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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on April 09, 2021, 02:08:30 AM
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There has been a lot of talk about Murphy in the Barabbas Curse thread. I thought I'd add a different angle to that conversation and give it a more appropriate setting.
Yes, Karrin Murphy is dead; but I'm calling it now, we will see her again. Jim has already given readers who were upset at her departure the cryptic remark that they will have to "see what happens." Of course, some of them my decide not to wait and stop reading the series. That's their choice to make, what I'm writing is for those who will continue reading the series. So how will Murphy return to the Dresden Files beyond being a memory? I see at least three possible scenarios, besides a possible appearance in the Mirror Mirror world.
1. Ragnarok is not as far in the future as you; and apparently Ms. Gard, thinks it is. In this scenario Odin knows his time is coming to an end and calls in the favor that Harry owes him to take care of some unfinished business. The rule about einherjar not being seen until after the memory of them has disappeared goes out the window because it's an all hands on deck situation. So Einherjar Murphy works as Odin's liaison with Dresden, helping him accomplish whatever it is Odin wants to get done. The problem with this scenario is built into Norse mythology. When Ragnarok occurs, all the einherjar die along with Odin. So, Harry would get to lose Murphy twice. Yea, I'm not seeing that as a fan favorite idea, and I'm pretty sure Jim would realize that and not go there.
2. Ragnarok will not take place anytime in the near future, but Odin needs to get something done in the near term and the person best qualified is the Winter Knight, so Odin calls in his favor. Ordinarily, this wouldn't involve Harry getting to see Murphy, but this favor can only be accomplished in Asgard or maybe Valhalla. Harry has been to one afterlife, so why not another one? Odin's rule isn't violated because Murphy doesn't go back to earth, Harry goes to her and gets to work with her again. This is a rather bittersweet scenario because it's a one and done affair. This scenario could happen, but I don't think it would make fans very happy; plus, I don't really see the point of having Murphy back one last time. I doubt Jim would consider it.
3. This should be really easy to guess. Sure, an einherjar can't return to earth until their memory has faded from living memory, but I don't remember Gard saying anything about this rule applying to valkyries. Karrin Murphy doesn't really fit the berserker stereotype. I can't picture Murphy ever joyfully charging into battle against Jotuns, even with a rocket launcher. Murphy as a valkyrie, that I can picture. I even have a long scenario how this could happen, but there's no need to go into that. The beauty of this scenario is Murphy doesn't have to be in every book. She can be off doing jobs for Odin most of the time. When she gives Harry advice it could be practical advice because she is now a real player in the supernatural game.
What do you think?
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I predict that the next time we see Karrin Murphy will be in Mirror Mirror, and that she'll be a long time enemy of Alt Harry.
Also, she'll be the version of Murphy Harry Soul Gazes, so he can keep the memory of her hating him forever.
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Oh, good idea!
Ok.. Yeah, as far as we know, Karrin is dead. BUT we haven't really seen the personal (for Harry) or cosmical (for the DV universe) consequences/ripples of that death yet, because there wasn't space or time or whatever in Battle Ground or the christmas story for that to be covered. We do know that Harry is still hurt about it 5-6 months later (according to timeline BG happened in July). Or if things will indeed remain as they are.
So, as hard as this death was for me as a fan (Murphy was my favorite, full disclosure), I think that we can't completely judge yet what this will mean for the future in the story of the series.
Like I commented on that other thread, I don't think anything after Changes has been as good as before, and with the waiting time, I was kinda out of the series after Skin Game and just came back 'cause a fellow fan texted me with the news about Murphy and of course I had to see for myself how that happened. And as painful as that death was, I think Battle Ground set things up in a way that made the series interesting again, by leaving a lot unsaid yet. So, I'm definitely curious about what's gonna happen next and what the consequences of everything that happened are gonna be.
So, I did not like Murphy dying, BUT I also believe that that story is not over yet and I'm willing to keep reading because:
a) I really like the series, mostly it's just fun (I don't look for moral or philosophical lessons in this series or anything too profound tbh, just fun, so I don't put too much weight on it) and there's been a lot of interesting worldbuilding, I'm curious about the endgame Butcher's aiming for.
b) Like you said @KurtinStGeorge, I do think that Karrin Murphy will be back, and probably in the next couple of books, I don't think we'll need to wait that long.
I do understand why some people are leaving the series now, though I'd think it fair to give it at least a couple of more books to see how this death is dealt with (and even it if sticks).
Personally, I'm staying unless the series radically changes over the course of the next 2-3 books to the point that is unrecognizable and it takes too long between books. @Mira has pointed out in other threads that Butcher seems to be spreading himself too thin and this series (which is fair to say is his most popular/important one, I think) is suffering for it, and I think that is a fair assessment too.
Anyway, given how so much is kinda in the open now, I think is fair and fun to speculate, and as a Murphy fan, add some wishful thinking too, if you don't mind ;)
Now, onto your proposed scenarios:
1. Ragnarok is not as far in the future as you; and apparently Ms. Gard, thinks it is. In this scenario Odin knows his time is coming to an end and calls in the favor that Harry owes him to take care of some unfinished business. The rule about einherjar not being seen until after the memory of them has disappeared goes out the window because it's an all hands on deck situation. So Einherjar Murphy works as Odin's liaison with Dresden, helping him accomplish whatever it is Odin wants to get done. The problem with this scenario is built into Norse mythology. When Ragnarok occurs, all the einherjar die along with Odin. So, Harry would get to lose Murphy twice. Yea, I'm not seeing that as a fan favorite idea, and I'm pretty sure Jim would realize that and not go there.
Ugh, honestly, I just hate that memory rule that came out of the blue here. Like, I get it, it's a device to deliver some pain, but it's so left field. I don't see the logic in it, why that would be important in-universe.
Anyway, I think it is possible to have this scenario, but let me go a bit wild for a while.
Since we know that Odin and Uriel seem to collaborate (and they meet once a year, if I remember correctly), I'm kinda picturing that Murphy is sorta on loan to Odin, or as a favor to the White God, because there might be some thing that she still has to do to help with what's coming, some role she still has to play.
Since we only see what Dresden knows (and what he wants to talk to us about) maybe Murphy's cut her own kind of deals behind the scenes, and she did reach some sort of agreement with Vadderung and we just don't know yet. Maybe when she died, she got her own talk with Uriel alla Ghost Story situation, maybe she got to see her dad and was given the choice to keep fighting, it just has to be by being with Odin's people because the White God doesn't go around resurrecting people, you know, there was just this one guy.
And she is Catholic, and she seemed to still hold that faith until the last we saw of her, and the DV White God seems to always have a plan, and what happens to his people happens for some reason. I mean, he never abandoned Michael or Charity, the sword of faith seemed to have become broken only to become better (you could say Murphy was instrumental to that, even). I think it's fair to think Murphy would be one of His people, and yes, we could argue that God seemed to have abandoned her because only shitty things have happened to Karrin for a long time now, but maybe that IS the point, you fall before you rise ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The White God seems to be all about choice in the DV, so I could see a scenario where she was given the choice, move on to "what comes after" or rejoin the fight in a different capacity, and of course, being Murphy she chooses to continue and that's how she ends up among Odin's people. She'd have to deal with "after" when she's done with the fight on Earth/Chicago. (LOL, this could be another "Aftermath" type of short story, and I would definitely pay to read that).
So, when this scenario number 1 happens and Ragnarok is here, she dies again with Odin this time, loan ends, and moves on to whatever the White God calls the "what comes after". I doubt she'd go to the bad afterlife. It'd be bittersweet for her and Dresden, yeah, but it could fit.
