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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on May 15, 2021, 07:41:31 PM
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Alright so apparently Carlos being a water mage is a good counter to Dresden's style of magic. So what kind of magic would be good against someone like Carlos? Earth magic? I am thinking if he tries to kill Harry, it will be Molly using mind magic to stop him. So that might be a good counter.
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Lol who said they'll fight?
Harry can shield better. And is stronger in almost every way.... Carlos has skill enough...but it wouldn't even be a fight.
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If it comes to that, Harry would probably be treating it more or less like the fight with Fix, trying to pull his punches enough to disable without killing. So he probably wouldn't even be trying fire, but Carlos' water shield would block that anyway.
Carlos has seen enough of Harry's use of forzare and air bursts to plan for countering those as well. Infriga is probably also more lethal than Harry would reach for to subdue a well-meaning but dangerously misguided good guy, but Carlos would presumably bring a plan for countering ice magic to any fight with the winter knight anyway. I'd assume even slipping something around the edge of his shield like icing the ground under his feet would be a challenge.
Harry would pretty much need something unusual enough that Carlos wouldn't have seen him using it before to plan a counter, as well as not easily countered by water. I wonder if he could pull off the gravity-concentrating spell fast enough to be useful in a fight, if he was only trying to focus it enough for a trip rather than to the point of turning anything organic in the AoE into chunky salsa.
He might be able to do something non-lethal with the strangler tendrils he learned off Namshiel using on him and tried on Shagnasty. He can boost that with soulfire (see: Shagnasty fight), and while I doubt he can get up to Namshiel's five wavelengths that are impossible to shield against, he might have progressed enough from TC to manage two or three.
The sleep spell the Gatekeeper used in TC is apparently not invasive enough to be black magic. If Harry can learn that, it's pretty much ideal for stopping an attacker without harm. Probably also a good idea to brush up on to subdue Justine long enough to set up an exorcism.
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Personally if I was Harry I would act like the bad guy that you think I am and hold a hostage that Carlos would hold up on then Harry can disable Carlos let go the hostage and call it a day
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Depending on the nature of the fight, it could go a few ways.
I think Snark Knight you have described the situation where Carlos is sent to tell Harry off and it devolves into a duel. Depending on if Harry was being rational or not would be the decisive point. Harry as a raging beast is terrifying, sure. But he tends to win more fights when he is being cold and rational. Which I think is intentional on Jim's part. In terms of mechanics I think you are right pretty much, I think Harry could counter with things Carlos might be underprepared for. Like black magic - i.e. mind assaults. He might even be desperate enough. He could also attempt to just out-muscle Carlos in some way, because Carlos is weaker. And Harry is far more formidable in close-quarters due to his Winter Knight power.
Jim has sort of been a bit evasive on how water magic works, he often says it's a fairly passive or reactive form of magic. But then he shows Carlos wiping the floor with his entropy stuff. If Harry had learned some water magic from River Shoulders, he might be able to counter Ramirez more effectively. Just as fire can be extinguished by water, enough heat can vaporize it. They are each others counter in a sense. I think ice magic might be his best bet, as Carlos uses entropy a lot (disorder) so Harry might want to use energy (order). I know it seems counter but he might just be able to lock Ramirez down with it. Carlos also has horrible physical injuries that Harry could exploit. And if Harry had learned some shapeshifting from River Shoulders (maybe with some tips from Grey), he also might be able to use that to his advantage.
There are scenarios where it isn't just the two of them of course. Ramirez might have a team of Wardens, maybe including Luccio. Maybe even including Senior Council members. That alters things dramatically, tactically speaking. Harry might be alone, or in his Castle, or have Bob, or Mouse, or the Alphas, or Ebenezar (with or against), or some Winter Fae, or White Court Vampires, or Molly etc. Any combination of these would be interesting and require vastly different tactics. If the might of the whole White Council and their allies came down on Harry (like they did with Kemmler), unless Harry was fairly upgraded and had all his new allies (some of which are also supposedly White Council allies) Harry would get smashed. Jim has stated that a few times. Which isn't to say that there isn't a scenario where Harry wins either, but I suspect the Council would already be fragmenting and Harry would shatter them at their worst moment. I think this is what the Gatekeeper was referring to when he hinted at "Harry's hour".
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A consistent theme in the Dresdenverse is that when given enough time to plan, Harry is pretty damn hard to beat in a fight.
