ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on July 19, 2017, 06:02:45 PM
-
Were they destroyed when Archangel was attacked?
The definition I found from urban dictionary:
1. A group of the most challenging guys around, merciless conscienceless heavies just who beat people up into the service of a boss or king
Sounds like a group that I'd like to see Harry meet up with. They were involved with taking down Kemmler. I wonder if they were the ones who helped Eb in Changes?
-
Yes, they were. Everyone at Archangel was killed when it was attacked.
-
Yes, they were. Everyone at Archangel was killed when it was attacked.
In universe, its been over 10 years since the battle of Archangel. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a new brute squad running around, and we just haven't heard of them because Harry wasn't invited to join.
-
In universe, its been over 10 years since the battle of Archangel. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a new brute squad running around, and we just haven't heard of them because Harry wasn't invited to join.
They call them Wardens these days. I have a feeling the distinction was more prevalent in Peacetime when the Wardens are theoretically more of a Law Enforcement and Investigative Force as opposed to a focused Military bruiser unit.
-
Also, "Brute Squad" doesn't appear to be a formal title for a specifically-made group. When Bob uses the term, it's lowercase. The guys at Archangel might have been tougher than the average wizard, but it's not like a SWAT unit that has to be refilled and reestablished.
If there's still an analogue, it's probably the old guard Wardens that you usually see with Ancient Mai and the Senior Council (Warden Scandinavian-Name-Harry-Keeps-Making-Up, for instance).
-
Also, "Brute Squad" doesn't appear to be a formal title for a specifically-made group. When Bob uses the term, it's lowercase. The guys at Archangel might have been tougher than the average wizard, but it's not like a SWAT unit that has to be refilled and reestablished.
If there's still an analogue, it's probably the old guard Wardens that you usually see with Ancient Mai and the Senior Council (Warden Scandinavian-Name-Harry-Keeps-Making-Up, for instance).
Good points. It could also simply be a group of protoge's that Simon had collected, something informal that died with him. If a senior council member wanted a more active/formidable group that acted outside established Warden Chain of Command, I could easily see that happening (to one degree of Openness or another, mostly due to the current politics of the SC).
Arguably Eb has done the same thing...
-
If the brut squad was an official part of the wardens, the lore they used in the combat magics would most likely be preserved. Depending on how desperate the council becomes, they might share it more widely.
-
If the brut squad was an official part of the wardens, the lore they used in the combat magics would most likely be preserved. Depending on how desperate the council becomes, they might share it more widely.
I doubt that is the case, based on how they were lamenting the loss of their "Vampire Expert". If the knowledge were preserved it wouldnt have been a concern, no?
-
I know that not everybody has read the Paranet Papers (book 3 of the RPG) or considers them canon, but if you're interested in Simon, it's really worth reading.
From that source, I got the impression that the "brute-squad" was sort of an assembly of Simon's apprentices. Simon was a harsh teacher and demanded a lot of personal loyalty and obedience from his apprentices. It would be more akin to a private magic school (a very strict one, hence the brute thing maybe) than a military unit or an official institution of the WC.
-
I know that not everybody has read the Paranet Papers (book 3 of the RPG) or considers them canon, but if you're interested in Simon, it's really worth reading.
From that source, I got the impression that the "brute-squad" was sort of an assembly of Simon's apprentices. Simon was a harsh teacher and demanded a lot of personal loyalty and obedience from his apprentices. It would be more akin to a private magic school (a very strict one, hence the brute thing maybe) than a military unit or an official institution of the WC.
Fwiw, everythign Ive heard about the Paranet papers is that the pure story elements (like the Simon stuff you mention) was supposedly straight from Jim. So despite the RPG being classified as a similar but alternate universe (because it had to hard-quantify some things before major reveals in the novels informed on them, and because Billy doesnt /actually/ know every single secret) I personally feel comfortable accepting a lot of it (including the Simon info) as valid cannon. Which I suppose means I should read it at some point :P
-
My thought was that it was a group of Wardens that was more or less like Special Forces compared to the regular army. A bunch of them, very powerful or skilled, that take the field en masse, rather than one at a time. The ones they send out when they really need to do some damage.
-
My thought was that it was a group of Wardens that was more or less like Special Forces compared to the regular army. A bunch of them, very powerful or skilled, that take the field en masse, rather than one at a time. The ones they send out when they really need to do some damage.
That was my guess as well. Also doing less of the Warden peacetime work: the investigation, the showing up to intimidate new practitioners regarding the Laws. I think there was mention of regular inspections at places like Bock Ordered Books.
-
Wasn't Dumorne an apprentice of Petrovitch's?
-
I always wondered if those that attacked, stole away with his gathered research. That or if Simon was a bad guy, he hid it away. As the council expert on the vampire courts, his magics would be a threat or a boon against them.
Simon lore was his personal research, while the brute squad lore is the co operative attemp between multiple magic users. So more likely to be shared amongst others more free ly.
