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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tbora on July 18, 2010, 05:12:19 PM
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Okay I was thinking the rules for pets (contructs and summons) are a bit clunky, as Fate does not really allow for specialization as far as that goes (But then very few systems make it fluid.) I was wondering, if someone could help me brainstorm some house rules that makes it easier to do as to make characters Binder not just playable, but viable.IE something to make contruct creation and demon summoning less demanding then it is in the current system.
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I don't think you need house rules, just spend a bunch of points on refinement and upgrade a real big focus or the like to give you that extra boost to control more critters. between that and aspects you should be able to hit "epics" with a bit of work and that's the goal no matter your mancy.
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I disagree, while I think that works fine for most things, not really for the construct summoning/binding, atleast that is what I have seen with what I have played IRL.
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really? where does the mechanical trouble for you lie? because a really souped up focus can get you quite the boost, like a +3 or more, if you really dump all your might into it. add into that the perfect binding agent (hair, name, etc) and you should be able to clear fairly medium hurdles reliably, in theory.
I'm asking because I'm still figuring this game out my ownself.
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The trouble for me is summoning greater constructs like Sue the Dinosaur.Unless your REALLY lucky it pretty much can't be done by a PC.Which doesn't really make sense to me as Dresden raised Sue pretty quickly witout much prep work at all.And to me, the rules should follow canon.
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Totally true Tbora, but I'd imagine a GM would rule Sue to be a plot device due to it's power. Still I know what you mean about the rules for summoning and constructs, they are a little vague and there aren't really any good examples, it's really more for NPC's I think which is a shame as it'd be nice for characters to have familiars.
Still I suppose they could simply be seen as extensions of the player (aspects, skills, stunts and powers; using the familiar as flavour to justify them) or they could take up enchanted item slots with some house rules perhaps?
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May not be exactly what you are looking for, but in the Hawaii game my GM, KOFFEYKID. came up with the Subordinate "stunts."
Subordinate: You may stat out a second character, this is a subordinate of yours, and is loyal to you unto death (consider it your own character). He may only have 3 refresh worth of stunts, and 15 skill points with a skill cap of Good (+3). His or Her High Concept must relate to you.
Advanced Subordinate: When you select this stunt, you may advance your subordinate by 3 refresh, and allot him or her 9 more skill points with a skill cap of Great (+4), you must use one of your aspects to describe your relationship with this subordinate.
I keep trying to get him to bump advanced up to 10 additional skill points instead of nine (25 is easier to work with than 24). And we know that these are stronger than a typical stunt, we just call them stunts so the pure mortals can use it.
We at one point had three people that were going to use the stunts: millionaire and bodyguard, cop and partner, surfer and literal dog.
If your talking literal pet, may I suggest using Deadmanwalking's thread (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18099.0.html). He has over 50 animals made, most things appropriate for a "pet" is toward the front pages.
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I was thinking more along the lines of a summoner character who is like Binder except instead of lots of weaker minions (and summoning enmass presents troubles on its own.) generally summons a more badass demon that wipes the floor with his enemies.
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There are all kinds of ways to deal with familiars/pets using the game system in place, but there isn't going to be a standardized way to do it because the method you use will vary by the type of flavor you want.
Examples of different ways to handle pets/familiars:
- A stunt, using normal stunt rules with pets as the flavor ex. Wolf Companion (Survival) - You have befriended a wolf that is faithful to you and follows your orders. When your wolf companion is with you, use survival instead of weapons for attacking.
- Summoning, without binding. You then use a social conflict to convince the summoned creature to help you in the way you want.
- Summoning + Binding. Use this if you want to have control over the creature you summon. Because of the way the turn economy works, this method is extremely powerful, and the high complexity needed is justified.
- Plot Device. This is how I'd handle Sue. Harry getting the word of Kemmler and consulting Lash about it gives the GM justification for giving Harry this nifty one time use help.
And more, which I'm sure I'll think of later.
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Again that works for some things, but not for others.
I am thinking of a character that brings about 10-15 refresh contructs demons.
EDIT: And does so regulary (though not multiple ones at the same time,)
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Uh...Summoning Sue is about a 5 shift effect, Binding her more like 8, assuming she didn't mind being bound (which, as an animal spirit, seems likely). And acquiring a drum is almost certainly a Declaration, as is getting a drummer. Toss on an FP or two and Harry can do this easily. Why is this so hard again?
