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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on April 23, 2019, 02:32:48 AM
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It seems like some people on this forum believe that Mab is Nfected herself - I have never understood the reasoning behind this theory & was wondering if someone could explain it.
If she were Nfected, why haven’t the Outsiders won already?
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It seems like some people on this forum believe that Mab is Nfected herself - I have never understood the reasoning behind this theory & was wondering if someone could explain it.
If she were Nfected, why haven’t the Outsiders won already?
Possibly because Mab is resisting the Nfection.
I don't really see "Mab is Infected" as a particularly likely direction for the plot to go, given that we've already seen "faerie queen is Nfected" twice, but I've proposed that she is fighting off Nfection, and that at some point she will not be able to do so any longer, causing her to suicide and cause all sorts of problems. I think it's pretty clear that Mab has to die at some point in the books, and I think her killing herself to prevent the Outsiders getting her is more interesting than the Outsiders and/or their allies succeeding in killing her.
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See also this recent thread:
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php?topic=53033.0
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I’m still not getting how we’ve gotten to Mab is fighting an Nfection - her actions from PG onward seem to be effective against Nemesis at every turn, & I don’t sense any conflict in her about this. Rather, her biggest conflict from books 7-14 was how to deal with the Nfection in Maeve. I thought there was a tragic symmetry in her being able to save Lea, one of her best “friends” but not Maeve, her own daughter.
While I do believe that there is some credence to the theories that Lea is not completely healed yet, I am yet to see any evidence that Mab is Nfected or fighting off an Nfection personally.
If she suspected that Lea had been Nfected (which she obviously did), why would she handle the athame so carelessly? After all, it’s an object of such power that Amoracchius is considered a replacement.
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I’m still not getting how we’ve gotten to Mab is fighting an Nfection - her actions from PG onward seem to be effective against Nemesis at every turn, & I don’t sense any conflict in her - her biggest conflict from books 7-14 were how to deal with the Nfection in Maeve. I thought there was a tragic symmetry in her being able to save Lea, one of her best “friends” but not Maeve, her own daughter.
While I do believe that there is some credence to the theories that Lea is not completely healed yet, I am yet to see any evidence that Mab is Nfection or fighting off an Nfection personally.
If she suspected that Lea had been Nfected (which she obviously did), why would she handle the athame so carelessly? After all, it’s an object of such power that Amoracchius is considered a replacement.
Personally, I think that if Mab is Nfected (which I'm not sure about) then it comes from imprisoning Lea in Winter's Wellspring. Winter's Wellspring would seem to be the heart of Mab's power, so it makes sense to me that, along with allowing her to cure Lea, having a Nemesis agent literally in the heart of her power would put her at some risk for Nfection.
Obviously, Mab would not have attempted to cure Lea if she thought that it would result in being Nfected herself, but she may have underestimated Nemesis.
If Mab is Nfected, she's obviously fighting it effectively for the moment, but that probably won't last. I tend to think of Nfection as something like tuberculosis, in that it can/will go dormant when the host is strong, only to emerge when the host weakens. If this is the case and Mab is indeed Nfected, then as things get worse (as they must, given that we have an apocalyptic trilogy coming up) Mab will become vulnerable and Nemesis will strike.
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Hmm if the Winter Wellspring were poisoned, wouldn’t Mother Winter be affected too?
If Mab were Nfected, why would Nfected Maeve try to replace her? It would be much easier & less risky to simply help the Outsider overwhelm Mab’s defenses than to kill one of the most powerful immortals on the planet.
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Hmm if the Winter Wellspring were poisoned, wouldn’t Mother Winter be affected too?
If Mab can fight off Nfection for several years, I doubt that it could get close to actually affecting Mother Winter, even if she is technically Nfected.
If Mab were Nfected, why would Nfected Maeve try to replace her? It would be much easier & less risky to simply help the Outsider overwhelm Mab’s defenses than to kill one of the most powerful immortals on the planet.
The reason Maeve is working with Nemesis is specifically to beat her mother--that's her motivation, not helping Outsiders. The Outsider thing is just a means to an end.
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I’m still not getting how we’ve gotten to Mab is fighting an Nfection - . . .
I am yet to see any evidence that Mab is Nfected or fighting off an Nfection personally.
It's classic misdirection. Suggest Mab might be Nfected then present evidence that it is actually other people who are Nfected (specifically the people accusing Mab), so that the readers will be surprised when they learn Mab actually was Nfected.
Mab isn't being controlled by Nemesis or working with Nemesis, but the text is consistent with her being tainted by Nemesis in a similar way that Harry was tainted when he touched Lasciel's coin but refused to pick it up and buried it instead.
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@ Cozarkian
That is interesting - in what way is Mab being shown behaving in a similar way as Harry was when he carried Lash? Also remember that the Mantles “talk” to their wearers - Harry certainly has to reason with Winter Knight mantle when he makes big decisions.
@nadia
I’m not so sure that that is the reason why Maeve seemed to be collaborating with Nemesis. As the Lady, Maeve spent a lot of time around mortals & changelings - this would affect the way she saw the world per Mother Summer. I believe that Maeve wanted free will & not to be bound by the laws of Winter as the Lady is - note that Molly says Maeve has been neglecting her duties for ~150 years - long before she was Nfected. I think her hatred for Mab arose from the fact that she & her mother wanted different things for her future. Maeve liked power, so she could never make the bargain that Sarissa had, & I doubt the Lady mantle can be cast off very easily.
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It seems like some people on this forum believe that Mab is Nfected herself - I have never understood the reasoning behind this theory & was wondering if someone could explain it.
If she were Nfected, why haven’t the Outsiders won already?
I'm not sure she is, but the theory is reasonable. The reason the Outsiders wouldn't have already won would be because of the individual Infected. Mab is incredibly powerful, and absolute in her attitude. It's reasonable to assume that Nemesis might take a long time to work it's way past Mab's defenses.
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I'm not sure she is, but the theory is reasonable. The reason the Outsiders wouldn't have already won would be because of the individual Infected. Mab is incredibly powerful, and absolute in her attitude. It's reasonable to assume that Nemesis might take a long time to work it's way past Mab's defenses.
Reasonable, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. I would say it's reaching.
To me the whole plot of Cold Days was 'is Mab mad? Or is Maeve?' (a question which had been teased since at least Proven Guilty) and the answer was clearly Maeve, and by implication clearly not Mab (since she drove the attempt to take out Maeve, and her plotting before that point was all about revenge for being sidelined by Nemesis and its allies from Summer Knight on).
And Skin Game was a now-restored Winter striking back for slights offered during its weakened phase when second-in-command-Lea, Knight and Lady were all compromised.
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Reasonable, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. I would say it's reaching.
To me the whole plot of Cold Days was 'is Mab mad? Or is Maeve?' (a question which had been teased since at least Proven Guilty) and the answer was clearly Maeve, and by implication clearly not Mab (since she drove the attempt to take out Maeve, and her plotting before that point was all about revenge for being sidelined by Nemesis and its allies from Summer Knight on).
And Skin Game was a now-restored Winter striking back for slights offered during its weakened phase when second-in-command-Lea, Knight and Lady were all compromised.
