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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Paviel on October 09, 2017, 03:12:11 PM
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Chauncy said in "Fool Moon" that according to legend, St. Patrick cursed the MacFinn bloodline to become loup-garou, passing from generation to generation, and that the cursed bloodline would last until the end of days.
In light of this, I see four possibilities:
1. Chauncy was lying.
2. The legend was inaccurate.
3. The end of days had already arrived as of the end of "Fool Moon", ending the curse on the MacFinn bloodline.
4. Harley MacFinn's death did not make his bloodline extinct; he had at least one younger relative, who inherited the curse.
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Chauncy said in "Fool Moon" that according to legend, St. Patrick cursed the MacFinn bloodline to become loup-garou, passing from generation to generation, and that the cursed bloodline would last until the end of days.
In light of this, I see four possibilities:
1. Chauncy was lying.
2. The legend was inaccurate.
3. The end of days had already arrived as of the end of "Fool Moon", ending the curse on the MacFinn bloodline.
4. Harley MacFinn's death did not make his bloodline extinct; he had at least one younger relative, who inherited the curse.
There's been some speculation that Fitz is MacFinn's son, based mostly on him physically resembling him or Tera West (the eyes, if I'm not mistaken), the name "Fitz" meaning "bastard," and WOJ that he was aware of this when he picked the name.
There's not a lot of information to go on, but for my part, there are a few questions that the possibility brings up that would need addressing, mainly why either MacFinn or Tera would apparently abandon their son.
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It's possible that he's MacFinn's son by someone other than Tera West and/or that the mother kept knowledge of his son from him, but we've already gone down that road in this series, so I don't know that Jim would want to use it again...
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Also, the age is wrong.
Fool Moon, October, 0ASF
Ghost Story, May, 12ASF - Fitz: "He couldn’t have been seventeen, but his eyes were decades older."
To me, there's a huge difference between 11/12 and 15/16, growth-wise. If Fitz were closer to 12, Harry would have made that observation.
For Fitz to be MacFinn and Terra's kid, he either spent a few years in the never-never to age more than temporally appropriate, or he was born prior to FM.
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For Fitz to be MacFinn and Terra's kid, he either spent a few years in the never-never to age more than temporally appropriate,
Unlikely, considering how he reacts to Harry and Aristedes; he reacts more like someone who has little to no experience with the supernatural, which doesn't square with someone who was raised in part in the Nevernever.
or he was born prior to FM.
Which brings up the question of why he wouldn't have been with his parents. Both of them know about the werewolf curse, meaning if they put the kid up for adoption, they know they're basically sending someone a time-bomb. Given the precautions we saw MacFinn take on himself, and Tera's general personality, that seems out of character for the both of them.
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Well, if Fitz was a minor maybe the curse does not kick in until 18 or adulthood? I cannot recall if he looks more like Tera or MacFinn. Maybe not her child?
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4. Harley MacFinn's death did not make his bloodline extinct; he had at least one younger relative, who inherited the curse.
First the MacFinn's bloodline curse was the curse on the original MacFinn, not our MacFinn. So, there can be many branches that are possible recruits to the Loup-Garou bloodline other than our MacFinn's kids. It also makes since for Tera West to want to join her 'pups' with the MacFinn bloodline since it allows the possibility for some pup descendants to live to the end of days. Perhaps even her bloodline endure till the last battle.
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This reminds me: The MacFinn loup-garou has existed for centuries (since the days of St. Patrick, according to legend), yet loup-garou massacres are extremely rare occurrences according to Bob. So it seems reasonable to suppose that every MacFinn loup-garou in history would have known how to restrain himself during the full moon, including the current one (as evidenced by the lack of loup-garou massacres since Harley's).
Does that make it more or less likely that Fitz is the (or perhaps just a) current MacFinn loup-garou?
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Chauncy said in "Fool Moon" that according to legend, St. Patrick cursed the MacFinn bloodline to become loup-garou, passing from generation to generation, and that the cursed bloodline would last until the end of days.
In light of this, I see four possibilities:
1. Chauncy was lying.
2. The legend was inaccurate.
3. The end of days had already arrived as of the end of "Fool Moon", ending the curse on the MacFinn bloodline.
4. Harley MacFinn's death did not make his bloodline extinct; he had at least one younger relative, who inherited the curse.
