I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse.

Well dunno maybe what happens in Book of Tobit?

Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics.

Deuterocanon is in at least part of Protestant translations in a section of Apocrypha. And deuterocanon is still very much canon for Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient denominations. For all account much less exotic source than Enoch.

As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons. We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.

Interesting option (I think nephilim are on table - I mean Enoch aside - they are part of Noah story).
If Ethniu was scion (or at least in Balor was) then maybe some of such scions could well - go up and become full fledged angels and thus serve Creator while scions in titanic form were trying to play gods for mortals.

I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic.

I think he was raised as some sort of Baptist so I guess neither deuterocanon nor Enoch.
Still he clearly has some soft spot for Catholics, considering Russian Orthodoxy is expositure of Cthulhu in his books XD

Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).

It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.

Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)

Overall I have some problems with whole Murphy's story in PT/BG and with the way her character arc ended for now.
Because while I believe we'll see her as Einhernjar in BAT (I doubt we'll see her earlier - but there will be alt-Murphy from Darth Dresden world, and probably past!Murphy in Time Travel - with those two and Olympian and Dragons books only one left behind till BAT - I doubt Butcher would return her to story earlier. Unless Odin is in fact also the Dragon, the frenemy of Ferrovax, and the Dragon Dresden will have to kill in book 21 I think will be Odin and not Sean Connery.) I think Jim wasted few opportunities to delve bit more in her character.

And having more time between SG and PT, extra story for Harry to Winter Knight around, and Murphy being unable to follow, could be interesting. Especially since I consider her stubborn attitude to be a little bit unhealthy and worthy of unraveling a bit (AND then killing her in BG, because well there was no way Murphy would stay out of this one). As I value valor/courage, I think it's twin sister temperance - ergo virtue of abstaining from action and enduring inevitable is often playing second pair of violins because it's less flashy and less cool.

I also condier all this Valhalla schtick bit problematic, especially as Butcher seems to present - maybe to fool us - as almost happy ending at least in spiritual terms. I have problem with that because well I do not see Murphy as warrior, I see her as a cop, and as vindicator, but not someone fighting for sake of how cool it is - like berserkers of Valhalla. And many many Einhernjaren were by all chances terrible, terrible men from Murphy's perspective. Pillagers, warlords, arsonists, robbers, rapers. Now of course as long you have courage to do your job, that does not matter for Odin - he trains Einhernjaren to fight off Apocalypse not to replace Knights of the Cross - but still - like let's say how would Murphy reacted assuming her soul is intact (there's this theory Einhernjaren are just ghost powering their old meatsuits but somehow I doubt) to get a job a Sir Baron Marcone bodyguard in dystopian Chicago of 2525?

I must say I'm kinda Lord of the Rings guy, so while I get epic battles are cool, somehow I'd wish bit of this Tolkienian perspective - that you know not really it's not. In Battle Ground even in darkest moments of this battle - cool factor is always on in my perspective. So as we gonna finally delve more in  Harry's trauma in TM, this chance for Murphy is missing. There was this moment of her unravelling after Fidellachius destruction which was quite cool - but there was sort of no follow up, and she return to holding her guard high and cards close to heart.

On the other hand, I always suspected that losing Murphy would be the thing that flips Harry "dark"--and yes, he freaked out, but no, (with an assist) he didn't flip. That was a refreshing anti-trope. Of course Rudolph's still out there . . .

In my opinion it was most tropey as you can go. Good character is hot for vengeance but his friends stops him before he turned to dark side.
I mean if Dresden killed Rudolph (maybe soulgazing him for extra creepy factor) and Knights came too late, and Dresden would still well not be monster but himself, and get realisation bit too late - that could be oh so interesting. (Especially if knights knew but were unable to stop Dresden).

On my first read, Murphy's death and Harry's response, as well as the memorial service, felt REALLY . . . rushed? Unexplored? I understand Harry couldn't stop to process, but we can hear his whole internal monologue, and thoughts of Murphy seemed to fade away almost insultingly soon after she herself did. Especially when Harry said, "it would hurt, but I would heal"--I get the stoicism, but that just felt SO abrupt and rather out of character? I'm quite worried about the "chilling effect" of Winter on Harry . . .

I mean we see in his monologue he sort of pushed thoughts about Murphy into well more subconcious part of brain. They emerge bit for bit, but he conciously avoid thinking about her in battle, and well he's a wizard - even hotheaded building burner he has better control of this thought streams than 99,9 % of mankind.

I hope Twelve Months allows Harry to investigate his father’s death and his adoption by Justin, it would allow him to deal better with more recent trauma like the loss of Murphy, and the Wardens, and the folk in his banner. To properly assess his future, Harry needs to know his past.