To me the question of whether Mab is mad in Cold Days was a side show circus that added nothing to the story. There has been nothing since PG that leads any credence to the theory Mab was mad and in CD it was made apparent before Mab even asked Harry to kill Maeve that Maeve was the villian of the story. On its face it was used as a reason for Harry to go talk to the other Fae and Rashid, but it would have made sense for him to do that anyway just investigating Maeve and what was going on with Demonreach. Thus, the only real value that particular plot had for JB was to definitively show Mab is not infected - which doesn't make sense given how little evidence there is that she was infected, unless, of course, she is actually infected and the purpose of the plotline was to deceive the reader into believing she isn't.
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To me the question of whether Mab is mad in Cold Days was a side show circus that added nothing to the story. There has been nothing since PG that leads any credence to the theory Mab was mad and in CD it was made apparent before Mab even asked Harry to kill Maeve that Maeve was the villian of the story. On its face it was used as a reason for Harry to go talk to the other Fae and Rashid, but it would have made sense for him to do that anyway just investigating Maeve and what was going on with Demonreach. Thus, the only real value that particular plot had for JB was to definitively show Mab is not infected - which doesn't make sense given how little evidence there is that she was infected, unless, of course, she is actually infected and the purpose of the plotline was to deceive the reader into believing she isn't.
I don't agree that it added nothing to the story at all: it was a theory that clearly originated from Maeve, and demonstrates an action that Maeve is taking to undermine Mab. Its place in the story isn't a random worry: it's deliberate malfeasance on the part of an enemy.
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We also have WoJ that Mab considers the defense of the Outer Gates to be the most important thing in her life. I believe Jim says that Mab would sacrifice herself, every human & Fae if she thought it would win her the war against the Outsiders. In Cold Days, she kills her daughter because she stands in the way of that goal.
If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself immediately, whether or not Molly is fit to be Queen. I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know, but as others have pointed out, what would be the point of that? It’s been played out
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If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself immediately, whether or not Molly is fit to be Queen. I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know, but as others have pointed out, what would be the point of that? It’s been played out
I think she'd weigh the risks. If she were certain that she could hold out for, for example, 5 years, then I'd think she'd stick around for 4 to make sure things transitioned well and that she'd wrapped up any unfinished business that might cause trouble for her successor (like paying off old debts to inconvenient people).
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We also have WoJ that Mab considers the defense of the Outer Gates to be the most important thing in her life. I believe Jim says that Mab would sacrifice herself, every human & Fae if she thought it would win her the war against the Outsiders. In Cold Days, she kills her daughter because she stands in the way of that goal.
If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself immediately, whether or not Molly is fit to be Queen. I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know, but as others have pointed out, what would be the point of that? It’s been played out
Well, no. Murphy kills her daughter. Had Mab zapped her when she was called, Molly never would have become the Winter Lady, Sarissa would have. Mab couldn't, this is explicit in the text.
However that doesn't make Mab infected. She more than anybody has reason to fear just that and has an ally whose express purpose is to prevent just that kind of problem. The Gatekeeper.
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I think she'd weigh the risks. If she were certain that she could hold out for, for example, 5 years, then I'd think she'd stick around for 4 to make sure things transitioned well and that she'd wrapped up any unfinished business that might cause trouble for her successor (like paying off old debts to inconvenient people).
Would she really be able to quantify the length of time she could hold out? Like the Senior Council going through every little decision they’d made over the last few years after finding out that Peabody has been drugging the ink (perhaps a series of subtle, gentle nudges into making decisions advantageous to the Black council instead of the WC), I don’t think Mab would be able to trust herself if she knew she were Nfected.
Well, no. Murphy kills her daughter. Had Mab zapped her when she was called, Molly never would have become the Winter Lady, Sarissa would have. Mab couldn't, this is explicit in the text.
However that doesn't make Mab infected. She more than anybody has reason to fear just that and has an ally whose express purpose is to prevent just that kind of problem. The Gatekeeper.
Good point about the Gatekeeper & his good relations with Mab. Although I disagree about the Murphy bit - Mab expressly orders Harry to kill Maeve - just because she couldn’t bring herself to do it doesn’t mean she didn’t arrange for it to happen. While Murphy pulls the trigger, it is Mab who breaks the ice enough for the former to break free & shoot Maeve.
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Would she really be able to quantify the length of time she could hold out? Like the Senior Council going through every little decision they’d made over the last few years after finding out that Peabody has been drugging the ink (perhaps a series of subtle, gentle nudges into making decisions advantageous to the Black council instead of the WC), I don’t think Mab would be able to trust herself if she knew she were Nfected.
I think it's a somewhat different situation. The Senior Council didn't know what was happening until after the fact, and therefore had no chance to defend against it. If Mab knew that she was Nfected from the time it happened, I believe that between her and the Gatekeeper she could put up shields around the part of Nemesis in her, and between her and the Gatekeeper they could tell when and at what rate they were eroding.
It's not quite the same situation, but Harry managed to put up shields to mostly block out Lasciel's shadow that held for a time, and the power differential between Harry and Lasciel is slanted way more against Harry than the power differential between Mab and Nemesis.
For that matter, having both other queens of winter Nfected seems like the kind of thing that would let Mother Winter interfere at least obliquely, so she might have given Mab/arranged for Mab to get a shield that would last X amount of time and told her that she had to handle the Maeve problem before then.
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I don't agree that it added nothing to the story at all: it was a theory that clearly originated from Maeve, and demonstrates an action that Maeve is taking to undermine Mab. Its place in the story isn't a random worry: it's deliberate malfeasance on the part of an enemy.
Plausible v. necessary. It is a plausible story line for Maeve to accuse Mab and for Harry to investigate, but it wasn't necessary as a plot device to drive Harry's actions in CD. It may just be filler story for entertainment purposes, but it may also have been misdirection.
We also have WoJ that Mab considers the defense of the Outer Gates to be the most important thing in her life. I believe Jim says that Mab would sacrifice herself, every human & Fae if she thought it would win her the war against the Outsiders. In Cold Days, she kills her daughter because she stands in the way of that goal.
If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself immediately, whether or not Molly is fit to be Queen. I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know, but as others have pointed out, what would be the point of that? It’s been played out
I disagree 100%. If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself when the risk that Nemesis would be able to corrupt her exceeds the risk that Molly's inexperience would lead to a serious blunder. Mab probably knows to the day, hour, minute and second how long she can withstand Nemesis and she won't act to remove herself earlier than necessary.
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I disagree 100%. If Mab knew she were Nfected, she would remove herself when the risk that Nemesis would be able to corrupt her exceeds the risk that Molly's inexperience would lead to a serious blunder. Mab probably knows to the day, hour, minute and second how long she can withstand Nemesis and she won't act to remove herself earlier than necessary.
This. Rashid even mentions in Cold Days that a reorganization at the Outer Gates, such as that caused by Mab's death, would be a serious problem at present.
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Would she really be able to quantify the length of time she could hold out? Like the Senior Council going through every little decision they’d made over the last few years after finding out that Peabody has been drugging the ink (perhaps a series of subtle, gentle nudges into making decisions advantageous to the Black council instead of the WC), I don’t think Mab would be able to trust herself if she knew she were Nfected.
