ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: twobee on June 10, 2018, 09:21:45 PM
-
So Butcher was doing a Q&A and book signing in McLean, VA yesterday, and I was able to get WoJ confirmation for something that I've been thinking about for a while. I asked him if when he was stuck on DR between Cold Days and Skin Game, and trying desperately to contact Molly, if he could have done a summoning ritual to bring her to him. JB confirmed that he could have indeed done that, though he wasn't sure how that would have gone over. I can't see Molly being too pissed about him doing that, especially when he explained why he needed to see her. But how pissed off would Mab have been, given that she was specifically keeping them apart. Or would she have been more impressed at his ingenuity? Some combination of the two? What do you guys think her reaction would have been?
-
I think his answer was more on the order of “yes he could but it would definitely NOT have gone over well.” I assumed he meant with Mab, I don’t know why Molly would have been upset.
Someone also asked him if the mother, queen and lady could give him conflicting orders, to which he replied “mwahaha they Are Now!” In that tone he gets when he got a great idea of how to screw Harry over.
I think that helps answer your question. He (and Molly) CAN try to circumvent her, but it is not ever going to end well for them.
-
YES! That was his best answer of the day! Fans giving the author evil ideas to use!
And yeah, Mab wouldn't get pissed, she'd get even. Just find another way to manipulate him
-
My guess is that Mab kept Molly busy enough that if Harry did try summoning her, Mab could have shown up in her stead a la Dead Beat, thus preventing the meeting. But he'd also be unintentionally summoning Mab to the island, where their last encounter was a threat to take her under. Not to mention the gall of a Knight summoning his Queen.
It would have been bad.
-
I seem to remember a threat from Mab to him if he undermined her authority publicly. I am sure that harry as a Knight of winter would not do that because of what happen to the last knight who under cut her authority.
-
I seem to remember a threat from Mab to him if he undermined her authority publicly. I am sure that harry as a Knight of winter would not do that because of what happen to the last knight who under cut her authority.
Here's the thing, though, Mab never told him until after the fact that she had been blocking him. So she couldn't really say he had undermined her authority, because she never told him not to contact Molly
-
Exactly. If it *had* occurred to Harry to summon Molly (an unlikely scenario to me, given that he wasn't yet thinking of her as a Sidhe) then Mab would have shown up on her behalf, and the awkward dock conversation would have ensued while Harry had Mab in a circle on the island. Which likely wouldn't have gone well.
-
Exactly. If it *had* occurred to Harry to summon Molly (an unlikely scenario to me, given that he wasn't yet thinking of her as a Sidhe) then Mab would have shown up on her behalf, and the awkward dock conversation would have ensued while Harry had Mab in a circle on the island. Which likely wouldn't have gone well.
If Harry ever summons Mab into that circle again I think feces would go shooting toward the spinning device at warp speed. She would be showing up in her battle gear.
-
If Harry ever summons Mab into that circle again I think feces would go shooting toward the spinning device at warp speed. She would be showing up in her battle gear.
Not only that, but she doesn't have to show up alone. She could bring beings with her that would keep Alfred busy while she peeled Harry's skin off using a letter opener. And he wouldn't be able to stop it any more than he could that time in his office when she had him bury it in his own hand.
-
Not only that, but she doesn't have to show up alone. She could bring beings with her that would keep Alfred busy while she peeled Harry's skin off using a letter opener. And he wouldn't be able to stop it any more than he could that time in his office when she had him bury it in his own hand.
Or she simply sends Lea. I always like her dialog.
-
Ok, ok.
A. Harry as WK might have a protocol for calling upon any one of the queens
B. Mab can not show and/or send her own proxy instead, she only has to show if it violates the above precedent actually. Harry had cause to summon Leah remember...
C. Can't imagine her being mad over an honest mistake in summoning her, Mad he was trying to undue her intention, maybe. But since he's not at the time privy to that I can't see why she'd be mad at something he couldn't by her own design know about. Like Being mad a kid playing with matches when he's no idea what fire is or that they make it.... illogical to me.
-
Ok, ok.
A. Harry as WK might have a protocol for calling upon any one of the queens
B. Mab can not show and/or send her own proxy instead
C. Can't imagine her being mad over an honest mistake in summoning her, Mad he was trying to undue her intention, maybe. But since he's not at the time privy to that I can't see why she'd be mad at something he couldn't by her own design know about. Like Being mad a kid playing with matches when he's no idea what fire is or that they make it.... illogical to me.