And we don't know if Dresden survives Ragnarok himself. I guess it also depends if Ragnarok is the same as the BAT or is it's own thing.
And maybe if Harry does survive Ragnarok, if I go all shippy about it, I could imagine a sorta Dante/Beatrice sorta situation you know, she sorta already was the Beatrice to his Benedic. But I'm not a fan of this particular situation or scenario.
2. Ragnarok will not take place anytime in the near future, but Odin needs to get something done in the near term and the person best qualified is the Winter Knight, so Odin calls in his favor. Ordinarily, this wouldn't involve Harry getting to see Murphy, but this favor can only be accomplished in Asgard or maybe Valhalla. Harry has been to one afterlife, so why not another one? Odin's rule isn't violated because Murphy doesn't go back to earth, Harry goes to her and gets to work with her again. This is a rather bittersweet scenario because it's a one and done affair. This scenario could happen, but I don't think it would make fans very happy; plus, I don't really see the point of having Murphy back one last time. I doubt Jim would consider it.
Oh, that's interesting, the fact that is Harry who could go to another afterlife, Asgard or Valhalla, and then meet her, good loophole. I think that's very much possible. And they getting to work again, yeah, it'd be sorta like in Skin Game, getting Michael in the field again one more time. Of all the scenarios though, this IS the one I'd hate the most, to be honest. Well, this or getting Murphy back in Mirror Mirror only to never appear again.
And I don't see the point in bringing her back for that "just one more time" thing. I suppose it could be for that long overdue Soulgaze that many of us have believed would reveal something important to Dresden if/when it happened between them. But still, like, bringing her back for just that, a handy tool, I don't like it. Then I might really feel like the character has been wronged indeed.
I think if we're gonna get Murphy back for something, it has to be for something big, like in scenario 1, Ragnarok, the BAT, etc or I'd rather not have her back at all, tbh.
But most of all, I'd rather have her with agency again. If I'm gonna think "what is good for Karrin?", considering how downhill things have been for her, and I mentioned this is the other thread, how I feel a bit like Dresden has not been equally giving to her (granted because of him having to deal with a lot, but still), and how being close to him (though by her own choice of course) has resulted in so much damage to her, maybe for her own good, she needs time away from the guy. We could say that she has damaged herself a lot by choosing to be close to Dresden and his side of things. Maybe she should go do her own thing again.
Which is why of the proposed scenarios, I like scenario number 3 the best
3. This should be really easy to guess. Sure, an einherjar can't return to earth until their memory has faded from living memory, but I don't remember Gard saying anything about this rule applying to valkyries. Karrin Murphy doesn't really fit the berserker stereotype. I can't picture Murphy ever joyfully charging into battle against Jotuns, even with a rocket launcher. Murphy as a valkyrie, that I can picture. I even have a long scenario how this could happen, but there's no need to go into that. The beauty of this scenario is Murphy doesn't have to be in every book. She can be off doing jobs for Odin most of the time. When she gives Harry advice it could be practical advice because she is now a real player in the supernatural game.
You know, something that called my attention while reading Battle Ground was how, at some point in the beginning of the battle (I think), Dresden actually goes into, what seemed to me, a bit too much detail about the Einherjar.
Battle Ground, Ch 11 and 14:
...a last towering Huntsman. A couple of the largest Einherjaren fought the thing with six-foot claymores and made a bloody mess of the street, laughing uproariously the entire time.
I’m not kidding. Laughing. The freaking eternal soldiers were having a ball tonight. That poor lunkhead Lara had left unconscious in the basement was missing Viking Christmas.
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The Einherjaren let out whoops of excitement and approval as their weapons roared, absolutely withering every octokong on the ground.
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I looked around me to see the Einherjaren staring at the incoming behemoths, mouths open, eyes bright.
Then the big guy with the grenade launcher screamed, in freaking joy, “JOTNAR! JOTNAR OF MUSPELHEIM!”
And the goddamned madmen roared their excitement and began their own war song in answer.
I don't think Murphy fits with that. I was very shocked for exactly this reason when Gard said she was taken to be an Einherjar, it didn't seem to fit. Karrin went to war out of duty, but I don't think she ever went with glee for the battle.
Now, a Valkyrie is what always felt right (and many fans wanted, myself included after doing some revisiting of the series). And why not?
I don't know much about Norse mythology, but Valkyries are supposed to be born not made, right? We never got much on that except what Gard said about not being Odin's daughters, so we don't know how it works in DV universe. But maybe Valkyrie is something you can ascend to. And why not? I mean, since we're already throwing being faithful to mythologies out the window (see the Einherjar memory rule), why not make a Valkyrie something you can ascend to / being promoted to?
Who knows, maybe Murph starts as Einherjar and ends up a Valkyrie after some other deeds or something, I dunno. Something interesting about Murphy is that throughout the story she keeps getting all these offers and powerful beings paying attention to her. She did manage to get to the top of her department in her human work; then sorta targeted by some upper dark forces inside that same work; she was deemed worthy of wielding a holy sword, if briefly still counts; she got job offers from Marcone and Vadderung. And she caught the romantic interest of two professional/supernatural assassins, Kincaid and Gray (I dunno how much of Gray asking Murphy out was part of Dresden's plan in SK) and one really powerful Wizard of Chicago named Harry, who everybody sorta fears now. Obviously, in universe, there's just something about this girl, LOL.
I could see Murphy being "promoted" or even "sponsored" to Valkyrie status.
And I personally like this part:
The beauty of this scenario is Murphy doesn't have to be in every book. She can be off doing jobs for Odin most of the time. When she gives Harry advice it could be practical advice because she is now a real player in the supernatural game.
Yes, and like I was saying before, maybe Murphy needs a bit of space from Harry, it can be good for her as a person/character, and this scenario could give that to her. So that way, when they find each other again, she'll have some agency of her own again, she'd be a player not a pawn in the game (and maybe Harry will also have his s**t somewhat together too). And they'd be more leveled too, either as friends, collaborators or romantic partners.
Personally, I'd like it if they rekindle the romance because I do think that if certain conditions improve, as in this scenario, they could be IT for each other. Anyway, regardless of my personal feelings about it, these two characters themselves feel they fit together and have stuck together time and again, so, good for them if they get a chance. A relationship could still potentially work. People don't have to be tied at the hips to care for another, they just have to be willing to show up when necessary. If lifespan difference or capability to face the non-human part of the world is not an issue anymore, which it won't, in this case, by virtue of Murphy becoming a Valkyrie, they have all the time to each go on about their own regular job/business and get together when the schedules match, it's not like there'd be any rush of biological clocks ticking. Could be alright. They could keep like this until the BAT, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
So for me, scenario number 3 is the winner of the ones proposed here, though there's probably other possibilities, or combinations of scenarios. But the one I have thought more about (or wished for) was something similar to number 3.
Oh, I wouldn't mind hearing about the long scenario you have on how scenario number 3 could happen @KurtinStGeorge.
The other scenario I have thought about was Murphy, after a brief time with Odin or maybe with that as the functioning mechanism to have her "alive", doesn't really work for him but ends up working directly in service with the White God. But I wouldn't have idea how to get there.
OR Murphy coming back as Dresden's new security detail that Lara would have to hire for her new fiancé, since he seems to get in trouble all the time and doesn't have the protection of the White Council anymore. Lara already hires Monoc Security' services. And she needs Harry alive and well, probably, to keep her alliance with Winter. This could be hilarious and angsty.
