Scanning back on it, if the Denarians had been involved, Harry would probably have had to lean more toward Lasciel as his get-out-of-paralysis-free card, and Nicodemus as his new best frenemy rather than Mab, in order to make the whole thing work out. He would have instantly come into conflict with Sanya, as well, over the possession of the Swords, and maybe with Murphy as well. Molly would have had to make a really horrible choice at that point, and probably would have walked out of it even more guilty and more ready to destroy herself after Harry's shooting. She probably would have wound up a Denarian herself.
Wow, that's a dark story. Who would come up with something like that? What's wrong with you?
He chose Mab as the most predictable evil not the least evil but the most reliable one
"Had he gone with Lasciel essentially she would have been his black magic tutor, Bob would've had a huge crush she would've been around him all the time it would've been her keeping him alive in the next book, although it would've been a slightly different book and then he would've been dealing with Nicodemus as a frenemies, on a consistancy basis he still had to deal with them as frenemies in Skin Game anyway so.
It would've been much different he would've had much different temptations Lasciel would've been trying to isolate him from his friends, actively isolating him unlike Mab whose waiting on entropy doing the job for her. It would've been a much harsher story but a lot more sex too.. sales would've been fine.
What roll will Lasciel play in future books?
That's going to be another one of those where I go "Hahaha, I know and you don't" because, you know, it's the whole, I want to provide for my family thing. Were're not done with Lasciel. We might not even be totally done with Lash, but we will have to see how that goes.
2009 Chicago signing:
Q: Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
A: Lasciel’s story is not over. And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’ Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)
2009 Independence signing
Q: Was the voice in Harry’s head at the end of White Night (when he was playing guitar) a sign that Lash is still there?
A: Not really. But Lash’s story isn’t done.
2008 Comic-Con Q&A: @ about 6:11
Q: Does Lasciel's shadow get to heaven because she redeemed herself?
A: The answer to that is so much more complicated than is easy to give, especially without giving out extra story and ruining the fun. No. Lasciel's spirit didn't go to heaven. And now, (sing song) I'm not gona tell you. *mutters about heroin for writers* But it will come out, don't worry the story will be there.
I'll begin with one caveat... you stated that you enjoyed Harry's interactions with Lasciel in the books, those were not Lasciel, those were her shadow that became Lash. He's had one interaction with Lasciel, and that was in the Vault in SG. At least to me, she came across a LOT more arrogant than her shadow ever did.I agree. Lash is not Lasciel. Lash is the coy and inticing seductress to Lasciel's brutal and dominating mistress.
secondly, I don't think we'll see Lash again, her story might go on, through her daughter, but I think that she's gone for good.
The scene with Lash talking about the church and reminiscing about Heaven was beautiful, though.
There is one big advantage to the Coin, though: Harry could have set it aside afterward. Michael would have saved him, I'm certain of it. It's going to be much harder to get out of being the Winter Knight, at least until next Halloween.
Except if Michael was right that setting down the coin means forfeiting his magic too, the whole 'wizard PI' concept for the series is going to be down one wizard.
I think you're off a bit here. My understanding of what Michael said was that the only way to walk away from the shadow of Lasciel was to give up his magic, if Harry had accepted the coin and then given it up to the church, then Lasciel would have left and no shadow would have been left behind. I don't think there would have been any issue with his magic at that point.
Nic has all but confirmed he fights Outsiders.Which all but confirms he doesn't.
And I agree with Anubissama that Mab is not least Evil. Add to the fact that she commands thousands of evil beings. Add to that fact the revelation in Cold Case.That evil is not that different from the evil of most nations who in times of war and desperation conscript their youth and use them as fodder. Mab probably takes better care of her people than the generals and politicians in the first world war did.
Mab is not the lesser evil. Jim calls her the most predictale evil despite the fact that the Fae are notoriously not predictable.Mab is more predictable because she has a purpose. Because she has nature, rules.