The mistake that the Carlos and the WC made is that it painted Harry into a corner and allowed him to *know* that he was painted in a corner. Once Harry has time to heal and set up his new smart home, believe that Harry is starting to plan his contingencies against the Wardens, Carlos in particular.
Also, everyone keeps underestimating Harry's intellect. He encourages that by making a show of how physically strong and intimidating he is. Hell, even Ebenezer was undone by his assumptions on Harry and that was just a few hours of planning (and a favor from the Winter Lady). Nemesis said it best: Harry doesn't look smart, so it's easy to underestimate him.
Besides, Harry is going to get some training from River Shoulders. Methinks he may have some insights... ;)
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Harry might be alone, or in his Castle, or have Bob, or Mouse, or the Alphas, or Ebenezar (with or against), or some Winter Fae, or White Court Vampires, or Molly etc. ".
Good grief, I didn't even think about Bob or Bonnie. If Harry figures out how to utilize Bob and Bonnie even half as well as Waldo, then the WC is greatly underestimating Harry and that is always a good thing for Harry.
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Lara 😉 such a filling meal..
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Good grief, I didn't even think about Bob or Bonnie. If Harry figures out how to utilize Bob and Bonnie even half as well as Waldo, then the WC is greatly underestimating Harry and that is always a good thing for Harry.
If Harry had figured out how to do anything as good as Butters he'd be on the Senior Council already.
Butter's is allowed to do awesome things because he's Jim's favourite side character. Harry isn't because Harry is much easier to write around when he's an idiot.
Hence why he forgot potions existed between Fool Moon and Changes, for example.
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Bob isn't a weapon and since whoever possesses him controls him, he isn't safe in the open.
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Bob isn't a weapon and since whoever possesses him controls him, he isn't safe in the open.
Harry did use Bob in Changes to protect Murphy.
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Bob isn't a weapon and since whoever possesses him controls him, he isn't safe in the open.
Whoever possesses his skull/container specifically. And I'd argue he was highly effective in protecting Butters in Skin Game. In fact, he was instrumental in both Changes and Battle Ground against the most dangerous enemies.
If Harry had figured out how to do anything as good as Butters he'd be on the Senior Council already.
Butter's is allowed to do awesome things because he's Jim's favourite side character. Harry isn't because Harry is much easier to write around when he's an idiot.
Hence why he forgot potions existed between Fool Moon and Changes, for example.
This. Although I wouldn't necessarily say Butters is Jim's favourite character. I think Mab probably is.
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Whoever possesses his skull/container specifically. And I'd argue he was highly effective in protecting Butters in Skin Game. In fact, he was instrumental in both Changes and Battle Ground against the most dangerous enemies.
Nicodemus is aware of him now because of Butters antics in Skin Game. As is Tessa.
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Nicodemus is aware of him now because of Butters antics in Skin Game. As is Tessa.
Indeed, although I wouldn't be surprised if Nicodemus knew about Bob earlier. He was Kemmler's personal assistant. Not to mention Anduriel's power to listen and see through shadows...if they ever bothered to look at Harry or Kemmler it's possible they saw Bob already.
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Being aware of Bob does not mean connecting all the dots. If Nicreally understood what Bob was we would have had an attempt to steal him. But a spirit supporting butters? That can be anything.
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Being aware of Bob does not mean connecting all the dots. If Nicreally understood what Bob was we would have had an attempt to steal him. But a spirit supporting butters? That can be anything.
Why? Nicodemus already has a far more potent and knowledgeable spirit. What could he possibly need Bob for that Anduriel couldn't do?
I don't think Nic has designs on godhood either. Doesn't seem to need it. And as Mab points out, it comes with restrictions.
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Not everybody Nic comes in contact with has an Anduriel. They might settle for a Ford, or Bob as it were.
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Not everybody Nic comes in contact with has an Anduriel. They might settle for a Ford, or Bob as it were.
I don't quite follow. Are you saying he might give Bob to one of his allies? I can't see him giving it to a Denarian. He wouldn't want them getting any stronger, but also any of the Fallen are probably by and large far more knowledgeable than Bob.
He might gift Bob to Mab or Cowl...assuming that's possible, and assuming he knows they would want him.
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He keeps Bob for himself. There are so many things he can do with such a resource. Just like Lasciel wants to have Bonea:
“Meaning that since a whisper in your ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child. She’s far too valuable a resource to be allowed to die with you.”
Bob is more powerful.
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Lol who said they'll fight?
Harry can shield better. And is stronger in almost every way.... Carlos has skill enough...but it wouldn't even be a fight.
