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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on August 07, 2020, 01:18:42 PM
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I am still mostly on board with the idea that it was Mab who manipulated Thomas for her own four dimensional chess reasons in the greater game. Then another thought came to me, if not Mab,who? One logical candidate for that is Nic. He lost a lot of prestige and power at the end of Skin Game. Damn straight, he wants it back, and he wants revenge. He hosts Andruiel who knows almost everything that is going on, so Nic would know about the dilemma that Thomas and Justine face with her pregnancy. He also has the Grail, with that he could possibly if not heal outright, at least keep the Hunger from eating Justine. While Thomas might know better than to accept a coin, he might agree to blow up the peace talks by an assassination attempt in exchange for keeping Justine safe. Nic gets his revenge against Mab and Harry. He may even think in a perverse way, if he uses the Grail to heal Chicago in the aftermath, he will gain lots of influence and power. He becomes a hero that even Michael would have a hard time faulting, thus putting him in the catbird seat once again.
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The Shroud is the healer, the Grail is a purifier, in Arthurian Lore whilst many powerful knights sought the Grail, only the pure virgin Galahad was able to obtain it. Paging Mr Carlos Ramirez.
I think Harry will at some point for the first time take the fight to Nicky ending the Denarians and finding out vital info as to the Fall. He will need the Grail for part of a larger ritual (cleansing of Nemesis) but one one the best person to be able to use the grail will Carlos and/or Molly. Imagine a spell so large it requires 5 wizards to anchor it each with affinities to each of the objects. As a weapon Harry would have the Athame, Carlos the Grail, Listens to Wind the Shroud, leaving the Crown of Thorns and Placard to others. If I am right and the Crown is Thorn manacles for a god, and the Placard a communicator (both to the person afflicted and the world), you would need Wizards with affinities in those areas, GateKeeper and the Merlin perhaps? This could kill the older participants.
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Thomas created this problem himself. He was running low and starving his hunger again. Justine must have had true love protection since the conception so when Thomas lost control the demon could not fed on her and became even more crazy and ran out of control to the nearest food source it remembered, the svartalf embassy.
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Thomas created this problem himself. He was running low and starving his hunger again. Justine must have had true love protection since the conception so when Thomas lost control the demon could not fed on her and became even more crazy and ran out of control to the nearest food source it remembered, the svartalf embassy.
1] How do you figure Justine had true love protection since the conception? She had sex with another so her and Thomas could have sex, somehow she conceived, if she still had true love
protection, she wouldn't be in any danger from the embyro Hunger, in fact her placenta should burn it out.. However she has no protection, she lost that in Ghost Story.
I think you are confused, it isn't Thomas' demon Hunger that is feeding on her, it is their baby's Hunger demon.. Unless because Thomas is half non vamp, and Justine is all vanilla human, their child had no Hunger demon. If that is the case, poor Thomas put himself through a lot for nothing.
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I wouldn't necessarily assume True Love protection would make the pregnancy safe for Justine. It *could*, but it's not guaranteed.
True Love isn't a bane to all Whampires and the "type" may not be genetic (Madrigal Raith fed on fear). There's a WOJ suggesting the division in what Whampires feed on is largely political/cultural.
So maybe you would need True Love, True Courage, and True Hope to be protected from an incipient, not-yet-specialized Hunger.
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1] How do you figure Justine had true love protection since the conception? She had sex with another so her and Thomas could have sex, somehow she conceived, if she still had true love
protection, she wouldn't be in any danger from the embyro Hunger, in fact her placenta should burn it out.. However she has no protection, she lost that in Ghost Story.
And she got the protection again after they had sex and confirmed their love. Rinse and repeat as said in ghost story.
So she lost it again and she got it again. The important thing is that after Thomas decided not to feed from Justine again, when he discovered Justine’s pregnancy, Justine had no sex with other people. Justine got her protection and Thomas decided to keep the protection and for that he had to stop feeding himself, he starved his demon.