Or just for giggles, give me Murphy being assigned to work with the boss' son, aka the mighty Thor, and having Dresden freak out about her hanging out with, yet again, another supernatural/non-human male that's not him.
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On another note, does anybody remember about that favor Lara owes to Murphy? You think Murphy cashed in her favor while Harry was gone or something? Do any of you remember that being mentioned again in the books, and do you think it could come to play in the future if it wasn't cashed already?
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b) Like you said @KurtinStGeorge, I do think that Karrin Murphy will be back, and probably in the next couple of books, I don't think we'll need to wait that long.
But she won't be her anymore. She won't be the vanilla mortal that all her fans love. Death and time in Valhalla will change her, and perhaps not in the way you want. That is why there are rules like, paraphrasing, "she won't return till all that knew and loved her have died." Or something like that, but essentially that is a kindness to those who remain, love her memory as she was. I am sure for the next couple of books at least her fans will be looking for clues whether or not it was her, returned.
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First, let me get this out of the way. I am not a Murphy hater nor a Murphy lover. I liked the character up until GS. That is when she lost her way and got an attitude of I know better than everyone else. It is understood why though with Harry gone. She took over the role of Harry and started acting like him. But after he came back, she kept acting like him. Add into it that she has been in every book since book one and had a major role in them except DB, the character of Murphy (for me) has been grinding into the ground.
So I say that to set up this. My opinion is that Murphy should stay dead until all hands on deck for the BAT. And when we do see Murphy, it will be her, not some powered up Valkyrie. Partly because Jim said years ago no powerups for her, if she needs one it will be a bigger gun. And partly because she had been the vanilla mortal with no help through most of the books. That was something I did like about her character. She was you and me and was the human power level in the book to get the feel of how powerful some of the characters were and how strong Harry had become.
I think the story needs a break from her. We will get the feeling of Murphy being there in TM because of Harry remembering and missing her. We will get Harry getting to say goodbye to her in MM after getting to work with her one last time, with Harry doing everything he can to keep her alive and realizing that he just needs to trust her (yeah the trope of trusting someone to open one's heart and loving again.) Then we have 4 books left till the BAT and one of them will be the time travel book, (edit, the time travel book being that they go back to PG) so Murphy will be in that one too. So three books to have without her. Harry needs to heal his soul, and if her keeps seeing Murphy, it never will. The books need a break from her for her reappearance to mean anything.
I would kinda like to see is that Odin put together his own police force with Murphy in charge and Hendricks as her partner in the BAT. Putting Murphy back in to her element.
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So I say that to set up this. My opinion is that Murphy should stay dead until all hands on deck for the BAT. And when we do see Murphy, it will be her, not some powered up Valkyrie. Partly because Jim said years ago no powerups for her, if she needs one it will be a bigger gun. And partly because she had been the vanilla mortal with no help through most of the books. That was something I did like about her character. She was you and me and was the human power level in the book to get the feel of how powerful some of the characters were and how strong Harry had become.
That is my point if she does come back, the mortal human Murphy will be no more. And who knows? Jim might just do that to Harry, imagine him running into Murphy who is now a berserker? Kind of like what Lea did back in Grave Peril to Susan, even if Murphy remembers Harry, any memory of what they had meant to one another is totally gone.
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That is my point if she does come back, the mortal human Murphy will be no more. And who knows? Jim might just do that to Harry, imagine him running into Murphy who is now a berserker? Kind of like what Lea did back in Grave Peril to Susan, even if Murphy remembers Harry, any memory of what they had meant to one another is totally gone.
When Harry was dead his memory became better, not worse. Murphy’s memory will be better too.
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But she won't be her anymore. She won't be the vanilla mortal that all her fans love. Death and time in Valhalla will change her, and perhaps not in the way you want. That is why there are rules like, paraphrasing, "she won't return till all that knew and loved her have died." Or something like that, but essentially that is a kindness to those who remain, love her memory as she was. I am sure for the next couple of books at least her fans will be looking for clues whether or not it was her, returned.
Why wouldn’t she be her anymore? Maybe, it's possible. But that is if we take becoming Einherjar something that imposes some changes to the personality, like Harry's mantle for example. Maybe that berserk hunger for battle (that seemed to be there in those Einherjar fighting in BG) is something that gets added to the personality of the warrior. Yes, that could potentially change her fundamentally. But not necessarily. It could also be a thing about the passing of time since becoming Einherjar, like if time in Valhalla passes differently, and 1 year in the human world is 5 years or something like that in Valhalla, then maybe, of course with enough time perspective may change, maybe she gets knowledge she didn't have before (which would be cool tbh). Yes, that could also make her change and become someone quite different than what she was. But that would happen to any character who takes up a different job/mantle/etc and enough time passes. However, if that’s not the case and there’s no radical jump in time, why would she be not herself?
I think the physical or metaphysical experience (I dunno if we know enough about how that works in the DV universe) of becoming an Einherjar would influence her, because I imagine it's a bit like the mantle thing that Harry has, being an Einherjar maybe means you get added that thrist for battle, and that's maybe something the Murphy we know would struggle with. Also the experience itself of having died the way it happened would have psychological consequences, the whole thing is probably going to cause changes. But that doesn’t mean that it’d be a radical change or a turn completely into something that she’s not.
If she were to come back after a couple of books, without time jump, the rest of the characters in-universe could doubt it was really her, for sure, and it’d be fair to doubt. It’s pretty much what’s happening with Dresden too. We as readers don’t feel Dresden so different or that far removed from what he was maybe because we get to read the internal monologue, but for the characters in-universe, that’s exactly what happened, he changed into something else. Doesn’t mean it’s true for the character though or that that change is bad in itself for the character.
With Dresden we’re seeing the struggle within those changes that are happening. It’d be fair to think that Murphy could be facing the same type of situation, doesn’t mean she’s gonna lose the internal battle though. Or maybe there could be no internal battle at all, and becoming Einherjar is much more organic, like in Butters’ apparent experience becoming a Knight. We don’t know yet. Those Einherjar, seemed to me, a little too enthusiastic and gleeful about the battle for what I think Murphy is like, that’s why I would think it’d be more a struggle for her. But maybe those Einherjar we saw in BG were the way they were exactly because of the passing of time, maybe they’d been dead for like 100 years or something.
In any case, the change itself from human to Einherjar doesn’t mean that she won’t be her anymore, that she’ll necessarily become someone different, that her fears, courage, virtues, faults, weaknesses, etc would disappear and be replaced with something else. Being a human, IMO, is a category that she belonged to, but not WHO she is, not personality-wise. Now, it could be argued that in a meta level she'll stop being what she was, symbolically in the series, in the eyes of many fans, that part is true.
I would guess in any case, the experience is bound to cause conflicting feelings for her or other psychological effects probably, but if a change in circumstances and acceptance or loosing of mantles or sponsors mean that one stops being oneself, then Butters is no longer Butters, Michael is no longer Michael, Molly is no longer Molly, Marcone is no longer Marcone, and Harry definitely is not Harry anymore.
Personally, I don’t have an issue with any of those changes, not yet, not enough time has passed in-universe to be seeing them as someone else, they haven’t radically changed personalities or anything like that, they just sorta changed jobs (of course with accompanying consequences though). But that’s kinda bound to happen in a series that has expanded almost two decades in-universe.
Also not all Murphy fans are fans because she’s “the human” in the series, though that’s the case for many. Personally, that’s not my reason. I relate to some aspects of her personality and history, not because we belong in the same category of beings. I know enough fans that feel that same way, many of them just aren’t around here (the public forums or places like reddit).