2UIt's not that I think it inaccurate, but incompletely given from a skewed perspective, Chauncey. I think, from how he says it and the function it provides, St. Patty cursed his own lineage to contain the beast.(which is the same metaphor used in Fenrir's story)
3 holds value to me especially as the idea it was Fenrir bound til Ragnarok. The thing kept in check by the curse was fearbringer turned to rage. They meant for Denton to become the new reflection but Murphy stopped that.
4 certainly possible... but what if he's only Terra's son from before MacFinn? From an animal standpoint it would make much more sense why she'd abandon him then vs the strength she loved in MacFinn being passed down.
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I think the key point is that MacFinn had a child with Tara West. After all, they did a little nookie in the book and that could have been the moment. Or it could have been any somewhat earlier moment in the last month. I suspect Tara would have know if pregnant longer than that.
The other explanations could be true, but the above one is by far the easiest.
I do not believe we have seen that child yet in the series. My personal feeling is that it will be a girl, not a boy. But that is just because Dresden bonds more closely with female characters, especially in the sense of his protective impulses. I am certain we will see that child at some point.
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One odd point I keep my eye on is Marcone and MacFinns eye's being similar when Marcone was younger.
Fitz literally meaning bastard seems too much of a coincidence when i'm busy looking for a likely Mordred archetype to John's Arthur. Of course like the Odin Thor/Zeus Hercules generational mash up seems confirmed by his given name, Vadderrung. So perhaps Mordred/Arthur are actually mushed vs Arthur/Uther?
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If Fitz is part wolf then maybe he matures at a faster pace and Fitz just thought he was big for his age.
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If Fitz is part wolf then maybe he matures at a faster pace and Fitz just thought he was big for his age.
Dog years huh? He'd had to grow smarter faster too.
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Well, not all dogs can be Mouse.
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Chauncy said in "Fool Moon" that according to legend, St. Patrick cursed the MacFinn bloodline to become loup-garou, passing from generation to generation, and that the cursed bloodline would last until the end of days.
In light of this, I see four possibilities:
1. Chauncy was lying.
2. The legend was inaccurate.
3. The end of days had already arrived as of the end of "Fool Moon", ending the curse on the MacFinn bloodline.
4. Harley MacFinn's death did not make his bloodline extinct; he had at least one younger relative, who inherited the curse.
Item 1 is almost surely true, though it may not be the complete explanation.
If you go back and reread that scene, there's an interesting point. Up until the curse came up, Chaunzogorroth had answered all Harry's questions straightforwardly, with simple declarative statements. Yes he is this, no he is not that, etc.
But when the curse was the subject, Chaunzogorroth suddenly switches to 'It is said..."
That way, even if what he's telling Harry is partly false, completely false, or a mix of truth and falsehood, or whatever, he still isn't technically lying as long as somebody somewhere said it.
Now, Chaunzogorroth is not a Sidhe, he can certainly lie, but it he wants to be summoned to Earth by lazy naďve/arrogant suckers like Harry, he has to be offering something at least potentially useful to bait the trap. So he can't afford to get a rep for lying. It would remove the only reason to summon him in the first place.
Which suggests to me that he was almost surely lying about at least some aspects of the link between Patrick and MacFinn, but lying in a Mab-ish way with the 'It is said'. After all, if matters were just as he was saying, he wouldn't need to say, "It is said...", he could say, "Saint Patrick cursed the family." But he did not.
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That could be because, as a demon, he can't make clear statements about anything TWG does; and based on what Bob said about how much power it takes to cast the Loup-garou curse on one person, let alone an entire bloodline, it was almost certainly TWG who had cursed the MacFinns.
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"Bastard" is closer to "illegitimate" in that regard, and Tera and Harvey were engaged, so I doubt that Fitz's name is a reference to Harvey's untimely death.
We're not done with Tera West yet. Listens-to-Wind knows her; he sends Harry her regards in Summer Knight, if memory serves, so there's another connection there. I really want a story where Tera calls the Alphas and Listens-to-Wind to protect her son. I need more Alphas.