-
You would think, that as part of the investigation into what happened, they'd have gathered all the "magical" stuff so it wouldn't fall into the hands of mortal authorities.
-
Wasn't Dumorne an apprentice of Petrovitch's?
Yes. One of my personal theories is that's why Petrovitch became Cowl.
-
Wasn't Dumorne an apprentice of Petrovitch's?
Yup. I'd assume that, given the description, it wouldnt be uncommon for members of the brute to get recruited by the Wardens. They've always said that its a relatively small percentage of members that are actually suited to Combat. And even with the wartime losses, this might still be the biggest the Council has ever been. Per WOJ, in the old days a given nation was lucky to produce one wizard every three generations, back before the human population started to explode.
-
"Brute Squad" was just Bob referencing The Princess Bride, as far as I can tell. In my head, I picture them as heavy bruisers. I think, if there is a new "one," they'd be the wardens Ebenezer had with him in Turn Coat, when he was waiting for word on Morgan's location to go take him down. Basically, just combat veterans who know how to bring the pain really well. Since the other thread got me thinking about the Codex Alera, I'd compare them to Knights Ignus—devastating, but very small in number.
-
"Brute Squad" was just Bob referencing The Princess Bride, as far as I can tell. In my head, I picture them as heavy bruisers. I think, if there is a new "one," they'd be the wardens Ebenezer had with him in Turn Coat, when he was waiting for word on Morgan's location to go take him down. Basically, just combat veterans who know how to bring the pain really well. Since the other thread got me thinking about the Codex Alera, I'd compare them to Knights Ignus—devastating, but very small in number.
Damn, all this time and I entirely forgot the term was only used on stage by Bob, I thought it had been mentioned by a council-member in SK or somewhere, but nope.
-
"Brute Squad" was just Bob referencing The Princess Bride, as far as I can tell. In my head, I picture them as heavy bruisers. I think, if there is a new "one," they'd be the wardens Ebenezer had with him in Turn Coat, when he was waiting for word on Morgan's location to go take him down. Basically, just combat veterans who know how to bring the pain really well. Since the other thread got me thinking about the Codex Alera, I'd compare them to Knights Ignus—devastating, but very small in number.
I felt it was a reference to The Princess Bride as well. Harry seems like the right kind of person to be on a Brute Squad. Not the most skilled wizard but can hit really hard.
-
With the caveat that nobody in power would trust him to be on the Brute Squad.
-
Well, if you take that reference literally, the brute squad was just hired to get this one job done and it consisted of - I don't want to insult Fezzik, he's one of my favorite characters - people like Fezzik. ;)
-
With the caveat that nobody in power would trust him to be on the Brute Squad.
Well from my understanding of what a Brute squad is, they don't seem to be trustworthy people. There is the Brute Squad from the Princess Bride, who were just hired thugs.
There is the urban dictionary definition: 1. A group of the most challenging guys around, merciless conscienceless heavies just who beat people up into the service of a boss or king.
The dictionary definition of brute: a savagely violent person or animal
So Harry does seem like that to someone from the White Council. He's the type they would call on when they really need help and are willing to risk bringing him on. A person you call last, and with a great deal of hesitation.
-
Yes, they were. Everyone at Archangel was killed when it was attacked.
Everyone except ;)
-
Well from my understanding of what a Brute squad is, they don't seem to be trustworthy people. There is the Brute Squad from the Princess Bride, who were just hired thugs.
Yeah, but do you really see the White Council getting together a bunch of untrustworthy people all the time? I'm pretty sure the term was just Bob's sarcastic term for a shock troop squad or something like that, more official.
-
Everyone except ;)
Buggerall, I've never seen it put like that, but if that is true, then by the gods, Harry needs to make inappropriate American Idol jokes when he finds out.
-
Yeah, but do you really see the White Council getting together a bunch of untrustworthy people all the time? I'm pretty sure the term was just Bob's sarcastic term for a shock troop squad or something like that, more official.
Or it could reflect what Kemmler or Justin really thought about them.
-
Yeah, but do you really see the White Council getting together a bunch of untrustworthy people all the time?
No, it was a sign of their desperation against Kemmler, imo
-
Want to bet if they did gather a group of untrustworthy magical users, that the only warden they would saddle with leading the would be Harry? That way if it fail as most would believe it would, instant scape goat.
-
Want to bet if they did gather a group of untrustworthy magical users, that the only warden they would saddle with leading the would be Harry? That way if it fail as most would believe it would, instant scape goat.
haha you can be sure. On top of that they would probably hope that one of them killed Harry.
-
No, it was a sign of their desperation against Kemmler, imo
Kemmler's long dead. Why would they still have a brute squad if it was just a sign of their desperation against him?
-
Kemmler's long dead. Why would they still have a brute squad if it was just a sign of their desperation against him?