Besides, Murphy was human, yes, but how ordinary human was she really, how vanilla? Dresden likes to call all people without magic vanilla humans, but the people he’s associated with and who have fought beside him are not really that ordinary, they’re kind of exceptional in the sense that they show extremes of traits that human could have but not all achieve.
Murphy is supposed to be extremely good at martial arts, detective skills or marksmanship, but not any person can achieve that, not every human can withstand or recover from the mental attack she received, face the supernatural and not lose it, see Rudolph. Michael has the type of faith that is so unwavering that he would rarely doubt or stray from his path, also not something every regular human achieves (granted it can be argued that was the White God’s influence through his Knighthood, or maybe it was that extraordinary faith the reason he was chosen in the first place). And Butters has had the ability to face the awful truth and under enormous pressure remain sane (even through a stay in a mental hospital) and was so resilient that he survived things he maybe should not have been able to survive, he overcame his own limitations in a way that got him selected as a Holy Knight. They don’t seem to have ever been “regular” humans. The idea that Murphy was some sort of barometer to measure how much stronger Harry was or has become, might have been the original idea, but I think that hasn’t been the case for a while now, instead she’s been like representative of a different kind of power than Harry’s. But she’s not, IMO anyway, the sole representative of the category (humans) that it’d be a disservice if she changed a bit. The alphas are still around, and we even have Maggie now (since she still hasn't manifested anything special about her yet). For me anyway, her being human is not what draws me to her.
Now I do want to present the actual quote from the book, just for clarification and having the actual words here:
“She’s gone. She isn’t coming back” …
“It’s the same,” Gard slurred. “Where Nathan died.” Her red eyes welled. “The damned knot. It’s part of our inventory system. A check mark. One Einherjar, picked up and in transit.”
… Then after a while, I said, “If she’s an Einherjar, now . . .”
Gard shook her head. “Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. That is the limit not even the Allfather may cross.”
“She, uh,” I said. I blinked several times. “She wasn’t real forgettable.”
“She was not,” agreed the Valkyrie. “And she has earned her rest.”
That’s what’s actually said, nothing about her loved ones or those who loved her, and certainly not about them having to be dead or the reason for the rule. And though it’s a reasonable interpretation, it's not explicitly said or even the only possible interpretation of the rule. I mean, it could be that Einherjar change so fundamentally after they get picked that it would hurt the people that loved them to see that (though I dunno why the gods would care much about that side of things).
Or it could be something more practical, like having dead people's bodies disappearing and then having them popping up all alive in the same timeframe as the people that knew then and had knowledge of their death, could get a bit confusing since the introduction in the mortal world of the White God. He said only one guy was supposed to do that trick, and that's what his whole following is based upon, so it's a big deal. And Odin and the WG are in some sort of collaboration, maybe showing the mortal world evidence of people living after death is a big NoNo for the WG and they have reached some agreement on it, and that's why Odin can't break the rule.
It’s a made-up Butcher rule anyway and we’re yet to see how exactly or why it works in-universe, IMO.
That all being said, it’s true that for many fans it won’t feel the same if she comes back as a Einherjar, but for other people it would depend on all the circumstance surrounding said possible return, because we don’t all like the character just for belonging to the human category, but there’s other stuff about her.
She could come back as a demi-goddess or part demon and depending on how well the explanation is made and how much the series changes over the course of the next books, and I personally wouldn't mind if it's well written. Maybe I won't like it, true. But I'm willing to wait until Butcher shows me what he's got. There's 8 or so books left to tell the story, a lot could happen yet. I don't hold anything as definitive until I read "The End".
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That is my point if she does come back, the mortal human Murphy will be no more. And who knows? Jim might just do that to Harry, imagine him running into Murphy who is now a berserker? Kind of like what Lea did back in Grave Peril to Susan, even if Murphy remembers Harry, any memory of what they had meant to one another is totally gone.
Murphy was a warrior from the beginning. Martial arts champion, and police officer, KoTC, and charged into battle whenever it came. I think that Murphy would just be acting as she truly is, without the limitations of her mortal body, and constraints of mortal law. The woman working with Lara isn't a total crazy warrior. She acted pretty normal for a "warrior" type in the Dresden Files. She wasn't totally out of control.
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"I nodded. Then after a while, I said, “If she’s an Einherjar, now …” Gard shook her head. “Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. That is the limit not even the All-father may cross.”"
To be fair I have not read all of the posts above, but this is sooooooooo lose. Like it is hard to imagine it being any looser and still be a coherent statement. What does it even mean? No-one khows except Jim.
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Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. That is the limit not even the All-father may cross.”"
As I said, it is a kindness to those who knew her. Because her body and fighting spirit my return, but she is no longer who she was. Have you seen any of the Einherjar show love or any emotion for anything beyond their assigned tasks?
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As I said, it is a kindness to those who knew her. Because her body and fighting spirit my return, but she is no longer who she was. Have you seen any of the Einherjar show love or any emotion for anything beyond their assigned tasks?
Murphy had a good relation with them and they seemed to like her. Their argument with Butters about training were very human. They are not zombies and it is still their soul in there. Lara could handle them the same way as she could handle living men and they made jokes.
Harry could baffle them with his unexplainable knowledge about Marcone castle. They react very human all the time when there is no battle
Freydis said they were as lovers not as good as normal humans and she obviously tried. The battle frenzy is something Gard did as well in a short story but it was just for battle and I would not call that inhuman, humans can get as crazy as anyone.
There may be some differences but it will definitely still be Murphy.
I think Uriel agreed with it because Murphy still had unfinished business. Monty said in ghost story that sometimes the soul stays behind for a while because of unfinished business. That was his explanation for Harry staying behind. In a sense Vadderung is helping Murphy with her unfinished business. Maybe Harry was not the only one who had to choose between doors. She wanted to be involved and that is exactly what is going to happen. It is her version of what her father is doing, just a different department.
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Murphy had a good relation with them and they seemed to like her. Their argument with Butters about training were very human. They are not zombies and it is still their soul in there. Lara could handle them the same way as she could handle living men and they made jokes.
Not zombies, but at the same time they are cold killers, they are not the people that they were when they were living.
Harry could baffle them with his unexplainable knowledge about Marcone castle. They react very human all the time when there is no battle
So what? Murphy will not be the same person that she was, acting human or not.
Freydis said they were as lovers not as good as normal humans and she obviously tried. The battle frenzy is something Gard did as well in a short story but it was just for battle and I would not call that inhuman, humans can get as crazy as anyone.
Now you are talking Valkyrie, not the same at all to what Murphy will become.
There may be some differences but it will definitely still be Murphy.
Your sure about that?
I think Uriel agreed with it because Murphy still had unfinished business. Monty said in ghost story that sometimes the soul stays behind for a while because of unfinished business. That was his explanation for Harry staying behind. In a sense Vadderung is helping Murphy with her unfinished business. Maybe Harry was not the only one who had to choose between doors. She wanted to be involved and that is exactly what is going to happen. It is her version of what her father is doing, just a different department.
Monty was talking ghosts.. Harry stayed behind because he wasn't dead, he was only mostly dead. Do you think Murphy will get a say in what she can or cannot do as one of Odin's soldiers?
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Not zombies, but at the same time they are cold killers,
Not cold, quite excited actually. And nothing that is out of touch with their personalities before they died.
And humans can be cold killers as well.
they are not the people that they were when they were living. So what? Murphy will not be the same person that she was, acting human or not.
Harry is not the same Harry. Before, during and after his dead. But he was and is Harry.
Now you are talking Valkyrie, not the same at all to what Murphy will become.
