ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Mr. Death on October 27, 2016, 06:14:42 PM
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So I decided to give my healer character a ring that can give her a pick-me-up during battle. Her Lore is 4, so I decided it would clear her mental stress track, once a session, with a crash after the scene in which it's used. I'm considering how that crash should manifest.
One option is to have her face a mental attack equal to double the number of boxes she cleared (i.e., if she used it to clear her whole track, that's an attack of 8 against her when things settle down).
Another idea might be to put the stress she cleared "back" afterward. So if, for example, she used the ring to clear her second, third and fourth stress boxes, then cast spells to fill up the first and second, when the stress comes back, she'd have a full stress track, then suffer a stress hit to box 2, either taking her out or forcing a consequence.
Another idea might be that the ring immediately up fills one of her consequence slots for its effect -- like she's rejuvenated, but suffers a Moderate mental consequence to reflect the strain on her.
Thoughts?
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Does she have to fill it up ahead of time? The Bear buckle operated like a reservoir iirc, so that he had had to fill up prior to using it. That might be more along the lines of taking stress each time she fills a slot in it, dealing with the the stress normally at that time. Then when she taps it, she can temporarily clear an equivalent amount of stress, but it all comes back next scene. I also might impose a consequence or some kind of temporary aspect (Overconfident, Drunk on Power, etc) to cover the mental shift it imposes. This way takes a bit more forethought but it prevents over-use and adds some situational variability to the thing so that she wont always have access to a complete negation of her entire stress track.
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You could simply have it add 1 or 2 additional mild mental consequences, which can only be used to power spells. Once they are taken, they stay until healed and can thus be compelled or invoked against the character, representing their fatigue.
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Does she have to fill it up ahead of time? The Bear buckle operated like a reservoir iirc, so that he had had to fill up prior to using it. That might be more along the lines of taking stress each time she fills a slot in it, dealing with the the stress normally at that time. Then when she taps it, she can temporarily clear an equivalent amount of stress, but it all comes back next scene.
The thing about the belt buckle is it's like the force rings -- there's an in-story justification for powering it up, but mechanically it's still "one use a session." Its power is already based on her Lore, having a bunch of extra mechanical preparation doesn't seem to fit. I mean, theoretically she could have "filled" it months ago and just not tapped it yet.
I also might impose a consequence or some kind of temporary aspect (Overconfident, Drunk on Power, etc) to cover the mental shift it imposes. This way takes a bit more forethought but it prevents over-use and adds some situational variability to the thing so that she wont always have access to a complete negation of her entire stress track.
That was one of my ideas, just having it impose a consequence. I like it better than just an aspect, because aspects are easier to clear, and there should be some kind of either lasting fatigue to it (a consequence) or immediate consequence (if done as an attack, let it take her out).
You could simply have it add 1 or 2 additional mild mental consequences, which can only be used to power spells. Once they are taken, they stay until healed and can thus be compelled or invoked against the character, representing their fatigue.
I don't think enchanted items can add consequence slots.
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The thing about the belt buckle is it's like the force rings -- there's an in-story justification for powering it up, but mechanically it's still "one use a session." Its power is already based on her Lore, having a bunch of extra mechanical preparation doesn't seem to fit. I mean, theoretically she could have "filled" it months ago and just not tapped it yet.
That was one of my ideas, just having it impose a consequence. I like it better than just an aspect, because aspects are easier to clear, and there should be some kind of either lasting fatigue to it (a consequence) or immediate consequence (if done as an attack, let it take her out).
Ok, Im with you. In that case I think I'd lean towards both Options 2 and 3, let the cleared stress come back, but also impose a mild consequence as a result of putting the stress off.
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I don't think enchanted items can add consequence slots.
They can do whatever you need them to in order to model what they are supposed to do. You can't, technically, clear a stress track, either. By giving you additional consequences, you can limit the use to spells only and have a way to model the fatigue.
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Ok, Im with you. In that case I think I'd lean towards both Options 2 and 3, let the cleared stress come back, but also impose a mild consequence as a result of putting the stress off.
Hm. Combining the two seems like it'd ramp up almost too fast. It would basically mean doing any magic after using the item would guarantee at least a Moderate consequence on top of the mild.
And, now that I'm thinking of it, I'm not sure how to model the overlap -- if you use it to clear four stress boxes, then use those four again, does that count as four attacks? It would basically guarantee a Taken Out if you cast more than one spell afterward.
Now I'm wondering if Option A is just a cleaner way to make the stress come back -- combine it into one attack on the caster, resisted by Discipline.
Maybe make it an either-or? Take a consequence, or face an attack?