Don't know if they even had the brute squad when Archangel was attacked. Only mentioned when they were involved with Kemmler I think. In the Dresdenverse there is also ways to ensure trust. It's pretty dangerous for a wizard to make an agreement, and then go back on their word. So if there was/is a Brute Squad, and they are as their name implies, I'd guess that they had to give their word to not betray the ones they fought alongside.
-
Why would they still have a Brute Squad?
Well, Simon was the Council's vampire expert.
Simon had a "brute squad"
Could it be that the Wouncil knew of the upcoming Rampire hostilities and were preparing for it?
-
Why would they still have a Brute Squad?
Well, Simon was the Council's vampire expert.
Simon had a "brute squad"
Could it be that the Wouncil knew of the upcoming Rampire hostilities and were preparing for it?
The only reference we have to the "brute squad" as a thing is about Kemmler, so signs point to "no."
If the White Council knew about the upcoming hostilities, they wouldn't have gotten spanked so bad in the early days of the war.
-
The only reference we have to the "brute squad" as a thing is about Kemmler, so signs point to "no."
If the White Council knew about the upcoming hostilities, they wouldn't have gotten spanked so bad in the early days of the war.
That's true. Not only that but Archangel sounds like it may have been a type of military arm of the White Council which is why it was the first thing hit by the Red Court. Taking out the more unconventional/extreme weapons of the Council.
-
That's true. Not only that but Archangel sounds like it may have been a type of military arm of the White Council which is why it was the first thing hit by the Red Court. Taking out the more unconventional/extreme weapons of the Council.
I don't think so. It was the home of a Senior Council member who happened to be the WC Vampire expert. There were other wizards there. Makes it a good enough target in itself.
-
It would be nice to have a Dirty Dozen, wizard style, mission that involves Harry and many other of the Council's more troublesome wizards.
-
It would be nice to have a Dirty Dozen, wizard style, mission that involves Harry and many other of the Council's more troublesome wizards.
I was always under the impression that the vast majority of White Council wizards towed the line pretty well, and that Harry was very much an outlier.
Which opens a more interesting possibility -- a Dirty Dozen, wizard style mission that involves Harry and suspected warlocks.
-
I wonder how many potential or accused magic users are out there, deemed to be warlocks. Imagine if the council offers sometching like a pardon if they agree to aid the wardens in the conflict.
-
I was always under the impression that the vast majority of White Council wizards towed the line pretty well, and that Harry was very much an outlier.
I'm sure that's true, to a large extent. The other outliers, though, would probably be the very people who either eventually end up on the Senior Council...or dead. JB has implied that Arthur, Eb, and Injun Joe were just as wild as Harry in their misspent youth, around the time of the French and Indian War.
Also, have you noticed that a lot of Wizards with 'questionable' talents end up as Wardens? Harry is one example. Steed is another. Steed is a chronomancer whose time talents are very useful to the Council, but also press close against the Fifth Law. So they made him a Warden where he could be useful and at the same time the other Wardens could keep a close eye on him. I'd hazard a suspicion that a lot of Wizards with 'borderline' powers, in Law terms, end up as Wardens.
One of the possibilities Harry saw in Molly's soulgaze was Molly as a Warden. Molly has borderline talents in mind magic and mental manipulation, so she's both a possible source of trouble and a good candidate for recruitment as a Warden.
I'll bet we'd find a whole bunch of Wizards with 'edgy' powers if we went through the ranks of the Wardens and the Senior Council.
-
I wonder how many potential or accused magic users are out there, deemed to be warlocks. Imagine if the council offers sometching like a pardon if they agree to aid the wardens in the conflict.
If things got desperate enough, I could imagine the Council authorizing that. Dropping the Doom of Damocles, or diluting it, and giving the survivors 'one more chance' without it.
I see just one big practical problem, though. While there might be 'pardonable' offenders out there, people who broke a Law and haven't fallen all the way into warlockhood, some of them will have, and a 'suicide squad' wouldn't want the latter, they'd be a bigger threat to the team than to the enemy, at best.
So the Council would have to made a determination of the salvageability of the candidates, and then what happens to the ones who flunk? So I can't picture fugitives responding to a possible amnesty offer that might also include a death sentence.
But if you already had a group of captive Lawbreakers who looked like they might be worth a risk, in an extreme emergency...yeah, I could maybe see the SC authorizing it.
-
I wonder how many potential or accused magic users are out there, deemed to be warlocks. Imagine if the council offers sometching like a pardon if they agree to aid the wardens in the conflict.
I think Hannah Ascher could kinda fit the bill at least when she was fighting for The Order of St. Giles.
In terms of a Brute Squad, I like the idea as well although I imagine it to be half a dozen wizards at most if only so every character could get decent screen time. It's hard to spread that across a dozen characters.
I've always wondered why Wizards don't team up together more, I mean it's implied with operations and battles in the war, but still you'd think with hundreds of years to form an organisation they'd have more systematic back up.