I think you are confused, it isn't Thomas' demon Hunger that is feeding on her, it is their baby's Hunger demon.. Unless because Thomas is half non vamp, and Justine is all vanilla human, their child had no Hunger demon. If that is the case, poor Thomas put himself through a lot for nothing.
Why should the true love protection work against the demon inside the child in the womb? I see no reason why it has to though Jim could decide so. But I think he did not.
And of course the baby hunger is feeding on her but that does not mean Thomas hunger does not want to feed on her and fed on her in the past. Until Thomas stopped.
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And she got the protection again after they had sex and confirmed their love. Rinse and repeat as said in ghost story.
No, she had sex with another person, that ended her protection, then her and Thomas could touch each other and have sex without him getting burned. Harry was protected by his and Susan's love from Lara's kiss, it burned her. When he had sex with Luccio the protection ended.
Why should the true love protection work against the demon inside the child in the womb? I see no reason why it has to though Jim could decide so. But I think he did not.
It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine. If she still had true love's protection, it couldn't do that, it would burn it.
Thomas' Hunger has nothing to do with it, he is feeding elsewhere.
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No, she had sex with another person, that ended her protection, then her and Thomas could touch each other and have sex without him getting burned. Harry was protected by his and Susan's love from Lara's kiss, it burned her. When he had sex with Luccio the protection ended.
It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine. If she still had true love's protection, it couldn't do that, it would burn it.
Thomas' Hunger has nothing to do with it, he is feeding elsewhere.
Thomas in chapter one is not a stable well fed vampire. It reads as the beginning of a collapse.
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Thomas was feeding on Evanna and other Swartalves, a bit here a bit there.
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Thomas in chapter one is not a stable well fed vampire. It reads as the beginning of a collapse.
But what he is worried about is this..
page 2 Peace Talks
"The usual, mostly, Except that the baby's Hunger will draw life energy from Justine. She's going to be fed upon continuously for the next seven and a half months.
I studied him. "Is that dangerous?"
He swallowed. "According to the family records, just over fifty percent either don't survive the delivery or die shortly after."
It isn't about Thomas starving himself or feeding off of Justine, it is about the baby's Hunger feeding off of her to the point where she is too weak to survive giving birth.
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Thomas would become an out and out monster like his father except for Justine.
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Thomas would become an out and out monster like his father except for Justine.
And Harry as well, remember when Thomas broke with his family and went to live with Harry he tried very hard not to feed to the point of starvation. That is when he came up with the solution of being a hair dresser, he could snack all day on his clients, be full at the end of it, give pleasure and do no harm. Actually those early days together demonstrate how little Harry understood White Court Vamps, if I remember correctly he had hope that Thomas could get along without feeding.
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Imagine a spell so large it requires 5 wizards to anchor it each with affinities to each of the objects. As a weapon Harry would have the Athame, Carlos the Grail, Listens to Wind the Shroud, leaving the Crown of Thorns and Placard to others. If I am right and the Crown is Thorn manacles for a god, and the Placard a communicator (both to the person afflicted and the world), you would need Wizards with affinities in those areas, GateKeeper and the Merlin perhaps? This could kill the older participants.
If that's the way it's going, I think it would be cool if all the wizards were "young." Elaine could work for the Shroud or Placard because we've seen her use memory as a weapon, so she's probably apt at the mental communication magic, and we've seen her use healing magic.
No, she had sex with another person, that ended her protection, then her and Thomas could touch each other and have sex without him getting burned.
When they had sex again, it is assumed the protection was reacquired. Why do you think it wasn't?
It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine.
Apparently? No, it isn't apparent.
If she still had true love's protection, it couldn't do that, it would burn it.
How do you know? This is just a bald assertion. Others have given reasons why this could not be the case. To counter that, you need to give reasons; not bald assertions.
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How do you know? This is just a bald assertion. Others have given reasons why this could not be the case. To counter that, you need to give reasons; not bald assertions.
