Most mental whammy require blood or body fluid. So the circle is useless. Or contact with the skin or eyes so in this case maybe?
Huh? I thought Circles are fool proof against magical attacks?
Dresden magic-rules are whatever Jim Butcher says they are, obviously.Dresden rules are hard and fast. Just not seeing it all. However, I'd challenge any discrepancy to be ran through my theorums on the matter lol.
I'm pretty sure that blood/etc provides a link that a circle doesn't break -- it's part of you; so "part of you" is outside the circle!
It’s the blood of the person making the circle which empowers it.that implies they're really just enclosing a space as part of themselves 🤔 and that all magic really does come from within 😂
Several times in the series Harry gets the “mind magic… mental whammy” attempted against him. It’s magic… so… wouldn’t a quick magic circle be a nice quick block to such efforts?
Hold on… Corpsetaker didn’t have any of Harry’s blood in Dead Beat. Malvora didn’t have any of Harry’s blood in White Knight. How could Harry’s blood matter?
I don't recall that Harry had a protective circle up, in DB, vs. Corpsetaker's attempt on his mind... he was simply running away when she nailed him.
Was there any Malvora attempt in WK upon Harry's mind, when he had a circle raised?
So having / not-having his blood doesn't indicate blood's efficacy at bypassing a circle.
He didn’t. I’m asking why he didn’t attempt to put one up and if he did… if it would have blocked the mental Whammies. If it wouldn’t have… why wouldn’t the circle protect him?
Summoning circles areand require a pentagram inside, and are powered by the practitioner.citations needed. Not every wizard hold to pentagrams like Harry and not every circle used to summon would have them. And not every circle has a living practitioner attached either. Am thinking its implied in the original toot scene he powers the circle with a bit of his own energy or something 🤔
They either create it physically, or more dangerously hold it in their mind, in either event this is something a practitioner does. Butters realised as a non-practitioner he could make a simple circle.yes? Though that's not a summoning circle per se.
Which is exactly the point I am making if you read all my posts.no it's not 🙄 and no I'm not 🙄 give me about 5 hours and I'll take apart every comment of yours in this thread piece by piece my friend.
Please stop trying to selectively quote me out of context again.
I think circles are a further protection of the White God for humanity, like thresholds or dawn break, if that is so then working from that premise they are proof against supernatural intervention.And farther, how would TWG, who's agents have no power over outside,(can't even see or protect against it per PT/BG)manage to make said outside, beyond reality, his domain or anywhere he hold power,and manage to uniformly make something apparently block all outsiders, who don't react to reality🤷♂️ wheres your thoughts process or are you just wagon? How do circles working equate prevention of supernatural intervention? After all, certain classes of NN are not held by traditional circles, including demon lord's. Are.. demon lord's part of TWGs entourage to come and go as HE pleases? Or is it their own willpower that lets them do so and it's merely a contrivance of most of the NN not possessing of Soul/choice to do so? Would not Nemesis, who allows them to break this, automatically break circles by default like a Demon lord?
The WG is the champion of Free Will for humanity, he closed off the outsiders, limited the power level of gods etc in the mortal realm, and gave humanity protections against the lesser supernatural predators, making a more level playing field for humanity to evolve, not to stultify or seek to rely upon divine intervention to solve its problems.I could pick up any monotheistic religious book and say it holds the answers to creation, but that doesn't really get to the meat of why they all disagree. Same here.
When the Denarians arose to upset that balance, a counter balance was created, the Swords. Uriel has schooled Harry on the balance between the infernal and the Devine and even Harry realises this now.well actually...
Again there are different types of circle and circles of protection which provide protection from outside supernatural agency,yes?
and cut off power of practitioners within the circle are different to those used for summoning and binding.prove it. Define WHY they are different and how. Because I already took apart the first point of a pentagram, not all wizards use pentagrams. And to elaborate on the other, Merlin's circles still up. He's not alive necessarily though. And as I said, I do believe the original explanation in SF has a bit about toot actually empowering it himself, the blood just closed the loop.
Binder used the latter to summon his grey men, Molly used the former to cut Binder off from his power rendering them ectoplasm.and both were round circles note, no pentagram for Binder. And what's the difference? Seems to me after cutting him off she could have used it as a summoning circle🤷♂️
In Dead Beat, the ghoul was right there... it probably could have taken him out before he had time to form a circle, but even if he got it up, I think they're physical-enough to just walk right through a Circle and mess him up with claws & teeth.
