of the leitmotifs of the series is personal choice & living with the consequences of those actions. If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?The arguments that say Harry is responsible for their deaths are like saying Michael is responsible for Harry picking up Lasciel’s Coin in DM because Harry was never warned specifically about Shadows....
Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).He should have been really graphic and detailed about what red court vampires are.
@ArjanHe used his nature against him to let him make a decision he should not have to make. This is not voluntary, a scion like Kincaid has no or limited free will.
I think you’re really reaching there about Harry ‘abusing’ Kincaid in any sense of the word - Kincaid is not the type of person who puts up with abuse...
The main reason I imagine Harry used Kincaid instead of Lara for his suicide is likely because Kincaid is a paid assassin. He likely had no idea asking for this would create a rift between Ivy & Kincaid - I’m also sure that if Kincaid told Harry about Ivy being left completely alone if he took the assisted suicide contract, Harry would pick someone else.
Also the Archive has been known as the Oracle in the past - perhaps this is a calculated decision made by Ivy that will eventually benefit all.
@Avernite
C. Kincaid left without saying goodbye to Ivy because he doesn’t believe this is the end of their relationship
Another one is how vanilla mortals react to the supernatural. A lot of them made bad decisions in the series based on wrong expectations based on not enough and unreliable information. Harry’s secrecy is one problem. Kim is very early in the series. If Harry had been a warden at that moment it would have been his duty to find out what was going on and he had enough warnings. As a normal wizard he should have called them but that was probably asking to much in his situation
He should have been really graphic and detailed about what red court vampires are.
He used his nature against him to let him make a decision he should not have to make. This is not voluntary, a scion like Kincaid has no or limited free will.There is no evidence for that, in fact I believe Kincaid says in the opening lines that though he may not totally agree with Harry's reasoning, he understands and will do as requested. Sounds like his decision to me, also though Ivy wants him to aim for the chest instead of the head, it appears also to be his decision.
It is not as bad as Molly maybe but it is similar. Harry was too self centered to consider Kincaid as a person even if he knew the consequences, that is abuse.
If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?They seem to be dead. ;) Which in real terms seems to mean that they did, in fact, pay for their mistakes.
I agree with Harry lacking experience so understimating the two women was his fault. He did his best but he is not perfect. And he has been trained all his life in "knowledge is power" so secrecy is second nature to him. But I disagree with the comparison with children. That is patronizing with them and also give them a pass as if they were not to blame. But they are.We are all children sometimes. Does not stop us from being irritated when patronised.
Arjan, I don't think Kinkaid lacks free will. Not the books or the microfiction gave me that idea.He is a very powerfull scion and he already lived for a long time. He probably made his choices long ago.
HAD TO???? It was her decision a) to have the baby in the first place b) not to tell Harry that she was pregnat c) hid her from Harry. She was a complete b*** about that and Harry has no reason to think about that because he supposed that Susan would have told him. Besides, he probably thought that Susan was sterile since her turning. I suspect Susan thought the same herself because if that is not the case it was completely irresponsible for her not to take pills. If I had issues that could led me to loose my control, I would definitely take pills (unless I was planning to have a child with someone, of course)HAD TO?? :o A BIG AMEN to that sister!! It takes two to make a baby,so that responsibility was shared, but once she found out she was pregnant the rest of the choices beginning with not telling Harry are all on her. I totally agree that she was a real b---- about it, blaming him for the really bad choices she made, the frosting on the cake was her claim that the baby would have been in more danger if she had told him.. Really??? And exactly where did not telling Harry get her?
But, if you devalue Susan, then you devalue her sacrifice and Harry actions at Chichen Itza. The whole thing about the baby and Susan, was that Harry never thought past that moment when they were finished. Susan had to deal with it for nine months while on the run, under stress and pressure. Harry doesn't ever acknowledge that. It's like, you hid my child you bitch. And it wasn't that simple. IfNo? And she did hide his child from him, didn't she? Actually if you cannot acknowledge that Susan is solely responsible for her plight then you really do devalue her. She was an intelligent adult, she is the one who came on to Harry in the first place. They were attacked by a frog demon on their first date, "danger Wilma Robinson!" She was there and saw the results of the run in between Harry and MacFinn, "more danger Wilma Robinson!" Did she ever chose to end the relationship? No... How was it patronizing for Harry to tell her it was bad news to go to that party? If a front line war vet tells you not to go skipping in a mine field least you step on one and blow up, how much more information do you really need to know it wasn't a good idea? Just what information would you lack to know perhaps it wasn't a good thing to steal his running shoes and go for a skip around? Since she was half turned herself and her work was dealing with killing vamps, that her baby was in real danger if it was traced to her or worse yet, Harry, how hard was it to know that keeping it near and actually visiting it might not be a very good idea? Yes, in the end she redeemed herself with her sacrifice, but lets not pretend she is largely responsible for her own mess, lets not diminish her by pretending she wasn't.
HAD TO???? It was her decision a) to have the baby in the first place b) not to tell Harry that she was pregnat c) hid her from Harry. She was a complete b*** about that and Harry has no reason to think about that because he supposed that Susan would have told him. Besides, he probably thought that Susan was sterile since her turning. I suspect Susan thought the same herself because if that is not the case it was completely irresponsible for her not to take pills. If I had issues that could led me to loose my control, I would definitely take pills (unless I was planning to have a child with someone, of course)Evidently I'm not selling my point. So she's flawed. So what? Her making mistakes has nothing to do with Harry and his moral responsibility. Susan or Kim may have been idiots, but it doesn't remove Harry's responsibility.
I sometimes feel like I am talking in Spanish, so some of you cannot understand me.
IKim was Harry's apprentice, so Harry telling no should have been enough. Susan stole and forged an invitation. That is not Harry's fault. He did not screw up, they did nothing
About Maggie's conception. I'll do another post later
would have resulted in less death than nothing). He could have followed her and keep an eye on her if he was willing to ignore a murder investigation. In hindsight, that would have been the right decision, but I can pick lottery numbers correctly 100% of the time using hindsight.
I still don't see how Harry could have impressed the danger on Susan.
He could have cut all social ties so as not to be in the position to be taken advantage of by people like Susan and Kim. Both abused Harry's friendship. Susan stole the invitation. Kim leveraged Harry's poverty to guilt him into maybe giving her too much information. She lied repeatedly to him. If she was honest with him, the case would have been half solved by chapter three. How could Harry have known that she was planning on holding a loup garou when he didn't know that was a thing that existed?
The only thing Harry could have done given his limited knowledge at the time was to start by getting an explanation of where she found the symbol and what she planned on doing with it before telling her anything. That might have worked. What happened was that she lied to him at least three times, ignored him, took his warnings as insults, and stormed off.
Also, I'm not giving Kim and Susan a pass on anything. Both of them made their decisions and had to deal with the consequences. By the same token, Harry does not get a pass for withholding vital information from Kim and Susan. They made their decisions based on what they thought they knew. He doesn't get a pass for hiding the realities of the supernatural from Susan to the extent she thinks old horror movie tropes are enough to protect herself when she invites herself into a vampire's den. He screwed up. Repeatedly. He goes on and on in the early books about how normal people need to stay away from the supernatural and how dangerous it is, and also about power and responsibility. He has power, he has knowledge, by his own logic he had the responsibility to use it wisely and in these two cases in particular, failed to do so. Kim and Susan were already involved with the supernatural. Susan didn't understand the true extent of the danger, and Kim...the whole scene with Kim, in particular, struck me as someone who knows they need help trying the only way they can think of to get help from the one person who can help them, but who refuses to help almost by default. Harry knew she was doing something above her skill level, basically told her she was an idiot for even trying, and apparently expected her to follow his orders and give it up on the spot.
@morris: I don't see why you say Harry has any responsibility in these circumstances. If there was something he could have done, without the benefit of hindsight, then I'd say he has some responsibility.How did Susan find out about the Ball? How did she find out about the invitation and what it looked like? Susan was a reporter willing to sleep with him to get in close and Harry knew it. So what did he do? He slept with her. Read Chapter 8 in Grave Peril. Harry should have dated a stripper. Better sex and fewer questions. If a crappy book.
But I couldn’t just go and eat the dinner without giving Kim the information she wanted. It’s not that I’ve never welshed on a deal, but I’ve never done it with anyone human—and definitely not with someone who looked up to me.He should have ate Ramen.
Sometimes I hate having a conscience, and a stupidly thorough sense of honor.
“All right, all right,” I sighed. “Let me get the dinner and I’ll tell you what I know.”
How did Susan find out about the Ball? How did she find out about the invitation and what it looked like? Susan was a reporter willing to sleep with him to get in close and Harry knew it. So what did he do? He slept with her. Read Chapter 8 in Grave Peril. Harry should have dated a stripper. Better sex and fewer questions. If a crappy book.
In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed. He took her word for something and she lied. So your kids ask for a puppy. They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day. Pop quiz. Are they lying? Well of course they are. Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash. Harry sold out for a steak dinner.
“Power,” he said, waving a hand in an all-encompassing gesture. “All power is the same. Magic. Physical strength. Economic strength. Political strength. It all serves a single purpose—it gives its possessor a broader spectrum of choices. It creates alternative courses of action.”
“I guess,” I said. “So?”
“So,” he said. “You have more choices. Which means that you have much improved odds of making mistakes. You’re only human. Once in a while, you’re going to screw the pooch.”
“I don’t mind that,” I said. “When I’m the only one who pays for it.”
“But that isn’t in your control,” he said. “You cannot see all outcomes. You couldn’t have known that those creatures would go to the Carpenter house.”
I ground my teeth. “So? Daniel’s still hurt. Molly could be dead.”
“But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.”
@Mira
I'm answering a specific question. Could Harry have made different choices? Should he live like a Monk? I wouldn't if I was the fictional character. But that choice brings baggage. That you don't like the baggage doesn't give you a pass when things don't go the way you plan. Cutting Susan's throat at Chichen Itza is the sum of all the choices made by all the characters prior to the event. Father Forthill states it pretty succinctly.
“But that isn’t in your control,” he said. “You cannot see all outcomes. You couldn’t have known that those creatures would go to the Carpenter house.”
I ground my teeth. “So? Daniel’s still hurt. Molly could be dead.”
“But their condition was not yours to ordain,” Forthill said. “All power has its limits.”
You are quite understandable. :)
Totally agree, actually Kim wasn't Harry's apprentice, she was just someone with talent and a friend that he gave instruction to from time to time. Supposedly she was merely asking him an academic question, his mistake was trying to answer it as honestly as he could with in the rules of the White Council. By the time he realized her question wasn't merely academic he had already told her too much, but then he proceeded to tell her he wouldn't tell her more, why he couldn't and why it was so dangerous for someone with her level of training to even attempt it. All she did was get pissed and stomp out, not sure what he could have done, he got a bit side tracked himself shortly after that.
Totally agree Bad Alias, I'd only add that Susan had been using Harry repeatedly to get "scoops" to further her career, so no amount of impressing would have deterred her from trying to go to that party. No, Harry isn't perfect and he has made plenty of mistakes, but what happened to both Susan and Kim is mostly on them.
In terms of Kim Delaney he gives her a magical device, or whatever it was, and she uses it to get killed. He took her word for something and she lied. So your kids ask for a puppy. They promise that without fail, that if you let them have it, they will take care of it and walk it ten times a day. Pop quiz. Are they lying? Well of course they are. Their desire for the puppy leads them to write checks they can't cash. Harry sold out for a steak dinner.He should have ate Ramen.
Of course, Harry and Susan have supernatural complications. As I said, perhaps they did not know that she could conceive (but as Susan was the one working with St.whathisname people, she was in a better position to have asked the question. I know I would have asked that almost immediately. And, as I said, if I knew I am able to conceive and also have issues that could make me lost the control I would take pills, or have an intrauterine device or whatever could work in half-turned (unless I was actually planning to have a child with someone)
Harry isn't a walking penis with no higher functions, and Susan isn't a ambitious slut. There is no simpler way to say it. In a modern sense neither Harry or Susan are fit parents. Harry's antecedents are so paranoid that his own grandfather won't claim him outright. Zombie's assaulted his apartment and the only safety for his daughter lies in Michael's house being protected by Angels, and she still almost got machine gunned by Nic's boy army. Susan on the other hand was involved in a guerilla war with the Reds and was on an international terrorist watch list. And just might have eaten the child if she got too worked up. I'm failing to see what Harry's bitch is. And possibly had she known Michael she might have sent the baby to him UPS.
Susan on the other hand was involved in a guerilla war with the Reds and was on an international terrorist watch list.
Again, not kids. They are women.Hopefully we're arguing about a fictional literary character. And I've come to the conclusion that I have lost the point. ;)
And I am failing to see your point. I am not arguing with Harry but with you (and others).
Martin was on the watch list, not Susan.Yeah, but you know, birds of a feather.
The thing with Kim Delaney was that Harry warned her there was danger in what she was asking, but he didn't tell her why it was dangerous. Harry brings this up in later books; keeping knowledge from people to protect them versus giving them complete knowledge so they can make their own informed decisions. For whatever reasons, Kim Delaney wasn't honest with Harry. Perhaps she made a promise to McFinn to keep their conversations private. That sounds reasonable to me, but we will never know for sure.
One more thing to realize is that Kim was not an official apprentice. It's made pretty clear that Harry helped Kim to work with her talents but she's not calling Harry her master or teacher. In fact, Kim talks to Harry like they're almost equals; that Harry is just someone who knows more lore than she does. Perhaps Harry's original error was not to formalize his teaching relationship with Kim from the very beginning. In this way he could have given her a more complete picture of the supernatural world, but done so with specific rules and a structure to operate within. In Harry's defense, he had never been part of a normal wizard/apprentice program and there's no indication that Ebenezer ever told Harry that one day he might have to teach someone else how to use their magic.
Martin was on the watch list, not Susan.Yes, but Susan ran with Martin, most likely he knew about little Maggie and had a good idea who the father was... Lets not forget he was playing both sides and was the one who betrayed Susan.
And, as I said, if I knew I am able to conceive and also have issues that could make me lost the control I would take pills, or have an intrauterine device or whatever could work in half-turnedThe fear isn't that she is going to lose control and have unprotected sex. It's that she's going to lose control and eat someone. I don't think the specific circumstances that lead to Harry's apartment to become a sex dungeon were foreseeable.
The thing with Kim Delaney was that Harry warned her there was danger in what she was asking, but he didn't tell her why it was dangerous.But didn't he? He said she couldn't handle the spell at her current level and he would advise against it even if she could handle it because failure could kill a lot of people.
The fear isn't that she is going to lose control and have unprotected sex. It's that she's going to lose control and eat someone. I don't think the specific circumstances that lead to Harry's apartment to become a sex dungeon were foreseeable.
Of course those circumstances were not foreseeable, but don't forget the rampire venom. It could be a plausible scenario for her to loose control, have sex with someone and then kill him or turn him. One thing does not imply that she cannot do the other first. And if she plans to stay chaste...even more reason to use birth control, as denying her biological urges would make her more vulnerable to a sudden snap (I mean, if she looses control, it is more difficult to stop herself if she has not relieved her urges in months)
As to Kim, Harry didn't give her the greater circle. She copied it from MacFinn's. I'm pretty sure she would have tried it no matter what Harry did. If Harry has any responsibility for that one, I'd say it was instructing her at all, though we don't know enough about her talents to know what the risks of giving her no instruction at all were.
I call that foreseeable, since, well, he foresaw it.Chapter OneI never used to keep close track of the phases of the moon. So I didn’t know that it was one night shy of being full when a young woman sat down across from me in McAnally’s pub and asked me to tell her all about something that could get her killed.
“You don’t need to know that, either. Not for an academic interest. I don’t know what you’ve got in mind, Kim, but leave it alone. Forget it. Walk away, before you get hurt.”He saw it again.
