A serious problem we had with Fate when we started was that, like other RPGs;...well here is the metaphor I commonly use; A veteran soldier in your game should have superior skills to the idiot I was just forced to graduate from his basic infantry course two months ago. PLUS; he should still be a functional human being off the battlefield. if a basic soldier IRL is competant enough in 4-6 weapons to qualify, can navigate, apply an bandage, carry a backpack a long ways, use a radio and still have a good chance of being a decent driver, 10% chance at a trade, 20% chance at knowing computers, and so on; a veteran character, should start with that and build on it.

We found it very, very hard to create a pure mortal who could fight and function out of combat in fate at less that a submerged level and even then there were glaring shotcomings.

Let's take your veteran soldier:
Skill 4: Guns
Skill 3: Fists, Athletics
Skill 2: Drive, [Something Civvie (but militarily useful in support/logistics)], [Something Com-Spec, Mil-Tech, etc]
Skill 1: 2-3 Civvie Skills (at least one of which, and maybe all, have SOME use in the military), + 1-2 Military Skills (maybe with some civvie uses)
2 Stunts for Combat; 1-2 stunts useful in the military AND as a civilian; (maybe) 1 Civvie stunt
He is, frankly, pretty kick-ass on a mortal-only battlefield.  He's far from incompetent in civilian life.  When he de-mob's, he can go straight into some physical job leveraging off his Athletics, or maybe use Vet's Benefits to ramp up one of those Skill-2 skills (i.e. most ComSpec/MilTech jobs have direct civvie analogues) by a level or two & become pretty kick-ass on the civilian front, too.

Yes, he's in over his head if you throw him into a Submerged game!  But then again, the other PC's shouldn't be Submerged, either -- their Skills and Stunts will be on par with his.  Even if they're supernatural, his Guns, Fists/Athletics, and surplus of FatePoints should have him holding his own, on AND off the battlefield.

Just out of Basic, he probably looked like:
Skill 3: Guns or Athletics
Skill 2: Athletics or Guns, Fists
Skill 1: Drive, [Something Civvie (but militarily useful in support/logistics)], [Something Com-Spec, Mil-Tech, etc]
1 Combat Stunt, 1 Military/Civilian crossover stunts, 1 Civvie-centric stunt

Yeah, he's relatively "weak" in the Dresdenverse... but one good roll with Guns:3 using an M-16 will take out most foes, even supernatural ones.  And this guy is On the Beach!  As a civvie, he's not much... hired to do unskilled/semi-skilled physical labor off his Athletics, likely.

That...is a freaking awesome theory.

It is, isn't it?  Like I said elsewhere in-thread, I don't think it's a true theory, because I don't think it holds up to closer scrutiny.  But I love it anyhow!

The idea that the WCouncil has so screwed themselves over, applying this massive "Now you become a sociopath" magical whammy atop the already-corruptive nature of that kind of magic... or maybe that they have gotten corrupted themselves... or maybe that the "Black Council" is actually so old that they have suborned the execution process and some portion of the time the executioners ARE members of the BCouncil who ARE doing it as a blood-rite... hrm... that one actually holds up:  it isn't ALWAYS a blood rite, only when the BCouncil can arrange for their moles/shills/dupes to be the only ones present; but they've been running an increasing percentage of "warlock executions" as blood-sacrifice rituals over the centuries...

Maybe I'm just odd, but...I don't really see the appeal of large numbers. An accuracy 10 attack against defence 7 is identical to an accuracy 5 attack against defence 2, mathematically speaking. So what's the point?

Well... everyone likes to be an epic badass, don't they?   

Sure, these are the same mathematically.  But they are VERY different, narratively!   

That Accuracy 5 shot was an impressive knife thrown from 25 feet, hitting the ghoul who was about to grab the child.  The Accuracy 10 shot was thrown from 50 feet -- through a doorway that was being slammed shut! -- pinning the ghoul's hand to the wall. 

Or something, maybe my difficulties are off...   

Point is, the high-numbers games allow for much more badassery, which is often fun.