Dresden had personal experience with the Denarians and had bested them twice. Their number of evil beings is thirty not thousands plus a couple dozen squires.And yet those thirty do more evil than all Mabs cohorts together. That is because it is their purpose to do evil things.
Dresden also had knowledge of how Lasciel worked through her shadow who turned into Lash.Soulfire and hellfire can not be combined, you have to choose between the two.
I like to believe that with his use of soulfire Harry could have done something similar with Lasciel. or atleast provided some interesting contrast as mentioned above. Soulfire and Hellfire.
Which all but confirms he doesn't.
And yet those thirty do more evil than all Mabs cohorts together. That is because it is their purpose to do evil things. Soulfire and hellfire can not be combined, you have to choose between the two.
Apparently, you are quite okay with calling Mab a "predictable evil" or a lesser evil while her actions include things like: torturing people into insanity for decades, killing sentient feeling beings on the spot for no good reason, abducting babies and turning them into child soldiers. You accept all this because of her purpose fighting Outsiders.So, these are Mab's 'evil' qualities? Her epic level of torture for a traitor who nearly destroyed the balance of the world forever (and arguably could have killed it), murder, and her drafting of young fae to grow up to be soldiers? I mean, she's not a saint or anything - but the Denarians, less evil than Mab?
As far as we know Nic is also against the Outsiders, he seemed genuinely outraged and upset about the fact that a Denari might be nemfected. And just saying I don't believe him isn't argument enough. The whole aquarium scene implies heavily that Nic is aware of the Outsider threat and works against it, be it by cruel means but it seems to be his goal.Well, yes, the Aquarium scene does pretty much state that he's aware of Nemesis and that he works against it. But that's far from saying that Nicodemus' ultimate goal is to stop the Outsiders. He never goes so far. All he really demonstrates is that he recognizes them as another power, similar to the Red Court at the time, which he is shocked and infuriated to learn has infiltrated his ranks.
Furthermore, you can't say "because they oppose the White God they are E evil'. Remember in the Dresdenverse the genocide of the Firstborn of Egypt is a real historical event. So the "good" guys are not above killing children and babies to make a political statement. As such the Angel side doesn't hold the morally superior position any longer, and just being against them doesn't make you automatically E evil.Did you just hold up Mab's contracted drafting of fae children into her army as an evil event, but then hold up an act which emancipated an entire nation of slaves as a Captial E Evil?
Rememebr, history is written by the victor, and if there is anything the church is good at its propaganda. Maybe Lucifer was a proud rebel spitting in the face of a loving father, or maybe he was a freedom fighter trying to save his brethren from tyranny and enslavement and was ready to fight for what he believed to be the right thing, damn the costs.I mean, sure, you can argue whatever you want if you choose to say "Well, what if this thing was evil all along and the good guys are just lying about it?" But in judging Uriel, the Knights, and the Church as portrayed in the Dresden Files thus far, and judging by their actions and the results of them, I think that it would be a pretty big conspiracy theory if the end result of the book series was "Hey, look, the monsters were good all along and it was the good guys who are evil!"
So, these are Mab's 'evil' qualities? Her epic level of torture for a traitor who nearly destroyed the balance of the world forever (and arguably could have killed it), murder, and her drafting of young fae to grow up to be soldiers? I mean, she's not a saint or anything - but the Denarians, less evil than Mab?
Do you remember what Nicodemus' plans were in Death Masks? To take an absolutely horrific plague that killed everyone that caught it in horrible, twisted, torturous ways, and to go to O'Hare Airport and spread it across the nation, and to the rest of the world. To basically have a worldwide pandemic, killing billions in excruciatingly painful, torturous ways, to kickstart the apocalypse. And that was just one of their many twisted plans that they've done through the millenia.
You could certainly argue that his plans in Small Favor weren't so horrible, but that's only because Nicodemus doesn't go out and state what he wants to do with Ivy. It's clear what he can do with Ivy; like start a nuclear holocaust. Or bring some Old Ones back into existence. Granted, the second one isn't probably likely, but the first one is directly in line with his original goals.