It is what humans, Valkyrie and einherjar haven common. Battle frenzy is not a sign of being inhuman or whatever.
Your sure about that?
As long as her soul is in there, that is the important part. Otherwise the whole discussion is moot.
Monty was talking ghosts..
No, at the end he was speaking about Harry as a wandering soul, a shade.
And he was in a broader sense speaking as something that sometimes happened.
Harry stayed behind because he wasn't dead, he was only mostly dead.
His soul had left his body, he was dead and if he had chosen another door he would have stayed dead. If corpstaker had found another body she would have been alive again. And if she had found Harry’s body....
Do you think Murphy will get a say in what she can or cannot do as one of Odin's soldiers?
She will get orders but by that definition Harry is not human either.
There are no signs that the einherjar are not the same persons they were before they died with the same memories and character and in every way they behave like Jim probably thinks mythological Vikings should behave. They are created with necromancy and soulfire which should be pretty potent. Their life experience will be different of course, dying and resurrecting every time will have its effects, but their experiences during life is what makes them valuable it makes no sense to throw that away.
Jim can create differences of course but until now he did not indicate dramatic differences. River shoulders indicated that some of them remembered fighting genoskwa when they were alive.
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I think she may return as a warrior of Odin, but also the one to wield Excalibur during the BAT.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/4e10a0f6-3505-496a-ac3b-8c9e423958e0/da4gicx-403e5922-d046-412a-841a-c298e26aaaab.jpg/v1/fill/w_1037,h_770,q_75,strp/firesword_by_rodmendez-da4gicx.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwic3ViIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl0sIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiIvZi80ZTEwYTBmNi0zNTA1LTQ5NmEtYWMzYi04YzllNDIzOTU4ZTAvZGE0Z2ljeC00MDNlNTkyMi1kMDQ2LTQxMmEtODQxYS1jMjk4ZTI2YWFhYWIuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMzciLCJoZWlnaHQiOiI8PTc3MCJ9XV19.6D10xSZ9Ou9ca2I4YP4aZIsChB351lX4XQr24fZGoH8)
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That is my point if she does come back, the mortal human Murphy will be no more. And who knows? Jim might just do that to Harry, imagine him running into Murphy who is now a berserker? Kind of like what Lea did back in Grave Peril to Susan, even if Murphy remembers Harry, any memory of what they had meant to one another is totally gone.
How do you know the warriors of Odin weren't like that in their previous lives? He picks warriors for a reason. They may very well have been savage warriors who loved battle during their mortal lives.
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I think she may return as a warrior of Odin, but also the one to wield Excalibur during the BAT.
I doubt it. Murphy had the choice to become a Knight before and she refused it.
I honestly have never seen them as a fit for her. Remember when Harry Saw her way back when? She's not a Guardian Angel or Angel of Redemption- She's an Avenging Angel and Revenge is not the Jedi way not really what the KotC are for.
I don't think she'd ever take one of those up again.
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I think she may return as a warrior of Odin, but also the one to wield Excalibur during the BAT.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/4e10a0f6-3505-496a-ac3b-8c9e423958e0/da4gicx-403e5922-d046-412a-841a-c298e26aaaab.jpg/v1/fill/w_1037,h_770,q_75,strp/firesword_by_rodmendez-da4gicx.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwic3ViIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl0sIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiIvZi80ZTEwYTBmNi0zNTA1LTQ5NmEtYWMzYi04YzllNDIzOTU4ZTAvZGE0Z2ljeC00MDNlNTkyMi1kMDQ2LTQxMmEtODQxYS1jMjk4ZTI2YWFhYWIuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMzciLCJoZWlnaHQiOiI8PTc3MCJ9XV19.6D10xSZ9Ou9ca2I4YP4aZIsChB351lX4XQr24fZGoH8)
First, that's a cool illustration, nice find!
Second, personally, I always thought that sword would fit her better. I don't think she'd become a Knight, just that, as in Changes, she'd weild it for a specific purpose in the BAT.
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What if Mirror Mirror Murphy comes back with Dresden? Just re-watched Endgame and was thinking about Gamora and Loki. Could be a different enough character to become a Knight?
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What if Mirror Mirror Murphy comes back with Dresden? Just re-watched Endgame and was thinking about Gamora and Loki. Could be a different enough character to become a Knight?
Although this could happen, it would be kind of lame to me. It wouldn't really be our Murphy. She'd have different life experiences, and in a way it would feel like her death had been cheapened, and not important.
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Although this could happen, it would be kind of lame to me. It wouldn't really be our Murphy. She'd have different life experiences, and in a way it would feel like her death had been cheapened, and not important.
Our Murphy isn't coming back, she is D-E-A-D. What will come back may look like her, but it won't be her. That is why I say be careful for what you wish for, you may get it.
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Our Murphy isn't coming back, she is D-E-A-D. What will come back may look like her, but it won't be her. That is why I say be careful for what you wish for, you may get it.
Harry was dead. Harry talked to his father and he was also dead. According to Uriel it is not about your body, it is about your soul.
Harry talked to Murphy’s dad. They were both dead but they were both Harry and Murphy’s father.
Dead, alive, Valkyrie, Einherjar, shade, whatever.
As long as Murphy’s soul is in there it will be Murphy.
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To me the einharjar seems like a pretty likely representation of vikings who died in glorious battle.
Do they seem different than people today? Yes, because lived more than 1000 years ago and was raised in a sort of warrior cult society where the best fate they could imagine was to die in glorious battle. So they could be rewarded with fighting to death every day to prepare for ragnarok. I mean, of course they are a bit odd.
I have not seen anything to suggest that they have been changed by becoming einharjaren. A serious argument for that should quote the books.
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Harry was dead. Harry talked to his father and he was also dead. According to Uriel it is not about your body, it is about your soul.
No, Harry was only mostly dead, that was the dangers of his soul's walk about. Uriel needed Harry to learn some important lessons, but there were risks. Mort and Bob both confirmed that Harry's body wasn't all dead, thus he was neither fish nor foul not having the normal protections that ghost or soul get. If Uriel hadn't been able to overrule Mab and Alfred, I believe Mab would have brought Harry back instantly, or just let him slide on that timeline beyond reclaiming life.
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No, Harry was only mostly dead,
That is your interpretation. Jim and everyone in the books disagrees.
Harry crossed the line. He returned from the dead.
that was the dangers of his soul's walk about. Uriel needed Harry to learn some important lessons, but there were risks. Mort and Bob both confirmed that Harry's body wasn't all dead, thus he was neither fish nor foul not having the normal protections that ghost or soul get. If Uriel hadn't been able to overrule Mab and Alfred, I believe Mab would have brought Harry back instantly, or just let him slide on that timeline beyond reclaiming life.
Or as Lash said you have to die to understand. Or as Lea said what is the use of being dead if it is not a learning experience.
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That is your interpretation. Jim and everyone in the books disagrees.
Nope, when I have time I will give you the quotes... Including the one where Mab describes the death
time line for lack of a better word, Harry never got far enough not to be called back. Where when Harry was a guest inside of Bob's skull, Bob tells him that something is not quite right, Mort the same thing.. So if it is in the book, then it must be what Jim thinks as well.
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Our Murphy isn't coming back, she is D-E-A-D. What will come back may look like her, but it won't be her. That is why I say be careful for what you wish for, you may get it.
Uriel (probably): Lies :)
Mab: Death is a spectrum, not a line
Murphy's body wasn't buried in the ground, and it wasn't burned to ash. Just as Mab took Harry's body, Odin took Murphy's. Which Murphy was real? The Murphy Dresden saw with his Sight that was a blazing warrior, or the one he saw later that was a beat up warrior? In reality, both were real. I suspect that when Murphy returns, she will be as Dresden saw her before. A blazing warrior not stained with the failures, and pain that Murphy had near the end. She will be her truest self.