Now Binding something like Sue long-term (or if it's willing to go to the wall to resist you) is much harder (like, Complexity 25+)...but so? You can get Complexity that high in an evening with a bit of legitimate effort.
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Again that works for some things, but not for others.
I am thinking of a character that brings about 10-15 refresh contructs demons.
EDIT: And does so regulary (though not multiple ones at the same time,)
I guess I just don't understand the problem. This is difficult, but not prohibitively so. A Thaumaturgist with lots of focus items for complexity in summoning/binding won't have a problem with it.
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This isn't quite what you're looking for, but you could create a character that regularly summons a demon to possess him using the Modular Abilities trapping and Beast change.
[+1] Human form
[-2] Ritual
[-1] Beast Change
[-7] Modular Abilities
This gives you the ability to cast powerful rituals as you can have a high conviction, lore and discipline but still take advantage of supernatural abilities like strength and speed by changing your skills when you beast change. Just pick a few 'demons' that you commonly change in to i.e. speedy winged demon, powerful bull-like demon and regenerating lizard-demon and you're set. Of course you don't have to cast a ritual to turn with this, but you could possibly get a +2 on human form if you have to create a ritual first in order to change.
Alternatively you could make the change an innate ability rather than a magical rite, allowing you to drop ritual and beast change which will give you more points to spend on supernatural powers, add beast change if you want to change skills up. It's not a pet but it could be a pretty powerful PC.
If you definitely want to summon the demons as separate creatures to yourself, I'd advise getting sponsored magic so that a) you can cast it at evocation speeds and b) you can summon more power by putting yourself in debt to your sponsor.
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A Thaumaturgist with lots of focus items for complexity in summoning/binding won't have a problem with it.
Or all the focus item slots upgraded into one uber item. burn 4 refinements for focus item slots and that's a +4 easy to one thing. (is that right?)
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No, actually, all you need is one refinement for a focused practicioner, none for a sorcerer/wizard. You'll have four focus items that way, and get the +4 to complexity. And if you are a sorcerer/wizard, you can spend extra refresh to go higher with specializations. Still, -3 refresh for ritual (Summoning/Binding) and a refinement is dead cheap to get a guy who can perform up to 9 complexity summoning/bindings on the fly. A small handful of tagged aspects, and you can just about guarantee you have the power you need to get a pretty powerful demon working for you.
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Could someone help me with a sponsored magic: Summoning Binding at the Speed of Evocation?
One of my ideas for such a character is someone who made a deal with a Demonlord (An Archangel strength being) for in return for services rendered (Favors) the Demon provides the right to call on the subordinates of the Demonlord in Downbelow's hierarchy along with there Names for calling them.
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Sent this to a couple of people via PM, posting it here to see if I could get some help on it sooner.
Hey I was wondering if you could help me price (and/or redo) this sponsored magic idea for my character
Sponsored Magic: Faustian Bargain (Looking for a better name)
Standard sponsored magic benefits. Faustian Bargain comes automatic, additional specializations in Summoning/Binding: +1 to control, +1 to complexity, stacking on top of any existing specializations.Grants Summoning/Binding at speed of evocation.By spending an FP the possessor can instinctively learn a Name of a Demon (think intellectus) from the sponsor to be able to summon at will.The stronger the Demon's Name the possessor wishes to learn the greater sponsor debt or amount of FP's required to be spend to Learn the name (One FP for every 5 refresh levels for the Demon's Power Level.)
Obviously it needs to be reworded, but I was trying to do a rough power leve demonic equivelent to Soulfire for summoning binding.
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Summoning and Binding is allready near brocken...
How to bind... (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17543.0.html)
If you allow someone to Summon and Bind something like the Scarecrow at Evocation speed... it would definitly be overpowered (all IMHO).
One of my ideas for such a character is someone who made a deal with a Demonlord (An Archangel strength being) for in return for services rendered (Favors) the Demon provides the right to call on the subordinates of the Demonlord in Downbelow's hierarchy along with there Names for calling them.
I made such an Char. (without Sponsored Magic aka. Summoning at Evocation Speed). IMHO in an normal group to powerfull...
Here another try of an Summoning Character, this one with more justification for the social side of Summoning and Binding.
