Well that started off with a bang, but there wasn't much there to suggest where the story is heading. (Other than it's going to be bloody.) However, I do have to say that seeing(click to show/hide)
I don't know about anyone else, but after hearing Jim say that Peace Talks was going to contain a very high level of supernatural violence, I was somewhat disappointed by the amount of action we got in the first book. It looks like Battle Ground may make up for that decided lack of action, though at the same time I hope that Harry will soon get the time he needs to start thinking like a detective, and to start acting rather than just reacting.
1. Harry isn't sure he can actually bind Ethniu before she kills him. He is also highly aware she is essentially invulnerable. Part of his plan to wound her and bind her involve the plaque and the knife. Curiously, didn't use either to fight the Kraken. In fact, he was so concerned Ethniu might be aware of his thoughts (although he really shouldn't keep saying her name...did her learn nothing from Skin Game?) he tried not to even think about the knife. He also didn't tell Murphy he intends to use Demonreach to hold her. Curiously, he was acting as though this is all his backup plan. But what then is Plan A?
2. Ethniu's Eye is mostly what we know from lore. However, Harry isn't sure of what it can do beyond destruction. I suspect we will see a few shots of mass destruction but also some extra abilities that no one knows of. He also is unaware how she inherited her father's Eye.
3. Harry doesn't think that there will be any way for mortals to not notice this. However,Christmas Eve seems to suggest things have calmed down. It quite clearly avoids mentioning whether the masquerade has fallen.
4. A big hole in Harry's education is Water magic. Listens-to-Wind, River Shoulders could help him with this. If Carlos trusted him more I suspect he could. It's interesting Harry has almost know desire to learn it and almost know knowledge of it...especially considering Wizards are meant to be jack-of-all-trades types unlike Sorcerers who only know how to blow things up...rather like Harry.I don't know if that is really true. While yeah, there are plenty of gaps in Harry's knowledge, and plenty of areas he isn't the best at, from Storm Front on he has explained how water neutralizes magic, this was consistent with that.
5. Harry suggests that Ethniu was locked up for thousands of years. Except he can't really be right about that. At least for the last few hundred years she must have been leading the Fomor. And likely she was locked up in the early days on Ireland, so maybe a thousand years before Christ at the most. But that seems unlikely, considering she was second generation Fomor, and they weren't even the first gods of Ireland. The Tuatha De only show up around the time the Israelites leave Egypt which might have only happened 500 years before Christ. At best she was locked up for a thousand years. Unless of course, Balor locked her up in prehistoric times.
6. Harry thinks that even caught off their guard, beings like Ferrovax and Vadderung are still too dangerous to fight fairly. Which suggests that we might get to see a little of them both in action. Very small things but still. I doubt we will see either of them square up with Ethniu or anything. In fact, I doubt anyone but Mab will do that. In saying that, a few minnows like Harry and the Senior Council might try and slow her down.
5. Harry suggests that Ethniu was locked up for thousands of years. Except he can't really be right about that. At least for the last few hundred years she must have been leading the Fomor. And likely she was locked up in the early days on Ireland, so maybe a thousand years before Christ at the most.
I don't know if that is really true. While yeah, there are plenty of gaps in Harry's knowledge, and plenty of areas he isn't the best at, from Storm Front on he has explained how water neutralizes magic, this was consistent with that.The better you are with water magic the less you're bothered by running water is the general rule IIRC.
Irish mythology timelines are... interesting.And influenced by the Christian monks who wrote the stuff down.
But Lugh (Ethniu's son) is supposed to have been High King of Ireland in the mid to early 2nd millennium BC, so the Tuatha had arrived at least by then.
And Ethniu could have been imprisoned before the arrival of the Tuatha De, the Fomorians are older than the Tuatha De.
And influenced by the Christian monks who wrote the stuff down.
The better you are with water magic the less you're bothered by running water is the general rule IIRC.
So is Harry naked once again? He said his spider silk suit was ripped to shreds.
Molly's there. Bet she brought presents as well as sharks.
Hope so otherwise Harry is going to look really funny battling monsters wearing just a fig leaf... ::)
How do you think he is going to distract Ethnui? By riding up to her nude on Sue.
Only the suit died, Harry would have been wearing underwear (I hope it is clean)
Well, he was in the lake, so they should be clean, but then again battling a giant squid with just a knife would create a brown streak in anyone's drawers! :-[
As far as riding up naked on Sue to Ethnui, most likely she has seen it all before. The danger for Harry is she might point and laugh... ::)
But she would still be distracted enough for Harry to get a prick in, and make the earth (on Demonreach) move for her.
And influenced by the Christian monks who wrote the stuff down.
Oh yeah, the actual timelines written down fit everything into a post-Deluge history going back just several thousand years BC (not sure exactly). Given the Cthulhu elements the DV Fomor have, they could easily be millions of years old.