“Save it,” I told her. “You’re sitting on a tiger cage, Kim.” I thumped a finger on the paper for emphasis. “And you wouldn’t need it if you weren’t planning on trying to stick a tiger in there.”And, surprise, he thinks she is lying.
“No,” I told her. “I’ve got the responsibility to help you make the right choice.”Ta Da!!!! He knew what his responsibility was.
It made me feel like crap to withhold information from her, but she had been playing with fire. I couldn’t let her do that. It was my responsibility to help protect her from such things, until she knew enough to realize how dangerous they were.He knew she was going to try something that could get her killed. He knew what his responsibility was, the one that he had taken up as a mentor. And despite his misgivings he let her walk away. Kim chose to do something that killed her. That doesn't relieve Harry of his responsibility as a mentor.
What exactly could he do in that situation though? Kim refused to listen to him when he explained that it was beyond her ability. She refused to explain the situation and ask for help despite knowing that Harry was probably the only guy both powerful and skilled enough to actually fix the thing.
Harry's options at that point were "tell her how to do a thing that will get her killed" "Warn her and hope she is smart enough to not touch hot things" and "Physically restrain her so that she can't do the thing"
Since assisted suicide and Kidnapping are not really reasonable choices, trying to warn her off was the most reasonable action.
Kim was frankly just an arrogant fool.
What exactly could he do in that situation though? Kim refused to listen to him when he explained that it was beyond her ability. She refused to explain the situation and ask for help despite knowing that Harry was probably the only guy both powerful and skilled enough to actually fix the thing.I have no idea what Harry could do. But Harry creates the dilemma when he chooses to help her before the events of the books. If he didn't want the difficulty of dealing with an arrogant fool then he never should have put himself in the position where he had to. Nobody held a gun on him. He made a choice. That it didn't work out or is hard doesn't change the fact that he took the responsibility. This is precisely the point of The Doom Of Damocles.
Harry's options at that point were "tell her how to do a thing that will get her killed" "Warn her and hope she is smart enough to not touch hot things" and "Physically restrain her so that she can't do the thing"
Since assisted suicide and Kidnapping are not really reasonable choices, trying to warn her off was the most reasonable action.
Kim was frankly just an arrogant fool.
On vampire venom. Early in Death Masks Harry cooks up a potion to counteract vampire venom. Unless contradicted by someone, that would be before Bondage playtime at Harry's place. Add to that a convenient rope to hold and ogre, and romance advice from a 14 year old on bondage games early on. In a tree house of all places. So to the question, was it foreseeable, I would have to put down money on the yes line.
I am not even sure it can be called "instructing.."I was talking about his previous interactions with her.
Jim essentially tells you what will happen when Harry ends up locked in with Susan. Molly tells you how, Harry tells you why when he mentions the potion. It's priceless. It's why I love the Dresden Files.But was it foreseeable that Susan would be pushed to her limits and locked up with Harry after he had been thoroughly tortured in a situation in which he could stop her from just killing him?
So far, it seems to me that the "Harry is responsible camp" position is that what he's responsible for is not being a hermit who hides himself away from everyone because there isn't a situation in which he can participate in the world and not have negative consequences. "Harry shouldn't have ever helped Kim." "Harry shouldn't have been in a relationship with Susan." I haven't seen any realistic suggestions of what Harry should have done once the dangerous situation became apparent. You can't always talk someone out of doing something dangerous and stupid, and that's not your fault.
I call that foreseeable, since, well, he foresaw it.
I've been reading the last posts (since my previous one) and I will do a summary
@Mira, I still don´t like the children metaphores.
That one is cheating, because that quote is from the files, written long after, with hindsight. The rest, yes, he predicted Kim wanted to do something dangerous and took the measures he thought would prevent that. Not telling how to do the dangerous thing. For taking one instant the oven comparison, Harry refused to tell her how to turn on the oven. It was a logical choice from his POV.
I won't say more about this because the others said it quite well :)
My last comment about rampire venom was not about the scene with Harry but about how Susan (if she knew she was able to bear a child) could have foreseen a moment when she loose control and have unprotected sex (and yes, there was a risk to kill the man. But she has been taking all the precautions she could, meditating and all that). Taking anticonception measures would have been logical.
My last comment about rampire venom was not about the scene with Harry but about how Susan (if she knew she was able to bear a child) could have foreseen a moment when she loose control and have unprotected sex (and yes, there was a risk to kill the man. But she has been taking all the precautions she could, meditating and all that). Taking anticonception measures would have been logical.
Close enough. For Susan, it's more he has no responsibility for her turning. My argument is more "what more could he have done?" You've convinced me that Harry should have broken up with Susan after the events of Fool Moon, so I'll admit he is somewhere between 1 and 5 percent responsible for her turning. The only thing I've seen suggested that is the least bit convincing as a means of preventing Kim's death is that Harry could have retreated from society, but I think that would have been much worse.
For Harry to be responsible for Kim's death he would have to have either withheld information from her that would allow her to succeed, given her information that caused her to go forward, or didn't do something that would convince her to stop. I leave the last one vague because I have no idea what should go there. I don't think he did the other two either.
In Kim's case his takeaway might be something like, you can't be a little bit pregnant. Either go all in or don't involve yourself at all. The whole metaphor of The Doom Of Damocles is saying that if you are going to do something like take someone under your wing, then do it like your success is defined by theirs. That you share their fate.Or you go back to your Father Forthill quote.. Harry didn't know what was going on in Kim's head. She insisted on lying to him about what she was doing,wouldn't tell him anything, almost as soon as she stomped off, Murphy showed up and wanted him because there had a been a gruesome supernatural murder. He felt he had done the right thing not telling Kim for a number of reasons, and it was the right thing. Bottom line, Kim was in over her head, the very fact that she had to go to Harry to explain how the circle was made says she was in over her head. Her deadly mistake was not admitting that fact to herself, her choices, to lie.
In Kim's case his takeaway might be something like, you can't be a little bit pregnant. Either go all in or don't involve yourself at all.But that's exactly what he's doing in his travels with the Paranet.
But that's exactly what he's doing in his travels with the Paranet.it's about obligation. Either teach Kim or don't teach her, but don't half teach her. This is Jim's theory of operation as demonstrated by the Doom Of Damocles.
it's about obligation. Either teach Kim or don't teach her, but don't half teach her. This is Jim's theory of operation as demonstrated by the Doom Of Damocles.
He never presented himself as her teacher. He knew her, they were friends, he answered a question from time to time. Even if he had, it doesn't absolve her from lying to him.. The lie was her choice, puts it ALL on her head. To disregard Harry's warnings, her choice, ALL on her head..She probably felt she had no choice. Harry is white council after all and they have a certain reputation. Imagine what could have happened if Harry had called the wardens in. Now imagine what Kim thought would happen if Harry called the wardens in. She tried to safe McFinn and that was her first loyalty.
She didn't know about the White Council. Harry was the only wizard she had ever heard of. Kind of goes to show how ignorant she is and how little Harry has shared with her. Billy knows about the war with the Red Court, the White Council, and the meeting by two books later.And yet she knew enough not to trust him and not enough to trust him. Harry's impression on other people differs from the impression we get from his head. I am sure that if Jim had written the story from her point of view more people would have sympathised with her.
She probably felt she had no choice. Harry is white council after all and they have a certain reputation. Imagine what could have happened if Harry had called the wardens in. Now imagine what Kim thought would happen if Harry called the wardens in. She tried to safe McFinn and that was her first loyalty.
She didn't know about the White Council. Harry was the only wizard she had ever heard of. Kind of goes to show how ignorant she is and how little Harry has shared with her. Billy knows about the war with the Red Court, the White Council, and the meeting by two books later.
And yet she knew enough not to trust him and not enough to trust him. Harry's impression on other people differs from the impression we get from his head. I am sure that if Jim had written the story from her point of view more people would have sympathised with her.
She didn't know about the White Council. Harry was the only wizard she had ever heard of. Kind of goes to show how ignorant she is and how little Harry has shared with her. Billy knows about the war with the Red Court, the White Council, and the meeting by two books later.She might have known more than Harry knew. She probably knew more.
Which is why it was really stupid for her to lie to Harry in the first place.. No, in over her head and too much ego to admit it.. Not sure what she promised MacFinn, most likely she lied to him as well about her skill level..Yeah she had no one to teach her. Young enough still to be arrogant and overconfident. A Molly prototype as it were.
Exactly, not to mention she seemed to be clueless about what a serious business it is to be a wizard.
Yeah she had no one to teach her. Young enough still to be arrogant and overconfident. A Molly prototype as it were.
Yeah, like the Korean kid. Do you not see the connection between Kim and the Korean kid? Harry pitches a fit at the start of PG over just this type of thing. Your starting place is the same as the Councils. she did it, she owns it. If she crosses the line, off with her head. Or too bad she's dead in this case. If instead of the circle, what if instead it had been mind magic? However as much fun as this has been we are just tilling the same soil and getting nowhere.No.
No.The argument has been that Harry wasn't Kim's teacher. Clear this up for me if you would. Was he or not?
Harry even tells us the difference in PG:
"That boy had noone to tell him the rules, to teach him"
Kim had. She just refused to listen.
No.
Harry even tells us the difference in PG:
"That boy had noone to tell him the rules, to teach him"
Kim had. She just refused to listen.
The argument has been that Harry wasn't Kim's teacher. Clear this up for me if you would. Was he or not?No, he was not, not in any formal way, not in any informal either... It is like having a medical doctor as a friend, one might ask him or her a medical question once in a while. Usually they rather not answer, but sometimes they do depending on the question. Yes, you are getting information from him or her, you might even learn something, but that doesn't make him or her your teacher. That is the kind of relationship Harry and Kim had. Anymore than I am being your teacher now, though I am answering your question.
A steak dinner was less than my usual rate, but she was pleasant company, and a sometime apprentice of mine.
Butcher, Jim. Fool Moon (The Dresden Files, Book 2) (p. 2). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I knew I have read that she was her apprentice! Obviously, nothing formal like Molly later, but there was some teacher-student relationship. Yes, that grey area is probably something to blame Harry. And I think he could have been a better teacher. But I still don't think he is responsible for Kim's death.
"You don't have the right to choose for me."Then he answers..
"No," I told her. "I've got the responsibility to help you make the right choice."Finishing with
"Look, Kim," I said. "Give it some time. When you're older, when you've had more experience. . ."Here is what says to me, she doesn't take him seriously never had..
"You aren't so much older than me," Kim said.
Then to speak specifically to Avernite's position, if he wasn't a teacher, then he taught her nothing. Teaching isn't going, oh, don't do that. At least teaching as I understand it.Reread the quote, please.
Reread the quote, please.I don't know why what the Korean kid thought about anything is relevant. Mira is arguing that Harry didn't teach Kim anything and you seem to be saying he was. Harry either was or he wasn't.
It says the Korean kid had noone to teach him. It doesn't say the Korean kid didn't (like to) get taught by the person who could've taught him.
I knew I have read that she was her apprentice! Obviously, nothing formal like Molly later, but there was some teacher-student relationship. Yes, that grey area is probably something to blame Harry. And I think he could have been a better teacher. But I still don't think he is responsible for Kim's death.Harry took the responsibility, no one forced it on him. He sold out for a steak dinner. Look, Jim wrote this, not me. He's explicit in the text about why Harry feels guilt. Responsibility and obligation are things you take up. You measure your behavior against your expectations of yourself. For Harry, the question is, did I do enough? The question is not, am I to blame, but can I use what I learned from my failure to improve how I will respond the next time.
I don't know why what the Korean kid thought about anything is relevant. Mira is arguing that Harry didn't teach Kim anything and you seem to be saying he was. Harry either was or he wasn't.No, I am saying Kim had someone who could teach her, unlike Korean kid.
No, I am saying Kim had someone who could teach her, unlike Korean kid.
Mira is arguing Kim didn't take the opportunity, but that is irrelevant to whether or not she had it.
For Korean kid, he died without a chance. Kim had a chance, she didn't take it, and died (and many with her).
No, I am saying Kim had someone who could teach her, unlike Korean kid.If he was in the role of teacher he was in the position to know how dangerous the information she wanted was. Here the text is clear. He knew she was lying and gave it to her anyway for a steak sandwich. Is that not what the text says?
Mira is arguing Kim didn't take the opportunity, but that is irrelevant to whether or not she had it.
For Korean kid, he died without a chance. Kim had a chance, she didn't take it, and died (and many with her).
If he was in the role of teacher he was in the position to know how dangerous the information she wanted was. Here the text is clear. He knew she was lying and gave it to her anyway for a steak sandwich. Is that not what the text says?Harry was in position to know, Harry knew, and Harry told Kim so.
If he was in the role of teacher he was in the position to know how dangerous the information she wanted was. Here the text is clear. He knew she was lying and gave it to her anyway for a steak sandwich. Is that not what the text says?
Harry was in position to know, Harry knew, and Harry told Kim so.
Kim chose not to listen.
Harry was in position to know, Harry knew, and Harry told Kim so.
Kim chose not to listen.
The bottom line was I was strapped for cash. I’d been eating ramen noodles and soup for too many weeks. The steaks Mac had prepared smelled like heaven, even from across the room. My belly protested again, growling its neolithic craving for charred meat.Now this is the text, and it speaks explicitly to the point. He gave her something that could kill her because he was hungry. If there is another way to read that I'm open to persuasion, but barring that, it is what it is. This is some of Jim's weakest work. It makes Harry look stupid. This is a college student perspective, which is what he was when he wrote this. If it was as dangerous as he states it, then he had no business giving it to her. If he doesn't then she can't hurt herself with it and it doesn't matter if she listens or not.
But I couldn’t just go and eat the dinner without giving Kim the information she wanted. It’s not that I’ve never welshed on a deal, but I’ve never done it with anyone human—and definitely not with someone who looked up to me.
I don't either, also just because he called her his sometime "apprentice" doesn't mean she was, or she really considered him her "master." Just consider her attitude when she didn't get her way. When Harry realizes that she wants to use this circle, he flat out tells her she doesn't have the training. Her retort is Then he answers..Finishing withHere is what says to me, she doesn't take him seriously never had..If that were the case Harry should have told her about the seven laws, the wardens and how many years he actually had training. It is like starting playing the violin in your twenties. Yes you can learn but the real virtuoso started when they were eight or younger.
He goes on to say she was one of a number of youth that he helped coach though their awakening talent.. Sounds to me like a warlock prevention program..
But back to Kim, perhaps Harry could have been a bit more tactful, but telling the truth doesn't always come out that way. Harry may have called her his sometime apprentice, but from the sound of that argument, she never respected or considered him her master or as a teacher. If she had, she might have heeded his warnings.That is because he never formalized it. You can not expect both parties to have the same expectations in a complicated relationship if you don't spell it out.
Harry feels guilty because he couldn't persuade her to make the right choice, that he feels is his responsibility. But it isn't, he tried to help her choose, but she refused to be helped.. She never respected Harry or saw him as her teacher, if she had, she never would have lied to him. She would have asked him to help her with MacFinn.And get MacFinn killed by the council? We look in Harry's head but Kim did not.
Now this is the text, and it speaks explicitly to the point. He gave her something that could kill her because he was hungry. If there is another way to read that I'm open to persuasion, but barring that, it is what it is. This is some of Jim's weakest work. It makes Harry look stupid. This is a college student perspective, which is what he was when he wrote this. If it was as dangerous as he states it, then he had no business giving it to her. If he doesn't then she can't hurt herself with it and it doesn't matter if she listens or not.