I think the danger wouldn't be from him unintentionally summoning her. I think the danger is from her trying to play the same game as she did on the dock, only in an enclosed circle with Alfred nearby. Harry was Warden for all of five minutes and he already threatened to drag her downstairs once. If he found out she was playing him while he had power over her... Even if he wouldn't do it, Mab would know it was a possibility, and would have to plan accordingly.
Or she simply sends Lea. I always like her dialog.
Good point. She'd probably send Lea, assuming she can step in for the Lady. We know she's Mab's handmaiden, but can she act for Mab on behalf of Molly? Probably but their rules might be funny.
-
Good point. She'd probably send Lea, assuming she can step in for the Lady. We know she's Mab's handmaiden, but can she act for Mab on behalf of Molly? Probably but their rules might be funny.
On that note, has there been any mention of Molly's handmaiden? Does she have a Jenny Greenteeth yet, or has no one asked?
-
On that note, has there been any mention of Molly's handmaiden? Does she have a Jenny Greenteeth yet, or has no one asked?
Ima bet it's going to incidentally be one of her sisters, Amanda, I think, is prominent enough to fit Just has to be someone who idolizes her, after all.
-
Ima bet it's going to incidentally be one of her sisters, Amanda, I think, is prominent enough to fit Just has to be someone who idolizes her, after all.
But how the hell would Amanda get roped up with the Fae enough to become one of them? We know Molly became one because she was so wrapped up with Lea that she somehow qualified to inherit the position. Is there really a way for that to happen with a position on a lesser scale? Christ, so many better questions than the crap I actually asked.
-
She won't do that to her sister especially because she did not even tell her parents. It is also not practical because a useful handmaiden needs to be a power on her own.
-
She won't do that to her sister especially because she did not even tell her parents. It is also not practical because a useful handmaiden needs to be a power on her own.
Agreed on both counts. She wouldnt want to pull any of her family so far in to the Court that they actually became Fae, and tactically wouldnt make sense in terms of building a power base. So far the closest thing to a Handmaiden is that Harry seems to have tacitly turned Lacuna over to Molly.
-
She won't do that to her sister especially because she did not even tell her parents. It is also not practical because a useful handmaiden needs to be a power on her own.
A. your assuming she's gonna do anything willfully
B. how do you know she doesn't.... Molly proved the fae heritage in her bloodline, Molly, as WL, has been spending time around her family like it's just her family, with her sisters, acting like everything is the same. But the dynamic of what she is is entirely different. And exposure to the fae has consequences. What I describe is perfectly correct, regardless of intention. If Molly suddenly learned to feed on latent adoration or other belief powers latent in the world, can you say her sister would not be a primary boost right at this very moment?
-
A. your assuming she's gonna do anything willfully
B. how do you know she doesn't.... Molly proved the fae heritage in her bloodline, Molly, as WL, has been spending time around her family like it's just her family, with her sisters, acting like everything is the same. But the dynamic of what she is is entirely different. And exposure to the fae has consequences. What I describe is perfectly correct, regardless of intention. If Molly suddenly learned to feed on latent adoration or other belief powers latent in the world, can you say her sister would not be a primary boost right at this very moment?
GodDAMMIT!!! That makes sense. A lot of Sense. Fuck, those poor kids.
Hmmm, any way out of this? Could Michael's "Retirement Package" keep it at bay at least as long as they are Minors living with him? Molly would technically qualify as one of those non-human things they can interfere with, no? Or is it possible that the simple fact that she is spending time with them as family, as opposed to magical training with general Fae mindset and Tactics like lea did, could make the difference. The argument could be made that they would be making her more Human, rather than her having a Fae influence on them. Would depend on how much like her old self she's able to be around them; too much subconscious Faeness might be enough, especially since she's most likely been Invited in since CD.
-
I think it also has to do with the hierarchy and perception of the "proper order of things." A lesser power being should not summon a higher powered one in the same hierarchy. The lesser powered being goes to the higher powered being. It is a demonstration of deference and respect. The situation with Mab on DR was a special case. I do not think Mab would take kindly to a Knight summoning her, the Lady, or the Mother on a regular basis as it undermines their authority. You don't summon a more powerful being without consequences (now or later).
The nature of the summoning must also be taken into consideration. We saw Harry summon Toot Toot with just an offering and a whisper. That is very mild and not likely to cause concern. Whereas summoning involving a ring and ritual is more serious. A summoning on DR as others have mentioned is tantamount to holding a loaded gun on someone.