I didn't say they would fight, but I do think it's going that direction.
I know you hate it but I'm going by words of jim. He said that Carlos's style is the kind to defeat Harry. He said that Harry vs Carlos would be like the Olympic fencer vs the Olympic weight lifter.
I think Harry would ultimately win, and should win, but Jim doesn't want him to be Silver age Superman who's unbeatable. Jim also said he used D&D style talents for his characters. So Harry has certain buffs, and weaknesses just like everyone else. Carlos just happens to match up well against Harry because of his particular style of magic.
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Bob is more powerful.
I wouldn't go that far... He may be right now simply because he's more aware, however she has access to more knowledge than he does, and probably more power along with it.
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I wouldn't go that far... He may be right now simply because he's more aware, however she has access to more knowledge than he does, and probably more power along with it.
Bonea does not have all the knowledge the fallen angel had and Bob is a spiritual heavyweight.
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Bonea does not have all the knowledge the fallen angel had and Bob is a spiritual heavyweight.
what makes you think that? She has the knowledge. But it's a read only program she had to manually connect to her user interface. And... Memories are power. It's Bob's knowledge and memory that makes him a spiritual powerhouse. Bonnie has more knowledge, ergo more power. She doesn't understand how to use it to it's potential perhaps, but it's there.
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what makes you think that? She has the knowledge. But it's a read only program she had to manually connect to her user interface. And... Memories are power. It's Bob's knowledge and memory that makes him a spiritual powerhouse. Bonnie has more knowledge, ergo more power. She doesn't understand how to use it to it's potential perhaps, but it's there.
Because Lash did not have them. She originated from a small part of the whole.
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Because Lash did not have them. She originated from a small part of the whole.
that is completely erroneous. She was a perfect carbon copy of Lasciel, an imprint when she arrived. That's part of why it was such a big deal Harry more or less redeemed her. Nothing in her story implies she's anything less than this. Indeed Dresden had to point out to her she wasn't the real Lasciel, as the real one was immutable. Kinda hard to consider yourself the original with big gapping holes in your millennia of memories.
Also why even without the coin she could offer knowledge, knew what starborn was, ect. She just didn't give him more because she was angling him into needing the coin most of her existence.
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that is completely erroneous. She was a perfect carbon copy of Lasciel, an imprint when she arrived. That's part of why it was such a big deal Harry more or less redeemed her. Nothing in her story implies she's anything less than this. Indeed Dresden had to point out to her she wasn't the real Lasciel, as the real one was immutable. Kinda hard to consider yourself the original with big gapping holes in your millennia of memories.
Also why even without the coin she could offer knowledge, knew what starborn was, ect. She just didn't give him more because she was angling him into needing the coin most of her existence.
Actually it is not just logical, it is what Harry said in the books. It is what the whole plot is based on. Lash is not Lasciel. It is part of Lasciel that was placed in Harry.
She was the link to the real Lasciel and she would return to the real Lasciel if Harry took the coin. At the end she renounced Lasciel and became something new but that new being was not equal to Lasciel.
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Actually it is not just logical, it is what Harry said in the books. It is what the whole plot is based on. Lash is not Lasciel. It is part of Lasciel that was placed in Harry.
you are heavily misinterpreting what he said. Go reread that. She's made up of a piece of her energy imprinted on him, a copy.
She was the link to the real Lasciel and she would return to the real Lasciel if Harry took the coin. At the end she renounced Lasciel and became something new but that new being was not equal to Lasciel.
indeed, she was never equal to Lasciel, and that fact is completely non germaine to the point. She was her shadow, her replica, her copy. Nothing has ever been said or implied her memories or personality in the beginning was anything different than the original. That is by and large the point. THAT'S what the whole plot is based on. Lasciels immutable, but her copy was made of and sustained by a mortal who CAN change. Hence Lasciel still considering Bonnie her daughter.
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He keeps Bob for himself. There are so many things he can do with such a resource. Just like Lasciel wants to have Bonea:
Bob is more powerful.
As I said before, what information does Bob have or power does Bob have that Anduriel couldn't provide? Anduriel has so much more that he is a whole different weight class by several orders of magnitude, even limited as he is, let alone unbound. Bob's most useful knowledge might be specific things he has learned about his various masters, and perhaps certain inherited knowledge from his creators (parents). Depending on who you believe those are, that's fairly significant. But it hardly seems likely Bob is the only spirit of intellect, not to mention he isn't even the top of the chain. That's probably the Archive in a sense. I am not talking about the mortal vessel (Ivy) but the spiritual mass that she carries. And as strong and intelligent as the Archive is...she did get captured by the Denarians after all.