Well, yes, the Aquarium scene does pretty much state that he's aware of Nemesis and that he works against it. But that's far from saying that Nicodemus' ultimate goal is to stop the Outsiders. He never goes so far. All he really demonstrates is that he recognizes them as another power, similar to the Red Court at the time, which he is shocked and infuriated to learn has infiltrated his ranks.
Did you just hold up Mab's contracted drafting of fae children into her army as an evil event, but then hold up an act which emancipated an entire nation of slaves as a Captial E Evil?
And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
I just want to say, this is one area in which the Dresden Files' White God doesn't match up with our world's Christian God. I have a feeling that this section of the Dresden Bible might be different, sort of like how Thomas' "Faith, Hope and Love" quotation was so obviously different (beyond a reasonable allowance for paraphrase). TWG and his followers have outright stated time and time again, and demonstrated time and time again, that their greatest priority is the preservation of freedom of choice.QuoteAnd the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.So yee WG is a bit of prick here, not only killing babies but also mind controlling the pharaoh in to not agreeing so that he can torture him some more.
Mab willing tortured a sadistic killer out of revenge for helping to nearly destroy the world.
Nicodemus willing tortured a child whose power could potentially destroy the world.
Nicodemus personally killed his daughter in order to gain an object of power.
Mab made a deal with Harry for power that led to the elimination of a vampire infestation in order to gain an ally.
Furthermore, you can't say "because they oppose the White God they are E evil'. Remember in the Dresdenverse the genocide of the Firstborn of Egypt is a real historical event. So the "good" guys are not above killing children and babies to make a political statement. As such the Angel side doesn't hold the morally superior position any longer, and just being against them doesn't make you automatically E evil.But you can say because they oppose the knights of the cross....
So yee WG is a bit of prick here, not only killing babies but also mind controlling the pharaoh in to not agreeing so that he can torture him some more.
I just want to say, this is one area in which the Dresden Files' White God doesn't match up with our world's Christian God. I have a feeling that this section of the Dresden Bible might be different, sort of like how Thomas' "Faith, Hope and Love" quotation was so obviously different (beyond a reasonable allowance for paraphrase). TWG and his followers have outright stated time and time again, and demonstrated time and time again, that their greatest priority is the preservation of freedom of choice.
I'm not arguing Christian morality or theology, I'm using the Bible in the same way that Harry mentioned the story of Persephone to Hades. Besides, that bit about TWG was just a minor point.
At this point, we know the worst that Mab has done, and we know the reasons why. However, as for Nicodemus we know the worst that he's done - which is far worse then Mab - and you only have some guesses as to the reasons why. The only way in which Nicodemus' actions are not seen as an atrocity would be if he is trying to do some amazing fantastic wonderful thing that saves the entire world. And that is just so much hypothesis.
Besides, I think that an intellectual evil and temptation is far more difficult to contract than an emotional one. If a person is being emotionally tempted, they can usually reason and logic their way out of it. But if I'm being tempted using intelligence, logic, reasoning, by a being a million times more intelligent than I am, how would a person counteract that?
Maybe, possibly, it might be easier to walk away from a coin. But I think that the collateral damage would be far greater.
The party about God hardening Pharaoh's heart is straight out of the real Bible. Exodus 7:3-4 says He would do it. Exodus 9:12 says he did it. Strictly in the context of the Dresdenverse, and not speaking about Christian theology in the real world at all, it is kind of a dick move.I'm well aware that it's in the Bible of this world, maGoh12; I was simply trying to point out that it might be one of the things that are different between TWG of the Dresden Files and the Christian God that real life people believe in. That's why I referred to the "Dresden Bible" - the Bible within the Dresdenverse.
"You can have everything in the world, but if you don't have love, none of it means crap," he said promptly. "Love is patient. Love is kind. Love always forgives, trusts, supports, and endures. Love never fails. When every star in the heavens grows cold, and when silence lies once more on the face of the deep, three things will endure: faith, hope, and love."That bolded part is nowhere within the actual Bible; it talks about prophecies and tongues and wisdom ceasing, but not about apocalypse. So either the Dresdenverse's Bible has a reference to Empty Night right in one of its most poetic passages, or Thomas somehow mis-remembered something that his father drilled into all of their children.