True love is so powerful that even touching the wedding ring of someone or a rose given to someone with true love protection will burn.. Justine had sex with that girl, thus canceling her protection, that is clearly stated through out the books and that was her motive in bringing the girl home to introduce her to Thomas, they had sex, then she and Thomas could touch each other without him getting burned and thus have sex. Thomas himself said that the embryo's Hunger will feed off of Justine, that is on page three of Peace Talks. Justine isn't protected any more, that isn't a bald assertion, those are the rules that Jim has set down.. Have sex with another, you lose your true love protection from the Hunger demon feeding on you. If the embryo has the seed of the Hunger inside it, there is nothing to stop it from feeding on Justine.
When they had sex again, it is assumed the protection was reacquired. Why do you think it wasn't?
When Thomas fed off of Justine the first few times, she was just food, then he fell in love with her and he could no longer touch her. Remember she used to wear a special rubber suit so he could put his arms around her? Then in Ghost Story she had sex with another, that ended her protection.. Since Thomas was still have sex with her, she got pregnant after all, she has no protection it wasn't acquired.
It doesn't apparently, because the Hunger in the embryo is feeding off of Justine.
Apparently? No, it isn't apparent.
To Thomas it is, on page three of Peace Talks, he says clearly no if ands or buts, that the baby's hunger was going to feed off of Justine until it was born. And that this weakens the mother to the point where less than fifty percent survive giving birth.
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True love is so powerful that even touching the wedding ring of someone or a rose given to someone with true love protection will burn.. Justine had sex with that girl, thus canceling her protection, that is clearly stated through out the books and that was her motive in bringing the girl home to introduce her to Thomas, they had sex, then she and Thomas could touch each other without him getting burned and thus have sex. Thomas himself said that the embryo's Hunger will feed off of Justine, that is on page three of Peace Talks. Justine isn't protected any more, that isn't a bald assertion, those are the rules that Jim has set down.. Have sex with another, you lose your true love protection from the Hunger demon feeding on you. If the embryo has the seed of the Hunger inside it, there is nothing to stop it from feeding on Justine.
The others reasoning is that the embryo demon is different. Nothing you say addresses that.
When Thomas fed off of Justine the first few times, she was just food, then he fell in love with her and he could no longer touch her. Remember she used to wear a special rubber suit so he could put his arms around her? Then in Ghost Story she had sex with another, that ended her protection.. Since Thomas was still have sex with her, she got pregnant after all, she has no protection it wasn't acquired.
Why does Justine keep bringing girls to Thomas for them to have sex with? Why did she say "rinse and repeat?" Why does the trailer show them not having direct physical contact. You're ignoring the point everyone's bringing up.
To Thomas it is, on page three of Peace Talks, he says clearly no if ands or buts, that the baby's hunger was going to feed off of Justine until it was born. And that this weakens the mother to the point where less than fifty percent survive giving birth.
You say that Justine doesn't have true love protection, the baby can feed off of Justine, therefore Justine doesn't have true love protection. Both of your premises are assumptions and you're conclusion is one of your premises.
Thomas says the demon feeds off the mother. How many wamps have been carried by one with true love protection? I highly doubt that number is equal to or greater than 1. Thomas may not have even thought about it. Further, as others have pointed out, as the demon baby isn't using lust to feed, true love protection might be meaningless to it.
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You say that Justine doesn't have true love protection, the baby can feed off of Justine, therefore Justine doesn't have true love protection. Both of your premises are assumptions and you're conclusion is one of your premises.
Page 2 Peace Talks
"The usual, mostly. Except that the baby's Hunger will draw life energy from Justine. She's going to be fed upon continuously for the next seven and a half months."
True love's protection burns the Hunger demon, Thomas says it will be feeding continuously on Justine for the next seven and a half months.. Ergo Justine no longer has any true love protection, she gave that up back in Ghost Story. Not my assumption, it is the assumption of Thomas, he should know.. It is how it has worked from the beginning of the series, true love protects one from being fed upon by the Hunger demon, sex with someone other than one's true love cancels it.