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Nope, when I have time I will give you the quotes... Including the one where Mab describes the death
time line for lack of a better word, Harry never got far enough not to be called back. Where when Harry was a guest inside of Bob's skull, Bob tells him that something is not quite right, Mort the same thing.. So if it is in the book, then it must be what Jim thinks as well.
Bob and Mort are elected a ghost of Harry and not Harry himself so of course something was not quite right. Bob figured it out as Morty did later.
But it is as Harry and he was dead. Not a ghost of Harry. Bob said it explicitly. He was dead but not gone.
The dead have to travel to the hereafter and that travel can be dangerous. That is why there was an escort arranged for father Forthill.
As long as you have your soul you are you dead or alive.
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Bob and Mort are elected a ghost of Harry and not Harry himself so of course something was not quite right. Bob figured it out as Morty did later.
But it is as Harry and he was dead. Not a ghost of Harry. Bob said it explicitly. He was dead but not gone.
The dead have to travel to the hereafter and that travel can be dangerous. That is why there was an escort arranged for father Forthill.
As long as you have your soul you are you dead or alive.
He was on life support, deep coma, not brain dead... Dead, but not gone, says he is slightly alive, he was brought back, he is as he was... Murphy is dead and gone, she may come back in some form, but it won't be as she was.. Also there is this, the idea that the Einherjar just seem like normal regular warriors, so Murphy will come back just like she was. We've never met a human before he became an Einherjar to compare before and after. No one has sat down with an Einherjar and asked him what his life was before.
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He was on life support, deep coma, not brain dead... Dead, but not gone, says he is slightly alive, he was brought back, he is as he was...
Corpstaker's body was lost, it does not make a difference if you are prepared to take another one. Harry could have taken another body and Mab would have been left with an empty vessel maybe for Bonea to use.
The body is not that important for this line of reasoning. Nice that Mab kept a body ready because Harry would not have taken another one, Too evil.
The soul has a body.
Murphy is dead and gone,
Murphy has gone to Walhalla, just like Socrates went to Hades. Different rules apply. But it is Murphy.
she may come back in some form, but it won't be as she was..
Either she comes back or she does not but if her soul is not included it is not her. So no use talking about that.
Also there is this, the idea that the Einherjar just seem like normal regular warriors, so Murphy will come back just like she was. We've never met a human before he became an Einherjar to compare before and after. No one has sat down with an Einherjar and asked him what his life was before.
But we know they act quite human. Nothing indicates that they are not exactly what norse mythology says they are. The afterlife existence of dead warriors, not some zombies or vampires. Really the afterlife of a person. With the soul otherwise it just makes no sense and Vadderung would not have used soulfire but a drum.
And we know they have memories of their life, River Shoulder told us so. They have memories of the Genoskwa.
Actually from what we know dead people have better memory, total recall as Harry showed (and yes that is another sign he was dead)
The Valkyries pick them up and bring them to valhalla to fight and party. They are the same persons just a different condition. Hades keeps them in his realm, Vadderung raises the best ones as his warrior because he has a lot to do and that is what his followers want.
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I forgot about this scenario being thrown out there by Jim a few years back. A book with Harry being in a mental hospital, like an episode of Buffy the vampire slayer.
If that book gets written, I could see Murphy coming back for that book because Harry's mortal memory of her would be flimsy, opening up a way through for her to Harry. Like how the wall to the nevernever became flimsy in GP
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I found it a little strange how Rudolph just seemed to disappear after his post-Murphy encounter with Dresden. I mean, he was pretty beaten up, both physically and mentally. And suddenly he’s just gone? Who helped him and why? Neither Sanya nor Butters did.
What if Rudolph’s killing Murphy was a “Mirror Mirror” action. We’ve already been given hints of things that are never explained in prior books, such as Little Chicago suddenly being fixed before Harry used it the first time. Another was that drive-by accident whose perpetrators were never explained. Butcher has already hinted that eventually Harry will break all of the Council’s laws. What if - in order to stop the alt-Harry’s antics, he has to go back in time, and changes something such that Rudolph, or possibly alt-Rudolph- doesn’t kill Murphy. When Harry returns to the present timeline, Murphy is back, having never died. Her showing up again might also derail Mab’s plan for Harry to marry Lara.
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I found it a little strange how Rudolph just seemed to disappear after his post-Murphy encounter with Dresden. I mean, he was pretty beaten up, both physically and mentally. And suddenly he’s just gone? Who helped him and why? Neither Sanya nor Butters did.
What if Rudolph’s killing Murphy was a “Mirror Mirror” action. We’ve already been given hints of things that are never explained in prior books, such as Little Chicago suddenly being fixed before Harry used it the first time. Another was that drive-by accident whose perpetrators were never explained. Butcher has already hinted that eventually Harry will break all of the Council’s laws. What if - in order to stop the alt-Harry’s antics, he has to go back in time, and changes something such that Rudolph, or possibly alt-Rudolph- doesn’t kill Murphy. When Harry returns to the present timeline, Murphy is back, having never died. Her showing up again might also derail Mab’s plan for Harry to marry Lara.
The problem I have with this idea goes back to a very popular 1980's TV series called Dallas. I never watched Dallas, with the exception of when I was dating this young women who was a big fan of the show. Normally, she would record an episode if we were going out, but I remember one night coming back to her place and she wanted to watch this major episode before anything else. It was an episode which would bring back a popular character from the dead. This episode received enough build up and advertising that I knew what it was about before it aired. So I watched it with her. I expected the character's death had been faked, or the character had been declared dead prematurely, his life had secretly been saved but he remained in hiding for a year to uncover some nefarious scheme. It was a soap opera after all. Instead it turned out that Bobby Ewing's death had just been a bad dream. Talk about bad ideas. I seem to recall that not only did this episode bring Bobby back to life but it wiped out the entire previous season of the show.
The problem with time travel fixing Rudolph and preventing Murphy's death is that it would look like Harry just had a bad dream. Also, I'm would guess that Murphy was fated to die that night. If Rudolph doesn't shoot her something else would have.
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Fate does exist in the dresdenverse and trying to evade it using your free will is something Uriel is quite positive about but Gard in dead beat had different point of view that might be equally valid.
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The problem I have with this idea goes back to a very popular 1980's TV series called Dallas. I never watched Dallas, with the exception of when I was dating this young women who was a big fan of the show. Normally, she would record an episode if we were going out, but I remember one night coming back to her place and she wanted to watch this major episode before anything else. It was an episode which would bring back a popular character from the dead. This episode received enough build up and advertising that I knew what it was about before it aired. So I watched it with her. I expected the character's death had been faked, or the character had been declared dead prematurely, his life had secretly been saved but he remained in hiding for a year to uncover some nefarious scheme. It was a soap opera after all. Instead it turned out that Bobby Ewing's death had just been a bad dream. Talk about bad ideas. I seem to recall that not only did this episode bring Bobby back to life but it wiped out the entire previous season of the show.
The problem with time travel fixing Rudolph and preventing Murphy's death is that it would look like Harry just had a bad dream. Also, I'm would guess that Murphy was fated to die that night. If Rudolph doesn't shoot her something else would have.
Yes, and it cheapened the show. Murphy died a pretty stupid death, not a way she'd want to go out at all I think, if she had to go. But she is gone, let her rest, as Gard said, she has earned it.
