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Messages - john4200

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16
No, I was talking about the decision to suicide, not the decision to become the Winter Knight. If Harry, in a normal frame of mind, would have thought killing himself was a good way to escape from Mab, then Mab should have read that in his mind. Also, if Harry would think about suicide in a normal frame of mind, then why did he NOT try to arrange his death (after he forgot about arranging it) again?

I think it is clear that a right-minded Harry would not contemplate suicide to escape Mab. Or if he were to do it, he would do it a lot smarter. Like tell Kincaid,

"Don't mention this to Murphy or Ivy (or me), but if sometime in the indefinite future, in the judgment of Murphy or Ivy, I have become irredeemably evil as the Winter Knight, then I want to call in the favor you owe me. If that happens, I want you to kill me. I am going to have the memory of this conversation erased, so I will not know it is coming."

Of course, if Harry later tried to call in the favor from Kincaid for something else, that would be a funny conversation.


17
i think he thought it was the most pragmatic and most practical way to make sure that he wouldn't belong to mab completely. or it was his way of cheating mab out of her new winter knight.

Except that Harry could not have been in his right mind when he decided that. Since no mention was made of Molly changing anything except Harry's memory of the conversation with Molly and the call to Kincaid, I assume Molly did not try any deeper tampering. Therefore, when Harry told Mab that he would not commit suicide, he really believed that he would not, or Mab would have known. And Harry would have been operating normally when telling that to Mab, only missing the memory about committing suicide. So, if Harry in his right mind would contemplate killing himself to escape being the Winter Knight, Mab would have seen it in his mind.

Hmmm, I am not sure if I am explaining this well. My point is basically that Molly apparently did very little to Harry's mind -- she only erased a memory. So when Harry told Mab he wanted to be the Winter Knight, Harry was basically operating in his normal mental capacity. And Mab seemed to believe Harry that he would not commit suicide. So, that means that Harry ordinarily would not even contemplate suicide to escape from Mab.

The whole situation is rather odd. Unless Molly did a lot more to Harry's mind than just erasing a few minutes of memories.


18
What she does to him when she finds out he's alive - well, that may be an entirely different story for Jim to share with us.

It would be funny if Murphy tries to beat him up again and finds that it is not so easy now that Harry has the strength of the Winter Knight.

19
Some of us have been saying for years now that she just had to willingly make love to someone else and then Thomas could touch her.

Not the best choice of words. Justine needs to have sex with someone else. Making love, not so much, since that might put the protection on her again.

20
I think that whatever Demonreach encompasses (sic), the intellectus ascribed to it would seem to be indicative that it has taken the entire island to be its domain. I think that this is further backed up by Demonreach referring to itself as "here" when "providing nourishment" through root-shaped IV's and then referring to a completely different parasite maintaining blood flow.

Why do you write "sic" after your own word choice?

Anyway, I already responded to that issue. Most trees do not contain everything a human body needs for nourishment. But the island probably does. So, "here" (the island) provides nourishment and the parasite (the tree) circulates the blood. This is consistent with all the facts, and it is the simplest explanation since no other parasite is needed to keep the body alive, and nothing else that could be referred to as a parasite is mentioned in that passage. Postulating anything else is unnecessarily complicating things.



21
I think Demonreach would hardly perceive a tree as a parasite: a parasite lives off its host without giving it anything in return. The tree takes energy from sunlight, turns it into sugars, "fixes" nitrogen in the soil, etc. What's more its dead body then nourishes the soil. The tree is much more akin to an organ of Demonreach's than a parasite of it.

That all assumes that Demonreach cares about fixing nitrogen in the soil or nourishing the soil. I don't know why it would care about that. Is it an environmentalist demon? A farmer demon? I don't think so.


22
the question is whether whatever mental illness she was suffering through in Grave Peril that was ameliorated by Thomas's feeding was permanently "cured" when she almost died.

Why is that "the question"?

23
Justine was really physically and mentally hurt by Thomas' last feeding. It may have taken this long for her to recover fully, and be concerned about Thomas. He was taking care of himself pretty well for a while, until the Skinwalker, and I'm sure it took time for him to recover from that also.

No, Justine was recovered enough by Turn Coat, if not earlier. I'm thinking of the time they met in the nightclub, in particular. And by the beginning of Changes, Thomas was certainly recovered enough from the skinwalker. And there were probably other opportunities. I think Jim just did not think of it until recently.


24
You got me the on the whole Justine thing tho.... I think Jim cheated on that one just to give Thomas a booty call.

No, Jim did not cheat. It was all set up several books ago. I do suspect Jim just thought of the consequences, though. I have been wondering why Thomas and Justine did not do something like this ever since White Knight, when Lara was surprised that Harry had not had sex with anyone since Susan, so he was still protected.

25
Except that parasites tend to not help the host or respond to its demands. When Harry reached through his connection with Demonreach, the trees obeyed his wish to dump...what was hiding in them?...in Turn Coat.

That seems an unimportant distinction. What do you think Demonreach should call the tree, if not parasite? My woody thrall?  ;D

26
But that distinction is hardly relevant to the discussion of the parasite. Whatever Demonreach may encompass, the tree living on the island certainly would seem to be a parasite to Demonreach.

Also, a typical tree does not contain everything a human body needs for nourishment. So it would make sense for the nourishment to come from "here" (Demonreach, somewhere in its domain) and only be channeled through the tree into Harry's body. So "here" could provide nourishment (channeled through the tree), the tree (parasite) could circulate the blood, and Mab could provide breath.

27
It seems that the majority think that the parasite is Lash. I certainly hope that is just wishful thinking and the majority is wrong, because that is really lame. I hope that Butcher would not write something so contrived.

Dresden was shot in the chest near his heart by someone who does not miss. So there was some major heart damage. If the blood circulation was maintained by a beating heart, then Mab must have healed his heart almost instantly. And Mab was apparently providing "breath". If she can do all that, then causing the heart to beat is trivial. On top of that, the freaking tree can somehow magically grow conduits into Harry's blood vessels. If the tree can magically do that, it should be easy for it to also circulate the blood. Either way, there is no need to involve Lash to circulate the blood. If Butcher does write Lash into there for no good reason, then it is just lame. I hope he does not.

28
If any old fallen angel could just walk up to any old human being and whisper lies in their ears, with the only possible drawback being the return whisper of an opposing angel? Well. I don't think the human race would have lasted this long.

Who says any old fallen angel can do it? And even if they could, why would they want to? And even if they want to, why would the fallen angels be so much better at whispering than the angels who get to counter?

29
There's only one such being who has been in the position to know Harry in particular that well. Lasciel's Shadow.

I think you are making a big assumption there -- you are assuming that the entity must "know" Harry and that such a process requires past association. But an angel-level entity may be capable of reading Harry's entire mind instantly, so it could "know" Harry even if that was the first time that it had encountered him.

30
I mean, any dark magic wizard could break the Fourth Law of Magic and enthrall someone. A practitioner of enough power could even do it to Harry.

Are you saying that Mab doesn't have that power?

Mab could probably do that. She could make Harry into a mindless thrall. But then, it is not Harry doing something, it is Mab controlling him completely. As McCoy said in Changes, Mab can make Harry do things, but she cannot make Harry choose to do anything. It is a fine distinction, but important. If Mab makes Harry a mindless thrall, then it is no different than if Mab did all the things herself -- Harry's body would just be an extension of Mab's own. But if Mab managed to get Harry to do something of his own free will, that is really shaping him, making him into into someone willing to do evil. But Mab cannot do that unless Harry chooses to allow it. So, at the deepest level, it is NOT within Mab's power to shape Harry.



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