I hope he will investigate like ANYTHING. Because since Grave Peril years between books are passing, and he's doing jackshit to uncover grander conspiracy. I mean he mentioned few times in BG some grander scheme around him and trying to connect the dots - problem is we have not seen him doing that. And YEARS are passing. If people on Dresden Files groups can create theories in this regard - so can bloody Dresden But nope. He just live from one catastrophe to another waiting till Cowl/Black Council/Mavra/Outsiders drop another piece of info on his lap in some epic conflict. P.I. Wizard, my ass.

Hey, two things I want to point out. With some of us fans, it wasn't Murphy hate. It was Murphy fatigue. She was it every book. The only break for the character was in DB. If she had taken more time off instead of being a workaholic, maybe we wouldn't have had fatigue of her.

This can be it.

Murphy’s new status as a follower of Odin

>Follower
>Follower

Look we all know Vadderung, assuming he will survive past BAT will have about 10 times as bad time trying to force Murphy to follow him, than Mab had with Dresden. She's gonna be nightmare for him, mind my words.

I think that more or less is the problem Jim ultimately had with her.  As a cop as a foil for the P.I. Harry, she was perfect.  When she got booted off the police force he had a hard time getting her to fit anywhere.  He had turned her into a moralizing five foot nothing wonder woman, which didn't add a whole lot to the books.

I mean there were interesting dark way to explore such characters, but ulimately Jim is well not that dark of a writer. He'll rather kill a character, than push it really into darkness, unless it's straight up villain. I think in a way it's simmilar with Thomas who also was sort of killed in Battle Ground. I mean we get really dark in quite gutwrenching way with him in Turn Coat, but it basically passed in a next book when he was needed for team!Dresden this darkness was basically gone, then we get solving his true love by more powerful force of threesomes, and in book 14 he's ally again. (Sure it ended with Justine's nemfection but that fabular aspect - not character development).

Elaine is still breathing which makes her a possible villain.  I don't think Jim can do homoerotic, but it might be interesting. His only foray into the subject was  awkward. Mab was virtual, the real Harry was back broke in Chi Town during the brief but torrid live stream. But she may yet be toast anyway.

Twice now we were warned about terrible possibility of Mab's dying and Molly becoming Winter Queen. So now I'm quite certain it's going to happen.

I just don't see how Murphy has been a foil for Murphy. I really think she was more like Harry than different from him. Butters (before he became a Jedi), Michael, Marcone, Nicodemus, and maybe even Carlos are all better foils for different aspects of Harry's character than Murphy was. I'm not big on literary analysis, so I could be missing something. I prefer a more Watsonian approach.

Yeah, they are both sort of Chaotic Good, stubborn, with tendencies to vigilantism. Murphy is maybe bit less anti-authoritarian and more vindictive, but still she will choose own brand of work and justice almost each time.
They clashed in books 1-3 precisely because they were quite simmilar.

Oh and one difference is - it's always Harry keeping secrets at least for a time because of his paranoia, which turns Murphy paranoid of him at early stages.

but I'm starting to think her trying to make the transition, failing, and then dying as she takes the field would have made a better end to her character arc than her never really trying in the first place.

I wholeheartedly agree. An I mean not even necessarily failing - simply in Battle Ground it was only thing she could done, at the moment. Big enough to smash all plans of control, Paranetting and other things like that. Battle to big for even changed Murphy to do anything more than try fighting.

I'm still undecided on whether her trying and succeeding would have been a better or worse story choice than what we got. It probably would depend entirely on the execution.

I really think that this one book after Skin Game that would push their relationship bit further, and allow her to deal emotionally with disability and breaking the sword, would be good - of course if written good. It could also push their romance more from rehabilitation/honeymoon stage to something else in PT/BG, like for instance just first thing that cames to my mind - well how to live together, they both have their lives somehow fixed, Dresden is now single father - I mean I'd really like to see some scenes with Karrin and Maggie, I mean if relationship was to develop she'd have to sort of become stepmother in some way what next.

(And there's also potential for Maggie being still terribly traumatized - because really she's too fine adjusted in what we've seen. Jim has too soft heart for a kids.)

I'm just wondering how Jim killing Murphy is going to hurt his fan base and yes he pleased the Murph-haters, but was it worth the cost I wonder have had a lot friends that are not happy and feel like Butcher wasted their time and money for 17 books only to get a giant middle finger.

I mean if someone consider 17 books waste of time, because on one characters arc ending on note that dissapointed them - that someone really need to cool down.