-
I think it also has to do with the hierarchy and perception of the "proper order of things." A lesser power being should not summon a higher powered one in the same hierarchy. The lesser powered being goes to the higher powered being. It is a demonstration of deference and respect. The situation with Mab on DR was a special case. I do not think Mab would take kindly to a Knight summoning her, the Lady, or the Mother on a regular basis as it undermines their authority. You don't summon a more powerful being without consequences (now or later).
The nature of the summoning must also be taken into consideration. We saw Harry summon Toot Toot with just an offering and a whisper. That is very mild and not likely to cause concern. Whereas summoning involving a ring and ritual is more serious. A summoning on DR as others have mentioned is tantamount to holding a loaded gun on someone.
I think it mostly has to do with whether the senior of the two agrees with the Summoning itself. Molly was able to summon Mab in Cold Case without rebuke but the situation, and more importantly Mab's own duties as the Lady's Trainer, made it permissible. Even Mother Winter didnt...entirely object to Harry's Summons in Cold Days, and she was forced to make the trip and get him even though it caused her pain. She made use of the encounter, but interestingly she did not send a proxy to go get him and avoid her travel issues.
-
GodDAMMIT!!! That makes sense. A lot of Sense. Fuck, those poor kids.
No, no, no... Think about Amanda Carpenter being on the level with Leah... those poor dupes who stand in her way! ..... Damn, you know, I kinda see the cynical beginnings of Leah in her too. Mmm... if Molly were in actuality Mab then..
-
No, no, no... Think about Amanda Carpenter being on the level with Leah... those poor dupes who stand in her way! ..... Damn, you know, I kinda see the cynical beginnings of Leah in her too. Mmm... if Molly were in actuality Mab then..
I cant imagine that without having to imagine some horrible way for her to actually amass all that power. Lea was known for being a vampire muse and impressed mab by managing to use the desire to Create Beauty (ie Artists) to increase her "dark and evil power". Jenny Greenteeth liked to drown children and the elderly. Let Amanda go have a promising career in, I dunno, Law Enforcement or engineering or something so steeped in computers that the supernatural world just looses all interest in her.
-
I think he could have summoned her, he may even have tried, but apparently Mab has a way of blocking it or simply forbidding Molly to answer.. Remember when Harry tried to summon Lea, but she was under "treatment" on ice, thus Mab came in her stead.. So I have no doubt that Mab was keeping a close eye on both of them so a summoning could not happen..
-
I think he could have summoned her, he may even have tried, but apparently Mab has a way of blocking it or simply forbidding Molly to answer.. Remember when Harry tried to summon Lea, but she was under "treatment" on ice, thus Mab came in her stead.. So I have no doubt that Mab was keeping a close eye on both of them so a summoning could not happen..
According to the OP, it was confirmed by Jim at the most recent signing that Indeed he could have summoned her but did not (in the book he said he'd been sending various types of messages but didnt mention a direct Summoning), though Jim wasnt sure how it would have gone over.
-
Someone also asked him if the mother, queen and lady could give him conflicting orders, to which he replied “mwahaha they Are Now!” In that tone he gets when he got a great idea of how to screw Harry over.
Isn't this already the plot of Cold Days?
-
Harry may have not known what Molly would do if he summoned her because she had not been responding to him. He may have been thinking it was on purpose, and she would go Maeve on him if he had summoned her.
-
I cant imagine that without having to imagine some horrible way for her to actually amass all that power. Lea was known for being a vampire muse and impressed mab by managing to use the desire to Create Beauty (ie Artists) to increase her "dark and evil power". Jenny Greenteeth liked to drown children and the elderly. Let Amanda go have a promising career in, I dunno, Law Enforcement or engineering or something so steeped in computers that the supernatural world just looses all interest in her.
iirc though her mythology as a vampiric being came around in the 1800's were as her mythos is much older. So maybe she's just what we remember her for now?
-
iirc though her mythology as a vampiric being came around in the 1800's were as her mythos is much older. So maybe she's just what we remember her for now?
I dont know details about her RL history, Im just going off the WOJ on her:
2012 Beaver Creek signing
The Leansidhe nature seems to conflict with that of Winter - and she seems to be much more Summer-y, since she wears lots of reds and greens and so on.
They're not elementals. They're not divided along the lines of - specifically - of the classical elements. They're more about the elemental portions of the soul, which - okay, that's getting really technical and highfaluting. But the point is, Lea drains people's blood and drinks it, and that was how she made her bones in the fairy world. She's an actual legendary figure, where bards and poets and painters and so on would come to her and seek her inspiration. And she was kind of this vampire-muse - that was the original Leansidhe - that's her original story. And in the DF universe that was how she made her bones, that's how she impressed big Mab. It was like - oh wow - you took these guys who were out there just seeking to create something beautiful and yet increased your dark and evil power - Well done!