Punishing the father by killing his son is morally wrong whatever the father did but I do not think the Uriel who killed the firstborn is the same as the Uriel who walks around now just like the Odin who demanded human sacrifices is not the same one as he who talked with Harry.
They change because the stories about them change.
And I fully admit if it ever turns out that Nicodemus is doing this just to get personal power I'll admit he is E evil, but from all the hints we have so far it seems more than likely that Nicodemus has an end game goal that fights the Outsiders. Which we also use to justify all that Mab does, so again they are at worst equal.
Oh, power is definitely a means to an end for Nic as well. But the difference between him and Mab is that keeping the Outsiders Out is Mab's overall purpose. I'm confident Nic shares that as an objective, but it's not like if someone were able to use a WMD to kill everything beyond the Gates, does anyone really think he's just going to say "mission accomplished" and retire to take up gardening? He's still going to have his 'saint of hell' game plan to act out.
Nope - at least, as far as Uriel's case. By WOJ, the reason angels are not susceptible to Nemesis is that their nature is absolute. They're not subject to change such as that based on drift in belief the way pagan gods and 'worshipped' Fae (i.e. those in a position like Kringle who mortals believe in, even if not explicitly religious figures).Never saw that one but I remember one about the white god as a mantle and for all we know it had changed hands already.
Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive
Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organization dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher
2. Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story. This is something that people often forget: most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes. Few people wake up and just think, “You know what? I’m going to be a complete monster today.”
Anubissama, I hear you, I really do. But there’s a few things that I want to mention.
1. Fighting the outsiders and wanting them out of our reality isn’t really a morally upright or morally evil thing; it’s just simply survival. Per Word of Jim (and I don’t have the exact reference) this is a battle in which both God and Satan would be on the same side. Pretty much, if you live in the Dresdenverse, and you know about the Outsiders, and you’re not so delusional as to think that you can control *them*, you’re against them.
2. Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story. This is something that people often forget: most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes. Few people wake up and just think, “You know what? I’m going to be a complete monster today.”
To the Fallen, I’m pretty sure it did seem like some sort of act of liberation against a brutal tyrant. And that the Knights and those who serve TWG are nothing more than a vicious military police focused on bringing them to knee in submission. That does not mean that this position is correct, but it means that they've justified their actions and motives. An emotional abuser may lie and manipulate and stalk not because they hate the person, but because they love the person and can't live without them. A freedom fighter may strike a blow against the heart of the Empire that's choking out their way of life, 100% certain that they're doing the right thing, and we remember them as terrorists who hijacked a plane full of innocent civilians to kill thousands more. Feeling that you're in the right does not make you objectively good. Which brings me to my third and final point
3. The end rarely justifies the means. One of the prevailing themes of the Dresden Files is that there’s always a way out; always a choice to be made in which one can still save the day without turning into a monster. If you’ve gone down the left-hand path to the point in which you’re slaughtering innocents without a second thought, it’s long past time to consider that possibly you’re not the hero that you thought that you were. That’s so central to Harry’s struggle against his internal darkness, and therefore central to the Dresden Files itself, that I honestly feel that if you disagree with that you’re probably reading the wrong book.
Good intentions are nice and all, but it’s what a person does that really indicates who they are. You can fairly judge the type of men that the Knights are from the work that they do. And, I believe, you can fairly judge Mab and Nicodemus based off of that as well.
Long story short: If Nicodemus’ solution to stopping the Outsiders from destroying the world is to turn it into a nightmarish hellscape full of death, ruin, and destruction, then I’m not sure that he really saved the world from destruction at all.
Honestly, the whole argument that Mab is the lesser evil doesn't really make sense to me. Let's compare the two:You're forgetting the healing and durability boosts along with the option of more if you start actually drawing on the mantle.
Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive
Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organisation dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher
If you are looking for the best power boost, with the highest chance of retaining yourself, and best odds of surviving and leaving it behind, Denari win out against Mab.
The morality of the white god is not a clear thing in the Dresden verse but if he promotes free will and offers us the choice between good and evil he is both.
But the knights of the cross are not the white god, they are his PR department. They make him look good.
The fallen are designed as their counterparts. They are as close to absolute evil as Michael is to absolute good. It defines their purpose. They are there to give you that other choice.
Both Uriel and the fallen are after your soul. Maybe one should consider other options. Call Odin if drinking and fighting are your thing,
You're forgetting the healing and durability boosts along with the option of more if you start actually drawing on the mantle.Where does te mantle do those things for arry? I've not seen the Mantle actually heal anything nor indication that it makes him more durable than usual, least any more so than a guy on pcp.
Never saw that one but I remember one about the white god as a mantle and for all we know it had changed hands already.
And another one about how they express themselves on earth that changes even if they themselves don't. The drift in belief about the angels and the white god is a historical fact so I assume it is so in the dresdenverse as well.
The one about angels being absolute was recent. I can't place the source right now - it was older than DragonCon, but I think it was one of the Q&A's this year or late last.All myth is true even if it was not true in the past and it is still not true somewhere else. I remember vaguely something about regional differences as well. Something about Harry having a lot to do with angels because he lives in a country with a lot of Christians.
Would you happen to remember where the TWG as a mantle that may have changed hands was from? I had some vague memories of a comment like TWG is the eternal creator of the universe, but wasn't always. I've been trying to find that one again for a while to confirm what exactly was said, but I haven't been able to find it. Somebody else remembering something along those general lines makes me wonder if maybe the Fall was precipitated by the creator mantle changing hands and some of the angels resenting the change in management.
The one about angels being absolute was recent. I can't place the source right now - it was older than DragonCon, but I think it was one of the Q&A's this year or late last.You find that one can you give a link? I personally agree with it but the only corroborating evidence I know of is that MS, who opposite MW is basically the source of creation, is the 2nd one, the first having at one time abdicated. I see this as TWG creator post being abandoned for life as TWC, ability to choose and change. TWG in a human form is a lot of why I supposite that Lucifer, as his polarity, probably did the same.
Would you happen to remember where the TWG as a mantle that may have changed hands was from? I had some vague memories of a comment like TWG is the eternal creator of the universe, but wasn't always. I've been trying to find that one again for a while to confirm what exactly was said, but I haven't been able to find it. Somebody else remembering something along those general lines makes me wonder if maybe the Fall was precipitated by the creator mantle changing hands and some of the angels resenting the change in management.
Where does te mantle do those things for arry? I've not seen the Mantle actually heal anything nor indication that it makes him more durable than usual, least any more so than a guy on pcp.
“Petulance does not become the Winter Knight,” Mab said. She turned to the elevator doors, which had an enormous dent in them the same shape as a wizard’s noggin. They swept open with a groan of protesting metal. “Do this for me, and I shall ensure the safe removal of the parasite when the task is completed.”For most people, your head would break before a an elevator door got dented like that, afaict he didn't even get a concussion.
“I’ll just put a clean shirt over them,” I said. “Look, it isn’t a big deal. Little marks like that are going to be gone in a day or two.”For most people, deep scratches from claws take a fair bit longer than a day or two to heal, it's not super healing but it's noticeably faster than normal.
“Little . . . Winter Knight stuff?”
You find that one can you give a link?
For most people, your head would break before a an elevator door got dented like that, afaict he didn't even get a concussion.Huh, I probably dismissed the elevator thing offhand between what the Mantle did when ace took a bat to his wigglers and the fact he just got a groovy head ache suppressing magical earring, I assume he just didn't feel concussed. The healing thing is interesting though, definitely not his usual wizardly healing factor there.
For most people, deep scratches from claws take a fair bit longer than a day or two to heal, it's not super healing but it's noticeably faster than normal.