Good point about the Gatekeeper & his good relations with Mab. Although I disagree about the Murphy bit - Mab expressly orders Harry to kill Maeve - just because she couldn’t bring herself to do it doesn’t mean she didn’t arrange for it to happen. While Murphy pulls the trigger, it is Mab who breaks the ice enough for the former to break free & shoot Maeve.
Yes, but the point was had she taken direct action rather than pawning it off on subordinates things would have turned out better. So much for Mab as a rationalist.Plausible v. necessary. It is a plausible story line for Maeve to accuse Mab and for Harry to investigate, but it wasn't necessary as a plot device to drive Harry's actions in CD. It may just be filler story for entertainment purposes, but it may also have been misdirection.
It hits the notes it needs to hit to supply motivation to see the Mother's and Titania and to learn the nature of the Outer Gates. Jim evidently had a list and he hit all the items on it to set up the new plot line. The difference is between Maeve the Wicked Winter Faerie and Maeve the instrument of the Adversary.
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If Mab was able to "cure" Lea of Nemesis infection, why wouldn't Mother Winter be able to "cure" Mab? Between Mab and Mother Winter, the process shouldn't take overly long (at least not as long as it did for Lea), so... what? I mean, if she were infected, I doubt it happened any later than Small Favor, when we see her using a malk as a mouthpiece for the first time.
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If Mab was able to "cure" Lea of Nemesis infection, why wouldn't Mother Winter be able to "cure" Mab? Between Mab and Mother Winter, the process shouldn't take overly long (at least not as long as it did for Lea), so... what? I mean, if she were infected, I doubt it happened any later than Small Favor, when we see her using a malk as a mouthpiece for the first time.
Good thought, but there could be a few explanations.
1. Leah was absent from DM, BR and DB and not done healing as of PG. That's a period of 4 years. Even if Mother Winter could heal Mab in half the time (and I don't see any reason why it would take less time), 2 years is a very long time to not have Winter.
2. It's possible that in order to cure Leah, Mab had to take the Nemfection into herself, which is how Mab became Nemfected. It's possible that the role of the Queen makes it appropriate for Mab to take that burden on herself (in exchange for getting Harry's obligation) while the role of Mother Winter makes it inappropriate for her to take the burden from Mab. It would also explain why Mab couldn't cure Maeve (she couldn't take the Nemfection when she was already infected).
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Good thought, but there could be a few explanations.
1. Leah was absent from DM, BR and DB and not done healing as of PG. That's a period of 4 years. Even if Mother Winter could heal Mab in half the time (and I don't see any reason why it would take less time), 2 years is a very long time to not have Winter.
2. It's possible that in order to cure Leah, Mab had to take the Nemfection into herself, which is how Mab became Nemfected. It's possible that the role of the Queen makes it appropriate for Mab to take that burden on herself (in exchange for getting Harry's obligation) while the role of Mother Winter makes it inappropriate for her to take the burden from Mab. It would also explain why Mab couldn't cure Maeve (she couldn't take the Nemfection when she was already infected).
I thought Maeve being uncurable was explained in the books as 'Maeve has to WANT to be cured' - which she did not, while Lea did want to be cured.
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That's the obvious explanation, but I don't think it was spelled out in the book. If I recall, Man simply said by the time she learned of Maeve's condition it was too late.
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That's the obvious explanation, but I don't think it was spelled out in the book. If I recall, Man simply said by the time she learned of Maeve's condition it was too late.
I'm pretty sure that it was said, but not by anyone who couldn't plausibly be wrong. After all, Mab would hardly want to advertise the true cost of curing someone of Nfection if it required Nfecting her.
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That's the obvious explanation, but I don't think it was spelled out in the book. If I recall, Man simply said by the time she learned of Maeve's condition it was too late.
In Cold Days, on Demonreach, Sarissa begs Maeve to get help with the infection as Lea did. Sarissa tells her that Mab's power alone isn't enough to heal her, that she must want to be healed. In the aftermath, when it's over, Mab tells Harry that by the time she found that Lea had been infected, that Lea had already passed the infection to Maeve.
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1. Leah was absent from DM, BR and DB and not done healing as of PG. That's a period of 4 years. Even if Mother Winter could heal Mab in half the time (and I don't see any reason why it would take less time), 2 years is a very long time to not have Winter.
That's really what I meant about pointing out Small Favor as the latest timing; it was before the Outsiders began their press against the Gates, and there should have been enough time to do it. Mother Winter or Lea (assuming she's cured around Small Favor; I get the feeling she is, at least by the time between books) or both could have maintained order long enough. And if Mab is as good at suppressing Nemesis as she'd have to be in order to behave as composed as she has been, I seriously doubt it would take years to address the problem. Mother Winter was able to make the Unraveling, which can undo any enchantment. Between Mab pinning Nemesis down within herself and Mother Winter targeting it, I don't see how Nemesis would stand a chance for long at all. The timeline would be more like months rather than years, I'd expect.
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Mother Winter or Lea (assuming she's cured around Small Favor; I get the feeling she is, at least by the time between books) or both could have maintained order long enough.
Mother Winter probably has rules that prevent her from interfering in Mab's domain (actually, we know she does because neither she nor Mother Summer could interfere to stop the war and explain things in Summer Knight). And I'm not convinced that Lea was cured until after Turn Coat.
Mother Winter was able to make the Unraveling, which can undo any enchantment. Between Mab pinning Nemesis down within herself and Mother Winter targeting it, I don't see how Nemesis would stand a chance for long at all. The timeline would be more like months rather than years, I'd expect.
If it was that simple, then Winter should be able to win the War against Outsiders easily.
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Lea is known to be first restrained in Dead Beat, at which point Mab shows up when Lea is summoned by Harry. She has the Athema. By Small Favor Mab knows that Maeve was infected by Lea, it's why she quits speaking. We next see Lea in Changes, at which point she tells Harry she can't think about the infection unless she become vulnerable to it again, implying that it is more like a drug addiction rather than a pure possession. Small Favor is the low point in the Winter time line, when she has been stripped of all of her most powerful allies. Lea, the Winter Knight, and her daughter Maeve.
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I still don’t think we see even circumstantial evidence that Mab has been Nfected. The only strange thing I can think that she does is to temporarily stop being able to modulate her voice for human consumption (& she does a lot of strange things).
My original point of if Mab is Nfected (even if she is able to contain it), why haven’t the Outsiders won still stands. If Fallen:Host is analogous to Nfection:Host, & Harry’s containment of Lash is the model we are using to describe how Mab is containing the Adversary, then Cold Days would have played out very differently.
In SmF, Nic commands Lash to paralyze Harry so he can kidnap the latter. Lash actually paralyzes Harry on her own in PG when he tries to use Little Chicago when she knows it’s not ready yet (showing that at least for short periods of time, the Fallen can overwhelm their host). In CD, we see that Nemesis is able to disable Cat Sith enough to simply take over (and Cat Sith is a very powerful Fae trying to fight it).