Hi there

I'm looking to see if there is a document that I could hand out to those new to the dresden files that shows what would be reasonable to know if you're:
clued in vanilla mortal
vampire (of different ilks)
changeling
wizard
practitioner
werewolf (of various ilks)

My Google-Fu is weak today so thought I would come to the experts ;-)

"It all depends."
Seriously, the power-level descriptors largely do what you're looking for.
A werewolf probably won't be any less than "feet in the water," and only that naive if remarkably isolated; but they could well be fully Sumerged, or more.  These are intended to measure both power-level and relative amount of knowledge.  I think exact degree of informed-ness is intentionally left to each group, however...

I am expanding an old campaign me and my buddy used to do as a 2-player for my regular gaming group. But the problem is that most of these guys are totally new to TDF and their fantasy background is giving them a bad taste for one of my favourite aspects of TDF; the balance. Maybe I should not have led off with; "you can't play a vampire without being a bad guy, in general" But I did. These guys are more used to "catch-less" powers, so the give and take and consequences have sort of turned them off.

Honestly, it sounds a bit as if this game may not be the best match for your group...  

Try explaining that the Universe itself seems to be a moral place, that it's a natural law of the Dresden universe that gives Lawbreaker Stunts.  Tell them about Refresh seen as free will, and that monsters who have given into their hungers have lost enough will to resist, slipping from PC-worthy to mere NPCs.  Monsters cannot really change or grow, they can only be true to what they are... except, sometimes, with the involvement of  free-willed mortals.

Good luck!

There's a big ol thread with spare character-concepts...  each is anything from a few lines to a fully-statted and playable sheet with extensive backstory notes, and a couple of examples, iirc, of the whole multi-phase / shared-backstory chargen.

I haven't seen anything so far in the books that contradicts the hypothesis that the Laws of Magic exist because the White Council has been enforcing them in what amounts to a millennium long ritual powered by the blood sacrifice of thousands of Warlocks.

Hmm.

Y'know, that is a fascinating observation.   Nothing to contradict the hypothesis... anything (besides the close Council/natural laws' correspondence) in either novels or DFRPG to suggest this IS so...?

The one "execution" we saw (the Korean(?) warlock) DID have a huge portion of the Sr. Council on-hand... and, IIRC, a circle...

There was no overt Ritual Magic happening, or Harry would've noticed... but those Very Heavy Hitters might have been able to slip some minor continuity-of-tradition rituals past him.  He was hardly at the top of his investigatorial game in that scene...

Um even in the books the consequences of Law Breaking have more effects than a trial and head chopping.
<snip various good examples>

Yeah.  My point was just that:  there's the WCouncil's "Laws of Magic" which are... y'know... written-down-on-paper-by-people sorts of laws, and they have enforced-by-people sorts of consequences.

Then there are -- completely without ANY written-down-laws, some "(natural) laws of magic" which have internal, spriritual consequences... by and large, they seem to turn people into... well, worse people; eventually, into monsters.

I was explicitly inquiring about the relationship between those two separate things.

As for your claim that the White Council is Justice! We know the White Council has been wrong about Harry pretty much 100% of the time so I don't know where you got that impression.

  Oh, I don't mean to say "the White Council is Justice!"  Clearly, the WCouncil makes mistakes.  They were (we presume) mistaken about Harry (of course, Harry's story isn't over yet, and he still has time to turn to the Dark Side... though we don't really expect it of someone who not only RESISTED a Denarian imprint for over a year, but ended up converting her to his side!    ), and Molly (though she now has a WHOLE new set of Personal Challenges, and the whole Sword of Damocles is no longer even on her shortlist of worries... but she too may yet get a whole lot darker than she is Light ... ) .  Still, Harry *had* killed by use of magic, so technically he had broken WCouncil Law.

But, the WCouncil's "Laws" are, apparently, 99% the same as the "natural laws" of the universe, so it's fair to say that the Council is trying to do the Right Thing (where've we heard that before?     )... at least on paper.  Maybe Harry's kill was in one of those 1% corner-cases where the WCouncil law paints him "Guilty" but the natural law didn't give him Lawbreaker (the Stunt)... or maybe Ebenezer trained him through some milestones and Harry bought it off...  retcon'ing the novels into the DFRPG matrix may not perfectly fit, of course!