Harry has *never* (that I recall) tried a Circle against ghouls (presumably because it wouldn't work).
But I think that the magic of Capiorcorpus would be blocked by a magic-circle; I just don't think DB ever offered circumstances where Harry could usefully try it.
FWIW, a circle certainly blocked the whammy from the Mind Fog in Summer Knight.
yes? Though that's not a summoning circle per se.Harry summoned Uriel into a mental circle.
Harry summoned Uriel into a mental circle.that's not contrary to my point.
... Summoning circles are a different matter and require a pentagram inside, and are powered by the practitioner.I'm pretty sure Harry summoned Toot with a simple, non-Pentagram'ed circle.
Harry summoned Uriel into a mental circle.
And Uriel response was to tell him 'LOL that's cute'.that's true. And we do have another example of no circle summoning now that I think about it. The phages. Which was more through sympathetic thoughts.
The Circle isn't there to summon the creature, it's so that whatever you summon doesn't eat your face.
There is one Uriel in the Multiverse - he exists simultaneously in every universe. A circle exists in one universe. You would have to replicate the circle in every universe for it to work. Cute indeed.Harry ALSO contained lashes coin in a circle, successfully I might add. The totality of what they are is stuck in those coins. Are you arguing fallen are not multiversal but angels are? I don't think it'd make a difference, if he actually contained him, his totality would be stuck. The proof is in his transubstantiation. What happens in one reality effects him in all reality, effectively Uriel only existed as Michael and his human form in the entire multiverse at that time.
The Phages summoning was different, there was already a weak spot to their lair in the NeverNever via Pell’s Theatreyes and while they used that weakening to cross over originally with Molly they didn't need to cross there, and didn't in fact. It's almost like the comparison between the weakened veil and those damaged by drugs or mental illness being more susceptible to possession?(and while I'm on the subject that's another parallel to the idea TWG is the 'center' of reality, and it's boundaries are where his embodiment ends)
and I suspect Cowl had a hand in creating that, it made a nice direct route from Chicago to Arctis Tor for weaker magic users to exploit for the attack on Arctis Tor and to get to Demonreach via the Gatekeepers access in Arctis Tor. It made a nice back door for Nameless to get back to his practice in Chicago, at least until Mab closed it off to him.so nameless, as cowl helped orchestrate an attack on AT and not only did Mab never twig to it, but never sought out the Truth for her own balancing act? Impossible. If she can watch Chicago like she does then no doubt she's aware of exactly what happens in her own domain. And that alone puts an end to nameless being cowl really.
It was more akin to what Simon did in Zoo Day, which come to think of it was also likely orchestrated by Cowl, he probably keep MyShadow/Ash on a short leash.Simon's dead. Unless he's ALSO cowl for you? Would seem to be very conflicting theories though.
We’re talking angels and Archangels, no evidence the latter exist as a single entity across the multiverse WOJ to the latter.not is there evidence they are not. In fact, said woj doesn't differentiate that I remember. So your taking a broadly known fact about angels, even if it's just archangels specifically talked about, and deciding off rip the inverse must apply to regular angels. There's really no logic in that other than it's your opinion then?
When Uriel trsnsubstantiate he did so in one oniverse, his grace was still multi-universal.yes, and it existed precisely as big as wide as the existence of one mortal on one planet. Uriel's consciousness, introduced to a body, isn't interchangeable. It isn't replaceable by lue of him being multiversal. That's a core part of Uriel. His grace might be multiversal, but only one person in the whole multiverse, in one reality, was wearing it. Hence what he did with it actually mattered. If other Uriel's were still wearing it in other universes they'd have all been connected to Michael and Michael couldn't have made his collective self fall, which was expected what he COULD do.
Pell’s was next door to the Splattercon Hotel, the Eldest masquerading as the Scarecrow didn’t need the proximity to the weak point.the eldest is stronger? Go figure. But unless you wanna go through and try to prove he wasn't piggybacking off of Molly, I don't see how this actually disagrees.
Read The Law it is expressly stated that Nameless was barred from Winter following the attack. Nameless won’t have left enough evidence for Mab in her aspect of Justice to try him but her suspicions are enough to do this. She gets evidence it’s open season on Nameless, frankly I am surprised she didn’t put Harry on it.can't read it can I?