Why does Justine keep bringing girls to Thomas for them to have sex with? Why did she say "rinse and repeat?" Why does the trailer show them not having direct physical contact. You're ignoring the point everyone's bringing up.
Maybe she is bi-sexual ? In the few paragraphs devoted to her, while Harry does talk about her "glow" or aura from being pregnant, nothing is said about "rinse and repeat.." As far as the trailer goes you've gone to the movies enough to know that sometimes they are not totally actuate. Also that is one scene, also in Peace Talks anyway, there is no scene with Justine and Thomas together to be touching or not touching. Thomas is already beaten up in svartelve custody, when Harry goes to see her at their place. Maybe Thomas has taken a lover because since Justine is already being constantly being fed upon by the baby Hunger he doesn't want to kill her?
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True love's protection burns the Hunger demon
Not necessarily. It wouldn't burn a Malvora. And the Hunger demon *itself* isn't different, since Madrigal Raith could switch to feeding on fear like a Malvora.
So True Love might not be a protection in this instance. You might need True Love, Courage, *and* Hope.
... or even that might not help since this isn't emotion-based. Thomas' Hunger Demon doesn't need emotions to feed on his own life energy. Maybe no protection will work against feeding "from within".
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... or even that might not help since this isn't emotion-based. Thomas' Hunger Demon doesn't need emotions to feed on his own life energy. Maybe no protection will work against feeding "from within".
I think that's the key here. Just as Thomas' demon feeds on his own energy when there's no other food available, the baby's demon, connected to Justine through the womb, feeds on her, because that's what's available to it. And since Thomas' True Love doesn't protect him from his own internal Hunger, Justine's Love can't protect her from her baby's Hunger. They're going to need another solution.
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Not necessarily. It wouldn't burn a Malvora. And the Hunger demon *itself* isn't different, since Madrigal Raith could switch to feeding on fear like a Malvora.
Maybe because Malvora fed off a totally different emotion that Lara and Thomas feed off of. Where true love burned their Hunger, maybe extreme courage would burn Malvora's Demon.
I think that's the key here. Just as Thomas' demon feeds on his own energy when there's no other food available, the baby's demon, connected to Justine through the womb, feeds on her, because that's what's available to it. And since Thomas' True Love doesn't protect him from his own internal Hunger, Justine's Love can't protect her from her baby's Hunger. They're going to need another solution.
Exactly.
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Wait...
Do we know that True Love only burns lust-feeding Whampires, or is that just a common fan theory?
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Wait...
Do we know that True Love only burns lust-feeding Whampires, or is that just a common fan theory?
There is woj about it as far as I remember.
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Wait...
Do we know that True Love only burns lust-feeding Whampires, or is that just a common fan theory?
I think it is more than a theory, didn't Malvora attack Harry pretty successfully in White Night? Can't remember if it was White Night, anyway in White Night Lara attempted to give Harry a big smacker on the lips and burnt the heck out of her own, that is when she said he must be still protected by his true love for Susan. She then felt sorry for him because that meant he hadn't been with anyone since Susan left. So if both happened in the same book, it is more than a theory.
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If courage burnt a Malvora then the touch of a true hero, someone who had put himself at mortal risk for another would burn them. Harry 101. Objects such as medals would burn
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If courage burnt a Malvora then the touch of a true hero, someone who had put himself at mortal risk for another would burn them. Harry 101. Objects such as medals would burn
Yeah, I imagine the Medal of Honor would burn her to a crisp.
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Wait...
Do we know that True Love only burns lust-feeding Whampires, or is that just a common fan theory?
Yes we do:
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/
2009 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#62 “You’ve said that True Love (real True Love) only protects against WCVamps feeding on lust. What protects against the other WCVamps?”
It isn’t real complicated that way. The vamps who feed on fear get bad effects from real courage. Those who feed on despair choke on hope. :)
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Huh.
