ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on October 10, 2017, 03:06:30 PM
-
Ok Uriel saw to it that Harry had possession of one of the Swords at the end of Death Masks and another at the end of Small Favor. However, the Harry in the Mirror Mirror world was already on a darker path at this time. Would Uriel have seen this and NOT given Harry the swords?
If so, then there could very well be three knights of the sword in the Mirror Mirror world. Presumably Sanya is one. The others might be new characters. I do not see Butters getting there without Harry's encouragement and I do not see Karin being a knight while dealing with the emotions of Harry going dark. Anybody else as an obvious candidate? I kinda like Georgia as a candidate as she is somewhat of an underutilized character and a genuinely good person.
PS: My own believe is that dark harry believes he is doing the right thing through dark means. As such, he would avoid his former allies as he would not want to hurt them. Harry is LOYAL to his friends. This means that there is a good chance that Harry's friends are going to be still around in the mirror mirror world. Not really friends anymore to the dark harry, but around.
My guess is that Dark Harry is now sufficiently dark that he would kill his old friends if they got in the way, but enough remains that he still "tries" to avoid situations where they would be in the way. But Harry's old friends are probably under no illusions about how dark "dark harry" has become.
-
Well, there's that WOJ that Mirror Marcone was going to be "interesting".
It's conceivable that if -Harry was already on a markedly darker path by that time, his involvement in the Shroud affair might have been much smaller, and Marcone would have had to take a more direct hand instead of sitting back and assuming Harry would do most of the heavy lifting. That could lead to most of his criminal henchmen getting killed going up against the Denarians, and some sort of inspirational push from Shiro to renounce his old life and become a Knight.
-
Ok Uriel saw to it that Harry had possession of one of the Swords at the end of Death Masks and another at the end of Small Favor. However, the Harry in the Mirror Mirror world was already on a darker path at this time. Would Uriel have seen this and NOT given Harry the swords?
If so, then there could very well be three knights of the sword in the Mirror Mirror world. Presumably Sanya is one. The others might be new characters. I do not see Butters getting there without Harry's encouragement and I do not see Karin being a knight while dealing with the emotions of Harry going dark. Anybody else as an obvious candidate? I kinda like Georgia as a candidate as she is somewhat of an underutilized character and a genuinely good person.
PS: My own believe is that dark harry believes he is doing the right thing through dark means. As such, he would avoid his former allies as he would not want to hurt them. Harry is LOYAL to his friends. This means that there is a good chance that Harry's friends are going to be still around in the mirror mirror world. Not really friends anymore to the dark harry, but around.
My guess is that Dark Harry is now sufficiently dark that he would kill his old friends if they got in the way, but enough remains that he still "tries" to avoid situations where they would be in the way. But Harry's old friends are probably under no illusions about how dark "dark harry" has become.
One of the things I believe went differently in Grave Peril is that Amoracchius was destroyed, so I think there will only be two. Sanya might've been killed in the opening act of Death Masks, by Ursiel, because Michael wasn't fighting with him. Because it's the sword of Hope, the obvious choice is Hope Carpenter (kidding).
Shiro is presumably also dead, of cancer if not action, so I'm passing on his Sword too.
I'm going to speak in terms of Two Knights.
Georgia would be interesting; I think she's underused—she shows up to be a headshrinker, then fades from the narrative an awful lot. There's something to be said for being one of two women in a loving, healthy, functional long-term relationship—the other being Charity. I could see her with Faith.
Marcone is a staple choice of Sword Wielders in the future, and I think Hope fits him just as well as Love. There are too many times when he's taken action when no one else would, or shown up as the proverbial cavalry. Narratively, Marcone's responsible for a whole lot of Hope Spots. He's also got some moves, what with all the knife-throwing. So sure, I could see that.
To narratively fit broken faith restored, how about Morty as an off-the-wall choice? Grave Peril marks a turning point for his character, so I don't see why Harry from the Darkest Timeline and he couldn't work together more as equals.
-
I just do not see Marcone being a knight. He may play a critical role, but part of who Marcone is -- is a crime boss. I cannot image a crime boss being a knight of the cross.
-
I just do not see Marcone being a knight. He may play a critical role, but part of who Marcone is -- is a crime boss. I cannot image a crime boss being a knight of the cross.
Hmm Mirror-Mirror Gard might be someone that Harry should be VERY wary of... The Choosers of the dead were not exactly nice.
/Ulfgeir
-
I just do not see Marcone being a knight. He may play a critical role, but part of who Marcone is -- is a crime boss. I cannot image a crime boss being a knight of the cross.