I mean’t Austin in Zoo day, which you obviously realised. I have told you before about trying to twist my words. This is why people do not like answering your questions directly because you troll them. Which is why I have reported you to the moderators.oh no, you actually misspoke and since I've read zoo day precisely once I assumed you were doing what you usually do(though now you remind me that entire story supports my theory, though not your insistence there are two entirely different kinds of circles or anything else I can think of ATM) and making an offcolor or disjointed reply in order to be cheeky, something you've done more than once and I've called you out directly on doing. Snide comments, half arguments and misdirection are your M.O. You've been screwing with me trying to get me to cross some line so you CAN report me guy.(something that was EG's M.O as well as a few others. If it didn't work then... definition of insanity isn't it?)Funny my response has been to be more like you, and you think that's reportable 😂 If they can't see that, if you can really hoodwink them, then I'll just go to the JBIT and post 🤷♂️ nobody's allowed to act like you've been there, and it's a much wider and audience that certainly enjoys my theories and garners Jim's attention too.
And Uriel response was to tell him 'LOL that's cute'.Uriel told him it was a nice circle; we can take it as one of the unambiguous truths of the Dresdenverse, because Angel. Harry made a solid circle, even if it was only mental.
... The Circle isn't there to summon the creature, it's so that whatever you summon doesn't eat your face.
... we do have another example of no circle summoning now that I think about it. The phages ...The phages -- at least some of them -- were sent, not summoned.
The phages -- at least some of them -- were sent, not summoned.all of this is indeed explained in PG. Though, and I could be wrong it's been a few years since a proper re-read, I think even when talking about someone sending them they still refer to 'summoner' vs beacon?
Plus there was all sorts of weakening going on -- not just Pell's theater, but Splattercon!!! itself, all that fear; it makes the area susceptible to invasion by phages.
Last but not least: mirrors & reflective surfaces. The Fetches can use them as gateways, no Summoning nor Sending needed. That was one of the clues Harry used to pin down that they were Fetches.ahh true, true. I hadn't considered that in that direction.
But -- even when they were summoned -- we don't really know the details. Could have been a very-strong practitioner, using a mental circle. Could have been someone with a can of silly-string making a quick-but-physical circle. Could have been Maeve or Mab, Summoning them by simple right, as a Queen of Winter.neither do we know they did 🤷♂️ so that's kinda a balanced point there. Actually, I think I know why they came now I'm thinking about it. And it never really comes down to sent or called, but because they could, and perhaps that is their whole purpose.
... I think even when talking about someone sending them they still refer to 'summoner' vs beacon?Yes, I think a "beacon" (as Harry used it) just meant the biggest, brightest, tastiest bit of fear the fetches can detect; but they're already in the mortal realm, or they cannot go after such a "beacon." I don't know that it was even a formal bit of wizard-jargon (like "veil" for invisibility-magic)... Harry's very-fond of just calling stuff by whatever term comes to mind, and "beacon" struck me as an instance of that..
... Am still thinking the mirrors were the link, as in actual mechanism used to cross like an item in a ritual almost, they focused the energy into one point better.(in the presumed order of operations for summoning, the mirrors just take the place of the circle anyway actually)Though, they're just part of fetch attributes too ...
... neither do we know they did 🤷♂️ so that's kinda a balanced point there ...Not a "balanced" point: I am alleging that there is no point at all to be made from our info on Fetch-summoning. None of the summons' happened "onscreen," nor did Harry find any summoning-circles. We have precisely zero info about who summoned any of the fetches, or how. All theories on Fetch-summoning are based upon implied data only, and multiple theories about it are more-or-less equally-strongly (or equally-weakly) supported.
... So the fetches go fetch Nfectees and then eat the portion actually Nfected, which is why the 'final fetch' seemed so different ...I don't think the Fetches have enough magical mojo to handle that. Gatekeeper is among the best in all creation at spotting Outsiders: if Mab could station Fetches at the Gates, and get a better hit-rate than she gets from the Gatekeeper (or even just give him occasional time to pursue other Outsider incursions, in other places) she'd be doing that; but we haven't a hint of it.