High Aspect: Mortal General for the War Department of the Chinese Hell as described in this books (http://www.webscription.net/p-936-snake-agent.aspx)
Trouble: Stupid Orders
Other Aspects: Demons under my Command
Marked by Power -1
Item of Power: Scepter of Command (Spear) +2
Human Form +1
(when using the Item, the Gerneral shows full body (glowing) Tatoos which proclaim his allegiance to the War Department)
Ritual: Summoning and Binding -2
Refinement x 2 -2 (4 Extra Focus Item Slots = 6 Item Slots) +5 Complexity +1 Controll
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Total -1 Refresh
Refinement -1 (2 Focus Item Slots converted into 4 Enchanted Item Slots)
Physical Immunity (only against Mortal Magic) -3
Supernatural Recovery -4
Catch: Wood +3
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Total -1 Refresh
Lawbreaker First (multiple times) -2
Total Refresh Cost of Char. -9
Summoned Item Crafter:
-3 Thaumaturgy +1 Item Crafting Power (Focus Items +2 Wards Complexity)
-21 Refinement
+6 Item Frequency,
+5 Item Power,
+5 Wards Complexity
+4 Wards Controll, +4 Transformation Complexity
+3 Transformation Controll, +3 Divination Complexity
+2 Divination Controll, +2 Summoning Complexity, +2 Summoning Controll, +2 Conjuration Complexity
+1 Conjuration Controll, +1 Transportation Complexity, +1 Transportaion Controll, +1 Veils Complexity
-2 Inhuman Strenght
-2 Inhuman Thoughness
-2 Inhuman Recovery
+3 Catch: Wood
Skills:
Superb +5: Lore, Resourcess
Great +4: Discipline, Conviction
The General orders his Magic Items by this Demon (and his Home is warded by this Demon).
Tai Chi clothes of hellish Protection (Block +10 or Armor +5 / 7 uses per session).
Silk gloves of Sudden painfull Death (to hit with Guns, Damage +8 / 9 uses per session).
Kukri of Dimensional Rending (opens door into the NeverNever +6 effect / 11 uses per session).
Facemask of Skulking (Veil +8 / 9 uses per session)
Bodyguard/Guide in the NeverNever
-4 Supernatural Speed
-2 Supernatural Strenght
-4 Supernatural Recovery
+3 Catch: Wood
-8 Physical Immunity
Catch +2: Taoistic holy relicts
-1 Claws
-1 Flesh Mask
Skills:
Superb +5: Lore, Awareness
Great +4: Fists, Endurance
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Just how many refresh is that guy O.o
And I disagree, I would have something like the scarecrow be one of the Summoners Big Guns.
Not something he pulls out all that often, but more something if he needs to go war.After all, its still taxing for it.In regards to your thread I am more inclined towards Deadmans view on summoning/binding then your own in anycase.
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I have looked at it, and looked at it, with like no rules for binding and determining the refresh level of constructs/summons its kind of hard to figure out how to do this, the rules put together by Korwin seem kind off to me.
I'd really like some good imput on this...
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I think Korwin has pretty definitively answered on this, though you're right in that the rules for summoning and binding are particularly complicated. (Check out the how to bind link if you haven't already as it gives a few good examples)
To be honest I think the refresh amount and abilities for the demons needs to be decided between yourself and the GM. For instance Korwin's character had a particularly vicious magical crafter that would allow the PC access to powerful enchanted items without pay for the skills needed to use them which, if I were the GM, I wouldn't allow.
I'd personally limit the refresh of the demons you can summon to your own refresh, thinking that your character wouldn't have been given more powerful demon names than he could safely control (or perhaps I'd allow one extra powerful combat demon with a higher refresh, with the risk that he may escape his bindings and go on a rampage).
Really it's all about maximising your ability to summon, taking either ritual or sponsored magic and lots of refinements for extra item slots, then creating a focus item that allows you to cast complex spells straight away.
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The Sponsored Magic looks reasonable and balanced...except for the Name learning, which is divergent from most other equivalent rules, and I find distinctly wonky. I'm not sure what I'd do about it to make it work better, though...
Korwin and I discussed this in the thread where the Demon General is from, so I'm not gonna re-open that discussion here.
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Here is the write up for the Sponsored Magic as of the rewrite:
Sponsored Magic – Faustian Bargain: Standard sponsored magic benefits. • Faustian Bargain comes automatic, additional specializations in Summoning/Binding: +1 to control, +1 to complexity, stacking on top of any existing specializations. • Grants Summoning/Binding at speed and methods of evocation • (Flavor - The Sponsor provides the name for the Demon Summoned which is reflected as the Sponsor Debt when used in summoning higher end refresh demons)
Deadman, can you help me put together a Demon Summoner for a character?