I see your point, and I agree that he's a terrible choice as he is now. I'd argue redemption: it happened for Sanya, and it can happen for Marcone. The question, to me, is whether or not him picking up a Sword would make for a better story. I don't know if that would be the case.
-
Murphy was a good candidate for the Sword because of her Faith in Justice. One of Jesus' disciples was on a path to attack Jesus before his moment on the road to Damascus.
If, and this could be key, Persephone is saved, if He heals that girl via the Replacement Shroud, it could be a transformative moment for Marcone.
-
Murphy was a good candidate for the Sword because of her Faith in Justice. One of Jesus' disciples was on a path to attack Jesus before his moment on the road to Damascus.
If, and this could be key, Persephone is saved, if He heals that girl via the Replacement Shroud, it could be a transformative moment for Marcone.
Makes me wonder if Listens-to-Wind could do something for her.
-
If, and this could be key, Persephone is saved, if He heals that girl via the Replacement Shroud, it could be a transformative moment for Marcone.
Effectively, she's in the same boat Harry was in during Ghost Story - her soul isn't "at home" any more, but her body is still alive. If she hasn't fallen victim to lemurs or wraiths, or chosen to cross over, it probably wouldn't actually take miracle-level mojo to get reunite her with her body.
Assuming her wandering soul could be found and brought to her hospital, it's really just a less 'fresh' case of the same problem Mort Lindquist solved for Butters by reuniting him with his body after Corpsetaker displaced him from it. More ideal conditions (prep time, and approaching it not having just been strung up and tortured for the best part of a day) would probably compensate for her having been out-of-body so much longer.
Heck, if he applied some thought to the problem, I'd argue it's even within Harry's technical capability. He has all the necessary pieces since first encountering Persephone, between his greater understanding of death from GS, his experience with necromancy in raising Sue, and probably a trace of soulfire to connect with Persephone's real actual soul instead of just a spirit. Sure, he'd be skirting the edges of the necromancy law again, but if her soul is still wandering and her body isn't actually dead, she's not technically "beyond the borders of life".
-
Effectively, she's in the same boat Harry was in during Ghost Story - her soul isn't "at home" any more, but her body is still alive. If she hasn't fallen victim to lemurs or wraiths, or chosen to cross over, it probably wouldn't actually take miracle-level mojo to get reunite her with her body.
Assuming her wandering soul could be found and brought to her hospital, it's really just a less 'fresh' case of the same problem Mort Lindquist solved for Butters by reuniting him with his body after Corpsetaker displaced him from it. More ideal conditions (prep time, and approaching it not having just been strung up and tortured for the best part of a day) would probably compensate for her having been out-of-body so much longer.
Heck, if he applied some thought to the problem, I'd argue it's even within Harry's technical capability. He has all the necessary pieces since first encountering Persephone, between his greater understanding of death from GS, his experience with necromancy in raising Sue, and probably a trace of soulfire to connect with Persephone's real actual soul instead of just a spirit. Sure, he'd be skirting the edges of the necromancy law again, but if her soul is still wandering and her body isn't actually dead, she's not technically "beyond the borders of life".
Jim has said Harry will break each law in one form or another. If raising Sue didn't break the necromancy law, playing fast and close to this grey area in bringing back a coma patient might qualify.
-
The idea of Marcone being redeemed is interesting. I just do not see it occurring in Mirror Mirror. If it occurs, it will be in the core universe.
-
I like Murphy, I could see her picking up the sword earlier to bring justice to -Harry.
The idea of Marcone being redeemed is interesting. I just do not see it occurring in Mirror Mirror. If it occurs, it will be in the core universe.
Could be that Harry realizes Marxone have a good heart and is inspired to help redeem him.
-
I don't think Marcone has become a Knight of the Cross in the Mirror Universe. I think that if things played out as they did in Death Masks without Harry's involvement, Marcone would have been going up against the Denarians directly. Even with Gard there to advise and help, he doesn't stand a chance against Nic and his gang. I think Nic gets hold of Marcone, and gives him the choice: pick up Lasciel's Coin or die. Marcone is a pragmatist and a survivor, so he'd eventually say yes.