I do think she was pregnant at the end. I don't think Jim would've added that bit about his bloodline never ending and having him be in a committed relationship for no reason. I don't think we've seen that child yet, but we might in the Young Adult series.
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That could be because, as a demon, he can't make clear statements about anything TWG does; and based on what Bob said about how much power it takes to cast the Loup-garou curse on one person, let alone an entire bloodline, it was almost certainly TWG who had cursed the MacFinns.
That's pretty much of an extreme reach. There's no reason Chaunzogorroth can't speak clearly on such matters, if he wants to. Likewise, it doesn't take a particularly huge amount of power to create such a curse, just a lot of skill. Harry thought it was likely he could break the curse with his own death curse, so we're not talking about cosmic levels of power.
The way to bet is the Chaunzogorroth lied with a technical truth, 'it is said'. It's what fits Occam's Razor.
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Likewise, it doesn't take a particularly huge amount of power to create such a curse, just a lot of skill.
Incorrect. According to Bob...
Someone has cursed them to become a wolflike demon, and usually at the full moon. That someone's got to be really powerful, too, like a major heavy-weight sorcerer or a demon lord or one of the Faerie Queens.
Why would a curse inflicted by a major heavy-weight sorcerer, demon lord, or Faerie Queen rather than by TWG be attributed to St. Patrick? Or was St. Patrick himself a major heavy-weight sorcerer?
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Patrick couldn't have been all bad; I agree with his policy on snakes.
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I wonder if a loup garu was used to help drive snakes from Ireland. Or snake like super naturals.
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The way to bet is the Chaunzogorroth lied with a technical truth, 'it is said'. It's what fits Occam's Razor.
I bet Thorned Namshiel could have cast such a curse, and then the Denarians made a point of saying it was done by a saint.
Hell propaganda, 101.
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I bet Thorned Namshiel could have cast such a curse, and then the Denarians made a point of saying it was done by a saint.
Hell propaganda, 101.
An interesting theory. Is there anything that suggests a connection between Thorned Namshiel and the MacFinns?
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Patrick couldn't have been all bad; I agree with his policy on snakes.
Nobody who saintly Michael shares a name with can be anything but holy.
I maintain he cursed himself for the greater good of containment.
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Soul fire allows Harry to affect things that his normal magic can't. With Macfinn, he was forced to use his amulet to kill him, I wonder if using soul fire he could instead aim a loup garu at monsters.
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I like Fitz as MacFinn and Terra West's son.
As to the curse passing on, it didn't hit MacFinn until he was in Viet Nam, so probably over 18.
That being said, there is no reason at all that the curse couldn't have been passed to another branch of the family.
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I like Fitz as MacFinn and Terra West's son.
As to the curse passing on, it didn't hit MacFinn until he was in Viet Nam, so probably over 18.
That being said, there is no reason at all that the curse couldn't have been passed to another branch of the family.
I don't remember it giving that impression? Just that it was intentionally used during Nam to survive.
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I'll have to check my text later.
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I can see the curse as being something that happens to an adult male and not a child.
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I wonder if the fomor were driven out of Ireland by a loup garu. They are said to be great at shapeshifting, so they would love to get access to one. I can just picture them getting torn to pieces by the beast.
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I think you are mixing stories. St. Patrick drove out the snakes in Ireland. Cursing MacFinn family was seperate act or am I wrong?
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I can see the curse as being something that happens to an adult male and not a child.
I'd imagine it passes upon the death of the progenitor. So cursed Dad dies, and the curse becomes active on the son.
Which would make the Terrible Twos considerable rougher.
I'm not sure if an infant could survive the shift. And honestly, this happening to a baby is so disturbing that I hope I'm wrong.
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I think you are mixing stories. St. Patrick drove out the snakes in Ireland. Cursing MacFinn family was seperate act or am I wrong?
In the absence of any evidence that St. Patrick specifically used a loup-garou to drive the snakes out of Ireland, they probably are two completely different things.
Part of the reason why I thought it was TWG who had given St. Patrick the power to curse the MacFinn bloodline was that Bob said it took a huge amount of power, like a demon lord or a faerie queen's level of power, to cast the loup-garou curse on one person, let alone an entire bloodline.