Now, I wonder -- how much leeway does Thomas have to change the emotion he uses to feed? I'm sure it's not *easy*, but we've seen Madrigal Raith feed on fear, even though he's a Raith. Does it have to be a *negative* emotion, or does it just have to be a strong emotion and focused on him (an emotional connection)?
If a White Court Vampire became a motivational speaker, or a revival preacher, or a rock star could he feed non-fatally off the energy of the crowd?
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Now, I wonder -- how much leeway does Thomas have to change the emotion he uses to feed? I'm sure it's not *easy*, but we've seen Madrigal Raith feed on fear, even though he's a Raith. Does it have to be a *negative* emotion, or does it just have to be a strong emotion and focused on him (an emotional connection)?
He doesn't have to do much. Remember when he was a hair dresser? He'd turn on his vamp charm while he washed their hair, sending vibs that gave the women sexual pleasure. They didn't go all orgasmic or anything, but gave off just thrills and chills so he could nibble, it was all under control.
When he wants a big meal or is really hurt and needs healing, then the Hunger goes all out with the pleasure signals, the victim might die, but he or she dies with a big smile on his or her face.
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Now, I wonder -- how much leeway does Thomas have to change the emotion he uses to feed?
Apparently pretty much anything could work, and the 3-fold division is largely political/cultural.
Same WOJ page:
2011 Atlanta Signing
The three families of the White Court feed on different emotions, is that like knife, spoon, fork, or can they mix it up?
They can mix it up, and it’s one of the things they fight about a lot, about what they do. There’s all this “you are what you eat” sort of thing in play, and the different houses have different aspects [unintelligible] divide things up by territory. And you could feed on all sorts of stuff. You could probably be a White Court vampire that fed on the warm happy feeling that people get when they’re holding a puppy. Although you’d be a really….you’d probably sparkle if you did that. [Unintelligible] it might actually be fun to show that in some future files.
But the thing is, they still feed on life energy regardless of what emotion they use. So feeding on something else wouldn't inherently make it safer for the people he fed on.
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But the thing is, they still feed on life energy regardless of what emotion they use. So feeding on something else wouldn't inherently make it safer for the people he fed on.
It is a matter of control. When Thomas first began to feed off of Justine he drained only enough energy so that her mental state reached equalibium and her sanity returned. When he was dying back in Blood Rites, she was willing to die, but though he could have used more energy, stopped because he loved her and didn't want to kill her, but she was physically changed by it, her hair turned white among other things. When he was dressing hair, Thomas took so little from each lady that at most she might have felt a little fatigue after he was done with her.
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It is a matter of control.
Oh, I agree. But (as you point out with the hairdressing) Thomas can feed without much impact "as is". So while Thomas *could* change to a different emotion, I'm not sure there would be any point.
Now, arguably, if he changed to something else he wouldn't accidentally feed on Justine via touch, but I don't know if that would work... I don't think he'd lose the ability to feed on lust, and Thomas says his Hunger is specifically attracted to Justine (he can touch other people with True Love protection without being burned, after all...)
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Oh, I agree. But (as you point out with the hairdressing) Thomas can feed without much impact "as is". So while Thomas *could* change to a different emotion, I'm not sure there would be any point.
The point would be that he could touch the woman he loves. Their True Love wouldn't burn him, apparently, if he turned his Hunger to feeding on something other than lust.
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The point would be that he could touch the woman he loves. Their True Love wouldn't burn him, apparently, if he turned his Hunger to feeding on something other than lust.
It is a debate that has been on these boards for years, and frankly never made much sense to me.
That is, sex with another however casual or even supposedly rape cancels the true love protection. Thomas and Justine are just as much in love as they ever were, but because she had sex with that woman and Thomas feeds on another[sex] the protection is kaput.. Which up until she found herself pregnant and the embryo Hunger inside her embryo child began to feed off of her Justine was perfectly fine with, as was Thomas. Which is all ironic in the first place, because both were unfaithful so they could physically express the true love they have for one another without Thomas becoming a french fry..
