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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on January 17, 2018, 07:52:20 PM
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In the thread on Queen Succession Rules, the topic about "the point at which the mantle of Lady would be destroyed came up. Mab defines it as the Lady "to become a mother." Her statement is as follows.
"Three Queens of Summer; three Queens of Winter," she said, that alien gaze returning to me. "Maiden, Mother, and Crone. You are the Maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear." The mantle protected itself--as it must.
"What?"
She tilted her head and stared at me. "It is all within the law. I suggest you spend a few hours each day meditating on it in the future. In time you will gain and adequate understanding of your limits."
We have seen that there is a self defense mechanism within the Lady mantle that prevents sex, but if push came to shove could a pregnant Lady exist. We know that only 'to become a mother' destroys it. Anyway, that is a topic of another thread. Now shift back to Harry's sperm :)
I have wondered if Harry, wielding the Knight's power, is having his sperm changed such that his children from this point forward will have greater fae genetics. I wondered how such condition would affect a child sired by Harry with Murphy. And should such child, fetus at this point, accompany Murphy in time traveling into the distant past to become Mab.
To simplify the main topic of discussion, I assert that Harry's future children will have very high levels of fae genetics.
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My guess is not, because the Knight is human and remains human, he doesn't transform over time into a Fae... So other than the higher risk for some birth defects due to Murphy being in her forties now, the baby would be all human with possible magical talent from Harry's side.
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Sperm needs to be warm to survive. I would not be at all surprised if the Winter Knight Mantle makes the Winter Knight incapable of having children via freezing them.
This would make a lot of sense. It allows the Winter Knight to have sex with the Winter Lady without fear of impregnation (means Harry, and Molly can get down and dirty, or at least the possibility is there for story reasons.)
On the flip side maybe it doesn't because it means that there is a good possibility that the Winter Knight can father a child with the Queen.
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My guess is not, because the Knight is human and remains human, he doesn't transform over time into a Fae... So other than the higher risk for some birth defects due to Murphy being in her forties now, the baby would be all human with possible magical talent from Harry's side.
We have learned that Molly had distant fae familial connections which was partly what allowed her to be shaped into a vessel. She needed more 'rehab' than usual because of these distant roots. It would follow then that a child sired by a Knight who holds power that originates from the Queens would be closer to the fae than what otherwise would be the case.
I'll go further to emphasize this, the Knight power originates from the Queens. So the Knight holds a Fae Mantle, part of the Queens and similar to many of the Elder Fae. I think a child of the Knight would be considered a changeling, or scion because of this.
It brings me back to Allison Ann Summers. Could she have been the murdered Summer Knights daughter? With Titania?
So, for my purposes onward I'm going to assume any child Harry has while wearing the Winter Knight will be a scion or changeling until proved otherwise.
Next question, Will Harry conceive of a child while wearing the Winter Knight mantle? Did Harry conceive of a child with Mab during Changes?
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It's not necessarily the genetics that would be changed, but the spiritual component. I still like to think that Dresdenverse mortals consist of body, spirit, and soul. Being exposed to Fae magic might change some of the spirit, which could be passed from parent to child.
That way, the body remains human.
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Wow, there is a discussion about Dresden’s sperm. Butcher really needs to get you guys some new material. :o ;D
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Changelings don't necessarily have to be first generation. It could be a from a Fae Grandparent or maybe even farther back
Quote from: Twitter conversation
Question among my @HarriedWizard RPG group for @longshotauthor : would changelings be sterile? and if not how would the genetics work?
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard No, not at all. And cautiously.
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard :D Consider it a dormant gene group that could potentially be activated by environmental exposure.
@longshotauthor @HarriedWizard So a half-elf changeling could have kids that when exposed 2 faerydom, child could exhibit faery qualities?
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard Yeah, though they'd need more exposure the wider the generation gap was. It would be impractical at some point.
Jim says to consider that "there is a dormant gene group that can be activated by environmental exposure." Based on that I think we can say that the Knight mantle is activating this gene group within his sperm such that should he sire a child, they will have a strong connection to the fae. Possibly qualifying as a scion or changeling. I mean we have Harry himself being suggested as not entirely human by Goodman Grey. It isn't such a stretch to believe that his kids are going to inherit extra potent fae activated genes due to his exposure to his mantle and proximity to the Queens. Let us not forget this exchange.
Harry: I am only human.
Mab: For now.
So, I think we can consider at some point Harry's kids born after are going to qualify as something other than 'human'. I'm again referring to changeling, scion, etc.
I'd also say he has an existing set of same or similar genes derived most likely from his mother. I and others have found it likely that Harry is descended from some faerie or Vadderung. We do have Maggie Le Fey as Harry's mother. It is likely she has fairy roots somewhere.
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Jim says to consider that "there is a dormant gene group that can be activated by environmental exposure." Based on that I think we can say that the Knight mantle is activating this gene group within his sperm such that should he sire a child, they will have a strong connection to the fae. Possibly qualifying as a scion or changeling. I mean we have Harry himself being suggested as not entirely human by Goodman Grey. It isn't such a stretch to believe that his kids are going to inherit extra potent fae activated genes due to his exposure to his mantle and proximity to the Queens.