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In the absence of any evidence that St. Patrick specifically used a loup-garou to drive the snakes out of Ireland, they probably are two completely different things.
Part of the reason why I thought it was TWG who had given St. Patrick the power to curse the MacFinn bloodline was that []Bob said it took a huge amount of power, like a demon lord or a faerie queen's level of power, to cast the loup-garou curse on one person, let alone an entire bloodline.[/b]
Ahh.. But that's from the outside in, Margret Cursed Raith using her own bloodline quite easily O.O
otherwise poor St. Patrick is neither Fairie queen or demon lord..
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otherwise poor St. Patrick is neither Fairie queen or demon lord..
But he was in league with TWG. Knowing what Uriel could do to empower Michael, I am quite sure that if putting a loup-garou curse on the MacFinn bloodline was part of TWG's plan, he could have empowered St. Patrick to cast that curse.
More to the point, I think TWG is the only one who could have or would have done so. St. Patrick himself wouldn't have had more power than "a major heavy weight sorcerer or a demon lord or one of the Faerie Queens" unless TWG had wanted him to.
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You keep throwing around that word and it may not really apply.
Curse.
It may not have been a curse. It may have been a blessing to MacFinn's ancestor, and the setting up of a tool for the BAT.
It's just that the Down Below Crew view it as a curse, and subsequent generations don't see the benefits to becoming a ravaging, homicidal monster.
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That's the word that Bob, Harry, and Jim Butcher used to describe it.
For my part, I am inclined to agree that it's a case of "Cursed With Awesome," to use tvtropes terminology.
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Cursed with awesome and terrible power.
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Reminds me of a plot of an episode of Legend of the Seeker. In short, the Seeker and his group are in a kingdom that is being plagued by a monster at night.
Eventually, they find out that the monster is a member of the royal family, and the "curse" turning them into it was voluntary -- their ancestors opted into it so that the monster could protect them from an enemy force.
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I liked Legend of the Seeker. Especially Bridget Regan. Based of the Goodkind books, right?
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I liked Legend of the Seeker. Especially Bridget Regan. Based of the Goodkind books, right?
Yes, and much better than the books (the later ones, at least), if you ask me. Goodkind got way too much into Ayn Rand and let that take over his narrative.
The series keeps the adventure bits and excises the politics and benefits immensely from it (and from Craig Horner's abs. I'm straight, but goddamn).
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Yeah, after half a dozen books it was more preaching and less fighting.
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Yeah, after half a dozen books it was more preaching and less fighting.
That's an unfair assumption considering, while Richard acknowledges the creator, his logical approach to life leaves little reasoning at worship. The whole thing was supposed to 'preach'/teach. Like the adventures of Bonnie day in the story, this story was a primer to how to approach life logically and act with the right intentions and forthought. It's 90% of the reason I name myself Wizard, Nobody else got the damned easy to wrangle unwritten rules, Embrace Life, No matter your views or perspective.
I prefer to see a philosophical subtext, rather than a theological one.
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Can we agree to disagree due to personal feelings about how Goodkind chose to voice his belief without it being a point of tension?
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"Preach" in this context does not exclusively refer to religion.
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I wasn't refering to any religion. I was refering to frequently use of speeches instead of letting the action suggest itself.
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I wasn't refering to any religion. I was refering to frequently use of speeches instead of letting the action suggest itself.
Oh, well then Hell yes, it was preachy lol... but to be fair Tolkein was Breezy and longwinded by that same regard(hated reading endless landscape descriptions I always got lost in anyway)
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I was annoyed by the elf songs.
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Landscape descriptions were a close second. There is world building and then there is Tolkien world building.
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Landscape descriptions were a close second. There is world building and then there is Tolkien world building.
Many authors come up with a story, then create a world in which that story can take place.
Tolkien came up with languages, then created a world for them to live in, and then he decided to write down stories about that world.
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Has anybody ever figured out what the Macfinn family did in the first place to tick off St. Patrick?
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No, there is nothing in the books to suggest what it was.
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I am guessing something of a predatory or bestial nature; where the punishment fits the crime.