So why does Nfected Maeve need Harry to kill Mab? Nemesis can simply paralyze Mab for a few minutes while Maeve or her retainers kill Mab.
If Mab is too powerful for Nemesis to gain control for even a few seconds, I don’t see how it is much of a threat to Mab at all.
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My original point of if Mab is Nfected (even if she is able to contain it), why haven’t the Outsiders won still stands. If Fallen:Host is analogous to Nfection:Host, & Harry’s containment of Lash is the model we are using to describe how Mab is containing the Adversary, then Cold Days would have played out very differently.
In SmF, Nic commands Lash to paralyze Harry so he can kidnap the latter. Lash actually paralyzes Harry on her own in PG when he tries to use Little Chicago when she knows it’s not ready yet (showing that at least for short periods of time, the Fallen can overwhelm their host). In CD, we see that Nemesis is able to disable Cat Sith enough to simply take over (and Cat Sith is a very powerful Fae trying to fight it).
So why does Nfected Maeve need Harry to kill Mab? Nemesis can simply paralyze Mab for a few minutes while Maeve or her retainers kill Mab.
First, I'm not convinced either that Lasciel's shadow could legitimately paralyze Harry or that Nemesis could paralyze Mab. We've seen Lasciel's shadow try to prevent Harry from acting in Proven Guilty, when she tried to stop him from using Little Chicago. And while she did manage to interfere with his effectiveness quite a lot, she did it not by paralyzing him, but by forcing the illusion of pain on him, which he could not fight off while also performing a complicated and dangerous ritual. Furthermore, Harry pointed out that he was perfectly capable of going through the ritual anyway, he would just be less effective, which would result in it blowing up in Harry's face. It would have been much more effective for Lasciel's shadow to paralyze him, if indeed she was capable of doing so.
I believe that the only way Lasciel's shadow could paralyze Harry would be to create an illusion cutting him off from all his senses, including prioproception. That would, indeed, likely have the effect of paralyzing him, but he could break through it easily by invoking the Sight. As for why Nic thought that this would work, I suspect he's just not used to dealing with wizards. The magic-users that he works with seem mostly to be sorcerer-level, and even Tessa probably only became as strong/skilled as she is over centuries or millennia. As such, he probably isn't used to accounting for things like the Sight, since most, if not all, of the magic-users he works with do not use it (I'm not convinced that either Tessa or Thorned Namshiel use the Sight--Tessa because she can probably rely on her Fallen for that kind of thing, and Thorned Namshiel because based on his name the Fallen is in full control there).
To summarize, I believe that Lasciel's shadow cannot simply paralyze Harry, only make him briefly less effective (if she tried it long-term, I believe Harry could block her out, as he has shown that he can do). I believe the same thing applies to Nemesis and Mab. And what do you know, Mab has seemed marginally less effective than I would expect from her. She covers it well, but things like only getting her revenge on the Red Court through something she could not possibly have anticipated and not teaching Harry magic that would make him more effective at carrying out her will (even though she offered to do just that) make me think that something is going on with her, although whether it's fighting Nfection or just being really super busy is up for debate.
Second, Nfected Maeve could have several reasons to try to get Harry to kill an Nfected Mab. One is that turning Mab's own weapon against her would be beating her at her own game, which is what Maeve explicitly is trying to do. Second is that if Harry weakens Mab in his attempt to kill her, it could give Nemesis a stronger hold. Third is that Harry attacking Mab would make it harder for Mab to interfere in her enemies' plans until she's dealt with the problem. Fourth is that convincing Harry to kill Mab would also convince Harry not to kill Maeve. Fifth is that Maeve is making this attempt in front of Lily, so she needs to keep up the charade of "Mab is Nfected and untrustworthy" since this appears to me to be one of the reasons why Lily is working with her. Sixth is that Harry is the Warden of Demonreach, so either getting him killed by convincing him to attack Mab or even just keeping him busy trying to figure out if it is necessary, and if so how to do it, would prevent or limit his ability to interfere with Maeve's plan to blow up his island.
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@nadia
So let’s say you’re right & Lash couldn’t paralyze Harry but could only incapacitate him for a few moments and/or make him significantly less effective in the short-term. Wouldn’t this be just the opening Maeve needs to take out Mab? Maeve & her retainers (or she could call in the Walkers to help) are powerful enough that a temporarily weakened Mab is all they need to remove her (like a few minutes). Killing Mab would put Nfected Maeve on the throne, giving Nemesis exactly what it wants regardless of the other advantages you’ve listed.
Also remember how the Nfection deals with Cat Sith - it takes him out in seconds. Remember Rasmussen from DM who had been enslaved by his Fallen. Just because it didn’t work on Harry doesn’t mean Harry/Lash is an accurate model here - in fact JB goes out of his way to show how unusual the Harry/Lash situation is. As an immortal without much in the way of free-will, I’m not sure how well Mab would be able to oppose Nemesis.
Regarding Mab
Perhaps she is less effective from books 4-14 because she is operating without a Winter Knight (meaning her main tool for meddling in the mortal world is nonexistent) & without her top 2 lieutenants - Lea & Maeve. It also didn’t help that Nemesis’ latest salvo came from an angle she didn’t see - Aurora. That caused a massive chain reaction on the Summer side as well, leaving the Courts out of balance (Lily should never have become Lady).
However by the end of those 10 years, she got a Starborn as Winter Knight, healed Lea & replaced her old, neglecting her duties for 150 years Lady with one who is very capable instead. On the Summer side, Titania has calmed down somewhat, Fix has been trained to become an effective Knight & Sarissa (who has the right training) becomes Lady.
All the beings/ powers that screwed with her or her Accords have gotten a major reckoning - the Reds were obliterated in a battle that was fought by her Knight, Lady & #2 (even though Molly didn’t do much, the outside world will not see it as such). The Denarians who screwed with her have been left ruined or destroyed. It does not matter how much of this was explicitly planned by Mab - it happened because of how she had well she had prepared her resources/ allies/ forces (explained in her chess metaphor to Harry at the end of CD).
Regarding Nic
I don’t think that the Sight is restricted to those with White Council ability - I mean I’m not sure if Beckitt or Anna Ashe were able to use it, but I’m sure people at Snakeboy’s level are.
Nic could also have been wrong about Lash being able to paralyze Harry because he is a Starborn - he has an unusually strong sense of self & is stubborn to point of mule-headedness (Soulfire). We don’t know if that was wrong though since Lash had died - remember that no one knows of a mortal who has been able to resist a Shadow for as long as Harry did.
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So let’s say you’re right & Lash couldn’t paralyze Harry but could only incapacitate him for a few moments and/or make him significantly less effective in the short-term. Wouldn’t this be just the opening Maeve needs to take out Mab? Maeve & her retainers (or she could call in the Walkers to help) are powerful enough that a temporarily weakened Mab is all they need to remove her (like a few minutes). Killing Mab would put Nfected Maeve on the throne, giving Nemesis exactly what it wants regardless of the other advantages you’ve listed.
