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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Helga Ozark on August 08, 2020, 04:53:35 AM

Title: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Helga Ozark on August 08, 2020, 04:53:35 AM
My partner and I have been arguing over Justine's true nature in PT. As a casual lurker on this site I thought I'd see what everyone else thinks.
Thomas keeps trying to say her name every time Harry tries talk to him
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. He's quite insistent about it even after Harry reassures him that he'll look after her and that she is safe. Then Grey called her a femme fatale.
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My other WAG regards the sword of faith...
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Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 08, 2020, 11:22:55 AM
Goodman Grey has been infected with Noir Syndrome (suffers blackouts where he internal monologues  like a hard boiled detective) he caught it from Harry. Check out Monsters his POV story. My god it actually makes more sense than Conjouritis, as you have two victims.

The spoilers have both been extensively discussed in their threads, Nemesis allow one to act without the normal restriction. Cat Sith wants to kill Harry from meeting him, he literally can’t because of his oath to Mab. Mortals operate under free will, it is pointless nemfecting them.

The exposition about the sword faith is important but whether it is important in the context of Thomas is another matter
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: morriswalters on August 08, 2020, 09:49:36 PM
Thomas never says Justine's name.  Harry assumes it.  It means something, but your guess is as good as anybody's.

Your WAG about Butter's sword is probably on target, or else Jim wasted a lot of setup by going through that rigamarole about the sword not cutting flesh.

Thomas had to confront the harm he had caused.  He is a serial killer after all. Bet on the guy in the cell next door to be on top of that. My money was on Thomas dying. but it looks like I was wrong.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 08, 2020, 10:16:21 PM
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Your WAG about Butter's sword is probably on target, or else Jim wasted a lot of setup by going through that rigamarole about the sword not cutting flesh.

Very true, except when will Butters and Thomas get together?  However Butters may be able to kill the baby's Hunger saving both Justine and the baby..  Oh here is another far out WAG, until Thomas is released or dies, Butters stays with Justine and acts as a father to the baby.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 08, 2020, 11:38:23 PM
What if to get the monster (Ethnui or Corb) Butters needs to slice through Harry or an innocent being held as a shield, it may be a set up for that. Use of the sword on a innocent destroyed or imperilled the swords. Someone relying on that now with this sword of Faith is really going to lose their head (which frankly would be poetic justice for Nudd). The old innocent trick has been tried twice in the DF and must have been used multiple times in the past. Not any longer.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 08, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
What if to get the monster (Ethnui or Corb) Butters needs to slice through Harry or an innocent being held as a shield, it may be a set up for that. Use of the sword on a innocent destroyed or imperilled the swords. Someone relying on that now with this sword of Faith is really going to lose their head (which frankly would be poetic justice for Nudd). The old innocent trick has been tried twice in the DF and must have been used multiple times in the past. Not any longer.

Or more like slice through Justine, thus saving the day and killing the Hunger.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Helga Ozark on August 09, 2020, 12:52:49 AM
The spoilers have both been extensively discussed in their threads, Nemesis allow one to act without the normal restriction. Cat Sith wants to kill Harry from meeting him, he literally can’t because of his oath to Mab. Mortals operate under free will, it is pointless nemfecting them.
Re spoilers...yeah, I wasn't sure of the rules on what should and shouldn't be under a spoiler tag even on a spoiler board. My bad  :)
Re Nemfections....Do we know for certain that Nemesis only infects beings without will or have certain restrictions? (I haven't read the short stories in Brief Cases so I don't know if there are any clues there). Humans have ethical and moral restrictions too. Michael would never abandon his wife and children. He has free will to do so but it's against his nature.

Thomas never says Justine's name.  Harry assumes it.  It means something, but your guess is as good as anybody's.
Exactly. The alternative is that Thomas is trying to say someone else's name. Justin is the only other character that I remember that starts with "J" but would Thomas know him?