They can do whatever you need them to in order to model what they are supposed to do. You can't, technically, clear a stress track, either. By giving you additional consequences, you can limit the use to spells only and have a way to model the fatigue.
It still has to work by the mechanical rules of Enchanted Items -- they have specific numbers of uses with durations.
Let's say my GM okays me for an enchanted item that gives me two extra consequences. What happens if I add another slot to it? Does that give me six extra consequences in total, since I added two more uses?
And the cost has to make sense. Getting two extra consequences for a specific use is a one-refresh stunt, going by the examples in the book. One enchanted slot is a quarter that cost, for the same effect; two enchanted slots would be half the stunt's cost, for triple the same effect.
Plus, consequences have always been a refresh and stats thing, distinct from the kinds of effects you could get from potions or spells.
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It still has to work by the mechanical rules of Enchanted Items -- they have specific numbers of uses with durations.
Let's say my GM okays me for an enchanted item that gives me two extra consequences. What happens if I add another slot to it? Does that give me six extra consequences in total, since I added two more uses?
And the cost has to make sense. Getting two extra consequences for a specific use is a one-refresh stunt, going by the examples in the book. One enchanted slot is a quarter that cost, for the same effect; two enchanted slots would be half the stunt's cost, for triple the same effect.
Plus, consequences have always been a refresh and stats thing, distinct from the kinds of effects you could get from potions or spells.
Make it 1 consequence then. The point is that you get additional resources to cast a spell in exchange for you being fatigued later. You could just as well call it an aspect and let it absorb 2 shifts of casting stress but then it sticks around until you get to rest. Same thing, it's just that consequences are doing exactly that already, so you don't need to invent the wheel anew.
If it bothers you, you could always go with a sponsored magic sort of deal, make those consequences pre-compelled, so when they get compelled for fatigue, you don't get a fate point for it.
But mechanically, there is not much difference between having free mental stress boxes or additional mental consequences to absorb the casting stress. If anything, a consequence can only ever be used for 1 spell, a full stress track could be used for 4 additional spells, if all goes well. I wouldn't be too bothered with it being too powerful.
Also, I would make activating the item an action in itself. If you want to activate it 3 times, that's 3 actions that you could have probably spend doing something else. And the additional consequences would go away at the end of the scene as well, if they are not used to cast a spell. You can't just charge them up indefinitely.
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Hm. Combining the two seems like it'd ramp up almost too fast. It would basically mean doing any magic after using the item would guarantee at least a Moderate consequence on top of the mild.
And, now that I'm thinking of it, I'm not sure how to model the overlap -- if you use it to clear four stress boxes, then use those four again, does that count as four attacks? It would basically guarantee a Taken Out if you cast more than one spell afterward.
Now I'm wondering if Option A is just a cleaner way to make the stress come back -- combine it into one attack on the caster, resisted by Discipline.
Maybe make it an either-or? Take a consequence, or face an attack?
My fear with Option A is how well it would scale in the long run. This is a powerful enough trick that you dont want them to be able to just shrug off the "attack." Id want to ensure that there is some downside to using it regardless.
One way to mitigate the overlap when the stress comes back is to treat it like spell Backlash, so that she can choose to take it as either mental or physical, and thus she has the option to leave her mental stress track open for further casting, if thats a concern in a given situation.
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If you want to stick more or less to the rules as written, you'll probably have to ditch the stress-track-clearing idea. Maybe create Aspects that can be tagged to cast spells without stress instead - that at least has some precedent in sponsor debt.
Setting aside the RAW, I like this option:
Another idea might be to put the stress she cleared "back" afterward. So if, for example, she used the ring to clear her second, third and fourth stress boxes, then cast spells to fill up the first and second, when the stress comes back, she'd have a full stress track, then suffer a stress hit to box 2, either taking her out or forcing a consequence.
Might be a bit problematic if it was in a book, but it sounds like a good idea for a group where nobody's gonna try any shenanigans.
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If you want to stick more or less to the rules as written, you'll probably have to ditch the stress-track-clearing idea. Maybe create Aspects that can be tagged to cast spells without stress instead - that at least has some precedent in sponsor debt.
The main problem with that is it's 3 shifts to create an aspect, so a 4-shift effect would only give one aspect to tag, which is one spell; at that point, you're better off just having an enchanted item that is, itself, a spell (though I suppose I could convert one of those shifts into an extra usage).
I've looked at how the RAW handles things like Harry's super-coffee potion and the bear belt, and they don't seem to quite match the effect demonstrated in the books; the super-coffee potion acts as Armor:1 against stress from calling up power (while retaining the 1 stress minimum) and lets you ignore fatigue consequences (they still exist, they just can't be tagged or invoked), while in the book it seemed to recharge Harry and give him extra energy he didn't have before. I don't have the Paranet Papers on me, but I think the belt was similar, in that it mainly worked by suppressing already-existing consequences, though I'll have to double check it.