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I am guessing something of a predatory or bestial nature; where the punishment fits the crime.
Again, I'm not so sure it was a punishment. I know that's what it's been called, but that may not have been what it was.
If St. Patrick and MacFinn's ancestor knew that they were going to need a beasty like the Loup-Garu during the last battles, then it would have been a sacrifice, not a punishment.
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I am guessing something of a predatory or bestial nature; where the punishment fits the crime.
It was definitely because MacFinn's ancestors harbored snakes.
Joking aside, I don't think that there was an atrocity or a great "crime" in the sense that we're thinking. It doesn't make an awful lot of sense to curse someone by turning them into a nearly unstoppable killing machine for three nights a month. Like, you wouldn't punish Ted Bundy by giving him body armor and a belt-fed machine gun with easy access to an orphanage, you know? Saint Patrick gave him extraordinary, uncontrollable power, and basically unleashed him on the world. If he was an awful person who needed to be punished for, say, murdering a village-ful of women and children, you wouldn't turn him into a new apex predator; you'd turn him into prey.
I think that the curse was done because the alternative was worse. And the whole "and your line will never die out" was negotiated by MacFinn as payment for services rendered. There must have been major badness going on in Ireland at the time. The Romans pulled out of Britain in the early fifth century, and there was quite a bit of chaos in the region; chaos brings supernatural predators (see my thoughts on Hastings, Starborn, and the deaths of the Winter and Summer Ladies). I think there was something going on with the Tuatha, Firbolgs, and Fomor.
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It was definitely because MacFinn's ancestors harbored snakes.
Joking aside, I don't think that there was an atrocity or a great "crime" in the sense that we're thinking. It doesn't make an awful lot of sense to curse someone by turning them into a nearly unstoppable killing machine for three nights a month. Like, you wouldn't punish Ted Bundy by giving him body armor and a belt-fed machine gun with easy access to an orphanage, you know? Saint Patrick gave him extraordinary, uncontrollable power, and basically unleashed him on the world. If he was an awful person who needed to be punished for, say, murdering a village-ful of women and children, you wouldn't turn him into a new apex predator; you'd turn him into prey.
I think that the curse was done because the alternative was worse. And the whole "and your line will never die out" was negotiated by MacFinn as payment for services rendered. There must have been major badness going on in Ireland at the time. The Romans pulled out of Britain in the early fifth century, and there was quite a bit of chaos in the region; chaos brings supernatural predators (see my thoughts on Hastings, Starborn, and the deaths of the Winter and Summer Ladies). I think there was something going on with the Tuatha, Firbolgs, and Fomor.
Oh, I like this.
It fits in with Bob's description of why someone would make a deal with a demon for something like a Wolf-belt.
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Saint Patrick gave him extraordinary, uncontrollable power, and basically unleashed him on the world.
When looking at the volume of this particular cup I prefer to see the other 30ish days they then prevent the loup from rampaging. The belts... the belts are basically connections to spirits of rage, the loup is a spirit of rage, sans the curse I think it would have been easy for say... Denton? to mirror the rage well enough to incidently call the loups spirit instead of any random spirit of rage. Think that was part of pointing Dresden at him like a gun. But while Dresden successively demolishes the old, it's Murphy deciding for the new order of the day....(sorry, random thought on it)
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I think that the curse was done because the alternative was worse. And the whole "and your line will never die out" was negotiated by MacFinn as payment for services rendered. There must have been major badness going on in Ireland at the time.
Having at least one descendant turn into a killing machine every month for all eternity seems like overkill if all you want to do is quell some temporary "major badness going on in Ireland." Maybe it didn't seem so temporary to MacFinn or St. Patrick, but I'm rather inclined to believe that a higher power was playing a longer game than that.
Note also that despite the constant existence of a MacFinn loup-garou for about twenty thousand full moons, massacres attributed to a MacFinn loup-garou have been surprisingly rare. We know that Harley knew how to create a magic circle to contain himself, and that's why he himself didn't go on any rampages prior to Fool Moon.
Of course, it's possible that the rest of the MacFinns knew about untamed lands where they could go nuts without hurting anybody, but such areas have become increasingly rare over the centuries as human civilization has expanded. It seems pretty likely, therefore, that all of the MacFinns knew about the magic circle as well.