Now, Nic having access to Marcone's criminal empire is one thing that is likely to keep Nic occupied and distracted, but Marcone is no weakling and I think Jim's use of the word "interesting" comes into play here. Marcone, similar to our Harry, resists Lasciel's influence. It's not a willing partnership like with Nic and Andurel, it's very much a contest for control between those two. I'd imagine they reach a sort of stalemate where Marcone can hold her off mostly, but she starts playing a long, subtle, waiting game for eventual control. When our Harry shows up, it all goes out the window when Marcone sees proof positive that the Fallen can be rejected and cast out (I doubt he ever talks with Sanya to learn how he got rid of Magog, and I doubt the Denarians would advertise it), while on Lasciel's side, she flips out when she sees proof positive that a mere mortal can defeat her, as Harry did in our universe. A moment like that would be a perfect time for the two of them to finally throw down. Having Harry tell the story of how Sanya divested himself of Magog and became a Knight as a result could give Marcone the necessary strength to follow in Sanya's footsteps and cast Lasciel aside and pick up one of the Swords.
-
this is going straight off the TOS Mirror Mirror premise so lots of bad stuff.
So the real question is at which point did Harry make the different choice in Grave Peril.
There are so many points in the mid to latter part of the books.
Was it during the initial ball and face off or later when he had to chose whether to give up his GF and avoid the war or not? The delay of the start of the War and all that it affected would've started his downward spiral.
-
I'm pretty sure it's Marcone. Take Harry out of Death Masks and suddenly it's a straightforward Marcone v. Old Nick. Shiri sacrifices himself to save Marcone, and this completely floors him. End of the day, Marcone lets Michael have the Shroud, but Michael lets Marcone take a day to use it first.
This positions the beginning of a redemptive arc for Marcone. Perhaps, given Harry's absence during Death Masks (or Harry's inability to help Old Nick pull it off), Old Nick throws a Coin at Marcone.
Think about it: even Marcone would stop a kid from picking up a Coin. Boom. A further move towards Knighthood. Because Marcone won't be beholden to a demon, he struggles and frees himself of the Coin, finally giving it up to Michael. And that's when Michael considers Marcone for Knighthood. Perhaps the experience teaches Marcone to think about Knighthood himself. In the main universe, he created the BFS to protect his territory in Chicago from baddies. He becomes legitimate-ish in the DF-verse, why not in the MM-verse? Maybe he can clean those bloody hands.
See how easy that is? How in character? And I'm not even the professional.
-
It's good to see you foxed.
-
There's a cool bit of imagery from Small Favor that I don't see get brought up enough, from Marcone and Ivy's rescue.
Sanya has given his Knight's cloak to Marcone. Understandable, since it's cold. Harry takes a moment to mention how Sanya's large cloak doesn't fit Marcone's smaller frame. Then later we get to the moment Marcone and Ivy are winched up to the helicopter:
The line came down with a lift harness attached to it. “Marcone,” I shouted over the sound of the rotors and the minigun—which is to say, I was more or less mouthing it exaggeratedly. “You first. That was the deal.”
He shook his head and pointed his finger at Ivy.
I snarled and pushed the girl into his arms, then started slapping the harness over him. He got it after a second, and in a couple more we had him secured in the harness and holding the semiconscious Ivy tight against him. I gave Luccio the thumbs-up, and Marcone and Ivy went zipping gracefully up the line to the chopper, wrapped in the white cloak, the scarlet crosses on it standing out sharply in the winter light.
If such striking imagery--shown during a moment where Marcone is acting on his better morals--isn't some kind of foreshadowing, I don't know what it is.
... Nothing, is the answer. It could be absolutely nothing.
-
I like Marcone as a Knight. I agree that it is actually not too far out of character for him. He already holds to a personal code that was developed through life experiences. A few different experiences and you get a different (better) code that allows him to be a Knight.
-
The most problematic drawback is that Marcone has a fiercely independant nature that buck at "heavenly" guidance.
-
The most problematic drawback is that Marcone has a fiercely independant nature that buck at "heavenly" guidance.
Very true. However, if his newly developed code in MM aligns with the Knight's Purpose I think he would adapt. He would choose to view it as a partnership pursuing mutual goals than being subservient to a higher power.
-
Very true. However, if his newly developed code in MM aligns with the Knight's Purpose I think he would adapt. He would choose to view it as a partnership pursuing mutual goals than being subservient to a higher power.
Like, I know that Marcone is condescendingly arrogant, but I doubt he would be so much so as to think himself an equal partner to God Almighty.
-
Like, I know that Marcone is condescendingly arrogant, but I doubt he would be so much so as to think himself an equal partner to God Almighty.
It was not my intention to imply Marcone would view himself as an equal in this hypothetical partnership. Marcone knows his own worth and what he can bring to the table. He would use his unique abilities/outlook to work towards a common goal/outcome as the White God.