It depends on how weakened she was. Mab is stronger than Maeve by an order of magnitude--if Maeve is power level 10 then Mab is power level 100. Even if Nemesis can cut Mab's strength in half, she's still way stronger than Maeve. And even if Maeve's allies can make up the difference, Mab can call on all of Winter given half a chance, and unless Nemesis can suppress something on the order of 90% of Mab's power, she's going to get that chance.
Mind you, this might be plan B, or plan C, D, or E, but it makes much more sense for plan A to be: let's throw someone we already want dead at Mab.
Also remember how the Nfection deals with Cat Sith - it takes him out in seconds. Remember Rasmussen from DM who had been enslaved by his Fallen. Just because it didn’t work on Harry doesn’t mean Harry/Lash is an accurate model here - in fact JB goes out of his way to show how unusual the Harry/Lash situation is. As an immortal without much in the way of free-will, I’m not sure how well Mab would be able to oppose Nemesis.
Clearly Nemesis can be opposed by non-free willed beings, because Lea did so. And Mab seems to be strong-willed enough to be the Sidhe equivalent of Harry in that department. We don't know how from people he doesn't like (as opposed to maliciously subverting them on general principle). He may do things like bring Harry a warm coke, but he doesn't do things like delivering the coke via dumping it on Harry's head. This doesn't mean he isn't strong-willed--Harry will (usually) obey orders from the White Council, even if he doesn't like them much--but it's not a point in favor of him being particularly Nemesis-resistant, either. Mab, on the other hand, is Mab. That is to say, even when compromise would be useful to her, she doesn't use it. She does things like challenge Harry to fight her on Demonreach and slam his head into an elevator wall, even though Harry would be much more cooperative if she refrained from doing so and explained things, even if that explanation was just "I know I can't force you to act against your principles, and I'm not trying," rather than anything concrete. This, I feel, demonstrates the kind of stubbornness that would seem necessary to fighting off something like Nemesis.
Also note that I'm not claiming that Mab has had to fight off Nemesis for years alone--only long enough for someone like Mother Winter to give her some help with that.
Perhaps she is less effective from books 4-14 because she is operating without a Winter Knight (meaning her main tool for meddling in the mortal world is nonexistent) & without her top 2 lieutenants - Lea & Maeve. It also didn’t help that Nemesis’ latest salvo came from an angle she didn’t see - Aurora. That caused a massive chain reaction on the Summer side as well, leaving the Courts out of balance (Lily should never have become Lady).
However by the end of those 10 years, she got a Starborn as Winter Knight, healed Lea & replaced her old, neglecting her duties for 150 years Lady with one who is very capable instead. On the Summer side, Titania has calmed down somewhat, Fix has been trained to become an effective Knight & Sarissa (who has the right training) becomes Lady.
All the beings/ powers that screwed with her or her Accords have gotten a major reckoning - the Reds were obliterated in a battle that was fought by her Knight, Lady & #2 (even though Molly didn’t do much, the outside world will not see it as such). The Denarians who screwed with her have been left ruined or destroyed. It does not matter how much of this was explicitly planned by Mab - it happened because of how she had well she had prepared her resources/ allies/ forces (explained in her chess metaphor to Harry at the end of CD).
I just feel like Mab has been using too much gambit roulette and not enough batman gambits, which would seem more her style. There could be many reasons for this, and one of them is Nemesis.
In particular, her handling of Harry is...odd. She probably couldn't ever get Harry to like her, but the way she handles him seems to actively encourage him to want her dead. So...either Mab is slipping, possibly from Nfection; or she wants Harry to kill her, probably because she's Nfected; or she's massively misreading Harry, probably by expecting him to be rational enough not to kill her no matter how much he wants to, which is a possibility.
I don’t think that the Sight is restricted to those with White Council ability - I mean I’m not sure if Beckitt or Anna Ashe were able to use it, but I’m sure people at Snakeboy’s level are.
The RPG says that it's a wizard-power, not a sorcerer one. It's unclear whether Denarian sorcerers would have it--on the one hand, the Fallen offer far more training than sorcerers usually get, but on the other, I feel like the Fallen could do something similar for their hosts rather than teaching them, and they have reason to want their hosts to remain dependent on them.
I think that none of the Denarians have the Sight, because if they did then they would have used it to see through Ivy's veil at the Shedd, and they manifestly didn't do so.
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@nadia
I don’t think Maeve actually thought that the plan to get Harry to off Mab was actually going to work. Mab recruited Harry & as Sarissa says, Mab has something on everybody (Harry’s broken back). Not to mention that Mab has been extremely interested in Harry for around a decade & has been actively steering him into fights he needs to fight. Maeve’s interactions with Harry have always been pointlessly unpleasant. Harry probably dislikes Maeve more than he does Mab since he at least respects the latter. I think Maeve says it to confuse Harry for long enough for her to attack Demonreach.
Was Lea really able to fight it off? All we know is that Mab was able to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt to her & imprison her. Once she was imprisoned, she was able to resist. I don’t recall any evidence that Lea voluntarily went to Mab & asked her for help.
I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.
Her behavior towards Harry is geared toward getting him used to accepting her orders in a crude & intelligent way - the way Harry operates. She is also an absolute monarch & wants to remind Harry that is hers now. As she reminds him at the end of CD when he is furiously asking questions about her actions. “I am not YOUR Knight, you are MINE”. She is old thousand-plus years old, so her ideas of how her retinue should behave & be punished are somewhat archaic.
I don’t think she is misreading Harry at all. Harry has preconceived notions that Mab is wicked. Over time, as he gets more intertwined in her plans, he begins to respect her. Because of what she is (Fae), he can never trust her - Lea burned him too badly for that (on purpose perhaps?). Instead, she deals with him the way one does with an intelligent blunt instrument - crudely & without micromanagement. No one else in the books is able to consistently use/ manipulate Harry to achieve their own purposes as much as Mab.
You’re probably right about the Sight thing as I have never played the RPG. Although I’m pretty certain Ivy could veil herself even from the Sight - I’m sure Tessa would’ve been using her’s while looking for her in the Aquarium.
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I don’t think Maeve actually thought that the plan to get Harry to off Mab was actually going to work. Mab recruited Harry & as Sarissa says, Mab has something on everybody (Harry’s broken back). Not to mention that Mab has been extremely interested in Harry for around a decade & has been actively steering him into fights he needs to fight. Maeve’s interactions with Harry have always been pointlessly unpleasant. Harry probably dislikes Maeve more than he does Mab since he at least respects the latter. I think Maeve says it to confuse Harry for long enough for her to attack Demonreach.
Fair enough.
Was Lea really able to fight it off? All we know is that Mab was able to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt to her & imprison her. Once she was imprisoned, she was able to resist. I don’t recall any evidence that Lea voluntarily went to Mab & asked her for help.
I tend to think she could. She was certainly still helping Harry to stop Aurora after she got the Athame, and in Changes she said that shame drove her to seek her queen's aid, which certainly sounds like she asked Mab for help.
I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.
Oh, I don't think she's as strong-willed as Harry. She could never do something like turning Nemesis to her side. But I do think she's in the same league as Harry, and that she could hold onto control long enough to bring the problem to Rashid or Mother Winter's attention, at which point they help her lock Nemesis away inside her mind.