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Having at least one descendant turn into a killing machine every month for all eternity seems like overkill if all you want to do is quell some temporary "major badness going on in Ireland." Maybe it didn't seem so temporary to MacFinn or St. Patrick, but I'm rather inclined to believe that a higher power was playing a longer game than that.
Note also that despite the constant existence of a MacFinn loup-garou for about twenty thousand full moons, massacres attributed to a MacFinn loup-garou have been surprisingly rare. We know that Harley knew how to create a magic circle to contain himself, and that's why he himself didn't go on any rampages prior to Fool Moon.
Of course, it's possible that the rest of the MacFinns knew about untamed lands where they could go nuts without hurting anybody, but such areas have become increasingly rare over the centuries as human civilization has expanded. It seems pretty likely, therefore, that all of the MacFinns knew about the magic circle as well.
The circle might've been passed down along with the curse, a kind of family heirloom. I think it would have to be, considering that MacFinn didn't have any knowledge of how to repair it himself, and contacted Kim Delaney of all people—and inexperienced minor talent who had to go to Harry to find out what the circle actually did—to fix it for him. If it was something he built himself or had made, I think he would've had a Wizard or other more experienced talent he could call up to fix it.
Might even be that the circle was originally made when the curse was laid down.
You're right in that it seems like overkill for a temporary problem. I think it's likely that it served more than one purpose.
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It could also be that MacFinns father (whomever held the curse before him) had the circle built a LONG time ago and whomever helped him was no longer available?
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It could also be that MacFinns father (whomever held the curse before him) had the circle built a LONG time ago and whomever helped him was no longer available?
Pretty much what I'm thinking. His father, or mother, or grandparent, or whoever had it last passed it to the latest MacFinn. No idea how far back it was made. I just don't think it was MacFinn himself who had it built.
Aside from that, why wasn't there a backup plan? A second circle somewhere he could go? Seems like quite a bad oversight for someone who Hulks out and murders police precincts every twenty-seven days. EDIT: Duh, that's what the Northwest Passage project thing was all about. Preserving my question as a permanent reminder to myself of my own stupidity.
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That's okay I do so many mental farts in a day that my ears pop.
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That's okay I do so many mental farts in a day that my ears pop.
Yeah, my brain fart about the circle was probably worse.
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Pretty much what I'm thinking. His father, or mother, or grandparent, or whoever had it last passed it to the latest MacFinn. No idea how far back it was made. I just don't think it was MacFinn himself who had it built.
Aside from that, why wasn't there a backup plan? A second circle somewhere he could go? Seems like quite a bad oversight for someone who Hulks out and murders police precincts every twenty-seven days. EDIT: Duh, that's what the Northwest Passage project thing was all about. Preserving my question as a permanent reminder to myself of my own stupidity.
Simple complacency. How long had he gone with out an incident? he was safely contained or out in the wild from the time he was in Viet Nam for at least 30 years with no problems.
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Simple complacency. How long had he gone with out an incident? he was safely contained or out in the wild from the time he was in Viet Nam for at least 30 years with no problems.
As opposed to the 1500 or so years since the original curse was cast, which Harley was well aware of (hence his Northwest Passage backup plan).
While we don't know much about every Loup-garou MacFinn who ever existed, if they were all using the same protective circle since the curse was originally cast, it seems odd to suppose that none thought up a backup plan prior to Harley.
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As I recall, MacFinn didn't normally live in Chicago. It's possible that his back ups were in his normal residence and he wasn't able to bring more than the standard circle.
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As opposed to the 1500 or so years since the original curse was cast, which Harley was well aware of (hence his Northwest Passage backup plan).
While we don't know much about every Loup-garou MacFinn who ever existed, if they were all using the same protective circle since the curse was originally cast, it seems odd to suppose that none thought up a backup plan prior to Harley.
Also, didn't Chauncy say that his Grand-sire had gotten his money from the Rail Road boom here in the US? It's possible that the MacFinn's just didn't have the means to put together the circle before they had the money to buy the services of someone who would know how to build it, ie. a wizard.