Edit: Double checked, and yeah, the bear belt buckle just lets you ignore tags and compels from up to two consequences, which doesn't quite fit the rejuvenation Harry describes to me.
Setting aside the RAW, I like this option:
Might be a bit problematic if it was in a book, but it sounds like a good idea for a group where nobody's gonna try any shenanigans.
What potential potential shenanigans do you see with it?
My fear with Option A is how well it would scale in the long run. This is a powerful enough trick that you dont want them to be able to just shrug off the "attack." Id want to ensure that there is some downside to using it regardless.
That is a good point, it would be less dangerous for higher-level wizards.
That said, it's potentially an 8-shift attack (higher, if you're using PP's Mental Toughness powers), and I doubt many GMs will allow a Discipline score of more than 6. So almost by default, the defense is at a disadvantage, and if you're in desperate enough straits to use this, chances are you refilled most if not all of your mental stress boxes after using the item, in which case even a 1 or 2 shift hit could be a take out or consequence.
You could use a fate point to boost the Discipline roll; and if your stress track is still clear you could be okay; but if you had fate points to spend and didn't cast spells after using it, why would you use it in the first place?
One way to mitigate the overlap when the stress comes back is to treat it like spell Backlash, so that she can choose to take it as either mental or physical, and thus she has the option to leave her mental stress track open for further casting, if thats a concern in a given situation.
That could be an option, yeah. Though it could be an easy out if you haven't taken much physical stress. I feel like there needs to be, if not a certainty, then at least a reasonably high probability of ending up with a consequence or at Taken Out as a result of using this.
Haru: I'm sorry, but the consequence thing just doesn't seem to fit for me and it doesn't feel like it scales well with the enchanted item rules. Imagine the item applied to physical consequences, for instance, and a more powerful mage -- I've had some who could crank out 6-shift items with 5 uses for one enchanted slot apiece; under this scaling, that's 10 additional consequences to dole out, which is insane, even if they go away at the end of a scene. Consequences work best as a resource limited by skill points and refresh. I just don't think they're in the purview of enchanted items.
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What potential potential shenanigans do you see with it?
It seems like a really good item to have in a win-or-die fight that's gonna last a long time. So it could become almost ubiquitous among strong wizards in climactic fights. And that would deform stories a bit; it's not like every high-end Wizard uses something like it in the novels.
Also, people could try to exploit the fuzziness of take-out narration when succumbing to their own spells after the fight.
Nothing you'd have to worry about for your game.
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It seems like a really good item to have in a win-or-die fight that's gonna last a long time. So it could become almost ubiquitous among strong wizards in climactic fights. And that would deform stories a bit; it's not like every high-end Wizard uses something like it in the novels.
Also, people could try to exploit the fuzziness of take-out narration when succumbing to their own spells after the fight.
Nothing you'd have to worry about for your game.
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I suppose any of the options depend on someone at the table playing it straight enough to actually accept long-term consequences instead of cheesing out of it by saying, "It knocks me out. Then I wake up fine."
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How about a shapeshifting ring? Something that stuck an aspect on her and changed her form slightly enough so that one of her skills switched with endurance, like lore. In a battle she'd have the extra stress from endurance to fill up. Then there are immediate consequences in battle from what she did.
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How about a shapeshifting ring? Something that stuck an aspect on her and changed her form slightly enough so that one of her skills switched with endurance, like lore. In a battle she'd have the extra stress from endurance to fill up. Then there are immediate consequences in battle from what she did.
That might well work, mechanically, based on the Paranet Papers' rules for shapeshifting (2 shifts of effect for every 1 refresh of power, and Beast Change -- which swaps skills -- is 1 refresh; plus consequences), but the idea behind the ring is to help her spellcasting reserves, which are on her mental track.
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That might well work, mechanically, based on the Paranet Papers' rules for shapeshifting (2 shifts of effect for every 1 refresh of power, and Beast Change -- which swaps skills -- is 1 refresh; plus consequences), but the idea behind the ring is to help her spellcasting reserves, which are on her mental track.
You also have the thing of letting them use the physical stress track to fight. So, one stunt to emulate Beast Change, a second to give her a stunt to let her use her endurance for mental stress. 4 shifts. Lasts a couple minutes, or one scene.