I am interested to why you believe Bob is more powerful than Bonnie. Certainly he is more skillful at utilising his knowledge and powers, he's had centuries to learn whereas Bonnie is only getting started. But in terms of magical muscle, I'd tend to believe that Bonnie might be stronger. She has the knowledge base that Lash had, which is the knowledge that Lasciel had when she imprinted herself on Harry. It's true, we don't know how much knowledge she had. But she had enough that she seemed to think she was Lasciel, and knew enough secrets of the universe to do all sorts of scary things. Harry REALLY wasted his time with her, he could have learned so much without taking up her power. Instead he took the power and very little of her knowledge. I do acknowledge we haven't seen anything yet from Bonnie that shows her might (although we will I expect). She was expected to be able to go out an kill his loved ones accidentally were she birthed incorrectly. That alone right there says she is very strong. Maggie was protected by an extremely strong threshold and a cadre of angel guards, a former Knight of the Cross (although injured) and his battle-hardened wife, and a Foo Dog scion. Mab was certain Bonnie could get through all of that and kill Maggie, in attempting to connect with her. Bonnie would kill her by accident. Bob couldn't get past the first layer of those defences if he tried.
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As I said before, what information does Bob have or power does Bob have that Anduriel couldn't provide? Anduriel has so much more that he is a whole different weight class by several orders of magnitude, even limited as he is, let alone unbound. Bob's most useful knowledge might be specific things he has learned about his various masters, and perhaps certain inherited knowledge from his creators (parents). Depending on who you believe those are, that's fairly significant. But it hardly seems likely Bob is the only spirit of intellect, not to mention he isn't even the top of the chain. That's probably the Archive in a sense. I am not talking about the mortal vessel (Ivy) but the spiritual mass that she carries. And as strong and intelligent as the Archive is...she did get captured by the Denarians after all.
I am interested to why you believe Bob is more powerful than Bonnie. Certainly he is more skillful at utilising his knowledge and powers, he's had centuries to learn whereas Bonnie is only getting started. But in terms of magical muscle, I'd tend to believe that Bonnie might be stronger. She has the knowledge base that Lash had, which is the knowledge that Lasciel had when she imprinted herself on Harry. It's true, we don't know how much knowledge she had. But she had enough that she seemed to think she was Lasciel, and knew enough secrets of the universe to do all sorts of scary things. Harry REALLY wasted his time with her, he could have learned so much without taking up her power. Instead he took the power and very little of her knowledge. I do acknowledge we haven't seen anything yet from Bonnie that shows her might (although we will I expect). She was expected to be able to go out an kill his loved ones accidentally were she birthed incorrectly. That alone right there says she is very strong. Maggie was protected by an extremely strong threshold and a cadre of angel guards, a former Knight of the Cross (although injured) and his battle-hardened wife, and a Foo Dog scion. Mab was certain Bonnie could get through all of that and kill Maggie, in attempting to connect with her. Bonnie would kill her by accident. Bob couldn't get past the first layer of those defences if he tried.
It'd be hard to balance the book series if a spontaneous addition to it started giving Harry 25-50 years worth of skill growth between each book after all.
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As I said before, what information does Bob have or power does Bob have that Anduriel couldn't provide? Anduriel has so much more that he is a whole different weight class by several orders of magnitude, even limited as he is, let alone unbound. Bob's most useful knowledge might be specific things he has learned about his various masters, and perhaps certain inherited knowledge from his creators (parents). Depending on who you believe those are, that's fairly significant. But it hardly seems likely Bob is the only spirit of intellect, not to mention he isn't even the top of the chain. That's probably the Archive in a sense. I am not talking about the mortal vessel (Ivy) but the spiritual mass that she carries. And as strong and intelligent as the Archive is...she did get captured by the Denarians after all.
I am interested to why you believe Bob is more powerful than Bonnie. Certainly he is more skillful at utilising his knowledge and powers, he's had centuries to learn whereas Bonnie is only getting started. But in terms of magical muscle, I'd tend to believe that Bonnie might be stronger. She has the knowledge base that Lash had, which is the knowledge that Lasciel had when she imprinted herself on Harry. It's true, we don't know how much knowledge she had. But she had enough that she seemed to think she was Lasciel, and knew enough secrets of the universe to do all sorts of scary things. Harry REALLY wasted his time with her, he could have learned so much without taking up her power. Instead he took the power and very little of her knowledge. I do acknowledge we haven't seen anything yet from Bonnie that shows her might (although we will I expect). She was expected to be able to go out an kill his loved ones accidentally were she birthed incorrectly. That alone right there says she is very strong. Maggie was protected by an extremely strong threshold and a cadre of angel guards, a former Knight of the Cross (although injured) and his battle-hardened wife, and a Foo Dog scion. Mab was certain Bonnie could get through all of that and kill Maggie, in attempting to connect with her. Bonnie would kill her by accident. Bob couldn't get past the first layer of those defences if he tried.