Her behavior towards Harry is geared toward getting him used to accepting her orders in a crude & intelligent way - the way Harry operates. She is also an absolute monarch & wants to remind Harry that is hers now. As she reminds him at the end of CD when he is furiously asking questions about her actions. “I am not YOUR Knight, you are MINE”. She is old thousand-plus years old, so her ideas of how her retinue should behave & be punished are somewhat archaic.
I don’t think she is misreading Harry at all. Harry has preconceived notions that Mab is wicked. Over time, as he gets more intertwined in her plans, he begins to respect her. Because of what she is (Fae), he can never trust her - Lea burned him too badly for that (on purpose perhaps?). Instead, she deals with him the way one does with an intelligent blunt instrument - crudely & without micromanagement. No one else in the books is able to consistently use/ manipulate Harry to achieve their own purposes as much as Mab.
I guess I just expect her to be a better manipulator than she's shown herself to be with Harry. I mean, if I were Mab, here's what I would do:
1) I would never punish Harry for the way he spoke to me in private. It's not going to stop him being insulting, and it will make him hate me/Mab more. Also, it seems stupid to hurt him for being himself.
2) When I was helping him recover from being dead, in addition to trying to kill him every day, I would offer him some level of magical instruction to bring him up to the level he was at in Changes, only without needing his equipment.
3) I would work on getting him in shape quicker, so that he could be deployed against the Fomor ASAP. This would serve two purposes: it would damage and disrupt my/Mab's enemies, and it would be something that Harry would want to do anyway.
4) When the Fomor/Svaralf treaty problem came up, I would send Harry to fix the problem, telling him that his brother was being held there.
5) When dealing with the problem of Cold Case, I'd send Harry to rescue the kids, and just have someone else come by to take them away next week.
Essentially, if Mab wants Harry on her side, I think she should stop hurting him gratuitously, be marginally helpful, and give him jobs he wants to do. This is textbook manipulation--if you want someone to work for you, give them reasons why they want to and try to avoid giving them reasons to hate you. Some things that would help, Mab cannot do. She cannot be straightforward and explain things clearly to Harry. She cannot suddenly start being nice. She cannot start giving help away for free to Harry's allies. But there are things, as I've pointed out above, that she can do, and isn't. That's a problem if we're supposed to see her as a master manipulator, as we clearly are. When it comes to Harry, she's just not acting like one.
Maybe she has reason. But I haven't seen any in the books, so Nfection seems as good a reason as any other.
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I also see no evidence that Mab is as strong-willed as Harry. I think one of the reasons Harry wields Soulfire is because he is unique in this aspect. While I am sure Mab is quite strong willed herself, I’m not sure if it is enough to contain Nemesis to the extent you seem to think.
Despite lacking free-will, Vadderung displays to Harry that he is strong enough to paralyze Harry with his will alone. Mab is stronger than Vadderung. There is very good reason to believe Mab could withstand Nemfection far better than Cat Sith and Leah, especially if Mab knew she would become Nfected when she saved Leah and had time to prepare defenses.
Ultimately, as demonstrated by Harry and Mother Winter, humans have free-will that is stronger than anything the supernatural entities can muster but as also demonstrated by Harry and Mother Winter (and Vadderung and the Red King), a human has to learn how to use free-will or the human will be weaker.
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1) I would never punish Harry for the way he spoke to me in private. It's not going to stop him being insulting, and it will make him hate me/Mab more. Also, it seems stupid to hurt him for being himself.
Probably, but Mab is confined by her nature and can only withstand so much insult before her pride compels her to act. If Harry, with free will, can't stop himself from being insulting most of the time, why would Mab, who lacks free will, be able to stop herself from taking revenge for insults?
2) When I was helping him recover from being dead, in addition to trying to kill him every day, I would offer him some level of magical instruction to bring him up to the level he was at in Changes, only without needing his equipment.
She can't. She can't give him instruction without also demanding something in turn (and even if she could, she knows Harry would never accept). Trying to kill him is a loophole, she isn't giving him anything but if he survives, he gets stronger.
3) I would work on getting him in shape quicker, so that he could be deployed against the Fomor ASAP. This would serve two purposes: it would damage and disrupt my/Mab's enemies, and it would be something that Harry would want to do anyway.
How is she going to do that? Again, there are limits on what she can do to help him and any attempt to help him would be met by resistance and suspicion that would likely slow Harry's progress, not hasten it.
4) When the Fomor/Svaralf treaty problem came up, I would send Harry to fix the problem, telling him that his brother was being held there.
Wasn't this storyline while Harry was a ghost or at least still recovering?
5) When dealing with the problem of Cold Case, I'd send Harry to rescue the kids, and just have someone else come by to take them away next week.
And miss a perfectly good training opportunity for Molly? Also, Harry was stuck on Demonreach because of Bonnie at this time.
But there are things, as I've pointed out above, that she can do, and isn't. That's a problem if we're supposed to see her as a master manipulator, as we clearly are. When it comes to Harry, she's just not acting like one.
Maybe she has reason. But I haven't seen any in the books, so Nfection seems as good a reason as any other.
1. I think you overstate what Mab can do. She can't just help Harry for free. She couldn't even just help Lea for free, and Lea is full fairy.
2. You are assuming Mab wants Harry to like her. Mab wants Harry to kill her eventually. She isn't trying to manipulate him into a long-term ally, she is trying to manipulate him into a short-term tool that will kill her in the long-term.
3. She seems like a pretty good manipulator to me. Summer Knight, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, Skin Game, she hasn't once failed to get what she really wants from Harry. Take a look at the end of Cold Days, after telling Harry he wouldn't survive long enough to pull the trigger (because her nature compelled her to do so) she explained to Harry reasons that he would accept to persuade him not to try. She knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, so if she isn't using optimum-manipulation strategy at all times, it is either because she is literally incapable of doing certain things, or she has a long-term agenda that wouldn't be served by strategies that appear at first glance to be superior.
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Probably, but Mab is confined by her nature and can only withstand so much insult before her pride compels her to act. If Harry, with free will, can't stop himself from being insulting most of the time, why would Mab, who lacks free will, be able to stop herself from taking revenge for insults?
Fair enough.
She can't. She can't give him instruction without also demanding something in turn (and even if she could, she knows Harry would never accept). Trying to kill him is a loophole, she isn't giving him anything but if he survives, he gets stronger.
Not true. She offered him magical instruction as part of the Winter Knight package in Small Favor.
How is she going to do that? Again, there are limits on what she can do to help him and any attempt to help him would be met by resistance and suspicion that would likely slow Harry's progress, not hasten it.
She's going to say: "Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that we don't have common enemies. Just as I was willing to allow the White Council to use my Ways against the Red Court, I am willing to allow you to go about causing general havoc to the Fomor in your own way, because it suits my purpose. Are you really willing to abandon your friends and allies to attack because of your distrust for me? I thought not."
Wasn't this storyline while Harry was a ghost or at least still recovering?
Recovering, and that's why I said she should work on getting him to recover faster. I don't believe that she had no control over the speed of his recovery, because he was recovered just in time to kill Maeve--the timing's just too precise to be coincidence.