He's talking about physical offspring with his statement, not someone just exposed to Fae magic. You're assuming (perhaps correctly, but not assuredly) that Harry has Fae genetics. He might not.
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One, I think Harry does have Fae genetics. I mean we see that Molly had dormant Fae genetics with greater generational gap. We do have Harry's mother gifted with navigating the Nevernever and earning the Le Fay moniker. I think it reasonable to assume Harry already had a dormant gene group.
Two, Harry holds a Fae mantle. This essentially qualifies him as some quasi Fae entity that operates in an area that straddles Fae and Human realms. So, I'd imagine that the Fae mantle is changing, inserting, or activating this gene group for his future offspring and this gene group of course lies on the genes carried by his sperm. That is why I posed the question including it.
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Not to poo-poo ... but I think this thread is all the evidence we need that we need new material to discuss.
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Agreed. There is a legitimate inquiry here. It could be rephrased better, but still it would about the same thing: the genetic information Harry passes from himself to his children post accepting winter mantle. Would you suggest another term?
(Assuming Harry is at some point descended from fae and has the fairy gene group)
Does the winter knight mantle reactivate Harry's own dormant genes.
Does the winter knight mantle strengthen faeries genes within Harry's sperm thereby strengthening his future children's connection to faerie.
For Fix:
Fix has the fairy gene group.
He has the Summer Knight mantle and his physique/appearance has changed while wielding it.
Has the Knight mantle further activated these genes for himself?
Has the Summer Knight mantle affected his sperm, specifically the fairy gene group that is partly carried on it.
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I'd think that turning the Knight part fae would entirely defeat the purpose of having a mortal as the Knight who can do all the things the fae can't.
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The fae and sidhe in general can kill mortals. Queens can't. It wouldn't prevent the Knight from carrying out his duty to kill for the Queen.
Also, I don't think necessarily that the reactivation of his fairy genes means he is fae, I think it may mean that any fae genetics influencing physical appearance will get expressed, at least as seen by us. I did though state that he, as a Knight holding power that originated from the Queens, is a quasi-fae entity that has a set of rules binding him, at least so long as he wears the mantle.
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I'm trying to remember, when Harry was on DR with the two ladies, did he mention that they looked alike now?
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I'm trying to remember, when Harry was on DR with the two ladies, did he mention that they looked alike now?
I don't think so. Are you thinking about him realizing that Maeve, and Sarissa looked alike?
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I do not think creating a child in the dresdenverse is just sperm and egg, it is also spiritual. Parts of Haryy and Murphy’s spirit and soul are merged to make a new spirit and soul.
Much like Bonnie actually.
The influence of the mantle will be minimal if Harry keeps a good seperation between himself and the mantle, keeps being himself.
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I'm trying to remember, when Harry was on DR with the two ladies, did he mention that they looked alike now?
Yes, Maeve and Sarissa looked alike. Their fairy gene group is highly active such they look much like a typical fairy princess would, even Sarissa prior to getting the mantle by virtue of being daughter of the Queen. That is how I see it. There would be a blending between Mab the individual's genetics, the father's genetics, and the fairy genetics for both Maeve and Sarissa. The Lady mantle would further push Maeve toward the Lady archetype, but given Mab had been Queen 800+ years, I think her eggs had a heavy does of fairy genetics infused into them such that there wouldn't be a drastic difference in appearance between Maeve and Sarissa. They are both daughters of the Queen.
I do not think creating a child in the dresdenverse is just sperm and egg, it is also spiritual. Parts of Haryy and Murphy’s spirit and soul are merged to make a new spirit and soul.
The point is that Jim has said the offspring of Fae and Humans have a fairy 'gene group' that becomes a 'dormant gene group' the further the 'generational gap' between changeling and subsequent generation. Genetics are passed on via egg and sperm so I assumed that this gene group is partly found within each. You may argue creating a child is also part spiritual, well I'd argue in terms of fairy genetics that a "spirtual" piece of the fairy genetics exist with the egg/sperm.
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I think Id be willing to buy that becoming the Host for any significant chunk of the Fae Queen Mantles, including the Knight, would be high enough exposure to the most primal powers of Faedom could be enough to cause a spontaneous mutation development of the Fae Gene-group, especially given that we already know it is substantially responsive to environmental Stimuli. And on top of that I could easily buy that regularly mixing Winter energy with your own Magic would promote (if not guarantee) that process, at least relative to a host who does not regularly channel that purified energy. And that's not even considering the implications of mixing Winter Power and SOULFIRE
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Yes, Maeve and Sarissa looked alike.
Sorry, I was referring to Maeve and Lily. Did THEY look alike. I just don't recall.
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Lily started to look like Aurora, who looked somewhat like Maeve in SK.
So, in time likely but not as close as Sarissa and Maeve at that point.
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Ya, it was a little weird and caused some wrinkles in the casting threads: per the initial descriptions, Maeve and Aurora look more like twins than Maeve and Sarissa. In SK the resemblance was instantly noticeable to the point that Aurora had to wear a disguise the first time she met Harry. But it took all of CD and then literally standing them next to each other before anyone noticed.