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There has been a lot of talk about Murphy in the Barabbas Curse thread. I thought I'd add a different angle to that conversation and give it a more appropriate setting.
Yes, Karrin Murphy is dead; but I'm calling it now, we will see her again. Jim has already given readers who were upset at her departure the cryptic remark that they will have to "see what happens." Of course, some of them my decide not to wait and stop reading the series. That's their choice to make, what I'm writing is for those who will continue reading the series. So how will Murphy return to the Dresden Files beyond being a memory? I see at least three possible scenarios, besides a possible appearance in the Mirror Mirror world.
1. Ragnarok is not as far in the future as you; and apparently Ms. Gard, thinks it is. In this scenario Odin knows his time is coming to an end and calls in the favor that Harry owes him to take care of some unfinished business. The rule about einherjar not being seen until after the memory of them has disappeared goes out the window because it's an all hands on deck situation. So Einherjar Murphy works as Odin's liaison with Dresden, helping him accomplish whatever it is Odin wants to get done. The problem with this scenario is built into Norse mythology. When Ragnarok occurs, all the einherjar die along with Odin. So, Harry would get to lose Murphy twice. Yea, I'm not seeing that as a fan favorite idea, and I'm pretty sure Jim would realize that and not go there.
2. Ragnarok will not take place anytime in the near future, but Odin needs to get something done in the near term and the person best qualified is the Winter Knight, so Odin calls in his favor. Ordinarily, this wouldn't involve Harry getting to see Murphy, but this favor can only be accomplished in Asgard or maybe Valhalla. Harry has been to one afterlife, so why not another one? Odin's rule isn't violated because Murphy doesn't go back to earth, Harry goes to her and gets to work with her again. This is a rather bittersweet scenario because it's a one and done affair. This scenario could happen, but I don't think it would make fans very happy; plus, I don't really see the point of having Murphy back one last time. I doubt Jim would consider it.
3. This should be really easy to guess. Sure, an einherjar can't return to earth until their memory has faded from living memory, but I don't remember Gard saying anything about this rule applying to valkyries. Karrin Murphy doesn't really fit the berserker stereotype. I can't picture Murphy ever joyfully charging into battle against Jotuns, even with a rocket launcher. Murphy as a valkyrie, that I can picture. I even have a long scenario how this could happen, but there's no need to go into that. The beauty of this scenario is Murphy doesn't have to be in every book. She can be off doing jobs for Odin most of the time. When she gives Harry advice it could be practical advice because she is now a real player in the supernatural game.
What do you think?
I think the answer is a lot simpler:
Kim has stated that Harry will brake all 7 laws at one point. I think he'll bring her back.
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I found it a little strange how Rudolph just seemed to disappear after his post-Murphy encounter with Dresden. I mean, he was pretty beaten up, both physically and mentally. And suddenly he’s just gone? Who helped him and why? Neither Sanya nor Butters did.
What if Rudolph’s killing Murphy was a “Mirror Mirror” action. We’ve already been given hints of things that are never explained in prior books, such as Little Chicago suddenly being fixed before Harry used it the first time. Another was that drive-by accident whose perpetrators were never explained. Butcher has already hinted that eventually Harry will break all of the Council’s laws. What if - in order to stop the alt-Harry’s antics, he has to go back in time, and changes something such that Rudolph, or possibly alt-Rudolph- doesn’t kill Murphy. When Harry returns to the present timeline, Murphy is back, having never died. Her showing up again might also derail Mab’s plan for Harry to marry Lara.
But she may not be the Murphy that Harry loves, she could turn out to still be a cop, a hard nosed one at that. Like the original Murphy, though she worked with Harry on cases, she was also quick to jump to conclusions and point the finger at Harry in at least two books.
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... Kim has stated that Harry will brake all 7 laws at one point. I think he'll bring her back.
I suspect that either raising Sue, or the horde of vengeful spectres that took down Bianca, counts as "raising the dead."
He already got away with a killing, when he took out Justin.
Only 5 more to go!!! 8)
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I suspect that either raising Sue, or the horde of vengeful spectres that took down Bianca, counts as "raising the dead."
He already got away with a killing, when he took out Justin.
Only 5 more to go!!! 8)
Also skating on very thin ice when he and Molly sparred mentally..
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Also skating on very thin ice when he and Molly sparred mentally..
I don't think so, but maybe...?
They were working on developing their mental defenses; the only way to do that is by defending against mental attacks. The "win condition" was a specific mental image, nothing with mental controls or outside impulses.
Now... could a very-subtle mind-mage like Molly have slipped some low-key "extras" in, unnoticed in the face of the larger contest? Likely, to be honest. I suspect that she did not, but I don't think we can be sure.
The whole practice (of practicing mental defenses (and thus of practicing mental attacks)) was deprecated in the White Council because it can slide so easily into law-breaking, and it can be so difficult to figure out the intent, when Something Goes Wrong. But then the Captain of the Wardens had her mind kicked out of her own body by a Kemmlerite, and the WC secretary turned out to have been diddling the minds of most/all of the Senior Council & the Wardens... and they suddenly realized their "just say no" policy was so very head-in-the-sand that it bordered on being suicidal.
I think Harry training Molly was pretty safe... or as much so as such things ever can be.
In particular: I don't think it's going to be the major Lawbreaking that Jim was intending when he said he'd have Harry break all 7 Laws.
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They were working on developing their mental defenses; the only way to do that is by defending against mental attacks. The "win condition" was a specific mental image, nothing with mental controls or outside impulses.
Yes, but remember the main reason why the White Council has such crappy defenses against the likes of the Corpsetaker is
any training beyond the most rudimentary defense is forbidden. So while technically Harry and Molly might not have been breaking one of the 7 Laws, the White Council, especially now might not see it that way.
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But she won't be her anymore. She won't be the vanilla mortal that all her fans love. Death and time in Valhalla will change her, and perhaps not in the way you want. That is why there are rules like, paraphrasing, "she won't return till all that knew and loved her have died." Or something like that, but essentially that is a kindness to those who remain, love her memory as she was. I am sure for the next couple of books at least her fans will be looking for clues whether or not it was her, returned.
You assume that her being a "vanilla mortal" is what "all her fans" loved about her. I didn't. I loved her personality, attitude, style of fighting, looks and what she meant to other characters. And, yes, that may be changed somewhat if she comes back as a Valkyrie. But Harry has changed a ton over the last 17 books and I still love him. And Karrin also went through big changes through that time (including the Ghost Story hiccup, which I didn't love that much). Let's just see what Jim comes up with and then deal with it when it happens. As we do for all the characters who had stuff happen to them during all those books.
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You assume that her being a "vanilla mortal" is what "all her fans" loved about her. I didn't. I loved her personality, attitude, style of fighting, looks and what she meant to other characters. And, yes, that may be changed somewhat if she comes back as a Valkyrie. But Harry has changed a ton over the last 17 books and I still love him. And Karrin also went through big changes through that time (including the Ghost Story hiccup, which I didn't love that much). Let's just see what Jim comes up with and then deal with it when it happens. As we do for all the characters who had stuff happen to them during all those books.
But that's the point, her style etc, as a vanilla mortal, it wasn't just the Ghost Story hiccup, her arrogance, she thought she knew more than God. She went through big changes after she was booted off the police force, this fan didn't care for them much.. That's just my opinion, I found myself rolling my eyes every time she was on page towards the end..
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But that's the point, her style etc, as a vanilla mortal, it wasn't just the Ghost Story hiccup, her arrogance, she thought she knew more than God. She went through big changes after she was booted off the police force, this fan didn't care for them much.. That's just my opinion, I found myself rolling my eyes every time she was on page towards the end..