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about a spell that transfers energy from one person to another, or drains it from someone else.If you drain enough you can even compensate for the casting of the spell. Use people like a battery. No need to worry about consequences to your character or aspects to make up for it. You might have other issues but at least you have the energy to keep fighting.What good is an ally if he isn't willing to give his all to you...i mean the fight.
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about a spell that transfers energy from one person to another, or drains it from someone else.If you drain enough you can even compensate for the casting of the spell. Use people like a battery. No need to worry about consequences to your character or aspects to make up for it. You might have other issues but at least you have the energy to keep fighting.What good is an ally if he isn't willing to give his all to you...i mean the fight.
That's not really something a doctor would do.
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That's not really something a doctor would do.
A White Court Doctor might... ;)
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A White Court Doctor might... ;)
Pretty sure sacrificing others for their own health is the opposite of what any doctor is supposed to do >.>
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Pretty sure sacrificing others for their own health is the opposite of what any doctor is supposed to do >.>
Nah, they're just sacrificing some livestock...
This is actually a reasonable build for a Wampire Wizard. Per a WOJ (unverified) they top out at lower power levels thatn pure mortals but they can use their hunger to juice spells in impressive ways. Using kine as Ki batteries would make a lot of sense for that.
'Are there White Court vampire wizards?'
Yes, there are. Thomas is middle-of-the-road in power and [ed: think I'm remembering this correctly] the strongest don't get as strong as mortal wizards [/ed], but they can pull off some strong tricks with their Hunger.
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Hmm. Why not just have the belt grant +1 Mental Stress track length per Effect Strength and grant the Aspect Invigorated By Seemingly Endless Power? Effectively, have it grant 1 effective Refresh worth of powerup for the scene per 2 points of power, aka one half point of refresh per shift. That work out to 1 Stress Box per Effect Strength. Then at the end of the scene, those boxes go away but any incurred stress that was in those boxes remain. The stress hits in the boxes that no longer exist would then occur as stress hits that happen all at once; if the character gets taken out and then gets hit more times, inflict one Moderate or better Consequence and let the rest of the hits dissipate.
This has the side effect of making the character resistant to mental attacks, which they should be at this point - their mind becomes more awake and alive after using the invigoration, and while "high" on the power resisting such attacks seems like child's play. Too bad the GM can compel that new Aspect to make you not realize how limited your newfound power is....
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Like adding a consequence, I feel like adding stress boxes is the realm of powers and stunts, not spells. And there are reasons the stress track is as short as it is -- with this set up, I could just cast this spell a couple times, giving myself a dozen stress boxes, effectively unlimited spells, and then at the end go, "Oh, it takes me out. I wake up a couple hours later."
Also, once a character's taken out, they don't take more consequences. If you could take more consequences while taken out, why would you bother letting yourself be taken out?
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Like adding a consequence, I feel like adding stress boxes is the realm of powers and stunts, not spells. And there are reasons the stress track is as short as it is -- with this set up, I could just cast this spell a couple times, giving myself a dozen stress boxes, effectively unlimited spells, and then at the end go, "Oh, it takes me out. I wake up a couple hours later."
Also, once a character's taken out, they don't take more consequences. If you could take more consequences while taken out, why would you bother letting yourself be taken out?
Wouldnt the Once per Session and Single Scene durations prevent that particular kind of abuse?
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Wouldnt the Once per Session and Single Scene durations prevent that particular kind of abuse?
It's an enchanted item. If I add a slot to it, that's three uses.
Hell, even if it has no uses left, you can use an enchanted item again by spending a mental stress.
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It's an enchanted item. If I add a slot to it, that's three uses.
Hell, even if it has no uses left, you can use an enchanted item again by spending a mental stress.
Ah, kk Im with you now. That's why I initially was thinking it needed some kind of active Charge Up as opposed to just assuming it happens off-screen. If you take the force Rings as the enchanted Item example, I'd always thought of the removal of the Per Session limit would be equivalent to when harry upgraded them to interlocking rings with multiple shots, he could use them much more often but they'd still require actual time and movement to recharge. From a purely in-world practicality sense, no amount of Mental Stress would create a reservoir of energy from nothing, I think this particular item would simply need a hard limit. Maybe call it once-per-session, but also once per lunar cycle in-game, as an example? Maybe once per Sunrise if that's too restricting?
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Ah, kk Im with you now. That's why I initially was thinking it needed some kind of active Charge Up as opposed to just assuming it happens off-screen. If you take the force Rings as the enchanted Item example, I'd always thought of the removal of the Per Session limit would be equivalent to when harry upgraded them to interlocking rings with multiple shots, he could use them much more often but they'd still require actual time and movement to recharge. From a purely in-world practicality sense, no amount of Mental Stress would create a reservoir of energy from nothing, I think this particular item would simply need a hard limit. Maybe call it once-per-session, but also once per lunar cycle in-game, as an example? Maybe once per Sunrise if that's too restricting?