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Maeve and Sarissa weren't identical twins though.
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Maeve and Sarissa weren't identical twins though.
They were still Biological twins though, even if not identical. It's still odd that cousins would look more alike than biological twins, I would think. Though now we are talking the daughters of biological Identical twins vs direct non-Identical Twins, and I have no clue how the genetic odds fall out there. :o :o
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Well, that is where I think the mantles come into play to change the person's appearance. Lily was changing closer to Aurora. Maeve and Aurora had become 'identical twins' faerie wise perhaps. Maeve and Lily was on that progression. Maeve had already reached that state. Lily was progressing.
I'd argue before that Maeve, Sarissa, and Aurora had tier 1 princess fairy genes. That could mean they are closer to the state of what a fairy Lady should look like and need less 'changing' than others.
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Ya, it was a little weird and caused some wrinkles in the casting threads: per the initial descriptions, Maeve and Aurora look more like twins than Maeve and Sarissa. In SK the resemblance was instantly noticeable to the point that Aurora had to wear a disguise the first time she met Harry. But it took all of CD and then literally standing them next to each other before anyone noticed.
Harry calls them identical twins, so I think Maeve and Sarissa looked very much like each other. Their differences we're likely mostly cosmetic - clothes, hair color, make up, and mannerisms. Also, Harry had a lot going on probably spent more time looking at Maeve's body than her face.
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Harry calls them identical twins, so I think Maeve and Sarissa looked very much like each other. Their differences we're likely mostly cosmetic - clothes, hair color, make up, and mannerisms. Also, Harry had a lot going on probably spent more time looking at Maeve's body than her face.
I agre in general, they clearly look very similar. But given that it took several people (including Murphy the Trained Observer with No Penis) a decent amount of time and a side-by-side comparison to notice the similarity, while with Aurora it was instantly obvious to the point where Aurora needed to use actual illusions to hide her face.
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They were also fighting like sisters. That was the immediate clue. Murphy pretty much got it then.
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Yeah, noone gives a person as much crap as a sibling.
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They were also fighting like sisters. That was the immediate clue. Murphy pretty much got it then.
Precisely, the clues were behavioral rather than the striking and purely physical resemblance between Maeve and Aurora
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Yeah, I agree.
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I'm trying to remember, when Harry was on DR with the two ladies, did he mention that they looked alike now?
From SG it seems Molly and Sarissa do not suddenly look more like each other... the statues changed into them instead.
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I know there was mention in PG about Lily seeming more like a Lady and a Fae, but was there any mention of her physically looking more like Maeve, maybe in the Intimidation at Mac's scene?
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For just a fraction of a second, Maeve’s smug exterior changed, becoming graver, more somber. In that instant, she and Lily looked as though they might have been fraternal twins. “With absolute certainty.”
This makes Jim's WOJ about Mab and Titania being "actual twin sisters" being possibly less about the specific individuals than those that hold the mantles and to which they are shaped into.
However, Maeve does state that Aurora was her 'cousin'...
participating in their conversation. “You did kill my cousin, wizard,”
That said, Mother Summer calls the Winter Fae cousins.
I felt myself growing tenser as a marching column of armored Sidhe soldiers came stepping lightly along the ground behind us, catching up quickly. Mother Summer guided me slightly aside so that we weren’t in the column’s way, and they started going by us. I didn’t think much of it until someone at the front of the column called out in a clear voice, and as one the Sidhe came to a halt with a solid, simultaneous stomp of a couple of hundred boots. The voice barked another command, and the Sidhe all turned to face us. “Uh-oh,” I said. Mother Summer touched my hand with hers, and reassurance bathed me like June sunshine. “Shhh.” The voice barked another command, and as one the Sidhe lowered themselves to one knee and bowed their heads.
“Good morrow, cousins,” Mother Summer said, her voice solemn. She took her hand off my arm and passed it in a broad, sweeping arch over the kneeling soldiers. Subtle, subtle power thrummed delicately in the air. “Go forth with my blessing.”
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This makes Jim's WOJ about Mab and Titania being "actual twin sisters" being possibly less about the specific individuals than those that hold the mantles and to which they are shaped into.
However, Maeve does state that Aurora was her 'cousin'...
That said, Mother Summer calls the Winter Fae cousins.
The question that got that WOJ was specifically asking the "Biological" relationship between Mab and Titania. Are you thinking the mantles might have altered the host DNA so much that it took unrelated people (mortals, changelings, whatever) and /made/ them genetic twins?
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Yep.
It would allow our mab and titania to not be twins, prior to there ascension, while remaining consistent with his woj. This is supported by the lady mantels over time making each lady simular to each other.
It would in effect allow a hurdle both my and ms. Ducks theory share to be passed.
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Yep.
It would allow our mab and titania to not be twins, prior to there ascension, while remaining consistent with his woj. This is supported by the lady mantels over time making each lady simular to each other.
It would in effect allow a hurdle both my and ms. Ducks theory share to be passed.
Twisty. Fun 8)