I'm just saying that even in those timelines the Fomor are older than 1000 BC.
Oh, probably not millions. The god-level Fomor Titans like Ethniu are different of course. They came from before the universe, along with the rest of the other deities.
Question is, what were all those beings doing for the several billion years before humanity came along?
It wasn’t a soul gaze, due to its aquatic nature it was a sole gaze.totally had to look that up lol..
It wasn’t a soul gaze, due to its aquatic nature it was a sole gaze.
I bet Jim wished he thought of the pun, just so he could inflict it upon his entire readership. Puns need to be shared.Now I know where Harry's jokes went. They transfered into you. LOL
Now I know where Harry's jokes went. They transfered into you. LOL
Maybe... But I actually think it's probably only the cross-universe beings like angels/fallen angels that are from outside the universe. Ethniu is daughter of Balor, so probably isn't 'older than time'.Actually, one of the most recent WOJ confirms that all the gods are older than time. It was just after the release/ or just before Peace Talks. Basically he was asked how do all the varying creation myths work considering all the different pantheons and contradictions. Jim's response was that essentially that the act of Creation was such a big event (beyond human comprehension) that all the deities sort of remember things out of order (considering cause and effect wasn't invented yet) and that it was similar to one big party that people only remember fragments of...and it only really comes back fully when they are reminded. He didn't say who reminds them. So chances are Ethniu really is older than the universe. Remember we are dealing with seriously powerful beings here, but they don't really work the same way we do. Things like being born might only be semi-relevant to them.
I was suggesting millions of years only because of the Cthulhu-type connections, in which case the original Fomor could have once been a pre-human intelligent species inhabiting the physical Earth (as opposed to the Nevernever) before the rise of humanity.
But yeah, probably not.
There probably isn't one answer for all of them.
Time is mutable in the Nevernever, and the NN could have been quite different before it was shaped by human thought, so many Nevernever beings might not actually have experienced all that time. Even more so for beings like angels who are "cross-universe" so might not even have been in Harry's universe before mortal humans showed up.
And some beings might be fragments of older beings, the way Hecate was apparently split to create the Faerie Queens.
And (more speculatively) mortal life might have created energy in the NN, and maybe even non-intelligent proto-Fae. Things like spirits of hunger and rage and fear might have been around as soon as animals became advanced enough to experience those emotions.
But maybe humanoid and intelligent Fae like Toot-toot didn't start showing up until humans existed to shape the NN with their thoughts.
Actually, one of the most recent WOJ confirms that all the gods are older than time.
I think it's more accurate that time is MORE mutable in the Nevernever. It's plenty mutable in the physical world and mortal world.
Just to be clear, Hecate = Queens of Faerie is just a theory. It isn't confirmed. There is clearly a connection of course. But beyond that we don't know. My personal take is that the Queens, and all of the Fae, represent the remnants of several pantheons of gods. Harry even says as much in the first chapter of Battle Ground, calling the Tuatha "proto-fae".
My guess is that plus the WOJ about how beings don't change, just our ideas about who and what they are change - this gives us the best idea about how beings can both be older than the universe AND shaped/created by mortals. The being exists in a sort of shapeless/pre-mold state that changes to fit the shape created by the emotions/beliefs of mortals.
I've seen that, but I'm not convinced it necessarily means that... at least not in the sense I'm talking about.Perhaps not all of them. But not all of them are like Mab either. Not all the gods are mantles. Maybe not even most. But it's certainly possible that only the oldest/most original beings are from that moment. The real question is whether newer emanations/offshoots know what their originators know. Does Vadderung remember everything his original form did?
Some aspects of them / their power ... yes, would go back to the beginning of the universe, in some form. But not the individual beings (at least all of them).
The power of Mab is "older than time" per Harry's Sight vision in SK, but Mab herself is younger than Nicodemus.
Given what Lea says about memories being stored in the universe in GS, I think the current generation of gods having those memories could be more like how Harry & Molly just know what Winter Law is as soon as they think about it... it could go with the 'Mantle' to some degree.
As Mother Summer says, the power can't be created or destroyed - but it can change form.
Well, sure, relativity and all.. even without magic, in real physics, time can be tricky. But that rarely makes any actual difference unless you are dealing with really high speeds or extreme gravity wells.True enough, at least based on our current understanding.
Yeah, the statue of Hecate in SG confirms some kind of connection, but we don't know exactly what.I agree.
Personally I think the Queens incorporated parts of various other Mantles, including Hecate, the Greek Fates, and the Norse Norns.
But I think mantles can also be divided or consolidated (consumed?)Isn't this all that ever happens to power anyway? But yeah, I think Vadderung essentially hints at this.
I'm of the opinion, you could take the middle fate, kill her on the stone table, and basically make her into the two courts and that what happened to the missing sister.