Now, arguably, if he changed to something else he wouldn't accidentally feed on Justine via touch, but I don't know if that would work... I don't think he'd lose the ability to feed on lust, and Thomas says his Hunger is specifically attracted to Justine (he can touch other people with True Love protection without being burned, after all...)
No, he cannot as I understand it. He cannot touch anyone with True Love protection. However real True Love is rare I think. It must have been awkward in the beauty parlor if one of his clients was protected by True Love, then a pair of gloves was in order and the lady benefited from his hair dressing skills.
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No, he cannot as I understand it. He cannot touch anyone with True Love protection.
He absolutely can... Harry had True Love protection in BR, DB, PG, and WN. Thomas could touch Harry just fine without burning.
In general, True Love only burns a Raith if they try to Feed on a protected person or if they touch a symbol/token of True Love.
It's made very clear in TC. Madeline is totally consumed by her Hunger so she's always burned. Thomas is specifically always burned by Justine because his Hunger is drawn to her; he subconsciously/automatically tries to feed whenever they touch.
At the end of WN (when Lara uses her emotion-powers to boost Harry's shield-spell) she only gets burned once she loses control a bit and starts feeding.
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He absolutely can... Harry had True Love protection in BR, DB, PG, and WN. Thomas could touch Harry just fine without burning.
However he wasn't trying to feed was he? However Thomas could not touch Justine, and at the time he wasn't trying feed on her, but that kind of contradicts Blood Rites when Thomas was hurt so bad and Raith threw her in to feed him and he did, almost until death.
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If I recall correctly, that feeding was when Thomas and Justine's relationship made the jump to True Love.
It was Justine being willing to die to save him, and Thomas being willing to die rather than kill her.
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If I recall correctly, that feeding was when Thomas and Justine's relationship made the jump to True Love.
It was Justine being willing to die to save him, and Thomas being willing to die rather than kill her.
After that is when she took to wearing a rubber jump suit so he could touch her.
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However he wasn't trying to feed was he? However Thomas could not touch Justine, and at the time he wasn't trying feed on her,
Thomas' Hunger was trying to feed on Justine whenever they touched, even if Thomas (the human mind) didn't intend to.
This issue is specific to Thomas and Justine, he could touch other people with True Love protection, like Harry, since he wasn't trying to feed.
Similarly Lara only gets burned by Harry in WN once she loses control a bit and starts trying to feed.
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Thomas' Hunger was trying to feed on Justine whenever they touched, even if Thomas (the human mind) didn't intend to.
This issue is specific to Thomas and Justine, he could touch other people with True Love protection, like Harry, since he wasn't trying to feed.
Similarly Lara only gets burned by Harry in WN once she loses control a bit and starts trying to feed.
Only none of that follows with a wedding ring or even a rose given in true love can burn a White Court vamp. Face it, you might be able to eat a rose, but you cannot feed upon a wedding ring.
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After that is when she took to wearing a rubber jump suit so he could touch her.
I know they were taking precautions against conception, but that was going too far.
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Only none of that follows with a wedding ring or even a rose given in true love can burn a White Court vamp. Face it, you might be able to eat a rose, but you cannot feed upon a wedding ring.
I think tokens of True Love are a different principle.
It's somewhat messy, but that seems to be the only way to reconcile Thomas being able to touch Harry (and anyway we're specifically told that's how it works).
I think it's kind of like how repelling a vampire with faith works differently from holy water. Harry can't repel vampires with a cross, but he can with his pentacle; it's about his personal belief. But holy water from Father Forthill can burn vampires and ghouls even when used by Harry, though he doesn't subscribe to any religion.
The holy water is inherently imbued with holiness/faith "energy"/divine power in a way that other things aren't; similarly, tokens of True Love presumably are inherently imbued with love in a less ephemeral way than people's (very changeable) auras.