Its my standard bit 18 refresh, 60 skill points, capped at Fantastic.
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Not sure if it would help any here, but in one of my campaigns one of my players made a deal with a denarian for hellfire. One of the major things he wanted the hellfire to do was to be able to summon demons at the speed of evocation. So how we decided to do it was to make it as such:
no name is required to call the demon as that would be part of the lore in thaumaturgy and your sponsor handles that (though having a name certainly could provide bonus's). Then whenever he summoned he could do it three ways mainly. First was he cast the binding first and gave it a shift to duration (to make it sorta hang in the air) then he would cast the summoning and poof trapped creature, though it requires two turns to do it like that and the binding is almost always short term (like a mild). The second way was to make the summoning and binding the same spell basically but this inevitably made it alot tougher and thus the creatures summoned were almost always weaker by necessity. The third was (generally for sponsor debt) he could declare that he was serving his sponsor intrest meaning that the creatures he summoned would serve him automatically cause their boss man told them to. This way he could summon fairly tough demons really quickly (but then he inevitably ended up serving his sponsors intrests very soon).
That was a bit long but i found that method worked really well for summoning and binding at the speed of evocation, it made the summoning either difficult, which is always intresting for battle, or costly which is always interesting for story.
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Thanks for that, but I kind of find that a bit unbalanced, and its not really what I am looking for as far what I want for this character.
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Thanks for that, but I kind of find that a bit unbalanced, and its not really what I am looking for as far what I want for this character.
see i dont really find it unbalanced as it's kinda ridiculously easy to get rid of/prevent summoned creatures. A circle (even one made by a regular mortal) can do it. A counter spell can do it (the magic animating the creature vanish and it returns to ectoplasm) plus the creatures specific weakness's. Plus the summoner has to be able to relay their commands to their pet to get their pet to do nearly anything.
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So here is what I have got so far:
[-3] Evocation
[-3] Thaumaturgy
[-2] Sponsored Magic - Faustian Bargain: Standard sponsored magic benefits. • Faustian Bargain comes automatic, additional specializations in Summoning/Binding: +1 to control, +1 to complexity, stacking on top of any existing specializations. • Grants Summoning/Binding at speed and methods of evocation • (Flavor - The Sponsor provides the name for the Demon Summoned which is reflected as the Sponsor Debt when used in summoning higher end refresh demons)
[-1] The Sight
[-0] Soulgaze
[-0] Wizard's Constitution
I figure the rest would be refinements for item slots to help with a really big focus item, and then refinements to improve his capabilities for Summoning Binding.Plus maybe a couple lawbreakers (1st)
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Just how many refresh is that guy O.o
Submerged
And I disagree, I would have something like the scarecrow be one of the Summoners Big Guns.
Not something he pulls out all that often, but more something if he needs to go war.After all, its still taxing for it.In regards to your thread I am more inclined towards Deadmans view on summoning/binding then your own in anycase.
But that doenst change the fact, that he can summon and bind the scarecrow...
I have looked at it, and looked at it, with like no rules for binding and determining the refresh level of constructs/summons its kind of hard to figure out how to do this, the rules put together by Korwin seem kind off to me.
I'd really like some good imput on this...
As far as I can see, my interpretation is Rules as Written.
(I should mention, that I use an HR to limit summoning).
Another solution would be to port in Summoning rules from other FATE games (like Legends of Anglerre), but then you would need to introduce minions-rules...
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Again, I don't see any issues with binding the Scrowcrow, its strong.Really strong.
My question to you:
So what?
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Actually, thinking about it, depending on how one interprets it's Physical Immunity, you might not be able to keep a Scarecrow in a Circle long enough to bind it. The Binding itself would work, in theory, as a Mental Attack, so that'd work...but the Circle to entrap it is a Physical thing and it might just be able to walk through it. Or at least batter it down before you can bind it (since the Ward can by definition not damage it).
That leaves aside the possibility of Mab becoming annoyed that you're stealing her pet assassins, of course. And the difficulty of getting a greater Fetch's True Name.
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The whole thing about the Scarecrow is just used as an example (for high end refresh creatures), not for the Fetch in and of itself :P
But yeah I see your point.Just so I don't derail the topic, I am going to move my demon summoner help bit to a new thread.