Harry describes several times how powerful Bob is as a spiritual being and we have seen him in action. We know how powerful Lasciel is but Lash was only the disconnected shadow of Lasciel. Their child has potential of course but Bob has centuries of spiritual growth.
I would be careful with reading Mab’s words about Bonnie. Sure she can not lie but at the time she was intentionally misleading. And she would not crash through, she would try to get invited by Maggie or something like that and she would have no ill intent, but dangerous because of her lack of wisdom.
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We really don't know much about Lasciel, Lash or Bonea. Bonea comes from a Fallen known as a deceiver. She could be concealing anything. We don't know if the Fallen may have a block in place which binds them from revealing any angelic knowledge. Lasciel and possibly Bonea may have some form of Intellectus. Like Anduriel. The point being that Bonea may not have those limits if they existed. We also know that there is angelic magic and that Lash knew at least some of it. A Wile E author might use something like Bonea as a prototype for something.
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We really don't know much about Lasciel, Lash or Bonea. Bonea comes from a Fallen known as a deceiver. She could be concealing anything. We don't know if the Fallen may have a block in place which binds them from revealing any angelic knowledge. Lasciel and possibly Bonea may have some form of Intellectus. Like Anduriel. The point being that Bonea may not have those limits if they existed. We also know that there is angelic magic and that Lash knew at least some of it. A Wile E author might use something like Bonea as a prototype for something.
They didn't descend from Lucifer. Those that fell with him were separate angels that joined his rebellion, didn't repent, so they fell with him.
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As I said before, what information does Bob have or power does Bob have that Anduriel couldn't provide? Anduriel has so much more that he is a whole different weight class by several orders of magnitude, even limited as he is, let alone unbound.
I don't doubt Bob knows less than the Fallen overall, but he might well know things they don't - he described his own specialties as knowing a lot about magic but very little about faith stuff. It's pretty notable that Lash never tried to use "oh, I already know what the darkhallow is, because awesome fallen knowledge base" as temptation material in DB, when Bob did have that (albeit locked away).
That's probably not of immediate use to Nic or Anduriel. But Marcone/Namshiel could probably find a use for him if Butters and Harry aren't careful enough to keep him away.
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Namshiel would love to have Bob if only for the opportunity to really talk about magic with someone who knows what he is talking about.
Also having Anduriel does not stop Nic from trying to get other tools and tricks especially if he thinks all Kemmlers knowledge is still there.
And maybe Bob could work around some of the restrictions of the fallen.
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Namshiel would love to have Bob if only for the opportunity to really talk about magic with someone who knows what he is talking about.
Also having Anduriel does not stop Nic from trying to get other tools and tricks especially if he thinks all Kemmlers knowledge is still there.
And maybe Bob could work around some of the restrictions of the fallen.
Since Bob isn't one of the Fallen, I think he could work around their restrictions, if there is a work around.
Anduriel is Nic's ear piece to the world, and that is a lot. Few places are closed to him, so with that knowledge, Nic can plan.
Yeah, Namshiel would love to have Bob, because Bob has insights he doesn't have, he knows Harry very well.
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Ooo, does Marcone have Evil Bob?
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I figure Cowl does, you know, to complete the set with his evil Mouse and evil Molly equivalents.
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Alright so apparently Carlos being a water mage is a good counter to Dresden's style of magic. So what kind of magic would be good against someone like Carlos? Earth magic? I am thinking if he tries to kill Harry, it will be Molly using mind magic to stop him. So that might be a good counter.
Tapioca. Carlos' water magic always (especially his shields) seems to break things down to the lowest level component. If Harry creates a Tapioca field, things will just get gummed up. :)
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Tapioca. Carlos' water magic always (especially his shields) seems to break things down to the lowest level component. If Harry creates a Tapioca field, things will just get gummed up. :)
lol. I'm sticking with the Earth magic, or Air magic. Pudding could give him problems though, especially if you follow it up with insect magic.