What if to get the monster (Ethnui or Corb) Butters needs to slice through Harry or an innocent being held as a shield, it may be a set up for that.
True, there may be lots of reasons why the "safety sword" was introduced. The romantic in me wants the sword to save the baby though ;)
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: morriswalters on August 09, 2020, 04:44:00 AM
Gibberish is gibberish.  Thomas doesn't say anything intelligible.  This is Jim playing with expectations.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 09, 2020, 05:30:00 AM
I don't think it's a safe sword per se... I think it plays to the perceptions of the holder and who they think is an enemy or not. It won't hurt someone the welder doesn't believe is bad. That gives it room for error(reminds me specifically of the sword of truth)
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 09, 2020, 08:16:22 AM
The baby might not need saving, remember a hunger dies if the Whamp falls in love and gains True Love Protection before first feeding. Technically this has happened here and the hunger and the baby shouldn’t have survived, the survival of the baby suggests something deeply strange is happening which might give Harry the info he needs to save Thomas hunger and not just Thomas. At the moment the hunger is too interlaced with Thomas, even if you could remove it Thomas would be wrong this is a lesson from Molly. The sword is a sword, not a scalpel, and it’s wielder hates operating on living people.

The baby is born in February/ March and to the whamps it is wrong to them , they call in Harry, and he perhaps call in Molly, and determine what is wrong, and it is that knowledge which will save Thomas. There may have been a medical reason why papa wraith killed his sons, a recessive tendency for his male offspring to become something else,  not Whamp. The baby is what Thomas could become. He is around to be asked. He may know why Justine conceived in the first place,  despite being under True Love with Thomas. Thomas consulted the family records, not his father who should know something.

Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 09, 2020, 10:48:40 AM


   Auntie Lara might have something to say about it though.   
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: ClintACK on August 09, 2020, 11:59:53 AM
The baby is born in February/ March and to the whamps it is wrong to them , they call in Harry, and he perhaps call in Molly, and determine what is wrong, and it is that knowledge which will save Thomas. There may have been a medical reason why papa wraith killed his sons, a recessive tendency for his male offspring to become something else,  not Whamp. The baby is what Thomas could become. He is around to be asked. He may know why Justine conceived in the first place,  despite being under True Love with Thomas. Thomas consulted the family records, not his father who should know something.

Interesting. I'm struck by the possible February birthday. Thomas's birthday is Valentine's Day. Will his child share his birthday? Does it mean something?
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 09, 2020, 12:14:17 PM
Interesting. I'm struck by the possible February birthday. Thomas's birthday is Valentine's Day. Will his child share his birthday? Does it mean something?
until Eb came out with his once every 666 years bit I was certain it shared a very metaphysical meaning close to starborn status... Now idk... Still seems an oddity.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: ClintACK on August 09, 2020, 01:06:10 PM
Metaphysical status in the Dresdenverse can be conveyed by the belief of mortals (see: fake Shroud of Turin).

The Hallmark Card image of baby cupid and its association with Valentine's Day is pretty strong these days.

It would be pretty cool if Thomas and Justine gave birth to Cupid. (A WCV with a redeemed/transformed Hunger that "feeds" on True Love. I'm imagining a future as a matchmaker or wedding planner or the like.)
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 09, 2020, 07:37:35 PM
Interesting. I'm struck by the possible February birthday. Thomas's birthday is Valentine's Day. Will his child share his birthday? Does it mean something?

It could we only know Peace Talks is set in July and that Justine is 6 weeks pregnant, if it is the first week in July,  it makes a due date around the middle of February. Better than middle March, born on the 15th would be inauspicious.

If a boy born on Thomas birthday what about Valentine Harry LeFay? I can’t see a cupid being registered under the Raith name. If the child feeds on True Love (constantly renewing) rather than life-force (which can be depleted to death)  then the touch of someone in True Love would power up (probably slower though, not one big gulp). The Vampire strength, speed, agility, healing and attractiveness would be retained. The vampire sense for prey would be changed to be able to ascertain compatible matches and the power to influence to direct a meeting, overcoming shyness and facilitating true love. He would get invited to a lot of weddings, and all the signs of true love roses, wedding rings, wedding cake would be able to power him up remotely.

Amorrachius may also have some effect. If the child is a cupid, then it suggests Thomas has the potential to change his hunger into a cupid as well. Papa Raith killed his sons, maybe because of this potential? The Whamp is a larval form? Thomas is also a lesser magic user, could that have a effect on the child and Thomas.

