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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tsunami on April 26, 2011, 08:50:42 PM

Title: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 26, 2011, 08:50:42 PM
I've been toying with the Goblin-Knight Concept, and have created a few things to use with it.
So i'd like to present those here to get some feedback.

First: Sponsored Magic

Wyld Magic
Drawing on the power of the Wyld Court of the Erlking, you're able to cast spells that fit its essential nature: wildness, hunting, balefire, predation. These magics are under the sway and watch of the Erlking; making use of it will inevitably catch his notice. The Wyldfae are not as fixed in their ways as Winter or Summer are, the Erlkings agenda can change quickly, but he is usually neutral, and very instinctual. He is not about cruelty, but showing weakness is an invitation for him to pursue a target.

Cost: 4 Refresh for the package. And you need approval from the Erlking. Reduce this cost by 1 if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost by 2 if you have both.

Benefits: Standard Sponsored Magic benefits (YS:288). Instead of being effective against a certain type of Creature, like Seelie or Unseelie Magic, Wyld-Magic is particular effective when used to hunt. It provides a bonus of +1 to the power or complexity threshold of any spell used for that purpose. These boni stack with possible specialization boni for Evocation or Thaumaturgy.
In Addition, in a hunting context, Wyld-Magic may be used to perform Divination and Summoning spells at evocation speeds and methods.

Second: The Spear of the Wild Hunt, an Item of power wielded by the Goblin knight

Spear of the Wylde Hunt
It is what it is: A long-bladed, well balanced, medium length hunting spear (Weapon:3, Melee&Thrown). Unbreakable. When wielded by the Mortal Champion of the Erlking it grants the following abilities.
+2   IoP  Bonus
-1   Imbued with Balefire: If the Wielder so chooses, the Power of Belefire may be channeled through the spear, covering it in bright green flames and increaseing  it's Weapon rating by +2, possibly overcoming catches that may be satisfied by “magical fire”.
-1   True Aim: When used in a manner appealing to the Erlking, all rolls to wield the “Spear of the Wylde Hunt” recieve a +1 bonus.
-1   Never Far from Reach: After using the Spear as a thrown Weapon, the rightful owner can recall it to his hands as a supplemental action. This only works if the Weapon is thrown. If it is taken from the bearer and/or intentionally kept from him, this ability does not work.

Total Cost -1

Third: Minor Abilities

-1  Mystical Tracker
Upon getting the metaphysical “scent” of a target you can attempt to track it wherever it goes, using Investigation or Survival.
Basically this allows you to do an equivalent to tracking spells that only works on lifeforms. You need a "scent" which means either a symbolic link, or personal knowledge of the targets aura. Reading targets auras for the purpose of tracking and getting scents, and only for those purposes, is part of this ability.
-1  Relentless Hunter: You are extremely hard to shake off. Add +2 to your rolls to track.

-1   Cloak of the Hunter
This is simply the Minor Veils part of Glamours
Veil with Discipline or Deceit. Only self, things that belong to you, or those that have a pact with you.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 26, 2011, 09:12:10 PM
Minor note: It's "bonuses."

Mystical Tracker seems superfluous.  I'd simply say that Sponsored Magic gives you the ability to do tracking with evocation's methods and speed...which you already did.  To give this combat utility, I'd make it able to pierce veils (which I suppose it is, but I'd mention that you could use it for that, it'd being a block against taking the block).

The Erlking doesn't seem terribly subtle, so I'd probably eschew "Cloak of the Hunters."  Old school hunting had less to do with stealth than scaring up a target and chasing it.

Spear of the Wyld Hunt is nice.  I like it.

If he were to designate a mortal a knight, what would you make a catch for any toughness powers?  That one always threw me.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: citadel97501 on April 27, 2011, 01:15:29 AM
The Erlking doesn't seem terribly subtle, so I'd probably eschew "Cloak of the Hunters."  Old school hunting had less to do with stealth than scaring up a target and chasing it.

Well I disagree because the power is part of his court, and stealth is a part of hunting, because you need to get close to your prey the spook them, that way they can't escape.  Also if you read through
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 27, 2011, 01:57:05 AM
Well I disagree because the power is part of his court, and stealth is a part of hunting, because you need to get close to your prey the spook them, that way they can't escape.  Also if you read through
(click to show/hide)

Yes, stealth is part of hunting.  However, it wasn't really part of hunting in Medieval times (or at least not for nobility). 

Also, couldn't that stealth be modeled by giving them high stealth rather than a magic ability? 
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 27, 2011, 05:40:36 AM
Mystical Tracker seems superfluous.  I'd simply say that Sponsored Magic gives you the ability to do tracking with evocation's methods and speed...which you already did.  To give this combat utility, I'd make it able to pierce veils (which I suppose it is, but I'd mention that you could use it for that, it'd being a block against taking the block).