-
I could see myself supporting the Amanda as Molly's handmaiden situation if Molly leveled with Amanda from the beginning and told her everything so that Amanda could make an informed decision about filling that role. Probably won't happen that way, but thats what I would like to see.
-
I could see myself supporting the Amanda as Molly's handmaiden situation if Molly leveled with Amanda from the beginning and told her everything so that Amanda could make an informed decision about filling that role. Probably won't happen that way, but thats what I would like to see.
I don't think Molly would be capable of that. Remember, she's Sidhe now. She pretty much has to be vague.
She loves her family too much to do that to any of them. I figure she might eventually come across a changeling or lesser Fae on the job with whom she develops a strong working relationship, and comes along to serve as her second. That would of course piss off Mab and every other Sidhe in Winter, but Molly has already demonstrated a willingness to piss people off with how she plans on being the Lady.
-
Ok, ok.
A. Harry as WK might have a protocol for calling upon any one of the queens
B. Mab can not show and/or send her own proxy instead, she only has to show if it violates the above precedent actually. Harry had cause to summon Leah remember...
C. Can't imagine her being mad over an honest mistake in summoning her, Mad he was trying to undue her intention, maybe. But since he's not at the time privy to that I can't see why she'd be mad at something he couldn't by her own design know about. Like Being mad a kid playing with matches when he's no idea what fire is or that they make it.... illogical to me.
When I asked JB about the circle and Demonreach, he emphasized just how ballsy it was of Mab to step on the soil of Demonreach at all in Skin Game. The shores of that island are a SERIOUS threat to anything that pisses Dresden off while he is there. I am pretty sure ANY being would be really really upset and worse, frightened, about being summoned to the island for any reason, even accidentally.
Isn't this already the plot of Cold Days?
Neither Mother Winter nor Maeve ever actually give Harry a direct order. The only one he is given is from Mab. So, no, the situation has not come up yet.
-
Neither Mother Winter nor Maeve ever actually give Harry a direct order. The only one he is given is from Mab. So, no, the situation has not come up yet.
Ya. Maeve sorta kinda tried at the end, mentally pushing him while he was all deep in the Winter, but Maeve never actually Ordered him to take out Mab, just indicated it's what he should actually be doing
-
Ya. Maeve sorta kinda tried at the end, mentally pushing him while he was all deep in the Winter, but Maeve never actually Ordered him to take out Mab, just indicated it's what he should actually be doing
I wonder if the absence of a direct order was connected to the infection. For instance, was the mantle instinctively protecting Winter from direct Harm by not letting Maeve issue a binding Winter Order. Otherwise Maeve should have just issued an order to Harry with the intention of him violating it and thus violating Winter Law and being stripped of his powers.
-
So far, I haven't seen what I consider to be the most entertaining question in this topic be asked: what would Harry summoning Molly look like?
"Youngest noble daughter of Winter, I request your presence in this mortal coil. Eldest Jawa, and herder of the line of the woodworkers, grant me an audience. Accept this offering of Coke I leave before thee. Weaver of veils, mistress of well brewed coffee, desecrator of prepared foods, I needs must speak with thee. Padawan! Grasshopper! Lady Molly! I summon thee!"
-
So far, I haven't seen what I consider to be the most entertaining question in this topic be asked: what would Harry summoning Molly look like?
"Youngest noble daughter of Winter, I request your presence in this mortal coil. Eldest Jawa, and herder of the line of the woodworkers, grant me an audience. Accept this offering of Coke I leave before thee. Weaver of veils, mistress of well brewed coffee, desecrator of prepared foods, I needs must speak with thee. Padawan! Grasshopper! Lady Molly! I summon thee!"
Naaah.
"Molls! Molls! Molls! Get Over Here!"
Summoning is based on the strength of the Name, and I tend to think the ones that represent a more direct and personal connection work best. And they put a lot of emotion into the transition to him calling her Mols.
Fwiw Im pretty sure "Mr Sunshine" would get a faster response than most names for that dude, too.
-
Harry has her true name too. Though I think it was spoken by her mom and not directly from Molly’s own lips so it might not be as potent.
The cynical part of Harry has to be thinking “man this knowledge is probably worth a ton in trade, and it’s value is only going up.” I mean, imagine the price someone could ask for for Mabd true name.
So far, I haven't seen what I consider to be the most entertaining question in this topic be asked: what would Harry summoning Molly look like?