- Steve, the g33k
 

So, um... yeah.  It's a "Law" question.
For context:
 - I've read all the novels, including "WttJ" graphic novel errr... that is, comic book (per WoJ).
 - I'm an experienced RPG'er who's played 20+ systems & GM'ed half a dozen of 'em.
 - I haven't got DFRPG (yet, still tracking down a copy via FLGS), but I D/L'ed FATEcore to get a handle on the (non-DF) mechanics; some of this may be explicitly covered in the rulebook, and if so I apologize!

So, back to my question(s) of Law...

The WhiteCouncil's "Laws of Magic" basically specify whether or not (and to what degree) You're In Trouble -- it's pure story/consequence stuff, right?  No mechanical anything, shifts on dice, yadda yadda...  Just a scary guy in a grey cloak with a REALLY sharp sword.  Or even a Councilmember -- eeesh!   Either the Council thinks you broke their law, and then -- very explicitly -- You Are In Trouble; or they don't, and you aren't.

Then there's the DFRPG-universe's "Lawbreaker," i.e. the Stunt.  This DOES include some shifts on dice-rolls, it IS game-mechanical.  Story effects may be even more far-reaching, but they are implicit rather than explicit, right?  Having a Lawbreaker Stunt on-sheet doesn't automatically define stories, the way an angry Warden on your heels does...  Or does it???

By the by:  can Mere Mortals detect the "Lawbreaker" stunts, e.g. by soulgaze?  Clearly they can, in some cases.  Harry could see Molly's at-risk status, and the kid who got executed at the beginning was apparently clearly-corrupt to soulgaze.  Also, the stone guard-dogs of Ancient Mai seem to detect the Stunt by sense of smell...?  Can -- if a sufficiently-perceptive Soulgaze'r or other detection-method is used -- this ALWAYS be detected?  This seems to be implied, but not nailed down...

So, here is the core question that I have (the foregoing Q's were ancillary); probably a 2-part question:
 1:  Do the WCouncil's "Laws of Magic" have a 1:1 correspondence with the universe's "Lawbreaker" Stunts, and vice versa?
It seems so, based on the "Official" Perspective on Lawbreaking thread where it's stated:

It absolutely is a law of the universe that breaking one of the Laws of Magic actually changes you. Us folks who've worked on the RPG find this to be established in the canon, in the books, and as such don't see it as particularly up for debate.

So, if someone earns "Lawbreaker" from the universe, but not the censure of the WCouncil, it's only that the Council didn't notice the instance of Lawbreaking.  And while the Council may come after you for something that didn't earn you a Lawbreaker stunt, that's likely just their all-too-human imperfect understanding, in that they THINK you're a Lawbreaker (in the Stunt-earning sense of the word).

2.  Harry begins the series seeing the WCouncil as (mostly) wandering between stodgy ol' fuddy-duddies, scary-strict inflexible monomaniacs, and hidebound bureaucrats; eventually, he also sees them as having several/many corrupt (in the Lawbreaker-Stunt sense of the word, as well as violating Council Law) members flying under Council radar... implying that possessing the Lawbreaker Stunt is NOT something that can be seen by most/any Soulgaze'r, or they'd have been out'ed) .  Not sure if I should spolierblock this next bit, but better safe than sorry:
So, here's the part of Point#2 that I'm wrestling with:  the close correspondence between WC Laws of Magic and the LawbreakerStunt-granting nature of the universe should be keeping the Council "pure."  The universe itself is on their side, fer cryin out loud!  How'd they get so rife with corruption??!?  Presumably, it's only advanced Lawbreakers who can mask their Lawbreaking, and so the Council should be able to nip their internal problems in the bud (even if it sometimes takes a bit to track down outside problems).  I'm having a hard time understanding how the WCouncil -- as portrayed in DF novels / canon -- exists as corruptly as they do, if the universe itself automatically plops a Black Hat (i.e. a Lawbreaker Stunt) onto each newly-minted badguy, as per DFRPG mechanics...

Help?