“Oh, come on, Harry,” she told me. “You’re Chicago’s only practicing professional wizard, and you’re the only one who can help me.” She leaned across the table toward me, her eyes intent. “I can’t find the references for all of these symbols. No one in local circles recognizes them either. You’re the only real wizard I’ve ever even heard of, much less know. I just want to know what these others are.”That by the way is the fourth paragraph Chapter One. Straight out of her mouth, I can't look this up and no one but you knows what they mean. If he don't tell her she can pout and get over it. And then multiple paragraphs involving Harry's stomach rumbling. I mean, come on, what does it take?
“No,” I told her. “You don’t want to know. You’re better off forgetting this circle and concentrating on something else.”
Again the text speaks for itself. Here's some more.That by the way is the fourth paragraph Chapter One. Straight out of her mouth, I can't look this up and no one but you knows what they mean. If he don't tell her she can pout and get over it. And then multiple paragraphs involving Harry's stomach rumbling. I mean, come on, what does it take?
"Look Harry," Kim said. "I'm not using this for anything serious, I promise. "I'm not trying to summoning or binding. It's an academic interest only. She leaned forward and put her hand over mine.Next page.
"You're sure?" I asked her. "This is just you trying to scratch and itch?"Harry is still reluctant to tell her anything.
"Cross my heart," she said, doing so.
I frowned. "I don't know. . ."Then she gets all charming, "Oh come on,Harry it's no big deal.
"You don't need to know that, either. Not for academic interest. I don't know what you got in mind, Kim but leave it alone. Forget it. Walk away, before you get hurt."He says further, realizing she has been lying to him all along...
"Save it," I told her. "You're sitting on a tiger cage, Kim." I thumped a finger on the paper for emphasis. "And you wouldn't need it if you weren't planning on trying to stick a tiger in there."
Again the text speaks for itself. Here's some more.That by the way is the fourth paragraph Chapter One. Straight out of her mouth, I can't look this up and no one but you knows what they mean. If he don't tell her she can pout and get over it. And then multiple paragraphs involving Harry's stomach rumbling. I mean, come on, what does it take?
Adult tip 101. Never go to the store when you are hungry. Adult tip 102. If an adult says cross my heart, smack them, and suggest that they find someone else to flummox. If you ignore those adult tips then obviously you shouldn't be let out without a leash. Back in the day when he wrote this Jim had a boy beard, today he has a man beard. We know this because it is grey, which is the direct result of all the fibs your kids tell you when they are trying to wheedle whatever it is they want out of you. ;)Smack them? Really? How adult.. As Forumghost said, Harry explained, he treated it like an academic exercise, when he realized that wasn't what she wanted he refused to tell her more..
@forumghostPerhaps a little more interpretation? You think if Harry told her how to empower them she would have survived? Harry flat out told her,
Obviously the story belies that interpretation. After Harry tells her what the three circles do, he refuses to tell her how to empower them. Which is what gets her killed. Until he gives them meaning they might as well be in Sanskrit. Since according to the quotes I posted she was clueless until Harry got finished, then in my estimation he owns it. Whatever you doubt she specifically says that he is the only one who knows, that she has access to. Again I quoted that.
"Your strength's got nothing to do with it." I said. "You don't have the training. You don't have the knowledge. I wouldn't expect a kid in grade school to sit down and figure out college calculus."
Perhaps a little more interpretation? You think if Harry told her how to empower them she would have survived? Harry flat out told her,No, I think if Harry had kept his yap shut and refused to talk at all that she might have survived. But you never know sometimes random works.
I don't think the smack will ever be needed. No, I think if Harry had kept his yap shut and refused to talk at all that she might have survived. But you never know sometimes random works.That or telling her more. She knew just enough to get killed. But she probably felt she had to try anyway because the alternative was to let MacFinn on a killing spree every month and she just wanted to get all information that could help her.
Only Harry helping her with the circle would have made a difference.And only her telling him what was really going on would have allowed Harry to help with the circle.
And only her telling him what was really going on would have allowed Harry to help with the circle.And only Harry giving her enough information to trust him and let her really understand her own limitations would have achieved that.
Now this is the text, and it speaks explicitly to the point. He gave her something that could kill her because he was hungry. If there is another way to read that I'm open to persuasion, but barring that, it is what it is. This is some of Jim's weakest work. It makes Harry look stupid. This is a college student perspective, which is what he was when he wrote this. If it was as dangerous as he states it, then he had no business giving it to her. If he doesn't then she can't hurt herself with it and it doesn't matter if she listens or not.Maybe Harry had no business giving it to her, but still, unlike Korean kid, Kim had a teacher available and chose not to listen.
Maybe Harry had no business giving it to her, but still, unlike Korean kid, Kim had a teacher available and chose not to listen.Kim did not break any law and she was not as crazy as the Korean kid.
I am perfectly willing to continue this other discussion if you acknowledge that, okay, Kim's situation isn't like Korean kid's, because for my original argument this isn't a relevant point.
Now then, on to "should Harry have known better" - yes, he should have, and does; Fool Moon's first page is Harry explicitly spelling out he knows better. Only after the twin pushes of Kim saying it is academic only (a lie) and the food (a bribe) does he do it, which is evidently sub-optimal, but it is when the lie is proven wrong that he backtracks again (a correlation to his having food is there too, I guess).Harry finished his plate I suppose. Early Harry is too shortsighted and egocentric.
So Harry's first instinct was 'give no information'; probably safe, but got lied past by Kim's choice.His fourth possible approach was lure her in with more information, make it clear to her why she is not up for the task (a little training should do the trick) and offer to help her.
His second approach was 'give limited information' which failed.
His third possible approach was 'give all information' which Harry thinks would inevitably fail too, because even with that information Kim couldn't do it (and since she was lying about the why, Harry couldn't do it for her - even if he had the ability, which I am not sure of).
@AverniteToo late for that when they had dinner. At that moment after the first wrong choices it was either fully commit or let her die.
The point about the Korean kid was a distraction and I shouldn't have used it. My apologies. Kim is responsible for her death. Harry's responsibility falls around not recognizing that his knowledge is much more dangerous than Calculus. Either commit fully when you choose to train someone, or stay in your tower.
@Avernite
The point about the Korean kid was a distraction and I shouldn't have used it. My apologies. Kim is responsible for her death. Harry's responsibility falls around not recognizing that his knowledge is much more dangerous than Calculus. Either commit fully when you choose to train someone, or stay in your tower.
His fourth possible approach was lure her in with more information, make it clear to her why she is not up for the task (a little training should do the trick) and offer to help her.I think he did make that clear, but he also lacked the knowledge that Kim had, the moon when it rose would be full and a horrible monster would be free to kill if it wasn't contained. She never tells him about that, talk about withholding important information, if anyone is guilty of that, it is Kim! Instead she plays on another weakness of Harry's. "You think I'm not strong enough to pull this off..." Kim is a woman, we know how messed up Harry is with them, in Storm Front Murphy is pissed because he still opens doors for women.. Harry is conflicted because on one hand he is old school gentleman, protective of women, on the other hand he knows a lot of strong women and respects them as such.. My point, this muddies the waters, another trick she tries to pull to get information from him. He doesn't fall for it and again tells her up front she isn't at the level yet to pull such a circle off. Then she stomps off before the argument or conversation goes any further.. Enter Murphy, emergency, no chance for Harry to ponder on what Kim was up to or to go after her to see what she was really up to..
... The thing is we know nothing about the relationship Harry and Kim had before this ... He gave her pointers from time to time, he called her his sometime apprentice, but it is doubtful their relationship was that close ...
... Agreed, Harry could have handled it better, but would it have changed the outcome? The person responsible is Kim because she lied.I think many of the people arguing this point fall into the same trap that Harry does: Harry does his guilt-fest thing, "It's all my fault." Some agree with Harry, in the end it IS his fault as the responsible party, the informed party, the mentor-role. Some disagree, pointing out that Kim was a full adult, responsible for herself, and clearly had ENOUGH information that she should have known what she proposed doing was stupid.
...the ones who sabotaged MacFinn's circle ...them too; and MacFinn (who wanted his convenient basement circle, instead of the inconvenient travel to isolation), and Tera West (who thought she could manage him), etc etc etc.
And only Harry giving her enough information to trust him and let her really understand her own limitations would have achieved that.Just giving her a lot of information wouldn't have made her trust Harry. Later in the series, Harry comments on Molly's overconfidence and how he was overconfident early in his training. Information alone isn't enough to curb overconfidence due to inexperience. Trust in/Respect for authority is the only thing that can temper that overconfidence. (I mean, also experience).
The "trap" is to put 100% of the blame on one person or the other: HIS fault and not hers, or HER fault and not his.How much blame would you put on Harry? There is a concept in the common law tradition that if someone is less than 50% at fault for an accident, and the other party is greater than 50% at fault, then the person who is greater than 50% at fault is legally responsible. Over the years, the concept has gotten more complicated in some jurisdictions. (Google "comparative liability" or "comparative negligence" and "contributory negligence" if interested in the concepts). I'm not saying that a 49/51 split is appropriate for moral responsibility, but at a certain point, if one's contribution is small enough, one is not responsible. Personally, I think Harry is at fault somewhere between epsilon and .1%.
...
But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands: he cannot be held blameless.
Either commit fully when you choose to train someone, or stay in your tower.I think this is a false dilemma, but I agree it's the closest thing to offering a solution. I think the only thing Harry could have done by Chapter 1 of Fool Moon to stop Kim was to physically stop her. He could have killed her, put a sleep spell on her, reported her to the wardens, put her in the hospital, kidnapper her, etc. Thinking on that, the most elegant solution would have been to agree to show her how to empower a greater circle by putting her in one.
In the end, in a "the buck stops here" way, Kim is the person who owns the responsibility for her own actions. But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands: he cannot be held blameless.
Just giving her a lot of information wouldn't have made her trust Harry. Later in the series, Harry comments on Molly's overconfidence and how he was overconfident early in his training. Information alone isn't enough to curb overconfidence due to inexperience. Trust in/Respect for authority is the only thing that can temper that overconfidence. (I mean, also experience).Yeah, no amount of information would have dissuade her from her mission, and yeah, she was way over confident that she could pull it off.
I think this is a false dilemma, but I agree it's the closest thing to offering a solution. I think the only thing Harry could have done by Chapter 1 of Fool Moon to stop Kim was to physically stop her. He could have killed her, put a sleep spell on her, reported her to the wardens, put her in the hospital, kidnapper her, etc. Thinking on that, the most elegant solution would have been to agree to show her how to empower a greater circle by putting her in one.
What critical information did Harry keep from her and how would it have changed the situation? Both have to be true before Harry can be at fault.
I don't think Harry, or anyone, takes on full responsibility for someone for giving them the basics to keep them from accidental harm. Kim was one of the many Harry "coached" through the initial stages of coming into their magic. What the story says about her leaves me unclear as to whether she was more than them or the same. It implies more, but states the same. There's a lot of information, almost all of it concerning the nature/extent of their relationship, that could change my analysis. But I'm not going to blame Harry for teaching someone to control their power enough to not "set the curtains on fire," as I think he says in one of the earlier books, for what that person does later with that control when he refuses to teach them combat magic, necromancy, or whatever.
On the point of limiting information causing harm, I can't fathom why the White Council doesn't publicize the existence of the Seven Laws and that they get enforced. Put enough information with it for practitioners to realize that whoever the source is knows what they're talking about. These so-called wise men really should be able to make it known without compromising the Council's security.
In the end, in a "the buck stops here" way, Kim is the person who owns the responsibility for her own actions. But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands: he cannot be held blameless.No, he did not, he was limited because she refused to give him information, critical information, i.e. about MacFinn, what he was, and what had happened to his circle.. If she had done that, it may have turned out totally different.
He wouldn't have been able to do that either because Murphy was on scene shortly after Kim left.My read of the text is that he was brooding for a while. It's not clear how much time passed.
They were in Mac's place, which also made it difficult.He's a wizard. Also, he could manipulate her into leaving with him. "This is not to be discussed in public."
My read of the text is that he was brooding for a while. It's not clear how much time passed.He's a wizard. Also, he could manipulate her into leaving with him. "This is not to be discussed in public."
To say nothing of what the White Council would think of a nonwizard toying with major summoning circles. The White Council didn't take chances with things like that. They just acted, decisively, and they weren't always about people's lives and safety when they did it.In other words he was afraid she could lose her head over this.
I had done the right thing---even if she had trusted me to provide answers for her, as I had in the past, when teaching her to contain and control her modest magical talents.
This is about Harry growing as a character. If he doesn't make mistakes than how does he grow? ...His mistake is the lesson he takes from these events. Kim didn't die because Harry gave too much or too little information. It's that he didn't garner the trust/respect he deserves. Later in the books, he does get more trust and respect, mostly.
In point of fact the WC does advertise the Laws of Magic. It comes up a couple of times. Charity and the group she is with is warned about it pre Michael. Bock's Books gets inspected.
He wouldn't have been able to do that either because Murphy was on scene shortly after Kim left.
My read of the text is that he was brooding for a while. It's not clear how much time passed.
They were in Mac's place, which also made it difficult.
Also, he could manipulate her into leaving with him. "This is not to be discussed in public."
Would that have changed anything?
In fact if he had convinced her to leave with him to show her how to perform the spell and then trapped her in a greater circle, she wouldn't have been able to perform the spell and might have realized she couldn't in the first place. Now if he finished his steak and potato, Murphy would have shown up, and he would have gone with her and told Kim to put a pin in it. Kim would have either overreacted and alerted Harry to the urgency of the situation or would have told him why it was so urgent. Murphy wouldn't have the drawing. Harry might not be overwhelmed by guilt. Harry might blame Murphy before she could blame him. That might convince her that he didn't do it. That he wasn't withholding information.
"Enjoy your mean, Harry," she said. "And thanks for nothing."If she didn't tell Harry why she needed the circle when he pressed her at Mac's, she wasn't going to be manipulated by him to go elsewhere to talk it over. There were witnesses so he couldn't physically stop her from leaving. This is a young woman who is convinced she is the hero of her own story. Hubris, "you think I am not strong enough to pull it off.." Over confident, she wasn't going to let Harry manipulate her to go anywhere to "show her how to build that circle." Nor would she easily be convinced that that wasn't the place to talk about it, partly because she was clueless about what she was asking.. I also think Murphy shows up quicker than you think, Kim stomps off on the bottom on one page and Murphy shows up on the top of the next and Harry is still nursing his ale.
I stood up as well, "Kim" I said. Wait a minute." But she ignored me. She stalked off toward the door her skirt swaying along with her long hair.
In the end, in a "the buck stops here" way, Kim is the person who owns the responsibility for her own actions. But her choices were limited by her information, and Harry intentionally kept critical information out of her hands: he cannot be held blameless.
The answer isThat would be a response to what I'm saying.no[yes],because[but] Harrydid[could] nottry[succeed in] to stop[ping] her from leaving.
Mira, I don't know if you don't understand what I've written or if you are just not engaging it in good faith. You're not addressing it. Your response was basically why would Harry physically stopping her do any good. I responded to that. I gave examples of how that would do good. Then you said "Well, that's not what happened in the book." Well, yeah. I'm trying to get at what Harry could have done differently that would have succeeded. If you can outline my argument in your own words in detail, I can see where the miscommunication is happening. Try not to use unclear antecedents.What I am trying to tell you is what you are suggesting is kidnapping. So no Harry couldn't just drag her out of Mac's place, there were witnesses to the argument. Nor since he had already began the explanation about the circle there in the pub, kind of hard to switch gears to "we cannot speak about this in public." Kim was a determined and pissed off woman, doubtful that she'd submit quietly to either. We were talking about the book, so that where my counter argument comes from.
That would be a response to what I'm saying.
Dina, now I feel like I'm speaking Spanish.
... please, let's disengage.