While I can see the point you are making, I personally think that from Cold Days onwards she evolved into a more understanding character than she had been before Harry "died", with a more open mindset towards his flaws but also his strengths. That did backfire on her with the swords, however, since she had been "contaminated" in her faith by hanging out with Odin's people and therefor she did waver in her convictions. Or that's how I interpreted it, I could be quite off here.
I agree that she recovered a bit too much on the eve of Battle Grounds (Hobbs from Fast and Furious 7 comes to mind when she just had to take off her cast to get better), but as a last hurrah as her mortal badass self, it worked for me.
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Let's face it. Murphy is going to return as a Valkyrie.
But, Murphy doesn't fit the physical model of a Valkyrie, you say. We don't know for certain how Valkyries are created in the Dresdenverse.
One-eye has Soulfire. It makes things real. It's how he rejoins the Einherjar's spirits to their bodies. (WOJ, Dresden Files podcast, December, 2020) Soulfire makes things real.
So, Odin makes a Valkyrie statuesque body from clay (plenty of examples from various myths), uses Soulfire to make it real, then uses Soulfire again to fuse Murphy's soul with the new body. Bob's your spirit in a skull, new Valkyrie.
This would also give Jim fertile ground to give a couple of appearances of the "new character" that we could go back after the reveal and say "Oh, Jim. You absolute bastard! You were torturing Murphy and Harry didn't know!"
Which is the most Jim-catnip thing, ever. And that's why he will do it.
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... I agree that she recovered a bit too much on the eve of Battle Grounds (Hobbs from Fast and Furious 7 comes to mind when she just had to take off her cast to get better), but as a last hurrah as her mortal badass self, it worked for me.
Note that the Dr's typically like to leave a cast on broken bones beyond the point that the bones are healed-enough for light-use.
The point of the break will still be very tender (and much more susceptible to being re-broken!) but you can use the limb for most ordinary things.
I was presuming that was the stage Murphy was at, when she took off her own cast.
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That did backfire on her with the swords, however, since she had been "contaminated" in her faith by hanging out with Odin's people and therefor she did waver in her convictions. Or that's how I interpreted it, I could be quite off here.
That's an interesting take, I personally don't agree about her being "contaminated" in her faith, actually she shows multiple times to try to still hold some faith in her god, she even crosses herself in Battle Ground, something which most Catholics don't just do because, it's a testament of where your faith lies. I honestly think that she just made a mistake, she was scared for Harry, she was angry, that's all that happened. And it was ultimately to serve another purpose, for the right person to have the sword, Butters. (which is not who I'd pick but *shrug*). But it all served a purpose.
And it probably extends to Battle Ground, she had to touch bottom by the time of her death, because obviously she had to die in Battle Ground, I think the fact that Sanya and Butters just happened to arrive that night at Macs, where she was, stay and get "convinced" to take her to Harry that night, is testament enough that the White God, was involved in her death. The knights are always where they are supposed to be.
Let's face it. Murphy is going to return as a Valkyrie.
But, Murphy doesn't fit the physical model of a Valkyrie, you say. We don't know for certain how Valkyries are created in the Dresdenverse.
One-eye has Soulfire. It makes things real. It's how he rejoins the Einherjar's spirits to their bodies. (WOJ, Dresden Files podcast, December, 2020) Soulfire makes things real.
So, Odin makes a Valkyrie statuesque body from clay (plenty of examples from various myths), uses Soulfire to make it real, then uses Soulfire again to fuse Murphy's soul with the new body. Bob's your spirit in a skull, new Valkyrie.
This would also give Jim fertile ground to give a couple of appearances of the "new character" that we could go back after the reveal and say "Oh, Jim. You absolute bastard! You were torturing Murphy and Harry didn't know!"
Which is the most Jim-catnip thing, ever. And that's why he will do it.
Oh, that's just so cruel, it's a great idea. But personally, I like cute, blonde, 5 feet nothing Murph with her pert little nose, though.
But also, Odin took her body. She's not buried underground, her corpse is not rotting, they actually took her body, which tells me that it is needed for whatever is going to happen next to her. So, I doubt Odin has to make her a new body. My guess is that maybe she'll just need some physical therapy, like Harry after Demonreach and the failed suicide. I still do think that Battle Ground is Murphy's version of Changes. She's been following a similar path to Harry's.
Oh, and about the body type, well Gard in Aftermath, when she tells Murph that her boss (Vadderung) might be interested in talking to her, she says "you've even got the hair for it", which means that she has more that one requirement down, the physical aspect of it being the least important one. And most importantly, I think it means means that Valkyries can be "made".
I think maybe it's something that can be offered, maybe it's something that can be obtained. I can imagine that it would make sense that Murph was taken as an Einherjar, but is later offered the opportunity to become a Valkyrie. Of course, there's some challenge, ritual, something that she has to pass, and Murph being Murph of course would take on the challenge, because that woman is not going to wait for eternity to join the fight again, we know her. (also WOJ is that she'd want to survert the rules). We also know that she will want to prove herself. That's how she built up her whole life. It fits her.
Note that the Dr's typically like to leave a cast on broken bones beyond the point that the bones are healed-enough for light-use.
The point of the break will still be very tender (and much more susceptible to being re-broken!) but you can use the limb for most ordinary things.
I was presuming that was the stage Murphy was at, when she took off her own cast.
It is mentioned in Peace Talks that she only had four more days left in the casts when she took them off, so yeah, she was mostly healed, there was nothing miraculous about her taking off the casts when she did and being able to move.
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That did backfire on her with the swords, however, since she had been "contaminated" in her faith by hanging out with Odin's people and therefor she did waver in her convictions. Or that's how I interpreted it, I could be quite off here.
IMO it has nothing to do with Odin. The Swords (or at least their true purpose) were never Murphy's style.
She's great when fighting outright monsters like the Red Court, but... well, she was always about punishing the guilty as much as protecting the innocent. It's like she said to Harry in Skin Game:
"I don't want to save [Denarians]".
That is the core of the issue. And to her credit, she knows it- it's why she rejected the thing in the first place.
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IMO it has nothing to do with Odin. The Swords (or at least their true purpose) were never Murphy's style.
She's great when fighting outright monsters like the Red Court, but... well, she was always about punishing the guilty as much as protecting the innocent. It's like she said to Harry in Skin Game:
"I don't want to save [Denarians]".
That is the core of the issue. And to her credit, she knows it- it's why she rejected the thing in the first place.
Which is at the core of why she managed to break the Sword of Faith. Key word here is faith,she had all the faith in the world in her own judgement, but none apparently in the ultimate Judge. She spoke out of both sides of her mouth when she said she couldn't return the Swords to the appointed custodian of them, Harry, because she feared that he'd screw up giving them out somehow and get them broken.. Why? Because deep down she didn't trust Harry after what had happened to him. Meanwhile she kept the Swords because she believed she had better judgement than Harry.. Then after her little speech about why she couldn't be a Holy Knight, for fear of what it would do to the Sword. She proceeded to desecrate the Sword of Faith by proclaiming it was for her to judge Nic,not the Lord,then tried to kill him with it, and got it broken. In a word, she's a bit of a hypocrite.. Maybe love does that or can do that to a person, but in my opinion Jim killed her off as a character long before she was actually killed off, beginning with Ghost Story when he made her a vigilante, he systematically stripped her of all the virtues and strength that made her a great character in my opinion.. Her abilities as a fighter, her great love story with Harry don't make up for all that she lost.
And I for one do not wish her back.
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I do.