"Youngest noble daughter of Winter, I request your presence in this mortal coil. Eldest Jawa, and herder of the line of the woodworkers, grant me an audience. Accept this offering of Coke I leave before thee. Weaver of veils, mistress of well brewed coffee, desecrator of prepared foods, I needs must speak with thee. Padawan! Grasshopper! Lady Molly! I summon thee!"
Bahaha well played sir.
-
But how the hell would Amanda get roped up with the Fae enough to become one of them? We know Molly became one because she was so wrapped up with Lea that she somehow qualified to inherit the position. Is there really a way for that to happen with a position on a lesser scale? Christ, so many better questions than the crap I actually asked.
A. your assuming she's gonna do anything willfully
B. how do you know she doesn't.... Molly proved the fae heritage in her bloodline, Molly, as WL, has been spending time around her family like it's just her family, with her sisters, acting like everything is the same. But the dynamic of what she is is entirely different. And exposure to the fae has consequences. What I describe is perfectly correct, regardless of intention. If Molly suddenly learned to feed on latent adoration or other belief powers latent in the world, can you say her sister would not be a primary boost right at this very moment?
In a WoJ, Jim described Molly as being pure mortal prior to becoming the Winter Lady. At least, that's how it sounded. So Molly may not have had any fae in her ancestry at all.
If so, then it seems that it's not even necessary for someone to be part-fae in order to take up one of the Faery mantles. They just have to be... they have to have whatever the hell happened to Molly happen to them. Whatever that was, exactly.
The problem is that we really have no idea* what happened with Molly to make her vulnerable for mantle-hood. Did she make bargains with Mab or Lea? We never saw that. Was it just that she was tied into Harry's bargain with Mab? She was his apprentice, and therefore a part of his "demesne" or whatever, according to Faery law? And so when he became Mab's subject, Molly became Mab's subject as well, by default? It seems like human free will ought to have come into play somewhere in there before Molly's choices were all suddenly taken away from her.
Or maybe it was something else. Simple proximity to one of the fae over an extended period of time? The same proximity while debt was being paid or accrued, in the fae sense of the term?
If proximity is all that is required, then the other Carpenters are at risk. If debt is required, then they might be in the clear(though it would be so easy for a casual statement between siblings to end up starting a fairy balance sheet). If one must be considered a subject of one of the Faery Courts-- in however tenuous a fashion-- then the other kids are probably safe in making casual comments.
* (Okay, I realize I said we had no idea, and then I went on to state some of those ideas that I said we didn't have. I'm not changing it. Sometimes emphasis is more important than literal accuracy.)
-
You've been gone awhile acorn... I'm thinking we have Woj latent fae ancestory can be activated more or less by proximity, and another that the whole purpose of the fae making bargains is to get mortals caught up in the 'faeness' or whatever, like Harry being butt deep in it now.
*imo, it was the training to use fear as a weapon without directly violating free will and ergo Cosmic reasoning behind the 7 laws.
-
I think it mostly has to do with whether the senior of the two agrees with the Summoning itself. Molly was able to summon Mab in Cold Case without rebuke but the situation, and more importantly Mab's own duties as the Lady's Trainer, made it permissible. Even Mother Winter didnt...entirely object to Harry's Summons in Cold Days, and she was forced to make the trip and get him even though it caused her pain. She made use of the encounter, but interestingly she did not send a proxy to go get him and avoid her travel issues.
The Queens have obligations to the Knight, right? I mean, that makes sense. Harry doesn't seem to have any idea what those obligations are, but it seems like they'd have to be there as part of the Winter Knight package. They may not have a lot of obligations to the Knight, but they must owe him something in exchange for his service. Presumably something more than just turning off his sense of pain, I mean. Maybe one of those obligations is that when he calls, they must answer.
Was that what you were implying? I hadn't considered that until I read your post, but the way Mother Winter acted seems like an indication that she felt obliged to respond to his summons. Not in the normal way, maybe, but she didn't just ignore him, either.
-
The Queens have obligations to the Knight, right? I mean, that makes sense. Harry doesn't seem to have any idea what those obligations are, but it seems like they'd have to be there as part of the Winter Knight package. They may not have a lot of obligations to the Knight, but they must owe him something in exchange for his service. Presumably something more than just turning off his sense of pain, I mean. Maybe one of those obligations is that when he calls, they must answer.
Was that what you were implying? I hadn't considered that until I read your post, but the way Mother Winter acted seems like an indication that she felt obliged to respond to his summons. Not in the normal way, maybe, but she didn't just ignore him, either.