That's the thing -- that limit is what the slots are supposed to represent in the first place. The interlocking rings, as the RPG book states, is basically just Harry adding extra uses and slots to it.
And even then, if you made a character specializing in crafting, you could easily make an item double this strength (8 extra stress boxes?) for three or four times the amount of uses in one slot.
If you have to change everything about how enchanted items work to accommodate the idea, it's probably not a good idea.
... Now I'm leaning back toward the "suffer an attack at 2x the number of boxes cleared." While it might not be an insurmountable hit to use it once, it would heavily discourage using the item multiple times in a row -- if you used it twice, that's a 16 shift hit coming your way. Three times and it's 24.
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That's the thing -- that limit is what the slots are supposed to represent in the first place. The interlocking rings, as the RPG book states, is basically just Harry adding extra uses and slots to it.
And even then, if you made a character specializing in crafting, you could easily make an item double this strength (8 extra stress boxes?) for three or four times the amount of uses in one slot.
If you have to change everything about how enchanted items work to accommodate the idea, it's probably not a good idea.
... Now I'm leaning back toward the "suffer an attack at 2x the number of boxes cleared." While it might not be an insurmountable hit to use it once, it would heavily discourage using the item multiple times in a row -- if you used it twice, that's a 16 shift hit coming your way. Three times and it's 24.
You arent wrong that the Rules As Written allow it. But that's only half the story, especially in a system as narrative driven as this one. In a hard DnD system you'd have to rework a whole lot more, but in this one the narrative descriptions arent just supposed to be flavor wrappings, they are just as binding as the crunchy bits. And in the case of Enchanted Items, they are all fundamentally a reservoir that has to be refilled. You can buy as many uses per session as you want, but it's still innately finite, and requires time between sessions to allow a refill. I dont see that as reworking the system, just applying all implications and restrictions of the setting.
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You arent wrong that the Rules As Written allow it. But that's only half the story, especially in a system as narrative driven as this one. In a hard DnD system you'd have to rework a whole lot more, but in this one the narrative descriptions arent just supposed to be flavor wrappings, they are just as binding as the crunchy bits. And in the case of Enchanted Items, they are all fundamentally a reservoir that has to be refilled. You can buy as many uses per session as you want, but it's still innately finite, and requires time between sessions to allow a refill. I dont see that as reworking the system, just applying all implications and restrictions of the setting.
I think I misunderstood you -- I thought you were suggesting that this particular item get a hard limit on uses -- i.e., that you wouldn't be allowed to apply the extra-slots-for-more-uses rule, or even the rule about getting an extra use out of it for a mental stress.
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I think I misunderstood you -- I thought you were suggesting that this particular item get a hard limit on uses -- i.e., that you wouldn't be allowed to apply the extra-slots-for-more-uses rule, or even the rule about getting an extra use out of it for a mental stress.
Most likely Im the one that's misunderstanding, this isnt my strongest part of the rules, and Ive been trying to review them as we go.
I dont want anyone to be able to recharge it on the fly, no. If the item is crafted with multiple uses instead of 1 that would be fine, representing finite sub-reservoirs that can be independently tapped. But it doesnt seem right to be able to grit your teeth and suddenly come up with more Chi to refill it, not unless you are burning some other resource.
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Most likely Im the one that's misunderstanding, this isnt my strongest part of the rules, and Ive been trying to review them as we go.
I dont want anyone to be able to recharge it on the fly, no. If the item is crafted with multiple uses instead of 1 that would be fine, representing finite sub-reservoirs that can be independently tapped. But it doesnt seem right to be able to grit your teeth and suddenly come up with more Chi to refill it, not unless you are burning some other resource.
Yeah, that last bit's kind of an issue no matter how this thing works -- though every use of it comes with additional crash.
It could be, since she's a doctor and knows physiology, the item basically uses a spark of magic to stimulate her adrenal gland and that's what actually gives her a boost, and the crash afterward is the result of that.
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Yeah, that last bit's kind of an issue no matter how this thing works -- though every use of it comes with additional crash.
It could be, since she's a doctor and knows physiology, the item basically uses a spark of magic to stimulate her adrenal gland and that's what actually gives her a boost, and the crash afterward is the result of that.
That would be an interesting direction to take it. It allows for some interesting consequences similar to what Harry faces using the Winter Mantle.
Another option might be to do it via a potion rather than normal enchanted, and just make it something that the character routinely crafts and carries. At least then you run less risk of stacking it multiple times, or overusing it in a given scene or session.