The one about angels being absolute was recent. I can't place the source right now - it was older than DragonCon, but I think it was one of the Q&A's this year or late last.
Would you happen to remember where the TWG as a mantle that may have changed hands was from? I had some vague memories of a comment like TWG is the eternal creator of the universe, but wasn't always. I've been trying to find that one again for a while to confirm what exactly was said, but I haven't been able to find it. Somebody else remembering something along those general lines makes me wonder if maybe the Fall was precipitated by the creator mantle changing hands and some of the angels resenting the change in management.
She let out a cold little laugh. "Such arrogance. Do you think you could change the eternal, mortal? I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it. You are nothing, mortal. You are a flickering spark. You will be here, and be gone, and in the aeons that come after, when your very kind have dwindled and perished, you will be but one of uncounted legions of those whom I have seduced and destroyed." Her eyes narrowed. "You. Cannot. Change. Me."
I'm well aware that it's in the Bible of this world, maGoh12; I was simply trying to point out that it might be one of the things that are different between TWG of the Dresden Files and the Christian God that real life people believe in. That's why I referred to the "Dresden Bible" - the Bible within the Dresdenverse.
There's already some evidence that these things don't match up. Thomas paraphrases it in Blood Rites:That bolded part is nowhere within the actual Bible; it talks about prophecies and tongues and wisdom ceasing, but not about apocalypse. So either the Dresdenverse's Bible has a reference to Empty Night right in one of its most poetic passages, or Thomas somehow mis-remembered something that his father drilled into all of their children.
And my plain point was that compromising mortal choice just is completely opposite of what TWG in the Dresden Files stands for. So either the Bibles are different, or it's like Hades and Persephone, in which it's all just a bunch of propoganda. Arguments against TWG's "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" are out of character and just don't hold weight in that reality; they only serve if you're trying to poke at real-world religion. Which is, of course, against the rules.
The difference is that Every time we learn to understand Mab a little bit better we get a better understanding why she is doing what she does and why it is important.Then rapidly turn to dust... He is a couple of thousand years old after all.
Every time we learn to understand Nicodemus and the denarians better we better understand that the best thing Nicodemus can do is drop the coin and get out of it.
Then rapidly turn to dust... He is a couple of thousand years old after all.Probably not that much older than Cassius, time enough to be saved if the dresdenverse follows Christian mythology.
Probably not that much older than Cassius, time enough to be saved if the dresdenverse follows Christian mythology.
I am not so sure that that is true, we do know that Nic has been around from the beginning, but don't remember much evidence that shows that to be true for Cassius. Who knows, just giving up coin and noose as a sacrifice to save another might be enough..Really can't see anyone Nic would ever save though.
Really can't see anyone Nic would ever save though.
Really can't see anyone Nic would ever save though.It is not about anyone else saved by Nic but his own soul. In the end Nicodemus is a victim of the fallen. He is deceived and led into his doom by Anduriel and Anduriel made him kill his daughter to trap him even more. I do not think there is a reasonable chance of saving him now but still the knights try, it is what they do.
hmm I wonder if thats the purpose of the mass killings by the Denarians. So that people in strife and crisis commit evil acts to doom their souls, so that they're sent to Hell where Lucifer and other demons get a power boost.Sorta, it gives bad people a place they genuinely believe they'll go.
...What?And i'm theorizing that purpose is to give a cognitive definition to 'evil' people, an after life for the 'damned'. Most afterlife is to catch things that would otherwise go to nonexistence, empowering the enemy.
I'm talking about the magical, spiritual, emotional, mental and consciousness of a soul being a powerful tool and fuel source for Hell and demons.
Islamic theology and pholosophy believes Lucifer mad a deal with God that he would get ten thousand years to prove humans deserve to go to hell which would be proven by the number of people who go to hell.
Judaism believe Sammael/Lucifer was the Angel of Death and punishes evil doers in the after life or delivers them to heaven. Earliest form of the Reaper myth along with Charon. It was him in the bible that slayed the first born of Egypt.