Actually, I think the Queens have the full needs of vassalage towards the Knight. He must serve them to the best of his abilities, and they in turn must use their power to protect him and his. When the two conflict obviously the Knight can be risked in service of the Queens, but they have a requirement to do so only reasonably.
Mind, if he should fail to serve they also can fail to protect, and punish instead. More or less Denethor's part of the oath ceremony with Pippin in LotR.
-
You've been gone awhile acorn... I'm thinking we have Woj latent fae ancestory can be activated more or less by proximity, and another that the whole purpose of the fae making bargains is to get mortals caught up in the 'faeness' or whatever, like Harry being butt deep in it now.
*imo, it was the training to use fear as a weapon without directly violating free will and ergo Cosmic reasoning behind the 7 laws.
Here is a couple of WOJs that may be relevant.
@longshotauthor @HarriedWizard So a half-elf changeling could have kids that when exposed 2 faerydom, child could exhibit faery qualities?
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard Yeah, though they’d need more exposure the wider the generation gap was. It would be impractical at some point.
The other question I had is, **unintelligible**…when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?
Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their **unintelligible**. But a lot of the other Fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.
**Audience laughter**
But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved **unintelligible** as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. Probably, when you’ve gone so far down the road, just pure power is madness, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience.
-
The Queens have obligations to the Knight, right? I mean, that makes sense. Harry doesn't seem to have any idea what those obligations are, but it seems like they'd have to be there as part of the Winter Knight package. They may not have a lot of obligations to the Knight, but they must owe him something in exchange for his service. Presumably something more than just turning off his sense of pain, I mean. Maybe one of those obligations is that when he calls, they must answer.
Was that what you were implying? I hadn't considered that until I read your post, but the way Mother Winter acted seems like an indication that she felt obliged to respond to his summons. Not in the normal way, maybe, but she didn't just ignore him, either.
Pretty much. I think anyone else that tried to summon Mother Winter would have simply failed, even using the Names he did. Though as Im saying this, Im not 100% sure if Id say she was actually forced to personally arrive, or was just impressed enough by his Gumption and Name guesses to exert herself. Ultimately she brought him there for a Test followed by a Power-up in the form of a glimpse of the true Cosmic War (even if he apparently was not able to fully process what he was seeing).
But in general yes, I think Harry and Molly both are considered high ranking Court Members, and as such a certain amount of tolerance for inconvenience and cordial communication is expected. Hell, Harry survived Summoning Titania too, who seemed to have all the Means/Motive/Opportunity to turn him into a grease-smear, but instead did choose (Choose?) to give him Knowledge as well (in the form of Nemesis's Name). So some part of this might just be a base level of courtesy expected of Fae nobility when they interact. Standardized Rules of Etiquette would be the first line of defense against accidentally getting roped into some form of obligation during such interactions.
-
Pretty much. I think anyone else that tried to summon Mother Winter would have simply failed, even using the Names he did. Though as Im saying this, Im not 100% sure if Id say she was actually forced to personally arrive, or was just impressed enough by his Gumption and Name guesses to exert herself. Ultimately she brought him there for a Test followed by a Power-up in the form of a glimpse of the true Cosmic War (even if he apparently was not able to fully process what he was seeing).
But in general yes, I think Harry and Molly both are considered high ranking Court Members, and as such a certain amount of tolerance for inconvenience and cordial communication is expected. Hell, Harry survived Summoning Titania too, who seemed to have all the Means/Motive/Opportunity to turn him into a grease-smear, but instead did choose (Choose?) to give him Knowledge as well (in the form of Nemesis's Name). So some part of this might just be a base level of courtesy expected of Fae nobility when they interact. Standardized Rules of Etiquette would be the first line of defense against accidentally getting roped into some form of obligation during such interactions.
And, of course, if Titania turned the Winter Knight into a greasy stain, it'd be war between Summer and Winter.
-
And, of course, if Titania turned the Winter Knight into a greasy stain, it'd be war between Summer and Winter.
Not really. If Harry is stupid enough to summon Titania....
-
Not really. If Harry is stupid enough to summon Titania....
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
-
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
It depends how Mab views the situation. Jim can write it both ways.
-
Ok. But don't forget that Harry has already summoned Titania. And she didn't grease stain him then.
-
Ok. But don't forget that Harry has already summoned Titania. And she didn't grease stain him then.
But could she have done so and how would her sister react? I am not sure.