And of course the scary thing is the recent Woj soul doesn't change, and seeks it's original form... If they cannibalized them into the courts, the soul is seeking it's original form. Even outside of this specific theory, if you prescribe to the grand unification theory at all consider, the soul seeks it's original form...
I don't think anyone is missing. Both Mothers share the names/mantles of Atropos and Skuld, the Queens are Lachesis (and presumably Verdandi/Verthandi), and the Ladies are Clotho (and presumably Urdr).MS is clotho, MW is skuld... Where is Lachesis? The queens? Yea, that's exactly my point. Where there should be a third just as powerful being we have the courts split in two
I think that WoJ was about mortal souls. The Fae and such seem to be based on spirit rather than soul.
MS is clotho, MW is skuld...
Suffice it to say the argument has been well laid, and not by me.
Perhaps not all of them. But not all of them are like Mab either. Not all the gods are mantles. Maybe not even most.
Isn't this all that ever happens to power anyway?
Well, I meant dividing up the power among multiple successors (or combining the power of several beings into one) as opposed to the same beings continuing to exist but altering their form and roles.Jim used the analogy of the three blind men and the elephant. I suspect that it goes a little something like that. We see three separate Queens, or six, but really they form a part of something greater. Maybe that was a being called Hecate. Maybe Hecate was a six-part being that was smaller that grew all six parts. Maybe Hecate herself was a smaller part of a greater whole. Perspective is everything.
Molly may be in a sense part of Hecate but I doubt she perceives herself as being essentially 'the same person' as Mab or Mother Winter or the Summer Queens.
No, *both* Mothers are Skuld and Atropos.both mothers are not atropos... Only one of the fates welds the snippers.
This question was asked ages ago ("if MW is Atropos and MS is Clotho, where's the third Fate") and Jim's response was that the model is off by 90 degrees.
So both Mothers = Atropos, both Queens = Lachesis, both Ladies = Clotho.
Yeah there have been lots of arguments about this stuff before.
But I think that WoJ about White Court feeding confirms that the Soul/Spirit distinction is both real and makes a huge difference (I think we knew that from GS, but that WoJ gives more parameters).
White Court feeding may affect the soul to some degree, but can't destroy it. When the White Court feeding kills someone, that's by exhaustion of life force, not destruction of soul... their afterlife isn't removed.
IMO this probably also means that when a Changeling Chooses Fae (or when Susan turns Rampire in Changes, etc.) the soul goes on to the afterlife and only spirit is left in the new being.
Now that doesn't mean no Fae have souls - Molly does. Other Mantle-bearing Fae might too, depending on whether they were Fae (or Changelings who Chose Fae) before they took up the Mantle.
"MS is a dead ringer for Clotho"sure,
Could you elaborate on this?
I've always seen Clotho-Lachesis-Atropos described in the maiden-mother-hag model of the tripart-goddess.
both mothers are not atropos... Only one of the fates welds the snippers.
The Fae clearly have soul worked into their existence, it's one of the reasons things like the spiders actually EXIST and leave bodies...
I don't think they ever had Mantles as the power was never built up in such a package. I think due to their nature they took the power the only way they could: by feeding.
I did find the LoON a bit underwhelming. But perhaps they were meant to be.
And Harry pretty much postulates on a period of rampant growth to have the same effect in SK.
Just because it kills us doesn't mean it's death. The planet would survive just fine.
The drive to reproduce is not a drive to create things...
Because things purely of spirit do not have bodies.
on: Today at 07:09:08 AM »Insert Quotejust as much conjecture as the theory that they do. That they have a body underneath that grace. After all, transmuting a body is a greater order of magnitude than loaning a grace. Seems without his grace he's just a guy in a meat suit.
Angels do not have souls, they have a Grace, and appear able to incorporate a physical body when required without borrowing ectoplasm from the NeverNever to do so, presumably a direct energy to matter conversion
I wonder if there are beings powerful enough to teleport without the processing power to keep from being an undifferentiated pile of protoplasm? It probably answers itself, not after the first attempt.The rpg IIRC files teleporting under "too annoying to bother with most of the time" and provides some rules in case players want to use it.
I was going to cite the in-books quote that Angels don't just have souls, Angels don't have anything *but* soul (and a ton of it). But then I realized it's a Bob quote, and he's far from an expert on such things.ok, I should specify. I think Archangels have a real body. Those things that need 3 circles in FM would, to me, appear to be a higher or more complete class of entity than an ecto suit or other manifestation.. the loup is a decent example. Though he was a mortal man, possessed of an immortal(well, as immortal as a spirit is anyway) he had a third characteristic that combined both elements. Sort of a synchronicity that made him the sum of his parts instead of just possessed. the average angel is probably just the spirit+soul fusion into a new being that Bob talked about.
The rpg IIRC files teleporting under "too annoying to bother with most of the time" and provides some rules in case players want to use it.