I guess one has to look at it as Gard did, the whole of her life, but I wouldn't call it death with dignity..

I mean gunshot to the neck is way more dignified than being smashed by flaming axe size of Milwaukee in my book, but that's me.
But generally I think this death was very much contrieved - and unless it was someones dark deed twisting fate (I mean within story not like Jim) then I am dissapointed. Not even because she died by mortal and weak one to boot - but because it feels just non-organic.

Yes, but we know uncle Harry will save the day. Perhaps even with the Baron's help. We have been hearing about Marcone's soft spot for kids since forever. So, the baby will be all right.

Only to reveal later baby is Outsider monster, and it will eat Will Borden

It was also one of the things that set the Dresden Files apart and why many of us fell in love with the series.

Well yes I agree  - fast tempo, and urgency are hallmarks of this series, even in it's slowest moments really.
But I think that could be done - without changing it.

We leave Dresden in one moment, and then in next books he connected some dots, make some active move until another catastrophe breaks loose in his life.

Sort of like - whole Kravnos case is said in retrospect. Or like Little Chicago - just made you know about something connected to the plot.

So I was like bit annoyed when Dresden after fight with Drakul's was all mouthy towards Listen to Winds, and he said "that I have to connect all dots on my own" or something like that. Like, dude - you did jackshit for all this years to connect all those dots, unless someone forced you

I mean one of my biggest systemic problems with Dresden Files is fact that Dresden does not seems to be doing much of research overall.
Those books are spread about year apart, with each he gets more and more very warning signs that shit is about to get really bad, but he does not seems to pursue leads, and he should really go for them at least since Blood Rites.

At the end Odin with all his flaws is about protecting this world, about protecting humanity. That is where the gods are for and that is what Odin is still doing. I can imagine Murphy going for that.

Look for all her cop style - Murphy is as CG as Harry, two peas in a pod.
I mean Mab is for defending reality like probably most of all supes, Dresden knows it - and hey guess how well this shit works for them

He and Uriel have discussed Murphy over lunch. It will be all right.

I don't thin Vadderung has discuss anything - this battle was fought under his banner - he has his choosing of slain warriors.
Now whether he'll be happy of this choice - that's another question.

That is actually a point. The apocalypse in the dresdenverse is the outsider apocalypse and if that one succeeds it is the end of this reality. So it won’t happen because our hero will make sure it does not happen this time.

I mean - why not both?
Apocalypse is random word now for great catastrophe. Apocalypse in Biblical Sense is Revelation - to Saint John of End Days.
But of course Empty Night is not End Days. End Days are Creator judging his creation finally and giving it final fixed shape.
Empty Night is Creator school friends destroying his Creation because creating worlds is lame and nerdy.
Those are two different things.

This reality is meantime continue.
And Murphy will play her part in this as well. She wanted to be involved, now she is. Nobody will take that away from her. I think she will be quite happy with her afterlife. She is not the playing harp on a cloud type.
So no last judgement in the dresdenverse. Murphy will battle and party forever.

I mean yes and no.
Uriel clearly points out - that beyond Murphy's dad station is something very much FINAL.

"“When you say what comes next, what do you mean, exactly?”
“The part involving words like forever, eternity, and judgment.”"

And Odin while immortal is not eternal. Not even close. Judgement is waiting for him as well I presume.
So of course reality is going to survive overall. Mortal world. At least part of nevernever.
But I'm quite sure Odin and Valhalla are goners - though maybe some Einhernjarns shall survive at least longer in this battle to help.
I'm quite sure Faerie Queen mantles can also be destroyed by the end - maybe some more ancient Titan or Goddess reforged from remains.

And in terms of Murphy's afterlife. I'm not sure. I mean she has issues, she never get to solve really, because damn if her all INDEPENDENT WOMAN facade is not a way to push down own grief and trauma. That's why I hoped we gonna get book with Oracle!Murphy to force her in new position and unravel it a bit, but nope - she run straight back to her former self. But also - because this she can have problem working for Odin.
Now she's stuck in Valhalla for like maybe even half of millenium, and then - remember MONOC securities are Mercenaries. Not really moral ones - Odin works with Marcone - that's not something Murphy would like to do. Murphy was never fighting for fighting sake. Not a warrior per se. More like vigilante (because even as a cop she has bit loose relation with laws and rules), punisher of wrongdoers, vindicator. Not berserker mercenary.

And as Konrad Curze once said "Death is nothing compared to vindication"

So by refusing to be servant of her own God, she was claimed as servant to army of pagan God.
Not even Irish one, dammit. She's gonna be pissed