-
Like all things with the the Fae, it would depend on the situation and the moods of the people involved (like any international politics, really). Arguably, the danger of a War between the courts would be pretty low even if she killed him, since he was Summoning her personally rather than in an official capacity and arguably Summoning her to discuss sedition against the Rule of Winter. But Mab could always choose to ignore all that context and cry foul at loosing her toy regardless of the circumstances (since something as permanent as Death would never actually be Titania's only option). Just like when two rival factions spilled into Erlking's home, the Rules really just served to lay out various standard options that everyone could agree on quickly; it didnt actually limit anyone's response all that much.
-
But could she have done so and how would her sister react? I am not sure.
Jim has made it pretty clear that if Harry screws up, and gets himself ghosted, it's on him. At least that's how I remember it. If he was out getting groceries, and Titania killed him, that's one thing. Summoning the Summer Queen as the Winter Knight on the other hand is a whole other can of worms. I don't doubt that Mab would turn the Summer Knight into one of her play things if he did such a thing.
-
Jim has made it pretty clear that if Harry screws up, and gets himself ghosted, it's on him. At least that's how I remember it. If he was out getting groceries, and Titania killed him, that's one thing. Summoning the Summer Queen as the Winter Knight on the other hand is a whole other can of worms. I don't doubt that Mab would turn the Summer Knight into one of her play things if he did such a thing.
Well, he did summon Titania in pursuit of his duly appointed mission as Winter Knight, and for the protection of the Winter Court.
-
Well, he did summon Titania in pursuit of his duly appointed mission as Winter Knight, and for the protection of the Winter Court.
Mab nearly gave an emissary of the White Council frost bite for just requesting the White Council to use the NeverNever to travel through Winter territory. If she had been summoned.......... I don't think said emissary would have survived.
-
I think the manner and reason for the summoning are probably the most important factor. Harry would be unwise to summon Titania anywhere, ever, but he has been known to do some dumb stuff.
However, if he tried to use, for instance, the circle on Demonreach to summon her, that would VERY much be like holding a loaded gun against someones forehead. So then the question becomes how much of a compulsion Harry can put into the summoning, which is something we should ask Jim about sometime. I seem to recall Harry saying both that powerful beings could simply choose to not show up, but I also think I remember there being methods of summoning that are compulsory to the thing being summoned.
Could Harry actually FORCE one of the queens to come to him? Mother Winter obviously did not want to answer Harry's summon because it both hurt and insulted her, but she still showed up, after a fashion at least. I would guess that a powerful enough call could force even a powerful being to show up, especially if you have their true name. After that, you just better pray you have a good enough circle to prevent instant immolation. (like the one on top of demonreach. I am increasingly certain it is a VERY important part of how the warden does his job)
I would guess this is addressed more in the early books when Jim tended to spend more time on the nuts and bolts of magic theory, and I dont remember those books as well.
-
“It is her way,” Mother Summer said, smiling. “She rarely leaves our cottage anymore. She lost her walking stick. While your summons was impertinent, it was a necessity and you had the right. But it is terribly painful for her to travel, even briefly. You, a mortal, hurt her.”
“I have heeded your summons; yet I would not enter this domain unless specifically bidden. Have I your permission to do so?”
From those words it is clear the queens can refuse the summons but they are Sidhe. Harry has the right to do so if the situation demands it and they will come if the situation demands it.
Better not do it for frivolous reasons though.
-
The impression I have gotten is that any mortal with magical talent can summon beings from the Nevernever. How accurate and effective that summoning is depends on how well prepared the summons is, which is enhanced by how familiar the summoner is with the target. A quick a dirty summons with no preparation, such as shouting "Mab,Mab, Mab, I summon thee!" while inside a magic circle would only work if the target was impatiently tapping her foot saying "Come on, Dresden, get your act together!" But a summons by someone who knew enough about the subject and took the time to properly prepare would compel the subject to come whether they wanted to or not. Now, the danger is that if you summon someone powerful without good reason, they may decide to smite you. Also, the summoning could be thwarted if the target was somehow prevented from coming. There are 2 examples I can think of where that came up, namely when Lea couldn't respond because she was trapped in Arctis Tor, and when Dresden tried to thwart the necros from summoning the Erlking by trapping him in a circle
-
I think a bigger question than whether Harry could summon Molly is whether it would ever occur to Harry that he could.
Remember, Harry can be mind-controlled thoroughly enough to forget about his blasting rod (as he was in Small Favor), and it seems to me like Mab could just as easily ensure that Harry never makes the connection between summoning Sidhe and Molly being Sidhe.
In fact, it should be even easier for Mab to do that now that he is her Knight.
-
I think a bigger question than whether Harry could summon Molly is whether it would ever occur to Harry that he could.