@Bad AliasI think what I would add is - Harry doesn't only learn from his mistakes, but also from his missed opportunities. Was Harry responsible for the kid in 'Warrior', that he saved from the car and abuse? No. But what he's steadily learning is that to be a true master, you can help others avoid the harshest consequences of their own mistakes. That doesn't make you responsible for their mistakes - but you are a better person for being able to do it.
This isn't really about apportioning blame. This is about Harry growing as a character. If he doesn't make mistakes than how does he grow? In Kim's case you can either read it as he misjudged her or that he was so wrapped up in that sandwich that he lost track of his obligation as teacher. But if you read it as he acted without error than exactly where do you go after that?
In point of fact the WC does advertise the Laws of Magic. It comes up a couple of times. Charity and the group she is with is warned about it pre Michael. Bock's Books gets inspected.
Am I misremembering, or isn't this (Kim/Harry & blame) one of the forum's regular temper-flaring topics? I think I've roasted in these flamewars before... :oIt is about flaming the arguments and not the person :)
I think what I would add is - Harry doesn't only learn from his mistakes, but also from his missed opportunities. Was Harry responsible for the kid in 'Warrior', that he saved from the car and abuse? No. But what he's steadily learning is that to be a true master, you can help others avoid the harshest consequences of their own mistakes. That doesn't make you responsible for their mistakes - but you are a better person for being able to do it.
Am I misremembering, or isn't this (Kim/Harry & blame) one of the forum's regular temper-flaring topics? I think I've roasted in these flamewars before... :o
I have several sore spots about the books (like Susan behavior or Maggie Jr. very existence).While I know what your reasons for hating Maggie are and don't really "get it," for some reason it tickles me to no end. I smile just about every time you bring it up. Susan's kind of a week character (plot wise) in the first three books, and I think, that has a lot to do with why Jim "put her on a bus" in Grave Peril.
I think what I would add is - Harry doesn't only learn from his mistakes, but also from his missed opportunities. Was Harry responsible for the kid in 'Warrior', that he saved from the car and abuse? No. But what he's steadily learning is that to be a true master, you can help others avoid the harshest consequences of their own mistakes. That doesn't make you responsible for their mistakes - but you are a better person for being able to do it.Yes. And that's kind of what I'm getting at with the question, and attempted answers, to what could he have done differently that would have been a net positive. If the answer is nothing, how can we say he is at fault? If the answer relies on hindsight, how can we say he is at fault? What degree of foresight do we require? I think blaming Harry for Kim and/or Susan* is basically taking up Ancient Mai's position in Summer Knight that, to mix my literary references, a wizard should know better.
While I know what your reasons for hating Maggie are and don't really "get it," for some reason it tickles me to no end. I smile just about every time you bring it up. Susan's kind of a week character (plot wise) in the first three books, and I think, that has a lot to do with why Jim "put her on a bus" in Grave Peril.
The sword of Damocles is frequently used in allusion to this tale, epitomizing the imminent and ever-present peril faced by those in positions of power. More generally, it is used to denote the sense of foreboding engendered by a precarious situation,[5] especially one in which the onset of tragedy is restrained only by a delicate trigger or chance.That's from the Wikipedia and the last is the salient point in this discussion I believe. And you either can see what I mean or you can't. I can't make it any clearer.
Knowing what Susan was, Harry's moral responsibility was to bring her all the way in to the magical world. Anybody with a lick of sense would expect their lover, who was a reporter, to do exactly what Susan did. I mean Lois Lane, need I elaborate? My father had a crude saying to cover it, I'll paraphrase. Never get laid where you get your paycheck.
If he had done that, then when told her that Vampires will eat you, he may have some reasonable morale defense to the claim that he(Harry) was free of responsibility for the outcome.
Back to Kincaid and what this story means. Ivy knows, to a fair degree of statistical certainty, what's going to happen when she acts. She cares for Kincaid. Kincaid is a bad person with a Darkness in him. We see that when Harry soulgazes him. Kincaid loves Ivy and is in denial. His denial of lofty principles leads him to take the job on Dresden.
Did Ivy fire Kincaid for his own good? Will facing consequences for his lack of principal be beneficial to him? I imagine Kincaid usually doesn't face moral consequences. He just deals with the practical. Ivy is one of the most powerful characters in the books. She likely often acts, unseen, by nudging things this way or that way. And for the inevitable objection from people not paying attention, her neutrality is a lie. She is not neutral.
:-Xlol.
Ooh, poor Kirby. I won't say more because I don't want to lit the fire of a new discussion here :):'(
What's the finish line with the Doom of Damocles? Is it when the apprentice becomes a full wizard?
...
What has Harry agreed to and what level of responsibility comes with that? For example, if Harry agrees to teach Kim enough to control her powers so she doesn't accidentally cause harm, what is he responsible for? Would it be a different level of responsibility than if he agreed to teach her some stuff about magic?
... What has Harry agreed to and what level of responsibility comes with that? For example, if Harry agrees to teach Kim enough to control her powers so she doesn't accidentally cause harm, what is he responsible for? Would it be a different level of responsibility than if he agreed to teach her some stuff about magic?
I don't think the sword of Damocles applies to the Kim situation...Agreed -- Kim wasn't under the Doom (so neither was Harry) but simply because Kim wasn't a White Council wizard (she was too weak a talent for the WC). The "Doom" is a privilege, so to speak. Minor sorcerors &c just get killed for warlock'ery. Harry would have been obligated to kill her (or report her up the chain) if he'd been greycloaking then, but before the cloak he was an "ordinary" WC member, and (afaik) under no special obligations (other than NOT to aid/assist with warlock'ery).
I recall (but cannot cite, sorry) that Eb could have escaped the Doom by just killing Harry outright: "He was just too far gone, I tried but I couldn't fix him."He said he had orders to kill Harry if he showed the least bit disobedience or some such thing. I'm fairly certain it was in Blood Rites in the chapter in which he's revealed as the Blackstaff, or more precisely, the chapter in which what the Blackstaff is.
You took my metaphor and broke it. :'(
Depends... Harry was under the Doom until the Council lifted it. He had been considered a full wizard (albeit a disreputable, kitty-literbox'es-his-dress-robes sort of full wizard).
But the point is I was responding to Morris's comment that the Doom is simply a metaphor for the responsibility one has when they accept a student. I was just asking what's the scope of that responsibility.
I suspect that if Molly had gone warlock, Harry could have escaped execution by turning her in (with the recommendation to kill, instead of clemency); or maybe if he killed her himself.
I don't think Harry could escape responsibility by killing Molly. That's only partially because Harry didn't have any such orders, but mostly because it's never ever brought up. I don't think the Doom was applied to Eb. Not once does Harry even hint that Eb was under the Doom. I'm uncertain if a wizard could take responsibility for a warlock who wasn't a wizard level talent.I don't think Eb was under the Doom either, but not because Harry was already considered a full wizard, but because he was the Blackstaff and under orders to carry out Harry's execution if he stepped out of line.
Kim wasn't under the Doomhas mangled my metaphor. But don't worry about it, metaphor's were made to be abused.
@Morris: What's a meta for? ???A product of my failed education and cabin fever.
Any sentence that has {SNIP} has mangled my metaphor.
More seriously, ask yourself why he chose to call it The Doom of Damocles?
The "Doom of Damocles" isn't even slightly metaphorical. It's a specific legal doctrine within the White Council.
I see!You can do as you wish with my metaphor, I no longer cherish it. And by he I meant Jim Butcher.
May I abuse it further, then?
The Damocles reference makes sense without any reference to a penalty to the Master. Harry did a bad thing, and the results are always hanging over his head.
I cannot find it at the moment, but the responsibility for the apprentice under the Doom, if the apprentice back slides goes on the master as well, so it is death for both.. That is one reason why there is a shortage of wizards willing to step up for kids that can be salvaged, since if left unchecked they go full warlock, easier to lop off their heads instead.This in no way responds to the point I'm making.
Sword of DamoclesHere the Wikipedia version of the story, complete. Regardless of it's meaning in context, the story itself is my metaphor. Kim was never in a position to correctly gauge her danger. She was ignorant of the risk. She is Damocles, with Harry as Dionysius. The only person who understood was Harry. Anyway the idea has been lost through too many explanations by me. Under the spoiler is a short explanation of what is in my mind as I read.
According to the story, Damocles was pandering to Dionysius, his king, and exclaimed to him that Dionysius was truly fortunate as a great man of power and authority, surrounded by magnificence. In response, Dionysius offered to switch places with Damocles for one day so that Damocles could taste that very fortune firsthand. Damocles quickly and eagerly accepted the king's proposal. Damocles sat down in the king's throne surrounded by every luxury, but Dionysius, who had made many enemies during his reign, arranged that a huge sword should hang above the throne, held at the pommel only by a single hair of a horse's tail to evoke the sense of what it is like to be king: though having much fortune, always having to watch in fear and anxiety against dangers that might try to overtake him. Damocles finally begged the king that he be allowed to depart because he no longer wanted to be so fortunate, realizing that with great fortune and power comes also great danger.[1][2]
King Dionysius effectively conveyed the sense of constant fear in which a person with great power may live. Dionysius committed many cruelties in his rise to power, such that he could never go on to rule justly because that would make him vulnerable to his enemies. Cicero used this story as the last in a series of contrasting examples for reaching the conclusion towards which he had been moving in his fifth Disputation, in which the theme is that having virtue is sufficient for living a happy life.[3][4]
I cannot find it at the moment, but the responsibility for the apprentice under the Doom, if the apprentice back slides goes on the master as well, so it is death for both.. That is one reason why there is a shortage of wizards willing to step up for kids that can be salvaged, since if left unchecked they go full warlock, easier to lop off their heads instead.That's exactly the salient point though - IS that how it is, or is that only how it is if the Council doesn't trust the wizard-master in question to do the chopping?
@Bad AliasWhen I was researching wizard's towers, best I could tell is that they are a pretty recent fantasy trope. I wouldn't go so far as always, but one of the main points of a wizard's tower is isolation. The wizard is usually alone. Most of the time when the wizard isn't alone, the company is more familiar than companion. Think Bob and house elves from Harry Potter as examples of this kind of example. Sometimes it's the apprentice. Sometimes it's one or a few regular old human servants.
The one certain thing that is true about wizard towers is that the wizard is always alone.
I ask what specifically could Harry have done differently that would have changed things for the better and what would likely happen if he didn't act at all? In the examples Harry provides, it's usually not much and something worse.That isn't the point. In the real world you might never know since you can't rerun events. But if he never involves himself with Kim, this may have been the lesser evil. It's a variable he can control. What she may lose by Harry not helping her at all, may be less than what she lost with the help Harry gave her.
Who would that be. Kim and Molly? And who else?
Kim was one of several people I had coached through the difficult period surrounding the discovery of their innate magical talents.
Butcher, Jim. Fool Moon (The Dresden Files, Book 2) (p. 9). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
But if he didn't involve himself with the various people he coached through getting their powers, some of them could have ended up like the Korean kid resulting in way more suffering than would have been avoided.
But if he didn't involve himself with the various people he coached through getting their powers, some of them could have ended up like the Korean kid resulting in way more suffering than would have been avoided.Exactly how would you know that? Harry can't see the future, and no one can know the results of our interactions. Anymore than I can Know that Kim would have survived had Harry not explained that drawing. But she did die.
Exactly how would you know that? Harry can't see the future, and no one can know the results of our interactions. Anymore than I can Know that Kim would have survived had Harry not explained that drawing. But she did die.
There is no data to derive any odds. And I suppose that you could call Kim a zealot. But given that Jim just sketches her it's really hard to say. She strikes me as someone who is committed and who wears her heart on her sleeve. How we color that sketch may say more about us then the sketch.
The one book I don't have in text form. But I listened to it. I stand by my point.Which point? It's not like you just have one.
Exactly how would you know that? Harry can't see the future, and no one can know the results of our interactions. Anymore than I can Know that Kim would have survived had Harry not explained that drawing. But she did die.I know that it could happen based on what Harry tells us in Proven Guilty about all the warlocks sprouting up.
I suppose that you could call Kim a zealot.The risk isn't that Kim would be a warlock. The risk is that one, or more, of the people he's coached would go warlock but for his coaching.
Dresden is one among about seven billion people on the planet. If warlocks are cropping up like mushrooms, then any choice Dresden makes in that regard will be buried in the statistical noise. Even in Chicago.
Say Dresden has helped ten and lost one of those, Kim. That means his success rate is 90 percent. Having said that, since you don't know what happens after Dresden interacted with them, it's possible that some number of the ones he helped fell out anyway. You don't know what you don't know.
We do however know what happened in Kim's case. She died. If his point was to help Kim, the by any standard you might want to use, the outcome was less than optimal. It doesn't matter if Kim was an effing shit show. If the point was to help her with her magic, then it was a fail. She wasn't helped.
1] How many do you think with in that environmental group had any clue about what MacFinn was? ...
2] If you had a clue as to what kind of damage it could do to the organization, if word got out publicity wise. If the press found out about MacFinn, then what? Just another thought to think about. Did Kim know what Harry's girl friend did for a living? Further did she know what paper Susan worked for? If she did, there is your motive for withholding vital information from Harry and outright lying to him ...
3] In the face of all the warnings, not getting all the information to build the circle, still keeping his secret and attempting something she knew she couldn't handle at the cost of your own life ...
Zealots do not die trying. They know they will win, they have god on their side after all. They die knowing they did the right thing, they know their side will ultimately win etc.
Maybe the jihadist "dying in the right cause guarantees heaven" mindset will intentionally "die trying" (with no expectation of success).
I don't think we have ANY evidence that Kim was in that sort of mindset.I think she just saw no alternative to trying. She probably considered telling Harry more but deemed it too dangerous.
Instead, I think she seriously hoped she COULD do it. She knew the consequences of failure -- not just that she might die, personally; but that her beloved cause would be WORSE OFF. Consequently, she would have been expecting to succeed... or at least, seeing this course as the best odds of success.
Zealots do not die trying. They know they will win, they have god on their side after all. They die knowing they did the right thing, they know their side will ultimately win etc.I think she just saw no alternative to trying. She probably considered telling Harry more but deemed it too dangerous.
Which was her fatal error, that, and being over confident in her own modest abilities.We know Harry a lot better than she did.
We know Harry a lot better than she did.
That is also true, which is part of my argument that though he called her his sometime apprentice, that wasn't the kind of relationship they had because by Harry's own estimate, her talents were modest at best, ergo she wouldn't be White Council material, i.e. a future full wizard. So if he told her anything about the White Council, it would be little because there is a lot he was not allowed to say. And if she really had the kind of close relationship a master/apprentice is, she should have known she could have trusted Harry to help, especially in this case.She had enough power to break the laws of magic so not telling her about them and in extension about the white council that maintains them was a grave and dangerous neglect. "She should have known better" is not really an argument we can use here.
She had enough power to break the laws of magic ...
... so not telling her about them and in extension about the white council that maintains them was a grave and dangerous neglect...
Did our interior-monologue POV of Harry's thoughts reveal that he hadn't told her about the WC/Laws/Wardens? If so, I'm gonna have to call THAT an instance of EIW -- or even Jim's oversight -- rather than a sign of Harry's neglect.It's strongly implied. Harry thinks about how the Wardens would kill her for messing around with the circle, I assume because it's related to summoning Outsiders. He doesn't mention this as a reason for not messing with it. In the early books, the WC's existence is very hush hush. This plot point is pretty much dropped later on. Additionally, Kim mentions Harry's the only wizard she's ever heard of.
It's strongly implied. Harry thinks about how the Wardens would kill her for messing around with the circle, I assume because it's related to summoning Outsiders. He doesn't mention this as a reason for not messing with it. In the early books, the WC's existence is very hush hush. This plot point is pretty much dropped later on. Additionally, Kim mentions Harry's the only wizard she's ever heard of.Yeah, what he does say is that type of circle was used for summoning really bad assed demons. Which given Kim's level of both knowledge and skill would be totally irresponsible, and cost her her head to boot even if she did pull it off.