And miss a perfectly good training opportunity for Molly? Also, Harry was stuck on Demonreach because of Bonnie at this time.
Maybe, but given that Maeve had a 150-year backlog, I feel like Molly probably had plenty of training opportunities, and saving a bunch of innocent kids is just perfect for getting Harry to work with you. And it only took place a few days after Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure Harry could still leave the island, even if there was some risk.
I think you overstate what Mab can do. She can't just help Harry for free. She couldn't even just help Lea for free, and Lea is full fairy.
And I think you understate what Mab could do in exchange for Harry being her Knight and taking her orders.
You are assuming Mab wants Harry to like her. Mab wants Harry to kill her eventually. She isn't trying to manipulate him into a long-term ally, she is trying to manipulate him into a short-term tool that will kill her in the long-term.
I am not assuming that Mab wants Harry to like her at all. I am, in fact, assuming that Mab wants to kill herself to prevent Nemesis from taking over, and that having a starborn on hand to help with that would be really useful. What I am claiming is that if Mab did not have reason to kill herself (ie was Nemesis infected) then she is being sloppy (because she is Nemesis infected). It's a Morton's fork argument--whatever path you chose, you end up at the same place.
She seems like a pretty good manipulator to me. Summer Knight, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, Skin Game, she hasn't once failed to get what she really wants from Harry. Take a look at the end of Cold Days, after telling Harry he wouldn't survive long enough to pull the trigger (because her nature compelled her to do so) she explained to Harry reasons that he would accept to persuade him not to try.
She may always get what she wants in the short term from Harry, but she also never fails to piss Harry off and make him hate her more. Personally, unless she is aiming to get Harry to kill her, this seems like poor long-term planning. Remember, Harry is not an astonishingly rational person. He may have logical reasons not to kill Mab, but there's a point beyond which that's not going to stop him.
She knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, so if she isn't using optimum-manipulation strategy at all times, it is either because she is literally incapable of doing certain things, or she has a long-term agenda that wouldn't be served by strategies that appear at first glance to be superior.
If she knows exactly how to get what she wants from Harry, then something is off. I can't believe that is isn't important to have a Knight that's loyal to Winter's interests, and she's not getting that. She is, in fact, encouraging Harry to fight her at every turn, and setting herself up to have to do the work of strong-arming him into doing every job she wants him to be involved in. Now, it's entirely possible that there's a pressing reason why having Harry fight her so consistently is important (ie she needs him to kill her to prevent Nemesis from taking over), but if that's not her aim, then she is messing up.
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Not true. She offered him magical instruction as part of the Winter Knight package in Small Favor.
And Harry rejected that offer. Did he request instruction in his counter-offer in Changes? If not, it isn't part of the deal.
She's going to say: "Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that we don't have common enemies. Just as I was willing to allow the White Council to use my Ways against the Red Court, I am willing to allow you to go about causing general havoc to the Fomor in your own way, because it suits my purpose. Are you really willing to abandon your friends and allies to attack because of your distrust for me? I thought not."
A motivational speech is going to get Harry back into shape quicker? I don't think Harry was being a couch-potato. And if you motivate Harry to push himself too hard, that would delay his recovery.
Recovering, and that's why I said she should work on getting him to recover faster. I don't believe that she had no control over the speed of his recovery, because he was recovered just in time to kill Maeve--the timing's just too precise to be coincidence.
You are right. Uriel put Harry back into his body with just enough time for him to recover to stop Maeve, and Mab pushed Harry to the limits to make sure he recovered in time by trying to kill him daily. A motivational speech was not going make Harry recover weeks sooner.
Maybe, but given that Maeve had a 150-year backlog, I feel like Molly probably had plenty of training opportunities, and saving a bunch of innocent kids is just perfect for getting Harry to work with you. And it only took place a few days after Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure Harry could still leave the island, even if there was some risk.
Mab also wanted Molly to run into Ramirez. That was a double training opportunity.
I am not assuming that Mab wants Harry to like her at all. I am, in fact, assuming that Mab wants to kill herself to prevent Nemesis from taking over, and that having a starborn on hand to help with that would be really useful. What I am claiming is that if Mab did not have reason to kill herself (ie was Nemesis infected) then she is being sloppy (because she is Nemesis infected). It's a Morton's fork argument--whatever path you chose, you end up at the same place.
Oh. It appears we are in agreement that Mab wants Harry to dislike her. I probably should have picked up on that since that is exactly what you said in the last sentence of your prior post. Sorry.
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And Harry rejected that offer. Did he request instruction in his counter-offer in Changes? If not, it isn't part of the deal.
He bargained for the power to defeat the Red Court. Knowledge is power. No one said he'd lose that power after the Red Court was defeated, or that Mab couldn't give him that power after the Red Court was defeated. Mab therefore has the leeway to train him to the level he was at during Changes, only without having to achieve that level with items, based on his bargain to become the Winter Knight.
Also, there is a degree of reciprocal obligation between the Queens and their Knight which training might fall under, but we can't say one way or the other based on the text.
A motivational speech is going to get Harry back into shape quicker? I don't think Harry was being a couch-potato. And if you motivate Harry to push himself too hard, that would delay his recovery.
You are right. Uriel put Harry back into his body with just enough time for him to recover to stop Maeve, and Mab pushed Harry to the limits to make sure he recovered in time by trying to kill him daily. A motivational speech was not going make Harry recover weeks sooner.
Sorry, I was being unclear here. A motivational speech would stop Harry from objecting to being sent after fomor. To get him in shape faster, Mab would have to heal him (it's stated in Cold Days that part of how the Winter Knight mantel works is that it doesn't heal it's bearer, just holds them together until the Queen can heal them--which implies that Mab has the ability to heal Harry) or bend time (which, in the heart of her domain, shouldn't be a ridiculously huge deal, especially just in a couple of rooms).
Mab also wanted Molly to run into Ramirez. That was a double training opportunity.
Fair enough.
I still think Mab should send him on a mission to rescue kids or something, though. (Or at least, if she wants him to hate her less she should. Since she does not want that, it makes sense that she never sends Harry on missions he'd be happy about.)
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I think Mab could care less if anyone likes her. She cares that her allies are powerful and willing to do the work that needs to be done.
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... I still think Mab should send him on a mission to rescue kids or something, though...
Mab wants Harry stronger, harder. He's already too soft, too weak, too ruled by his emotions. Feel-good missions are about as likely as Harry winning the lottery.
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I think Mab could care less if anyone likes her. She cares that her allies are powerful and willing to do the work that needs to be done.
The problem is that for Harry, "willing to do the work that [someone tells him] needs to be done," correlates pretty strongly with how much he likes the person telling him. If the Merlin tells Harry that "A" needs to be done, he's way more likely to decide that, no, actually "B" needs to be done than if Michael tells him that "A" needs to be done.
Mab wants Harry stronger, harder. He's already too soft, too weak, too ruled by his emotions. Feel-good missions are about as likely as Harry winning the lottery.