I'm wondering if in Dresden verse Lucifer is gathering as many condemned souls as he can for some sort of purpose.
Probably not that much older than Cassius, time enough to be saved if the dresdenverse follows Christian mythology.
None of them can be older than about 2,000 years (give or take a few decades), yet we saw one of them collapse into dust pretty much immediately after the aquarium fight in Small Favor. It could be that death accelerated the process, or that the Noose would halt or slow it for Nicodemus. Cassius started aging rapidly, but managed to make it a few years, though I didn't get the feeling that he was that old.
I think the Noose might be a difference maker. He didn't pull a Holy Grail scene from the end of Last Crusade and turn into a desiccated husk when he gave up the coin briefly in Skin Game—but that also could have been a clue that he wasn't really setting it aside.
Honestly, the whole argument that Mab is the lesser evil doesn't really make sense to me. Let's compare the two:
Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive
Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organisation dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher
If you are looking for the best power boost, with the highest chance of retaining yourself, and best odds of surviving and leaving it behind, Denari win out against Mab.
I think Evil actions are in the actions themselves not in an ends justif the means scenario, where oh all of the horrible torture and murder Mab does is because she fights Outsiders. That's the exact same argument Nicodemus uses.The main argument is Mab's purpose. Mab's purpose is to defend reality. She is compared with a body's immune system. Nicodemus is someone who has to be saved from the fallen who are corrupting, guiding and after so many years just controlling him. His purpose is that of the fallen and the fallen are the antithesis of the swords in this case.
How is one evil less evil than the other?
Judge a person by their actions first, their friends second and their enemies third. Mab's actions are torture and murder. Her friends/subjects are torturers and murders. Her enemies in addition to Outsiders include the much more benevolent Summer Court (not saying they're holey good, but certainly better than Winter).
Why is Mab anymore "Good type of Evil" than Nicodemus.
People's main argument is that Lasciel is less predictable than Mab. Personally I disagree. Harry already motivated and moved one supposedly immutable being the Shadow who wasn't supposed to have any choice, why not another?
I'm not saying he would have necessarily succeeded but I think he'd have a better shot with Lasciel then Mab. Mainly because Harry has Uriel on one shoulder who would be a much more direct counter point to Lasciel than Mab.
The main argument is Mab's purpose. Mab's purpose is to defend reality. She is compared with a body's immune system. Nicodemus is someone who has to be saved from the fallen who are corrupting, guiding and after so many years just controlling him. His purpose is that of the fallen and the fallen are the antithesis of the swords in this case.
Nicodemus is at least as evil as Michael is good. That should be answer enough but on top of that Nicodemus is actively interested in harming humans, Mab is not and most of her subjects are not really interested in humans either. Humans are further shielded by a lot of rules and the summer court. She is part of a structure.
Arjan,I think characters in the books are not the only ones who swallow the lies of the fallen even if other evidence is screaming against it, Nicodemus is written that well.
I agree with you. But, in fairness, I think others will say that because we don't know Nicodemus' purpose we can't judge him a fully Evil. Deirdra was willing to die for her Father and claimed they did what they did to "save the world". Nic makes my skin crawl in ways that Mab does not but we do need to know why Nic does what he does before we can truly assess his level of EvilTM
Aside from all this, consider that Nic is still a mortal. He's got a Fallen Angel in his brain, but he's still a guy. That means he's constantly choosing to do the things he does, in my opinion.That is why Michael and Uriel are still trying to save him but the chances are not that good, really. A warden would just cut his head off.
I think characters in the books are not the only ones who swallow the lies of the fallen even if other evidence is screaming against it, Nicodemus is written that well.
Arjan,A lot of what we know is from unreliable narrators so hypothetically a lot is possible. Especially because even if supernatural entities don't change our understanding of them changes anyway. But some things are just extremely unlikely.
I agree with you. But, I have to concede to the other side of this discussion, that their point of view is at least hypothetically possible, until we see Nic's real motivation.