It's strongly implied. Harry thinks about how the Wardens would kill her for messing around with the circle ...
Yeah, what he does say is that type of circle was used for summoning really bad assed demons ...
... I'm a strong advocate of the WC publicizing the existence of the Laws and the fact that consequences will be inbound in a credible manner. All they really need to do is get it on the internet next some basic principles of magic like circles.
Not gonna happen 'til the Masquerade drops.
Of course, the Paranet is pretty darned open. Not much privacy/security wonkery there, AFAIK. Like the internet itself, the goal is connectivity and information-sharing, not privacy. They've GOT to be reaching out & recruiting.
I think that -- below the level Harry or the White Council (or many other members of the supernatural community) can see it -- the Masquerade ***IS*** dropping. It's happening "now" in the series, it's mid-drop.
To be fair, I get half a dozen witchy posts on my facebook feed per week. Doesn't make me think magic exists.
I never used to keep close track of the phases of the moon. So I didn’t know that it was one night shy of being full when a young woman sat down across from me in McAnally’s pub and asked me to tell her all about something that could get her killed.
“No,” I said. “Absolutely not.” I folded the piece of paper, with its drawings of three concentric rings of spidery symbols, and slid it back over the polished oak-wood table.
To be fair, I get half a dozen witchy posts on my facebook feed per week. Doesn't make me think magic exists.You are a minority depending on what you consider magic.
TYbothVM!You're welcome. I kinda agree with EIW. It can also be explained, not just hand waived, with Harry having such a bad experience with the Council coloring his experience and then slowly change his mind as he has to interact with more of the Council than Morgan and more often as well. It you recall, the other warden in Summer Knight thought Morgan was being overzealous with Harry when Harry was trying to gain entry to the meeting dressed in a bathrobe. Harry never gives the guy or the wardens generally any credit for that, but we surely can.
So, it didn't even cross his mind.
Gotta call that EIW.
Not gonna happen 'til the Masquerade drops.Yeah. I think Harry has largely sidestepped the Council by founding the Paranet. Even if it wasn't his intention of it going as widespread as it did.
Of course, the Paranet is pretty darned open.
To be fair, I get half a dozen witchy posts on my facebook feed per week. Doesn't make me think magic exists.Are you talking about the Masquerade falling or my idea of publishing the Laws of Magic?
If it was something that would get her killed by the wardens why tell her anything at all? And I mean anything.Because she was already asking questions about it meaning she was already messing with something that could get her killed. "Hey, stop messing with that! It's dangerous," is something.
Because she was already asking questions about it meaning she was already messing with something that could get her killed. "Hey, stop messing with that! It's dangerous," is something.Then at least tell her what can get her killed. Tell her about the laws of magic and why to take them seriously.
Then at least tell her what can get her killed.He did.
Tell her about the laws of magic and why to take them seriously.I chalk Harry not doing that up to EIW like g33k said. I just think it's largely justifiable EIW.
Wardens do it at least sometimes so it is not absolutely forbidden to do so.
Sorry, what is EIW?I had to look it up. Something like early installment weirdness. or something to that effect.
I had to look it up. Something like early installment weirdness. or something to that effect.
Ah, meaning...Jim was still making the rules and the world?
Like the weird uniforms and Troi's telepathy in "Encounter at Far Point"?Great examples. Season One of TNG is basically figuring out how to not to be TOS. It's kind of hard for me to watch.
he could/should have said "something strong enough to need this circle is too strong for you to contain it, and it will just break the circle and kill you," but he didn't say that.Didn't he? He says she can't do the circle. He says if she could and she messed it up, she "could get a lot of people hurt."
Great examples. Season One of TNG is basically figuring out how to not to be TOS. It's kind of hard for me to watch.Even when you are right, I still like many of those first season episodes. Besides, they are the only ones with Tasha.
Say I have a lot of knowledge I am doing mysterious and secretive about and clearly gives me status and power and potentially wealth. Knowledge you need.I'll have to reread the section and think on that. I don't think I agree, but this is a new idea.
Then I say you you can’t have it because it is dangerous. Does that always work with people?
Say I have a lot of knowledge I am doing mysterious and secretive about and clearly gives me status and power and potentially wealth. Knowledge you need to save and protect people.Thinking about this a little more, it was truly miscommunication. Kim thought she had to lie about what she needed the circle for and about MacFinn. For Harry, and this is constant all through the series, circles are for summoning and the circle kept them in. The type of circle Kim wanted kept in the most dangerous demons and beings, he had no idea that in this case the monster was already loose. He thought by not telling her, he was preventing her from summoning something that no way in hell she could handle. He was right there, there was no way in hell she could handle a Loop, she had no business trying. He tried very hard to tell her that, but she still wouldn't listen. The important information Harry didn't have was that the horrific monster was already loose and needed
Then I say you you can’t have it because it is dangerous. Does that always work with people?
Yes if Harry had known the circle was not for summoning but for containing something already here he would have reacted differently. He made a wrong assumption.
I think it also made him regard her more negatively which in turn made us regard her more negatively because we see everything through his eyes.
The question is, was that information enough to get her killed.I think it a bit of a moot point actually. He refused to tell her everything, she knew it and went back anyway and got killed. If he told her everything, and he was right about her level of talent, skill, and experience, she still would have failed and been killed.
It isn't clear what Harry knew. But Kim knew something about circles before she got there and had some vague idea in her mind about it, I suppose.
She was young and idealistic. Which is a bad combo. Sometimes it works and other times it doesn't. I can certainly cite real world examples. Mostly you get over it in your 30's. And then later in life you forget how it was when there were no perceived barriers to what was possible and you had not yet learned you could be hurt.
Thinking about this a little more, it was truly miscommunication. Kim thought she had to lie about what she needed the circle for and about MacFinn. For Harry, and this is constant all through the series, circles are for summoning and the circle kept them in. The type of circle Kim wanted kept in the most dangerous demons and beings, he had no idea that in this case the monster was already loose. He thought by not telling her, he was preventing her from summoning something that no way in hell she could handle. He was right there, there was no way in hell she could handle a Loop, she had no business trying. He tried very hard to tell her that, but she still wouldn't listen. The important information Harry didn't have was that the horrific monster was already loose and needed
his only method of protecting the world safe fixed.
Yes if Harry had known the circle was not for summoning but for containing something already here he would have reacted differently. He made a wrong assumption.
I think it also made him regard her more negatively which in turn made us regard her more negatively because we see everything through his eyes.
Kim is dead, so whatever her sins in Harry's world she paid the price. Ditto for Susan. And Harry bears no responsibility for either of those deaths. There is nothing about his behavior in either case to improve. Would this be a cogent summation?Yeesh. I thought the Kincaid microfiction was an interesting topic, then I got swamped. May as well get this out of the way.
Yep. Also that kid from Zoo Day.Austin, IIRC. And since he seemed to have more power than some (his summoning ability may be on a par with Molly's talent for veils and illusions), I'm wondering if Harry will have a new full time apprentice as of Peace Talks.
You are a minority depending on what you consider magic.Hah! Pardon me while I digress. I was speaking with an author who had written an urban fantasy series that seemed to include...more than its fair share of truth, based on my experiences. I mentioned what I thought was too close to "real", and the author was silent for a minute.
As in other threads, other subjects here, people seem to see a topic as black and white. It's not a binary solution set. Is Kim largely responsible for her own death? Yes. Is Harry partially responsible for Kim's death? Yes.
D. The Archive/Ivy is neutral. Because we're talking "neutral" in terms of the Accords. She doesn't make alliances, or officially help people. Come to think of it, the only time we've seen her acting against anyone is when someone has violated those Accords. At which point they are dealt with. With extreme prejudice.
The Archive was built to be neutral, as in magically limited.
Yes, the moral of the story is one shouldn't jump to conclusions, that was Harry's error.
First off, on the assumption Lasciel is the shadow, she would have been broken out. Which the church, knowing that most coins are from their storage, probably figured out and did paperwork on. Just knowing she was out could put ivy on alert. Also, how did lasciel get out of her coin? To release a fallen angel into the world, when it appears they are required to stay in the coin, would certainly require heavy magic, or a ritual that could send off warnings from anything from purchasing materials to communicating and planning among the denarians, or the spies that cant be in direct contact like in the church.
There's a WoJ that being in the coins limits the influence of the Fallen in them to Earth, which I had taken to mean that the Fallen in the coins absolutely can project themselves out of them, it's just against the rules. If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any need for a ritual.
I don't think Harry jumped to conclusions. Regardless of the fact that he was lied to, he did ask Kim repeatedly why she needed to know about the circle, and asking seems like the opposite of jumping to conclusions.Yes, he repeatedly asked Kim why she needed to know, she lied totally including excluding the most important detail, the monster was already out and about. Yes, Harry did come to a very rational conclusion because the only reason he knew for wanting to make that circle was for summoning and keeping in the worst and most powerful monsters and demons, something Kim wasn't even close to pulling off even if he had told her everything. He did the right thing given the information she gave him, he actually thought at the time he was protecting her.
At the end of White Night Harry dug up the coin and had Father Forthill pick it up. If he hadn't transferred it to where ever the Church keeps them and it was in a safe in his office, the influence might still be there.
Ordinarily it wouldn't be save for Harry's former connection with it.
Remember also when Harry played the guitar at the end, he still heard a voice, so Lash wasn't completely gone.
Why wouldn't he transfer it to where it's supposed to go?
...Are you claiming that Father Forthill wants Harry to pick up Lasciel's coin? Because otherwise I don't get this sentence at all.
Yes, and we were told what that was in Skin Game, so it's irrelevant here.
You have Ursiel in your church. I have Lasciel and this sweet girl right here, who hasn't touched any Coin. Give me Ursiel, and I'll give you the girl, un-touched. You know the coins are MEANT to be in circulation anyhow, you can't keep Ursiel for long, it isn't POSSIBLE. What you CAN do, is save this girl, right now.
You have 90 seconds.
It's fairly solid canon at this point that the Denarians have infiltrated the parts of the Church responsible for tracking the Coins, supporting the Knights, etc. I think the Church ALWAYS presumes there's one or two moles, but Michael and others have remarked in recent books that too many coins have gotten away from Church control too quickly, and an unusal degree of infiltration is implied.
It has been WAG'ed that Fr. Forthill might be one of the ones who sometimes returns a coin to them.
He doesn't even have to be "corrupted" or working for them. Imagine: Nic shows up, he has an innocent in his grasp, and he says to Forthill,
Yes, but if Father Forthill returned Lasciel's coin to Nic when Harry gave it to him just after the end of White Night, then you would expect Nic to know that something had changed for Harry when he spoke to Harry in Small Favor, which he manifestly didn't.
And all this assumes that Harry gave the coin to Father Forthill instead of Michael, which we don't know, and also ignores that Michael would almost certainly "coincidentally" stumble onto something alerting him if it was Father Forthill.
Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over so that he could pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.
Why wouldn't he transfer it to where it's supposed to go?
...Are you claiming that Father Forthill wants Harry to pick up Lasciel's coin? Because otherwise I don't get this sentence at all.No, he doesn't want Harry to pick up the coin.
Yes, and we were told what that was in Skin Game, so it's irrelevant here.Actually is was White Night page 398
I heard a very, very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.That is when he called Father Forthill to come and get the coin as soon as he can get it dug up
Everything I can, dear host.
Actually is was White Night page 398
Harry just played the guitar beautifully..
You do remember Skin Game, right? There was the whole thing where Harry was pregnant with his and Lash's kid, and it was said explicitly that that was why he could still play the guitar.
Oh yes, but do you remember how the stage was set in White Night? Context matters..
He still heard the voice in White Night, which scared him enough to get rid of the coin.. He began to have severe headaches from that point on, you do remember in Turn Coat when Morgan showed up Harry was having a migraine. Um since Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night that we know now he was pregnant with their child. These are facts, and facts matter.. The question is how Lasciel if she was trapped in the coin as of Changes, could still influence a wounded Harry in Father Forthill's office. I explained a theory that I have about how it came about, which I think is quite logical. Oh yes, Uriel in Ghost Story confirmed that it was Lasciel who managed to push Harry over the edge into being suicidal. So how could that be? So had Hannah Asher at that point already taken up the coin ? If she had, did Nic via Andriel find out that Harry was wounded in Father Forthill's office, let Hannah know and in turn she enabled Lasciel to do her thing? That kind of
works.. Or another is the coin was still under lock and key in Father Forthill's office at the time of Changes because for reasons already stated. Lasciel clearly wants revenge, Harry is vulnerable for the reasons already stated, it is very possible that not all lines of communication were severed with the coin when Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night. That is what scared him enough to dig it up and hand it over to Father Forthill at the end of White Night. Harry even boasts to Mab in Changes that he could still call up Lasciel's coin as an alternative to becoming her Knight. No one is sure if that was just bravado on his part to get a better deal or not, but he did say it. If it was true, damn right there is enough connection for Lasciel to show up and mess with Harry's already enormous guilt complex. Context matters, setting the stage matters for what is to come, so hell yeah, what happened back in White Night set the stage for what happened in Changes, and what happened there set the stage for Skin Game..
What is your theory?
I think the problem here is that you've forgotten how you used evidence in your own argument. Your claim was that Harry being able to play the guitar at the end of White Night was evidence of a remaining connection with Lasciel--and I'm saying that you're wrong, and I know you're wrong because it was said outright in Skin Game that Harry could still play the guitar because he of Bonnie, which means that it isn't evidence that Lasciel could still influence Harry.
Quote
Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules.
If Lasciel still had a connection to Harry which formed as a result of him touching her coin, and that connection was how she spoke to him, then it wouldn't be against the rules because Harry made the free-willed choice to touch the coin and form the connection. Since we know that what she did was against the rules, we know that she didn't use such a connection.Oh? Um what was against the rules is Lasciel "lied" to directly influence Harry to suicide.. That unbalanced the scales.. That is in Ghost Story. How do you know she didn't use her former connection to get close? What is your evidence? And no, a prisoner of a coin cannot just reach out and touch someone or anyone without invitation, that is why the Knights are so careful not to touch, because even accidentally can be seen as an implied invite. It may be a bit of a subtle point Uriel was trying to make for some, but it wasn't the reaching out and touching that Lasciel did that was against the rules, it was the lying that influenced Harry's free will, that broke the rules... That is why Uriel could step in and do a little influencing on his own, i.e. the seven words..
You know? Evidence please and what is your theory?
Really? Evidence please, what is your theory?
What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Jim: Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
Oh? Um what was against the rules is Lasciel "lied" to directly influence Harry to suicide.. That unbalanced the scales.. That is in Ghost Story.
How do you know she didn't use her former connection to get close? What is your evidence?
And no, a prisoner of a coin cannot just reach out and touch someone or anyone without invitation, that is why the Knights are so careful not to touch, because even accidentally can be seen as an implied invite.
It may be a bit of a subtle point Uriel was trying to make for some, but it wasn't the reaching out and touching that Lasciel did that was against the rules, it was the lying that influenced Harry's free will, that broke the rules... That is why Uriel could step in and do a little influencing on his own, i.e. the seven words..
Mira, read my post. My evidence is in the part you quoted. If you insist, I'll dig up the quote, but fair warning I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it soon or not if you do want it, because I don't have my copy of Skin Game right now so I'll have to find an online version I can access, and I'm busy.
Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules. We also know that lying using that connection is not against the rules, because it is the job of KotC to "reveal the lies of the Fallen" among other things--ie not the job of archangels like Uriel. Therefore, if Lasciel was using this connection between her and Harry, it wouldn't be against the rules, and since, as you pointed out, what she did was against the rules, we know she wasn't using such a connection.
uoteThe question was how far they can extend from their Denarian hosts not the coins.. So unless
What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Jim: Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules
Do you have any evidence that the reaching out was not also against the rules?Do you have any that it is?