Stronger and harder, I'd agree with. Ruled less by his emotions, maybe not so much. After all, the only reason he became the Winter Knight is because of how much he is ruled by his emotions. And Harry is at his strongest and hardest while protecting/avenging either innocents or those he cares about--if Mab wants him to be more like that, then a good first step would be throwing him into situations where he's naturally inclined to be on a more regular basis.
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Stronger and harder, I'd agree with. Ruled less by his emotions, maybe not so much. After all, the only reason he became the Winter Knight is because of how much he is ruled by his emotions.
Yes; a poor choice of words on my part!
Say rather, Harry is too often softened by his emotions. He chooses softer approaches, is gentler, kinder... warmer. Not what Mab wants in her Winter Knight.
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Say rather, Harry is too often softened by his emotions. He chooses softer approaches, is gentler, kinder... warmer. Not what Mab wants in her Winter Knight.
True. Mab definitely wants Harry to be less compassionate. (Incidentally, I think this is a mistake. His compassion is often what fuels the heights of power that he reaches, pushing him to attempt things that he would otherwise not consider. I can't help but think that a less compassionate Harry would also be a weaker one. I also think that Mab, by her nature, is incapable of recognizing this, though.)
The problem is, Mab's actions are not likely to make Harry less compassionate, or less warm, or less inclined to help people simply because they need it. The only thing they do make Harry "less" of is less inclined to agree with anything Mab says on general principle.
What is making Harry less compassionate, on the other hand, is the Winter Knight mantle, and Harry's need to use it. This would seem to imply that if Mab wants him to be more Winter-like, she could best do so by putting Harry in situations where Harry would be willing to draw upon it. Possibly in situations already designed to encourage people to be less compassionate: where no matter how hard you try you're losing people, where you need to have "bucketloads of sangfroid" to get through it--you know, like the descriptions we get in Ghost Days and Skin Game of what fighting the war against the Fomor to protect Chicago and other cities is like. Which, in fact, Harry would be glad to do because he would be defending people, so Mab wouldn't have to go through her usual rigamarole of having to force Harry into doing it. Which he has plenty of time to do, even, because Mab doesn't seem to need him more than a few days out of the year. Which would help him gain and maintain allies that he could use to help fulfill Mab's purposes when needed (and he would: see Cold Days).
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@nadia
I think part of it is that using your emotions to power your magic is kind of a JV move - we don’t really see any of the other higher-level practitioners working themselves into any emotional frenzy to perform complex & powerful magic (like Ivy or anyone in SC). I think Mab is trying to level Harry up quickly for the fight that is to come. Recall Lea’s training of Molly & her chastisement of Harry about the same - this is just how Winter sees the world. There is no room for compassion or kindness, because they are things the Adversary will exploit (like in Aurora or Lily).
If you think about it, Harry in StF or FM or GP is a whole lot more emotional, worried about covering his ass (especially from his own shady behavior) & reliant on Bob/potions etc. Harry as WK doesn’t even need a staff & is a lot more sure of himself (much fewer doubts).
So I don’t see compassion as a major source of power for Harry in the future books, but I do think it’s vital for him to hold onto in order to preserve his humanity as it gets eaten away by the Winter mantle.
@Cozarkian
I don’t think any immortals in the DV have free will - that is what they have to give up. You have simply pointed out examples of their Will, there is no evidence that it is free. That is what wins Harry the “fight” with MW - that he is able to juice his free will to resist what his mantle’s highest beholden is ordering him to do with Soulfire (despite her threats).
On a separate note, I don’t think Harry will kill Mab, although it is a definite possibility (not necessarily because of the she’s Nfected theory). Mother Summer states that the purpose of Winter is to guard the Gates. If Harry wins the BAT at the end & Outsiders are beaten forever, Winter will not have a purpose. So just like the Jotun/ Aesir no longer run around much after Winter took over guarding the Gates, I think Winter too will cease to exist (& so will most of the Fae 😢)
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The problem is that for Harry, "willing to do the work that [someone tells him] needs to be done," correlates pretty strongly with how much he likes the person telling him. If the Merlin tells Harry that "A" needs to be done, he's way more likely to decide that, no, actually "B" needs to be done than if Michael tells him that "A" needs to be done.
He should love Mab, as he broke his back doing the right thing. She gave him back his legs.
How you feel about someone is only a small piece of what goes on when you work with or for them. If your house is on fire you don't ask the fireman to be likeable, you ask him to do his job, even if he is otherwise an asshole.On a separate note, I don’t think Harry will kill Mab, although it is a definite possibility (not necessarily because of the she’s Nfected theory). Mother Summer states that the purpose of Winter is to guard the Gates. If Harry wins the BAT at the end & Outsiders are beaten forever, Winter will not have a purpose. So just like the Jotun/ Aesir no longer run around much after Winter took over guarding the Gates, I think Winter too will cease to exist (& so will most of the Fae 😢)
I suspect that Mab will be back stabbed by someone in close, and that Harry will mourn her greatly hen she is gone. Just my opinion.
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He should love Mab, as he broke his back doing the right thing. She gave him back his legs.
What? This makes no sense whatsoever. Mab gave Harry back his legs as an explicit part of a bargain that Harry was extremely unhappy making, only made because his daughter was in danger, and was willing to kill himself to get out of. And even if none of that were true, you're still not expected to love, for example, the doctor that fixes you when you go to the hospital. I don't see how any of what Mab has done would cause Harry to love her, much less obligate him to.
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What? This makes no sense whatsoever. Mab gave Harry back his legs as an explicit part of a bargain that Harry was extremely unhappy making, only made because his daughter was in danger, and was willing to kill himself to get out of. And even if none of that were true, you're still not expected to love, for example, the doctor that fixes you when you go to the hospital. I don't see how any of what Mab has done would cause Harry to love her, much less obligate him to.
That was just a taste of sarcasm. The next time I'll tag it as such. On the balance, for a creature portrayed as evil, Mab has been remarkably consistent in not interfering in human affairs. And she has never tasked Harry with anything that didn't help him as much as it helped her. Consider Skin Game. In the end Mab's mechanization's make Harry's allies rich when they are allowed to leave Hades with the diamonds. A new Knight is created and Nicodemus is slapped down. And Harry is holding the magical weapons.
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True. Mab definitely wants Harry to be less compassionate. (Incidentally, I think this is a mistake. His compassion is often what fuels the heights of power that he reaches, pushing him to attempt things that he would otherwise not consider. I can't help but think that a less compassionate Harry would also be a weaker one. I also think that Mab, by her nature, is incapable of recognizing this, though.)
100% agree.
The problem is, Mab's actions are not likely to make Harry less compassionate, or less warm, or less inclined to help people simply because they need it...
I think the same applies here. Mab's doing the best she can, poor thing; but she's out of her depth with Harry Dresden. She has no idea how such a mush-hearted softie can be so stubborn. No idea at all (and that means she resorts to lowest-common-denominator tactics, battering Harry with violence and threats thereof).
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Mab's doing the best she can, poor thing; but she's out of her depth with Harry Dresden. She has no idea how such a mush-hearted softie can be so stubborn. No idea at all (and that means she resorts to lowest-common-denominator tactics, battering Harry with violence and threats thereof).
This makes sense.