Remember, Harry can be mind-controlled thoroughly enough to forget about his blasting rod (as he was in Small Favor), and it seems to me like Mab could just as easily ensure that Harry never makes the connection between summoning Sidhe and Molly being Sidhe.
Harry might well not think of it because he still sees Molly as human.
Mab altering his mind to forget about stuff might be an "only works once" thing. Especially since the situation in SmF was favorable to it - Harry was concentrating on proving he wasn't still being influenced by Lash. Now that he's Winter Knight worrying about Mab's influence is on his mind a lot more.
Also, he's learned significantly more about mind magic since then, and also about himself. I don't think that sort of influence is going to work very well on Harry from now on. He needed Lash's help to resist an Outsider mental attack in WN, and there's damage; he defeats it himself without problems in CD.
Now, Mab can probably compel him using Winter Law, but compelling his actions is different from subtly altering his thoughts so he doesn't notice. We saw Fix being compelled in PG, but he was aware of exactly what the limits were.
-
I thought that there was text that Harry's mind is an exceptionally togh nut to crack.
-
I thought that there was text that Harry's mind is an exceptionally togh nut to crack.
Mab has an excellent nut cracker and she enjoys it so much...
-
But how the hell would Amanda get roped up with the Fae enough to become one of them? We know Molly became one because she was so wrapped up with Lea that she somehow qualified to inherit the position. Is there really a way for that to happen with a position on a lesser scale? Christ, so many better questions than the crap I actually asked.
Whilst i agree Amanda is not a reasonable choice. Molly's made it pretty clear at the end of Cold Case and again at the end of Skin Game that she's going to do her job her way and Mab can bite her shapely butt if she thinks she can make her do otherwise.
As such if she wanted a mortal in that position i'm sure she would without a second thought. But she's also Molly Carpenter, and she's not going to put anyone in that position who can't handle it.
-
I thought that there was text that Harry's mind is an exceptionally togh nut to crack.
He has a natural talent for hardened mental defense by White Council Standards, which unfortunately in the case of Mental Magic is kinda like saying you are the best swimmer in the kiddy pool.
-
He has a natural talent for hardened mental defense by White Council Standards, which unfortunately in the case of Mental Magic is kinda like saying you are the best swimmer in the kiddy pool.
Well... I think there are two different things going on here. Harry has an extremely powerful will (and stubbornness)... that makes him hard to change/influence. No one else in known history resisted a Fallen's coin-shadow for even a tenth of the time, much less actually changed it.
But he didn't have any useful training/skill/experience in defense against direct mental attack as of DB, so Corpsetaker could overcome him. By GS he seems to have learned a lot more though ... it's still not one of Harry's areas of talent the way it is for Molly.
OTOH, I don't think that Harry is as bad off as all that even by DB... Corpsetaker is both incredibly experienced (she was operating before the French and Indian War according to GS, so she's in the same age class as Eb and the Merlin at the youngest) and using a rare and incredibly powerful form of magic that's hard to defend against. Sure the White Council's mental training is bad by Corpsetaker's standards, but Corpsetaker might well be the best in the world in that particular area...
-
Well... I think there are two different things going on here. Harry has an extremely powerful will (and stubbornness)... that makes him hard to change/influence. No one else in known history resisted a Fallen's coin-shadow for even a tenth of the time, much less actually changed it.
But he didn't have any useful training/skill/experience in defense against direct mental attack as of DB, so Corpsetaker could overcome him. By GS he seems to have learned a lot more though ... it's still not one of Harry's areas of talent the way it is for Molly.
OTOH, I don't think that Harry is as bad off as all that even by DB... Corpsetaker is both incredibly experienced (she was operating before the French and Indian War according to GS, so she's in the same age class as Eb and the Merlin at the youngest) and using a rare and incredibly powerful form of magic that's hard to defend against. Sure the White Council's mental training is bad by Corpsetaker's standards, but Corpsetaker might well be the best in the world in that particular area...
I'd say that mental Defense Fortitude specifically is indeed one of Harry's natural Talents in the way that Molly started out as a natural with Veils. He has none of the rest of Neuromancy that requires sensitivity and a light touch, but like Molly's veils, his natural defenses where powerful even when entirely raw, though something that a real expert can still get past (Corpstaker for Harry in DB, Murphy for Molly in WN).
-
He has a natural talent for hardened mental defense by White Council Standards, which unfortunately in the case of Mental Magic is kinda like saying you are the best swimmer in the kiddy pool.
I wouldn't underestimate that.... it's a cluebat about Harry, just as his ability with Necromancy or thaumaturgy...