We do not know exactly when Lasciel’s coin got loose again it might have had a host during changes. Furthermore can’t is a fuzzy thing with angelic beings. Sometimes it just means that it is against the rules and those rules can bend in certain situations or the fallen can just accept the consequences of giving their opposition more freedom to act.Yeah she could had been riding some hapless dupe, and? What canon supports a position that the rules of the coins can be outright ignored? If the Fallen can just wander around it makes a fool of Jim's plot device. Not that I think that would hold Jim back since I'm uncertain that he thinks much about continuity, but still.
Yeah she could had been riding some hapless dupe, and? What canon supports a position that the rules of the coins can be outright ignored? If the Fallen can just wander around it makes a fool of Jim's plot device. Not that I think that would hold Jim back since I'm uncertain that he thinks much about continuity, but still.The fallen, just like their adversaries, keep to the rules because of the consequences of not doing so. But because of what the fallen are they sometimes break the rules when they think they can get away with it. Then the angels can compensate.
For being in position to whisper in Harry's ear Anduriel is the logical candidate since that is his thing. It also explains how the Fallen would have known(per Skin Game). What got talked about around Harry got overheard. They obviously can't read his mind since Gray would have been blown from the git go. About Bonea and how did Lasciel know. I make that to be because Bonea was a thing before Lash vacated the premises.Harry told everything to Karen in her home when Anduriel was listening.
Could Father Forthill sell the team out, sure. All that has to happen is for Jim to decide its so.
I'm trying to understand this argument. My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all. The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this. When Lash was burned out of Harry's head that connection to the coin was lost. The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access. I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel. Not Lasciel. In so far as I know he is the only Fallen who could have known that Harry had a broken back.
As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind. The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother. I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.
I'm trying to understand this argument. My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all. The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this. .Exactly.
As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind. The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother. I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.
In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.
Oh I see, your evidence isn't that good actually..
You seem to be missing the whole point as to why Uriel said the seven words he said to restore balance.. He says it all in Ghost Story when he revealed to Harry what actually happened.. You can twist my words all you want..
However you are very mistaken, anything Lasciel said or whispered that pushed Harry one way or the other violates his free will.. That is a violation of the rules.
The question was how far they can extend from their Denarian hosts not the coins.. So unless
Lasciel was already held by Hannah Asher, her range was limited..
Sorry, once again you are confused.. It doesn't matter how the connection was made..
My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all.
The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access.
I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel. Not Lasciel.
yet at the end of White Night that echo Harry heard scared him so much, he immediately went to dig up the coin and called Father Forthill to pick it up. So Harry at least thought there still might be a connection that he didn't want any part of.
There is no evidence that Harry was afraid of a remaining connection to Lasciel, or that that was why he gave the coin to Father Forthill. It could just as easily have been that Lash's sacrifice helped him get to the point where he was prepared to give up all possibility of him using the coin's power, instead of trying to avoid it but keeping it in reserve.
I heard a very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.
I played for a while longer, before gently setting aside my guitar.
Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over, so that he could
pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.
The spined Denarian I had beaten down with the silver construct-hand lay reclining on the ground beside Magog, his face twisted with hate, one hand twisting and clenching—but his maimed body was otherwise motionless.
In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.There is a woj somewhere about what the fallen can do but I can not find it so we can not discuss the meaning. Usually Jim forgets that it is against the rules to do so just like when he discusses Uriel's power.
And here we have another case of Jim not paying attention to his own plot. He has Vadderung warn Harry that Anduriel is listening and has Harry run his mouth to Murphy about Bonea. Not Smart. But thanks for pointing it out, I had forgotten it.Or maybe he thought it just more important that Murphy knew that than Nicodemus didn't.
"Meaning that since a whisper in you ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child." - Skin game, said by Lasciel.
I always took this to mean she was the whisperer. I see why someone may not, but I think she is the simplest solution, and obviously the one that would know Harry best.
There is no indication that Harry was afraid of the coin any longer. Had he been afraid he would have left the coins behind the protections they were under in his basement. With Lash dead there was no longer a reason to have the coin. It could no longer affect him.
There is also the idea that he could still call the coin whether that is really true or not. He told Mab so anyway but that was more to have something to chat about during the negotiation. But that is also a link.
Quote
And here we have another case of Jim not paying attention to his own plot. He has Vadderung warn Harry that Anduriel is listening and has Harry run his mouth to Murphy about Bonea. Not Smart. But thanks for pointing it out, I had forgotten it.
Or maybe he thought it just more important that Murphy knew that than Nicodemus didn't.
Or maybe Karen just needed a good laugh. It is therapeutic.
Whatever Harry said to Mab, he couldn't have done the Darkhallow ... . The Darkhallow would have required time and preparation, Cowl bitched about the prep time.Harry couldn't have performed an ascension level Darkhallow, but he may have been able to perform a "enough power to save Maggie" level Darkhallow.
I heard a very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.This and the guitar playing was Bonea according to Id Harry in Skin Game. It's fair to argue that Id Harry was wrong, but it isn't fair to say Id Harry didn't say that.
Everything I can, dear host.
Harry couldn't have performed an ascension level Darkhallow, but he may have been able to perform a "enough power to save Maggie" level Darkhallow.As changes was set up now Mab was the best choice. It was faster than a darkhallow and more reliable than the fallen. If Harry had gone for one if the other two it would have been a totally different book not just by Harry’s choices but by Jim’s choices as well.
This and the guitar playing was Bonea according to Id Harry in Skin Game. It's fair to argue that Id Harry was wrong, but it isn't fair to say Id Harry didn't say that.
This and the guitar playing was Bonea according to Id Harry in Skin Game. It's fair to argue that Id Harry was wrong, but it isn't fair to say Id Harry didn't say that.
As changes was set up now Mab was the best choice. It was faster than a darkhallow and more reliable than the fallen. If Harry had gone for one if the other two it would have been a totally different book not just by Harry’s choices but by Jim’s choices as well.Yes, Mab was the least bad of three bad options, Uriel reinforces that when he talked about the path.
But whether Id Harry was right or wrong or didn't say it is beside the point.Depends on which point you're referring to. If the point is that Lash did it, it is directly relevant. If it's about Lasciel still having a connection to Harry, then it's relevant. If it's that Harry was scared that there was a connection, then you're right, and it's not relevant. But all those points were made (I think by you), so it is relevant to this thread.
Depends on which point you're referring to. If the point is that Lash did it, it is directly relevant. If it's about Lasciel still having a connection to Harry, then it's relevant. If it's that Harry was scared that there was a connection, then you're right, and it's not relevant. But all those points were made (I think by you), so it is relevant to this thread.If I understand you correctly it was Bonnie that did the whispering at the end of White Night and that Id Harry claimed that she did. Do you have the quote and page number from Skin Game? I don't doubt you, I just cannot find it. Anyway, what I am saying is Bonnie was quite developed at the end of White Night to come forth so shortly after Lash died. Which is weird because after that outburst/whisper when he played the guitar, she has been silent, her only presence was severe
I mean, she could have made you see and feel anything at all, and…" Bob paused, and his eyelights blinked. "Hey, Harry. Are you crying?"Oh, and the sigil was no longer on his hand.
"No," I snapped, and left the lab.
The apartment felt… very empty.
I sat down with my guitar and tried to sort out my thoughts. It was hard. I was feeling all kinds of anger and confusion and sadness. I kept telling myself that it was the emotional fallout of Malvora's psychic assault, but it's one thing to repeat that to yourself over and over, and quite another to sit there feeling awful.
I started playing.
Beautifully.
It wasn't perfect performance—a computer can do that. It wasn't a terribly complex bit of music. My fingers didn't suddenly regain their complete dexterity—but the music became alive. My hands moved with a surety and confidence I usually felt only in bursts a few seconds long. I played a second piece, and then a third, and every time my rhythm was on, and I found myself seeing and using new nuances, variations on chords that lent depth and color to the simple pieces I could play—sweet sadness to the minor chords, power to the majors, stresses and resolutions I'd always heard in my head, but could never express in life, It was almost like someone had opened a door in my head, like they were helping me along.
I heard a very, very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.
I played for a while longer, before gently setting aside my guitar.
Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over, so that he could pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.
If I understand you correctly it was Bonnie that did the whispering at the end of White Night and that Id Harry claimed that she did.My claim is that Id Harry said that. It's about halfway through Ch. 23 of Skin Game. I can change text size, which changes the number of pages.
My claim is that Id Harry said that. It's about halfway through Ch. 23 of Skin Game. I can change text size, which changes the number of pages.
Oh, and the sigil was no longer on his hand.Yeah, I know that as well, but that still doesn't explain why after he set the guitar to one side he dug up the coin and called Father Forthill to get it. If he had nothing to fear, why not just leave it were it was at? Under three feet of concrete,[please don't hold me to the exact depth.. :P] and in a magical containment circle to boot. Or was there just enough doubt that he felt it was safer if he got rid of the coin all together? Considering what happened in Father Forthill's office in Changes he was right to fear. Consider this, if Lasciel was no longer able to exert influence over Harry, why was she so effective? "And it is all your fault!"
No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult. Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.
There is no text that I have yet seen that says Lasciel was the Fallen who whispered in Harry ear. Some one of the Fallen did, but barring a WOJ or text the question is open.
"Meaning that since a whisper in your ear that should have killed you seems to have
failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart. and collect our child. She's far too
valuable a resource to die with you."
No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult. Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.
... Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules ...
... while in the coins, they ARE effectively frozen in carbonite without a human agent to assist them ...
So, no... the Fallen cannot reach out of their coins.
Or at least: if they do, it's the kind of obvious "breaking rules" that dynamite on a prison wall is, and would get direct & immediate response (e.g. from Uriel, and Lucifer (per WoJ, Lucifer himself wants the Denarians limited to their Coins) &c). So it'd be a last-ditch, trumps-of-doom sort of thing. Dare I say, an "apocalyptic" sort of thing. Not that we should go BATty about this...
... The visit Harry received in Father Forthill's office was pretty faint. In fact it took Uriel's enhancement of the increment for Harry to understand that someone, i.e. one of the Fallen has pushed him over the edge, "and it is all your fault." Now it could be that the Fallen who said this made himself or herself faint for a reason, or it could be if the coin was near and her slight connection to Harry being the still developing Bonnie, that was the best Lasciel could do.
Lasciel had a new Host by that point, and was no longer limited to the Coin. It's as simple as that.
How do we know she had a new host? She was outside the Coin.
Yup, that is the obvious choice, but was Hannah Asher disillusioned so much at that point that she'd allow Lasciel to go after Harry? I could see it if this happened post C.I. after all her friends had died, but before? Maybe..Hannah was picked up after changes according to her story. It was the dead of the fellowship that made her recruitment easier.
Hannah was picked up after changes according to her story. It was the dead of the fellowship that made her recruitment easier.True, but is that true of Lasciel? I can see Denarians that go in for violence not last very long, but Lasciel's methods of seduction might take longer, her shadow existed a long time in Harry's head. Then again a pissed off lover could kill off her host in an act of passion quite quickly.
But any temporary host would do. Some denarians go through hosts pretty fast.
True, but is that true of Lasciel? I can see Denarians that go in for violence not last very long, but Lasciel's methods of seduction might take longer, her shadow existed a long time in Harry's head. Then again a pissed off lover could kill off her host in an act of passion quite quickly.I got the impression that the shadow usually did not last that long and a host easily won is also easily discarded.
... True, but is that true of Lasciel? I can see Denarians that go in for violence not last very long, but Lasciel's methods of seduction might take longer, her shadow existed a long time in Harry's head. Then again a pissed off lover could kill off her host in an act of passion quite quickly ...
He says that part of Lash remained, that was Bonnie. However at the time Harry didn't know that.Say rather, Harry didn't know it consciously. idHarry "knew" it, in a nonverbal way, and needed articulate-Harry to put it into words for himself. That's the moment "Harry" realized that the parasite was a spirit-entity born of he & Lash; but at some level, he had "already known."
... If he had nothing to fear, why not just leave it were it was at? Under three feet of concrete,[please don't hold me to the exact depth.. :P] and in a magical containment circle to boot.If the Denarius itself was insufficient "containment," the concrete and Harry's magic circle would be as butter to the hot Lasciel knife.
... Considering what happened in Father Forthill's office in Changes he was right to fear. Consider this, if Lasciel was no longer able to exert influence over Harry, why was she so effective? "And it is all your fault!"
It's a pretty W-A WAG, frankly... particularly when Occam is patiently standing there with an obvious alternative. We have WoJ that they're "frozen in carbonite." We have (as @morriswalters points out) Lasciel's Sigil being gone; not faint or obscure, but gone.
But consider: Nic had given Harry the coin. That paints a great big "Denarian Coin HERE" target on Dresden's dingy little hole (if Nic ever gets the report that the sigil is gone from Harry's hand, etc)... and on the home of Mrs. Spunkelcreif & the Willoughbys.
"How do you know?" I asked.
"Because in two thousand years,no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen--except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it. And you claim you never took up the coin."
"That's right,"I said.
"Then either the shadow is still there," Michael said, "still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you are lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options."
" Lasciel's shadow," I told him, "doesn't live her anymore. The Fallen have no power over me and neither do you."
Jim doesn't say the coins are frozen in carbonite. He says they are effectively frozen in carbonite. He could just mean that it's cheating for them to act outside of the coin. If they do, then Uriel can respond, so they are effectively, but not actually, limited. It's a bit of a stretch.
Is a fallen angel lying the violation? Could Lashiel have lied to Harry through Ascher's mouth in Hades' vault? Would that be cheating? (In my opinon: probably not, probably, probably not).
But Bonnie wasn't, was she? Note in Skin Game Lasciel referred to her as her child, not Lash's child ...
... It was unlikely anyone was going to come for it. Maybe Anduriel knew ...
... Maybe Anduriel knew, but then he must have also known that the Sword of Faith was in plain sight in Harry's umbrella stand for years, yet no one tried to steal it to destroy it ...
It also meshes nicely back with Skin Game - because Harry had a Sword hanging out in his apartment, the know-it-all spymaster of the Denarians didn't KNOW what was going on in there.
Talk about scary, for a being who usually can know everything!
Lasciel had no idea that "Lash" existed.
The sword was in an umbrella stand mostly unknown and not talked about and Anduriel can't listen everywhere all the time, at the same time. Not to mention that any White God worth his godhood would not make his sword trackable or findable.
Nic could have brought in troops at any time and burned Michael's house to the ground and killed everybody in it and then taken his sword from his burned dead bullet ridden fingers. From Small Favor onward, when it is established that he knows where Michael lives. But by canon the sword is unbreakable except through a failure of the Knight and possession is meaningless outside of that. This can be inferred by the number of times the Knights have challenged the Denarians and died and the swords haven't been taken. And if the coins are always dangerous to the Knights then it can be no less true that the swords are always dangerous to the Fallen.
In terms of Bonea and her connection to Lasciel, there will always be the possibility that Bonea will betray Harry through a possible connection to Lasciel. This will be determined by the arc Jim created her for. The protections Harry put around the coins in the basement were always meaningless. Lash tells Harry that she can show him how to summon the coin. Which implies that she can't. It has to be him and he could have always dug it up.
[1]But by canon the sword is unbreakable except through a failure of the Knight and possession is meaningless outside of that. This can be inferred by the number of times the Knights have challenged the Denarians and died and the swords haven't been taken.[1]Also they may not even be able to touch them. Susan's hand was zapped when she touched it in Death Masks. This implies some level of protection. We know Lea wasn't able to pick it up unless it was misused.
...