Whilst a baby is how a cupid is often portrayed, the other classical portrayal is as a beautiful youth nearly naked with wings. Check Thomas costume at Bianca’s in Grave Peril. Jim has oft said that he had the entire story arc plotted out from Storm Front, foreshadowing as with the birthdate.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 09, 2020, 11:23:54 PM


   If it is accurate, she could be off one way or another as far as to how far along she is.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Helga Ozark on August 10, 2020, 12:04:15 AM
I don't think that there's anything special about incubus wamps that Papa Raith hates other than competition. In BR (I think), Thomas says that his father controls his daughters by feeding on them (which is icky) but he killed or arranged the deaths of his male offspring because "his tastes don't run that way". He doesn't control his sons by feeding on them so they are a potential threat to his power and can overthrow him.
I like the cupid angle. Maybe Maggie senior arranged something with Thomas the same way she arranged for Harry to be starborn.

Anyway..I definitely think we are being misdirected in some way. There are constant references to Harry's father, a stage magician and they are all about misdirection so there is something that's hidden in plain sight for us....whether that's Justine, her baby or something else.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Bad Alias on August 10, 2020, 02:04:22 AM
Nemesis allow one to act without the normal restriction. Cat Sith wants to kill Harry from meeting him, he literally can’t because of his oath to Mab. Mortals operate under free will, it is pointless nemfecting them.
The normal restrictions on mortals is different than for fairies. If we take your first sentence as correct, then the assumption isn't that there's no point to infecting mortals; it's that infecting mortals will allow them to act without the normal restriction. The question then becomes what is the normal restriction for mortals.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 10, 2020, 10:43:21 AM
There isn’t one, it’s free will, though I suppose mortals could be used as disease vectors to get to a more powerful entity. A Nemfected Whampire, the closest monster to a human, would probably lose the True Love Protection restriction. Lara therefore isn’t Nemfected. With Wizards its probably losing the power lost on swearing on their power and breaking it, or being able to cross a threshold without losing their power Eb asks to enter Harry’s temporary apartment. It strikes me that the domestic bliss of Thomas Apartment, with Justine and a baby on the way mean’t that his apartment had a threshold, and a normal wizard couldn’t enter or push through a spell into the apartment without drastic power loss.

Suppose Thomas Apartment was being survielled by a wizard because it originally didn’t have a threshold, but one started forming when the baby was conceived? and a family came into being. That would reduce the surveillance a wizard could do and they would have to resort to more mundane methods. That may explain the lack of magical residue, and the need to attack the main Raith residence (no threshold) instead for information despite the heightened risk of being found out.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 10, 2020, 01:59:57 PM
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Suppose Thomas Apartment was being survielled by a wizard because it originally didn’t have a threshold, but one started forming when the baby was conceived? and a family came into being. That would reduce the surveillance a wizard could do and they would have to resort to more mundane methods. That may explain the lack of magical residue, and the need to attack the main Raith residence (no threshold) instead for information despite the heightened risk of being found out.
  Thomas' apartment is his and Justine's home, ergo it has a threshold.  That is some protection, against some invasions but not all, for that one needs wards.  Thomas doesn't have that kind of skill and apparently he never asked Harry to put them on.  However a threshold means nothing if whoever or whatever was invited in, that wouldn't leave any magical residue either.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 10, 2020, 04:55:01 PM
Wards are for when you really don’t have a threshold, a bachelor living alone in a rented temporary apartment generates a de minimus threshold. The BFS and Edinburgh headquarters need wards because they are nobody’s home. Karrin’s home has a threshold but requires additional protection. The Carpenters have an enormous threshold, but that is weakening as the children grow up and leave home, hence the Angels Thomas living on his own none (monster) Justine moving in de minimis, her establishing it as a home, slightly more. Making a home for a baby kerching meaningful threshold.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 10, 2020, 05:04:40 PM
🤔 wards are for everyone. most wards are specifically set upon thresholds to draw power from them, this is how Dresden's operate. How the BFS sets wards on everyone's house.. Edinburgh only has wards because they have those stone things that can power them independently.
Wards without thresholds are generally one time use.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Bad Alias on August 10, 2020, 05:17:43 PM
Wards are for when you really don’t have a threshold, a bachelor living alone in a rented temporary apartment generates a de minimus threshold. The BFS and Edinburgh headquarters need wards because they are nobody’s home. Karrin’s home has a threshold but requires additional protection. The Carpenters have an enormous threshold, but that is weakening as the children grow up and leave home, hence the Angels Thomas living on his own none (monster) Justine moving in de minimis, her establishing it as a home, slightly more. Making a home for a baby kerching meaningful threshold.
It's implied Thomas has a threshold in Cold Days because he wonders how Cat Sith was able to enter uninvited. Harry normally anchors wards onto thresholds. See Harry's discussion of his wards on the storage container in Turn Coat. Marcone's castle has a threshold. Harry said so in Ghost Story. Edinburgh has people living there. I don't know if it's enough to form a threshold of any magnitude.