Yes, I think a "beacon" (as Harry used it) just meant the biggest, brightest, tastiest bit of fear the fetches can detect; but they're already in the mortal realm, or they cannot go after such a "beacon."your probably not thinking about the same scene I think, though THAT scene actually supports this. Harry sent the fetches back to the source of the summoning, that source WAS molly. They might have been sent but the sender needed a sympathetic node, a beacon, to send them through. That's not fear, that's someone who wants to cause fear.(it's like the fetches we're literally designed to hunt Fearbringer manifest) that's why it sent the to Molly tho. She mirrored the sender and that was what gave them a beacon, or more correctly I think gave the sender something to send power through to the mortal world.
I don't know that it was even a formal bit of wizard-jargon (like "veil" for invisibility-magic)... Harry's very-fond of just calling stuff by whatever term comes to mind, and "beacon" struck me as an instance of that..see above scene. Molly was at home and the fetches we're sent to cross over at splattercon!!! But she was still the harmonic resonance used to tune the fork. What they use to cross, who sends them, and how they actually find and cross into the mortal world would be three very separate things.
The "summoner" is someone who actually brings them across from the Nevernever.
Harry knows fetches come into the mortal world via mirrors; as you say, "just part of fetches attributes."
In some cases, the mirrors were the link; the bathroom in Splattercon!!! where Pell got assaulted, for one example: There was Pell, and there was Nelson, and there was not a summoner (or Pell/Nelson would have noticed). So the fetch got itself into the bathroom through the mirror (and, likely, back out again).
Later, at the screening of the movie where Rosie got injured, Harry's own magical senses could feel someone else's magical working as it went off(*). We don't know for sure, but there's a good chance that was the summoner.same scene as reference, Molly was effectively the only 'summoner' in the mortal world for them to go after.That's other shenanigans, either Maeve Nfected or TT stuff imo.
So I think we have a strong case for "both" rather than an either/or situation.I disagree entirely and as I've already countered both of your balanced points. I think the case is quite strong actually.
Not a "balanced" point: I am alleging that there is no point at all to be made from our info on Fetch-summoning. None of the summons' happened "onscreen," nor did Harry find any summoning-circles. We have precisely zero info about who summoned any of the fetches, or how.
All theories on Fetch-summoning are based upon implied data only, and multiple theories about it are more-or-less equally-strongly (or equally-weakly) supported.wrong again, implied theory supplied by actual data. See above for an easy example of what your able to deduce and what's actually there.
indeed? and I can cover the rest of this later I'm sure because I've already mined half of these answers and plum forgot about it. The important part is yes, there's many factual things here from which to deduce my theory. As long as you don't ignore what's there..
I will advocate for my own WAG, here: that Molly was being nudged towards black magic by Lea, on Mab's orders: to leverage Harry's severe case of
[White Knight Syndrome]
X
[My Best Friend's Daughter]
X
[Everything-Is-All-My-fault Guilt]
to create a Harry/Molly relationship where Winter already has its claws in. Likely, I think, Nemfected-Maeve got involved (trying to Screw Up Mommy's Plans); I think some of the Fetch action was Maeve's, but mostly it was Mab's (the Madrigal(Darby) Whampire involvement was -- I think -- Cowl's).
(*) -- In the incident where Rosie got hurt, there were actually three magical workings:
#1 The power went out. Maybe that was mortal wizard, either intentionally hexing the power, or just mortal-wizarding the way mortal wizards do (i.e. plays-badly-with-tech); given how widespread the outage, my bet would be that it was intentional. But it could have been a non-mortal, too.
#2 The myrk. My bet is that it was a working of Winter (likely Maeve, maybe Mab), because (a) it came alongside a huge temperature-drop; & (b) a Maeve-likely myrk (& Hobs) was also a Winter Summoning in Small Favor.
#3 The summoning itself, calling "The Reaper" into the movie-screening. If this was Mab or Maeve, they could summon fetches without any "magical working" per se (when one of the Winter Queens wants a winterfae... they just arrive, no circle, no fuss, no muss).
Maybe that was 3 different workings, as many as 3 magic-workers? Maybe it was one magical heavyweight doing three workings simultaneously (or in quick succession)? I don't think we know...
I don't think the Fetches have enough magical mojo to handle that. Gatekeeper is among the best in all creation at spotting Outsiders: if Mab could station Fetches at the Gates, and get a better hit-rate than she gets from the Gatekeeper (or even just give him occasional time to pursue other Outsider incursions, in other places) she'd be doing that; but we haven't a hint of it.