[2]The protections Harry put around the coins in the basement were always meaningless.
Um I believe that Michael's house is guarded by an angel squad. What canon about the Swords? Is it word of Jim because I cannot remember Michael, Sanya, or Shiro making those claims in the novels.Reread Skin Games. The Angels don't protect against mortal intruders. Thus Molly putting a contingent of Fae in the hood. And again the whole point of the charade that puts Murphy out of the picture is Nic seeking to unmake the sword. And this goes as far back as Grave Peril when Lea tricks Harry into using the sword in a matter for which it wasn't intended.
Lea’s laughter rang out through the graves like silver bells. “Yes!” she caroled, stepping forward. She bent and with a casual motion picked up the great sword. “I knew you would try to cheat me again, sweet boy.” She smiled at me, a flash of dainty canines. “I must thank you, Harry. I would never have been able to touch this had not the one who held it betrayed its purpose.”
However even though he thought Lash was dead, he still heard the whisper then he dug it up and called Father Forthill.I can hear my Mothers voice and she has been dead for more years than I want to acknowledge. Harry hears his mothers voice in multiple books. What he heard was no more than a message recorded in his mind. A goodbye from Lash. Jim is a sentimentalist.
Nic could have brought in troops at any time and burned Michael's house to the ground and killed everybody in it and then taken his sword from his burned dead bullet ridden fingers. From Small Favor onward, when it is established that he knows where Michael lives. But by canon the sword is unbreakable except through a failure of the Knight and possession is meaningless outside of that. This can be inferred by the number of times the Knights have challenged the Denarians and died and the swords haven't been taken. And if the coins are always dangerous to the Knights then it can be no less true that the swords are always dangerous to the Fallen.Small Favor is also the book where Michael drops out of the fight, though. Running such an operation against an active Knight might occasionally be an idea, and of course sheer petty vengeance can make Nic try it... but if he was that petty to all former Knights he'd never get anything done - after all if a random house in Chicago suburbia gets blown up, burned, and bullet riddled the authorities WILL be on his tail. Nic can undoubtedly deal with that, but he can't deal with that AND freely pursue his actual goals.
I can hear my Mothers voice and she has been dead for more years than I want to acknowledge. Harry hears his mothers voice in multiple books. What he heard was no more than a message recorded in his mind. A goodbye from Lash. Jim is a sentimentalist.
I can hear my Mothers voice and she has been dead for more years than I want to acknowledge. Harry hears his mothers voice in multiple books. What he heard was no more than a message recorded in his mind. A goodbye from Lash. Jim is a sentimentalist.But you don't live in Harry's world. If something strange happens I assume there is a natural explanation. If something strange happens to Harry we can better assume it is magic.
Harry might tell you that not everything involves magic. And not all magic involves fallen angels.
Humans are evolved to err in certain directions. That shadow there can be a predator. False positives might cost you some energy. False negatives cost lives.
If Harry hears a voice in his head of course it is some demonic influence.
this is kind of apples and oranges argumentI've never gotten that saying. Shouldn't we compare apples to oranges? They're both fruit that are common, made into juice, grow on a tree, are often fed to children as a snack, spherical, and probably other things too.
I've never gotten that saying. Shouldn't we compare apples to oranges? They're both fruit that are common, made into juice, grow on a tree, are often fed to children as a snack, spherical, and probably other things too.I'll answer when you tell me which of the two make better orange juice. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges)
I've never gotten that saying. Shouldn't we compare apples to oranges? They're both fruit that are common, made into juice, grow on a tree, are often fed to children as a snack, spherical, and probably other things too.
I've never gotten that saying. Shouldn't we compare apples to oranges? They're both fruit that are common, made into juice, grow on a tree, are often fed to children as a snack, spherical, and probably other things too.
I much prefer the foreign idioms in Wikipedia article Morris linked to such as "the grandmother and the machine gun." Those are two things that really should be beyond comparison. Further I agree with the scientific studies in the article that apples and oranges are highly comparable.
Comparable, but not the same.. It may be a small matter of a gene or two on the strand of lifel, but that is what sets us apart as much as it makes us one..The point of the saying is that they aren't comparable. And that's why I've never gotten the saying. Apples and oranges are highly comparable. Grandmothers and machine guns are, hopefully, not very comparable.
The point of the saying is that they aren't comparable. And that's why I've never gotten the saying. Apples and oranges are highly comparable. Grandmothers and machine guns are, hopefully, not very comparable.
The idiom may also be used to indicate that a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an apple is faulted for not being a good orange.This is the use you will see most, particularly in online forums. Thus me posting
I'll answer when you tell me which of the two make better orange juice.
The point of the saying is that they aren't comparable. And that's why I've never gotten the saying. Apples and oranges are highly comparable. Grandmothers and machine guns are, hopefully, not very comparable.
In both cases I would err on the safe side and sacrifice a goat to the spirit of my dead mother. You never know.
I'm not sure I've ever actually use it that way. When I see it, it's usually pretty clearly "those two things aren't anything alike." There are a lot of common sayings and words that I see used improperly more often than properly. Ever sense Jim pointed out decimates meaning and misuse, I haven't stopped seeing people misuse it.Are we discussing rhetoric or taxonomy? Everything shares something with other things. Obviously you have never went to war on the internet with any group who keep a book full of fallacies and rhetorical devices at hand to slap down the unwary adversary in a particularly tasty argument.
In both cases I would err on the safe side and sacrifice a goat to the spirit of my dead mother. You never know.I like goats. Better to sacrifice a pig. Afterwords you can make bacon. And mom loved bacon. She told me so just now.
argument.
In a more practical sense if you spouse requested apples from the grocery for an apple pie and you brought home oranges, I suspect she would doubt your vision and your good judgement. For the purposes of apple pie baking they aren't comparable at all.
I like goats. Better to sacrifice a pig. Afterwords you can make bacon. And mom loved bacon. She told me so just now.
I had a husband like that... ::) But he always redeemed himself by buying me a flower.. ;) SweetThe whole thing with a sacrifice is that you share the meat. I do not eat cockroaches.
man, just not to best to send to the grocery store, even with a detailed shopping list.
Yeah, but pigs are smart. How about a cockroach? The world can always use fewer of them...
The whole thing with a sacrifice is that you share the meat. I do not eat cockroaches.I thought usually when there is sacrifice the carcass is tossed in the fire and burned for the god to whom it is being offered..
... I do not eat cockroaches.
In both cases I would err on the safe side and sacrifice a goat to the spirit of my dead mother. You never know.
I thought usually when there is sacrifice the carcass is tossed in the fire and burned for the god to whom it is being offered..Most sacrifices were eaten. Some were not but that was an exception.
What you describe is simple butchering...
I'm pretty sure you do.But they are not the main part of the dish, the part we taste and live on.
You may not intend to, you may not include them, or eat anything that lists them... but you do. The number of foodstuffs with cockroach-bodypart "accidental inclusion" is ... rather startling.
In BOTH cases?You can eat both.
Apples AND oranges?
You can eat both.See, they are the same.
You might be talking "neutral" in terms of the Accords, but many people are talking about her cover story of neutrality. The neutrality explicitly stated in books. It's pretty common for people to build theories around that neutrality or to object to theories based on that neutrality. The fact that it's a cover is only stated by Jim. It's not in any of the books, short stories, comic books, or paranet papers.Ah. I see where the misapprehension comes in. Alas.
I think you perhaps misunderstood that WOJ.
There's a WoJ that being in the coins limits the influence of the Fallen in them to Earth, which I had taken to mean that the Fallen in the coins absolutely can project themselves out of them, it's just against the rules. If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any need for a ritual.
Ah. I see where the misapprehension comes in. Alas.
I am familiar with that WOJ. Jim elaborated on how it’s the Archive’s cover story that her role is simply to be the repository of all human knowledge—when she is actually on the lookout for mentions of beings better left forgotten. At which point she dispatches agents to deal with them.
That is not a lack of “neutrality”. Being neutral does not mean being inactive. Switzerland has been neutral for centuries, and yet continues to be active in it’s own pursuits.
The Archive is neutral. She doesn’t ally with anyone, or act in any interests of any party other than those of the Archive itself.
Though she might work around the edges of that proscription where one of her two friends is involved.
So, “neutral” is not a synonym for “inactive”. I hope That helps all of the people out there who misunderstand.
I think you perhaps misunderstood that WOJ.
"All that knowledge makes the Archive powerful--and it was created as a repository of learning, a safeguard against the possibility of cataclysm of civilization, a loss of all knowledge, the destruction of all learning. It was bound to neutrality, to the preservation and gathering of knowledge."Harry, Small Favor, Ch. 35, emphasis original.
"But the Archive was created neutral," Sanya said. "Constrained."Small Favor, Ch. 35.
The Archive was created to be a neutral force. A repository of knowledge.Luccio, Small Favor, Ch. 46.
Marcone had begun expanding his power base into the supernatural world as well, signing on to the Unseelie Accords as a freeholding lord. It made him, in the eyes of the authorities of the supernatural world, a kind of small, neutral state.Narration, Small Favor, Ch. 5.
I'll concede, as I already have, that Ivy is a neutral party under the Accords. This isn't the same thing as saying that she is bound to neutrality.
Actually the Archive is bound to neutrality, that why it was asked to act/direct the duel between Harry and Ortega.This is either 100% wrong or pure speculation based on some reasoning you haven't expressed. She was asked to serve to mediate the duel because she's a "neutral party" under the Accords. In Small Favor, Harry "could have chosen any one of a dozen neutral arbiters." Ch. 35. Marcone is a neutral party. Are you suggesting that Marcone is "bound to neutrality," that he was "created neutral?"
she has to abide by the rules for the Archive.What are those rules and where did you get them from? Because the rule that we get about the Archive being bound to neutrality is from her cover story that we know for a fact is a lie.
The Archive -- within the context of the Accords -- is at least legally a "neutral party" regarding any other two parties?I was going to say yes, but I'm not sure if she is a de facto or de jure neutral party. I'm also not sure if she is a neutral party regarding any other two parties.
She is "bound" to that "neutrality" to whatever degree her being signatory to the Accords binds her.No because the "bound" language comes from the description of the Archive's essential nature. I believe agreeing to the use of the bound language for two different situations just confuses the issue when people have enough trouble with this concept when not using the same language to describe both ideas.
I do not believe the Fae can be obliviated. They are too tightly tied to the mundane world, too naturally a part of it.Thomas said that the Venatori tried but failed because of Gutenberg and the Grimm Brothers. The Venatori operate under orders from the Archive. Thus the Archive tried to obliviate the Fae. The Archive acted against multiple Accorded members without provocation.
What she is bound to in terms of neutrality is vague when dealing with the Accords (is it because of her position in the accords or because of what she is), but is less vague in response to Dresden's call in Changes. In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head." So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.
In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head." So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.Kincaid doesn't know Ivy's true purpose. He wouldn't know that she could. And Ivy did give Harry the information he needed. She also interfered in this micro fiction.
... No because the "bound" language comes from the description of the Archive's essential nature. I believe agreeing to the use of the bound language for two different situations just confuses the issue when people have enough trouble with this concept when not using the same language to describe both ideas ...
Kincaid doesn't know Ivy's true purpose. He wouldn't know that she could. And Ivy did give Harry the information he needed. She also interfered in this micro fiction.It is much like the Sidhe, Lea did it in Ghost Story. When they want to tell you something but they can't they may resort to oracle like riddles.
I'm not arguing that the Archive won't act so as to appear bound by neutrality. I'm arguing that the evidence we have of her being bound by neutrality is tied up with the lie of her purpose so that we don't know that she is in fact bound by neutrality. We know that the Archive is not neutral. The Archive pursues a goal. That goal appears to be the obliviation of most if not all supernatural creatures. We know Ivy acted to help Harry twice.
If Ivy is bound by neutrality, we clearly don't have any idea what that means because it hasn't stopped her from doing a whole lot. Saying Ivy is bound by neutrality is a poor objection to someone's theory that Ivy got word to Mab to be prepared to save Harry (or any other theory that doesn't necessitate Ivy acting openly).
I was going to say yes, but I'm not sure if she is a de facto or de jure neutral party. I'm also not sure if she is a neutral party regarding any other two parties.
This is either 100% wrong or pure speculation based on some reasoning you haven't expressed. She was asked to serve to mediate the duel because she's a "neutral party" under the Accords. In Small Favor, Harry "could have chosen any one of a dozen neutral arbiters." Ch. 35. Marcone is a neutral party. Are you suggesting that Marcone is "bound to neutrality," that he was "created neutral?"
As to the claim she is "bound to neutrality," I ask that you read the quote I provided, my argument based on that quote and what we know about the Archive's true purpose, and make an argument that my reasoning is flawed or give some other reasoning that you think is better instead of just saying I'm wrong.
The Archive was created to be a neutral force. A repository of knowledge. But what if Ivy's unique circumstance allowed her to ignore those limitations?"
Yup, you are wrong... Luccio, Small Favor page 408No, you're wrong. It doesn't matter what Luccio says unless Luccio knows more about the Oblivion War than the Venatori like Thomas and Lara, and Luccio spreads it around by telling the truth about the Archives true nature instead of being smart enough to know that's an absolutely stupid idea and keep spreading the lie that the Archive is just a hedge against a cataclysmic disaster. Luccio doesn't know about the Oblivion War.
The Archive is the collective written memory of mankind, that makes it a bit different from Marcone.It doesn't make them any different under the Accords.
Archive keeps it's host emotionally remote for a reason--because otherwise the passions and prejudices and hatreds and jealousies of thousands of lifetimes have the potential to distill themselves into a single being.
The Archive was created to be a neutral force. A repository of knowledge.
What she is bound to in terms of neutrality is vague when dealing with the Accords (is it because of her position in the accords or because of what she is), but is less vague in response to Dresden's call in Changes. In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head." So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.
It doesn't matter what characters who don't even know about the Oblivion War say about the Archive. Give me a reason why they should be believed when they are wrong about what the Archive even is. Until someone can do that, it does absolutely nothing to advance your argument when you repeat what those characters have said. They don't know. They are basing their reasoning on lies.
The Archives official role is a cover story, the Archive was created specifically for the Oblivion War since it's a war that by definition is fought over generations they needed a way to secure knowledge between centuries. The Archive monitors any mention of any Old Once and once they appear to be forgotten she holds on to the name for a few hundred years to be sure and then deletes it from her memory casting that particular god in to oblivion
Yes, the Archive (and Ivy, the two aren’t really divisible) know about these forgotten beings. The Archive is in essence the keeper of the dead, where they are concerned. Once the archive believes one of them has been consigned to oblivion, she holds on to the memory of that being briefly, for another thousand years or so, watching for any mention of that being in print in an effort to make sure that she is the last person alive who remembers whichever hideous entity has been consigned.
And once the safety period has elapsed, and the Archive is confident that no one else remembers, she deletes the memory from the Archive. Bad guy, gone.
She also tries to keep track of the enemy players in the Oblivion War via watching for communications and so on. When she finds a trace of them, somewhere, she lets a cell of operatives (like Lara and Thomas) know what’s up, through a blind drop, and sends them off to handle the problem.(Emphasis added). The Archive is a general in a secret war. How is that neutral? She sends Thomas out to kill people. That's neutral? How?!
The Oblivion War is a huge, slow thing. Stuff happens every few decades, at most. That’s why the Archive was created–to be an immortal awareness, something that could track and intelligently direct responses to the enemy in a war happening on an almost geological scale.
All that other stuff she says the Archive is for? Smoke and mirrors. :)
Kincaid, by the way, has no idea that the Oblivion War exists. It isn’t like Ivy explains this stuff. She just gives orders. :)
the Archive (and Ivy, the two aren’t really divisible)
The Archive is a general in a secret war. How is that neutral? She sends Thomas out to kill people. That's neutral? How?!For starters, I think that you innately misapprehend he meaning of “neutral”. Several people seem to be.