Wards are for everyone who can get them.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 10, 2020, 05:37:02 PM
Wards are for when you really don’t have a threshold, a bachelor living alone in a rented temporary apartment generates a de minimus threshold. The BFS and Edinburgh headquarters need wards because they are nobody’s home. Karrin’s home has a threshold but requires additional protection. The Carpenters have an enormous threshold, but that is weakening as the children grow up and leave home, hence the Angels Thomas living on his own none (monster) Justine moving in de minimis, her establishing it as a home, slightly more. Making a home for a baby kerching meaningful threshold.

That isn't true, if I remember correctly Harry says, including his place, that while bachelor homes are less strong, there is still one.  I also remember that Elaine reinforced the the threshold for the paranet.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 11, 2020, 07:24:02 AM
Thomas’s threshold would be piddly like Harry’s was, as a bachelor it certainly didn’t stop the Toad Demon etc. Harry ended up getting a steel door, and warded up the Wazoo (a technical wizarding term). It’s a big difference losing 5% of your power as opposed to 95%. It is interesting though that Whamps can threshold.

The issue is when a threshold is strong enough to force a Wizard to leave most of their power at the door, or significantly depower a spell sent through it, and thresholds are variable changing over time and circumstance. Mort split his house into home and business to maintain his threshold for example.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 11, 2020, 09:25:43 AM
Harry had to leave his power at the door to even go into an apartment in WN, which is a piddly threshold indeed... And Morts whole threshold was damaged by linking business with home too....
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 11, 2020, 05:54:23 PM
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Thomas’s threshold would be piddly like Harry’s was, as a bachelor it certainly didn’t stop the Toad Demon etc. Harry ended up getting a steel door, and warded up the Wazoo (a technical wizarding term). It’s a big difference losing 5% of your power as opposed to 95%. It is interesting though that Whamps can threshold.

If I remember correctly the Toad Demon gained access to Harry's place because Susan innocently opened the door for it, which was the same as inviting it in.  An invitation cancels threshold and ward protections.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 11, 2020, 07:10:23 PM
Opening a door is not enough, there has to be an express invitation, see the occasions where Harry has asked to be invited.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 11, 2020, 07:37:35 PM
Opening a door is not enough, there has to be an express invitation, see the occasions where Harry has asked to be invited.


Just went back and checked, the threshold did stop it for a while, it had to gather strength to break through it.  Then Harry's circle down in the lab stopped it cold, except Bob accidentally on purpose
sort of directed Susan to drink the love potion instead of the escape potion.  As Harry said a three foot circle isn't enough room for things like that.. Bob did get the escape potion to them only after he got a 24 hour freedom pass.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 11, 2020, 08:21:41 PM
Yeah because Harry had a piddly threshold, had that been the Carpenters, the biggest threat of Toad crossing the threshold would have been slipping on the the ectoplasm before it sublimated. Not all thresholds are equal and Jim has been deliberately vague on the point in book to give himself wiggle room.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 11, 2020, 09:01:06 PM
Yeah because Harry had a piddly threshold, had that been the Carpenters, the biggest threat of Toad crossing the threshold would have been slipping on the the ectoplasm before it sublimated. Not all thresholds are equal and Jim has been deliberately vague on the point in book to give himself wiggle room.

Yeah, Jim has always maintained the stronger the family, the stronger the threshold.  At that time it was just Harry, Mister, and Bob, I am sure it is much stronger now with the addition of Maggie. 
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 12, 2020, 02:08:21 AM
And Bonea.
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 12, 2020, 03:56:11 AM
And Bonea.

Forgot about her and last but not least, Mouse. ;)
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Bad Alias on August 13, 2020, 06:14:18 PM
Forgot about her and last but not least, Mouse. ;)
Home is where the dog is.  ;)
Title: Re: There's something about Justine (PT and BG spoilers +WAG)
Post by: Mira on August 13, 2020, 06:27:23 PM
Home is where the dog is.  ;)

Indeed! ;D