Please don’t confuse “neutral” with “inactive”. They aren’t the same thing.
Doggone it, I came on here to actually post what I felt was an original thought.
I’m quite certain that when Ivy says “Your services are no longer required,” that Kincaid is fired on the spot. And he knows it, and won’t be coming back.
Jim even outright said in the discussion with the Peace Talks trailer that Ivy will be attending alone. You know how rare a direct answer like that from Jim is?
Now, unlike the svartalves, Ivy knows exactly how treacherous the Fomor are. She wouldn’t be attending alone if Kincaid still worked for her.
The thing is, I’m pretty sure that Kincaid also knows full well that these Peace Talks smell rotten. And whether he wants to admit it to himself or not, he cares about her.
I’m guessing that when it all falls apart, he’s waiting in position somewhere nearby (perhaps with a sniper rifle) to protect her—which serves to heal their friendship.
It took a couple of books for Jim to reconcile Eb and Harry. It will be interesting to see if Jim uses Peace Talks or Battle Ground to repair that relationship.
A couple of points for the short story. Being able to reach the pedals isn't a necessary or sufficient condition for driving. Documentation would be key, but it implies that the Archive owns a car. I wonder what kind she would favor?
Also, I would expect that when the double cross occurs, that the Archive would bail. While she can fight, to this date she has relied on security through obscurity. Her true mission would seem to work best when she functions out of sight.
Imagine the results of the anger and bitterness and desire for revenge of all those lifetimes, combined with the power of the Archive and the restraint of a twelve-year-old child."
"I'd rather not." I said.
"Nor would I," Luccio said. "That could be a true nightmare. All that knowledge, without conscience to direct it."
For starters, I think that you innately misapprehend he meaning of “neutral”. Several people seem to be.How does this make her any different than Marcone or "any other of a dozen neutral arbiters under the Accords?" Is Marcone also therefor bound by neutrality? Ivy might be neutral in the most dry, technical, legal sense, but in any practical sense of the word, Ivy is likely rarely neutral.
“Neutral” does not mean “does not fight”. That’s a pacifist, or someone sworn to nonviolence.
From the dictionary: “not helping either side in a conflict, Disagreement, etc.; impartial”.
When two people or countries are fighting, she doesn’t help either. That’s does not mean that the Archive does not pursue its own purpose. It means it doesn’t help others with theirs.
Look at the example of McAnally. He is neutral, “out”, however you want to say it. And yet when an entity invaded his personal territory, he is free to defend that territory. That doesn’t make him “not neutral”. Nor does it when he helps a groggy Andi. He is still stubbornly neutral.
From the perspective of the Archive, the human race, this world are her territory, and she is doing nothing but defending it against threats. Not taking any side but her own.
The Archive is pursuing her own purpose in eliminating the threat of various monsters. She uses her minions, regardless of their other affiliations, to do so. She’s neutral. She doesn’t help anyone fight their wars, she only fights her own.
Please don’t confuse “neutral” with “inactive”. They aren’t the same thing.
in Small Favor Luccio warns Harry that the Host still has control over the Archive. Normally by the time the female candidate inherits the Archive she has had a life time ofLuccio is speculating in that conversation. She states that the many well known oracles were actually the Archive. These oracles helped sides in conflicts. They didn't meet the dictionary definition of neutral. If the Archive is neutral, Luccio is wrong that these women were the Archive. If she is correct, the Archive isn't neutral. If the Archive isn't neutral, Luccio is wrong about the Archive.
emotional experience to insulate her from all the lifetimes of the Archive Hosts. Ivy hasn't had any of that, she has just been distant until Harry came along, and to some extent Kincaid both attempting to treat her like a normal kid which she has never been.
Luccio asks the question page 408
How does this make her any different than Marcone or "any other of a dozen neutral arbiters under the Accords?" Is Marcone also therefor bound by neutrality? Ivy might be neutral in the most dry, technical, legal sense, but in any practical sense of the word, Ivy is likely rarely neutral.
Luccio is speculating in that conversation. She states that the many well known oracles were actually the Archive. These oracles helped sides in conflicts. They didn't meet the dictionary definition of neutral. If the Archive is neutral, Luccio is wrong that these women were the Archive. If she is correct, the Archive isn't neutral. If the Archive isn't neutral, Luccio is wrong about the Archive.
If not for Ivy, Harry would not have approached Vadderung. If Harry had not met Vadderung, he wouldn't have known to go to Chichen Itza. (Except that this is a fictional story that Jim would have worked out differently). The point is that Ivy took sides in a supernatural conflict to decisively end it in favor of one of the participants.
Well to begin with Ivy/the Archive is the living memory of mankind backed by a hell of a lot of magical power. She can do a whole lot of damage all by her lonesome.. Marcone ain't in her league.Your ignoring the point.
Yes, and most were mad.. Oracles foretell the future based on the past and the information at hand.. That is pretty neutral because it is, what it is... Now what the humans upon hearing the oracle do, or not do with the information is up to them. Prophasies and omens cut both ways.Are you suggesting the Oracles had no idea what would happen when they provided such information? That they didn't profit one side over the other by providing such information? I'm just applying known facts to the definition supplied by AClone and endorsed by you.
Actually Ivy said she couldn't give Harry any information. Harry pressed further and she sent him to Marcone. Harry decisions from that point were up to him, not exactly taking sides on Ivy's part.Telling him Marcone could help is giving him information. It is helping. It led directly to the destruction of the Red Court. Or is Ivy incapable of predicting that because she is completely unrelated to the Oracles?
... it implies that the Archive owns a car. I wonder what kind she would favor? ...
The safest, most reliable, most practical, versatile one.I had a shocking pink Hummer in my minds eye. My age is probably showing.
But, as noted, something low-key and good for "flying under the radar," so no WWII-era armored Mercedes!
I'm guessing something like an older police-modified (but civilian paint &c) sedan, nice & boring-looking (Ford Crown Victoria? Chevy Impala?), with bullet-proof glass & armor in the body-panels.
Maybe one of the 4WD trucks / SUVs used by rural cops, rangers, etc?
Given the likely resources of the Archive, I expect cost wouldn't play ANY part of the equation.
Your ignoring the point.
Are you suggesting the Oracles had no idea what would happen when they provided such information?
Telling him Marcone could help is giving him information. It is helping. It led directly to the destruction of the Red Court. Or is Ivy incapable of predicting that because she is completely unrelated to the Oracles?
" Ivy says she cannot get involved. That the business you're on is deadly. She dares not unbalance it for fear of changing the outcome."
"Believe me, she remembers, Dresden. But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head."
It is an open question to the point, can the Archive control the host? Any creature able to create the Archive would have known the risks of the Archive being used by the host against its purpose. Has Jim thought it out that far? It's an interesting point. My guess is no.
I think Jim is contradicting himself to some degree. Because in Small Favor that is what Luccio is talking about, the Host controlling the Archive.. However in Changes, Kincaid tells Harry that even if Ivy wanted to tell him the information he wants, the Archive will not let it out of her head.
All that other stuff she says the Archive is for? Smoke and mirrors. :)Jim Butcher, https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-mortal-allies/ (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-mortal-allies/). Why should we trust what Ivy says about the thing Jim says Ivy is lying about?
Kincaid, by the way, has no idea that the Oblivion War exists. It isn’t like Ivy explains this stuff.
[1]Just for the record, Mab ended the Reds, not Ivy. You don't think it was an accident that Lea was at Harry's, at that moment of time? ... [2]But Ivy didn't tell Harry anything that he couldn't have known, given Marcone's known proclivities.1. Mab, Lea, Odin, Ebenezar, Harry, Martin, Susan, the White God, perhaps the Merlin, and Ivy. Of those Mab is the one I'm the least sure of. She had plenty of reason. They violated her Accords. Lea had her own reasons. She couldn't pay Bianca back for the Nemesis infection, but faerie debts never just go away. They are inherited. Odin had his own reasons. I've got my own ideas what they could be. They targeted Eb's family. Same with Harry and Susan. It was the entire goal of Martin's being. I assume everyone remembers "Murphy's" pronouncement. The Merlin's root and branch language has some nice symmetry to what actually happened. And I'd say the genocide of a target of the Oblivion War works just as well as obliviating them. If it doesn't, it will make it easier to erase all knowledge of them in the next few millennia.
[3]The question about Ivy, is neutral with respect to what? She is bound to her purpose, which is to win the Oblivion War, on behalf of humanity. That isn't a neutral purpose.
I think the whole point with the Archive is that it is supposed to be neutral in concept.No. The whole point of the Archive is to kill all monsters. (Obliviating here being the functional equivalent). Hell, even in the cover story as told by Harry and Luccio, the whole point of the Archive is to safeguard all human knowledge. Neutrality is just a means of helping the Archive survive to do it. And safeguarding all human knowledge is kind of the opposite of the point. Destroying certain human knowledge is the whole point of the Archive.
2. Harry often has to be spoon fed information. This was the case as far back as Grave Peril when Lea suggested he use the water to defeat the Nightmare. The truth is that Harry hadn't figured out that Marcone could help him. He needed to be told. That's why the Archive told him. It accomplished a piece her core mission.
Marcone is a neutral party under the Accords, just like a dozen others. Regarding neutrality, not specific power sets and personal histories, how are they different? Are they all physically incapable of acting in a non-neutral way? You are completely missing the point if you are not ignoring it. How does being a neutral party under the Accords mean that the Archive is "bound by neutrality" but doesn't mean that Marcone and the dozen others are not?Because they simply are not the same.. The Archive has it's own set of rules that it must abide by
There is a contradiction. Why would Ivy seek to end the Reds and not do so to the Whites. Dead is dead and murder is murder.I do not think the archive was actually more involved than that little bit of information she gave Harry but in the reality there is no contradiction. The reds were becomming more and more agressive, allied with outsiders and were disturbing everything. They made themselves into a priority. The whites are pretty good in not making themselves into a priority.
I do not think the archive was actually more involved than that little bit of information she gave Harry but in the reality there is no contradiction. The reds were becomming more and more agressive, allied with outsiders and were disturbing everything. They made themselves into a priority. The whites are pretty good in not making themselves into a priority.
And there was opportunity. Priority and opportunity. The whites are far more difficult to get rid off.
There is a contradiction. Why would Ivy seek to end the Reds and not do so to the Whites. Dead is dead and murder is murder.Where was the opportunity to end the Whites? And I would imagine she intends to. Eventually.
I would hardly call what she said to him being spoon fed.Harry often has to be told things he already knows for him to realize that the knowledge is applicable to the situation at hand. That's basically what Ivy did.
Her core mission? Are you suggesting that she is the one who "planned" little Maggie's kidnapping so Harry would destroy the Reds?No. I'm saying she knew if she gave pointed Harry to Marcone, Harry would destroy the Red Court. As to her core mission, what is the purpose of the Archive? Answer that question and you will know what her core mission is.
the Archive (and Ivy, the two aren’t really divisible)- Jim Butcher.
@kbrizzle: I'm not sure Ivy is separate enough from the Archive to "trick" it.
"Her mother was a seventeen -year- old girl who was in love and pregnant. She hated her mother for dying and cursing her to carry the Archive when she wanted to have her own life--and she hated the child for having a lifetime of freedom ahead of her. Ivy's mother killed herself rather than carry the Archive."
Where was the opportunity to end the Whites? And I would imagine she intends to. Eventually.It stands to reason, at least to me, that if she intended to, she would not make them a part of the conspiracy.
Telling him Marcone could help is giving him information. It is helping. It led directly to the destruction of the Red Court. Or is Ivy incapable of predicting that because she is completely unrelated to the Oracles?
I'm pretty sure that was her deliberately pushing the edges of what help she could give. She couldn't tell him directly, nor could she tell him, "Marcone has the info BTW". So she went with "Maybe ask someone you hate or something" and trusted Harry to know what she was getting at.
In short, it was Ivy doing exactly what Luccio was concerned about and trying to find loopholes/workarounds in the Archives Programming.
But hey, I'm sure that's nothing to worry about and won't come back to bite Harry in the slightest.
Well I mean, from all things we've learned, humans are strong because of Free Will. Maybe Ivy asserting the use of Free Will over the Archive will just make the Archive more capable of wiping out the bad guys.
It stands to reason, at least to me, that if she intended to, she would not make them a part of the conspiracy.She is not going to tell them.
I agree, I also think that is the source of the conflict for the Host and the Archive. It is at the heart of the "danger" Luccio was trying to explain to Harry in Small Favor. Humans have free will to act or decide, true, but it is also true that those decisions mostly have an emotional basis for them. This throws the Host in conflict with the Archive. Ivy on all kinds of emotional levels wanted to help Harry in Changes, but she was prevented by the Archive because of the rules it works under. I think the fact that she had Kincaid do most of the talking over the phone to Harry shows how it affected her emotionally. If Ivy had talked directly to Harry it would have been impossible for her in my opinion to keep her to keep emotionally remote from the fact that the Archive would not help.We have seen this before. Lea, the mothers, ....
In the end, Ivy did exert what free will she has to give Harry a hint that might help, I think she also benefited because she spared herself very human guilt if she hadn't helped at all. Which throws her in conflict with the Archive who'd rather she gave no hints at all. When this is all taking place with in one's head one can see where it would or could lead to madness.
It stands to reason, at least to me, that if she intended to, she would not make them a part of the conspiracy.Using them makes sense because it's a win-win. If the succeed, that's a win. If they die, that's a win.
Using them makes sense because it's a win-win. If the succeed, that's a win. If they die, that's a win.
Maybe the Archive puts no limits on the host other than the limits that knowing and understanding the truth puts on anyone.
"When she says she can't tell you, she is being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head."So unless someone is lying, giving Harry the little information she did was not easy.
We have seen this before. Lea, the mothers, ....
They all wanted to help Harry at some point and they couldn't because of their nature. Riddles and unclear conversation are the answer to that and as pythia the archive had a lot of experience in that way of giving information.
Using that loophole is what they do.
So unless someone is lying.Ivy is lying. Jim Butcher said so.
Ivy is lying. Jim Butcher said so.
It stands to reason, at least to me, that if she intended to (end the Whites), she would not make them a part of the conspiracy.
Of course Lara being Lara, she would create her own cells. Maybe have someone nonhuman on the payroll to have communications that Ivy can't see. One might think Vadderung might be a perfect keeper of secrets. Or maybe Papa Raith had a secure record keeping system that was blocked from Ivy.
Of course Lara being Lara, she would create her own cells. Maybe have someone nonhuman on the payroll to have communications that Ivy can't see ...
I have no idea. The point is that the Whites are murderers. Sexier than the Reds, I mean who wouldn't want to die in bed with a beautiful partner. But murder is murder and rape is rape, and that describes the main branch of the Whites. The short story seems to be a tonal shift on Jim's part.
However on the issue of neutrality a point is lost. Perhaps Archive's bias is towards non interference, rather than neutrality. She must know who Cowl is. And since he is calling in Outsiders it would seem to be in the interest of it's purpose to kill Cowl, or to reveal him so someone not connected to her could kill him. \shrug/ Anyway.
Yeah, I wonder if Jim has worked it out fully as of yet? Neutral in the sense that the Archive doesn't openly take sides. Yet supposedly it will alert Lara and Thomas to threats to take out, but not in it's name nor will it openly order it. The other point is the Archive aside from keeping the written memory of mankind also is the keeper of the memory of the dead.. At some point it decides whether or not to eliminate that memory thus wiping out totally whoever that was.. At least that is how I understand it.Historically the word neutral has had different interpretations by different people and nations. Jim can use all of them as it suits him.
Historically the word neutral has had different interpretations by different people and nations. Jim can use all of them as it suits him.