The Erlking doesn't seem terribly subtle, so I'd probably eschew "Cloak of the Hunters."  Old school hunting had less to do with stealth than scaring up a target and chasing it.
The Minor Abilities are meant for lower refresh builds, where full sponsored magic would be to expensive. If you have sponsored Wyld Magic, you can easily skip them.
 
Mystical Tracker was not supposed to be a combat skill. But since it's basically a supernatural sense with a tracking ability, you could add piercing veils. I'm not sure if -1 refresh is expensive enough in that case though.

Cloak of the hunter:
The Erlking is not based in Medieval times. The Roots go far deeper. And i don't think he's limited to one style of hunting.
Sure, you could go with high Stealth, but I like the idea of magical veils for the Goblin-Knight. That's why i went with the extra ability.

Spear of the Wyld Hunt is nice.  I like it.
thanks

If he were to designate a mortal a knight, what would you make a catch for any toughness powers?  That one always threw me.
Yeah, i haven't figured this one out yet either.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: toturi on April 27, 2011, 08:44:42 AM
Cloak of the hunter:
The Erlking is not based in Medieval times. The Roots go far deeper. And i don't think he's limited to one style of hunting.
Sure, you could go with high Stealth, but I like the idea of magical veils for the Goblin-Knight. That's why i went with the extra ability.
I'd have gone simply with a reskinned Cloak of Shadows, with a boost to Stealth.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 27, 2011, 09:56:25 AM
I'd have gone simply with a reskinned Cloak of Shadows, with a boost to Stealth.
That could work too.
But I wanted the ability to actually turn invisible, so the Minor Veils seemed to fit the bill just fine.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 27, 2011, 10:15:10 AM
Personally, I'd say hiding in the shade of a tree or whatever's more Erlking style than actually going invisible.

Anyway, looks good! I was gonna say something about the "power or complexity" bit in Wyld Magic, but that's the same as Hellfire, so fair enough...
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: kihon on April 27, 2011, 01:15:13 PM
A question was asked, and not answered -- the 'catch' for the "Goblin Knight?"

What about plain old "IRON" -- it would seem to me that the Wyld Court is very Fae, meaning the Fae in extreme.  If I were running the game I'd use Iron as the 'catch' - it seems very appropriate - as it is very foreign in the woods.  Not sure, but it seems to fit.  Just my 2 cents worth.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 27, 2011, 01:54:39 PM
Hrm. Iron definitely works, as he's Faepowered- I'm just wondering if anything else should be in there. On the other hand, Goblins only have "cold iron and the like," so we can probably stop there.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 27, 2011, 02:47:35 PM
A question was asked, and not answered -- the 'catch' for the "Goblin Knight?"

What about plain old "IRON" -- it would seem to me that the Wyld Court is very Fae, meaning the Fae in extreme.  If I were running the game I'd use Iron as the 'catch' - it seems very appropriate - as it is very foreign in the woods.  Not sure, but it seems to fit.  Just my 2 cents worth.

Hrm. Iron definitely works, as he's Faepowered- I'm just wondering if anything else should be in there. On the other hand, Goblins only have "cold iron and the like," so we can probably stop there.

My problem with IRON is the fact that the other Fae knights don't have Iron in their catches at all.
Somehow i think that the knight should be able to withstand the main weakness of the Fae. Seems to me that would be one major reason, among others, to have knights in the first place.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: kihon on April 27, 2011, 08:52:30 PM
Why?

Why does the Knight need to be resistant to iron?  Would you have your knight out picking up iron out of the never never?  I don't see a reason why that couldn't be a catch.  In fact, with the Wlyd court - I think it's very appropriate.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 27, 2011, 09:46:15 PM
Why?

Why does the Knight need to be resistant to iron?  Would you have your knight out picking up iron out of the never never?  I don't see a reason why that couldn't be a catch.  In fact, with the Wlyd court - I think it's very appropriate.

Why?... It's simply my personal opinion.
Of course it could be a catch, I simply said that i don't like it for a Knight. Knights are a tool the Fae use to circumvent certain restrictions. I think weakness to iron is one of those restrictions.

I think it's no more or less appropriate for the Wild Court, than it is for the Summer or Winter Court. And since their knights don't have Iron as their catch, i'd like one that omits iron for the Goblin-Knight as well.

But it's really up to whoever builds the character. I'd like a less common catch than iron, if you like iron... go with it.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 27, 2011, 11:15:44 PM
Sponsored Magic and IoP look good.

However, I do not see the point of the minor abilities. Sponsored Magic covers Cloak Of The Hunter and most of Mystical Tracker.

Cloak Of Shadows might be a good idea if you must have a -1 refresh stealth power. Replacing shadows with wilderness areas.

Relentless Hunter looks like a stunt to me.

You could also handle Mystical Tracker as a Supernatural Sense.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 28, 2011, 05:59:37 AM
Sponsored Magic and IoP look good.

However, I do not see the point of the minor abilities. Sponsored Magic covers Cloak Of The Hunter and most of Mystical Tracker.
Like i said, the minor abilities are for builds without Full Sponsored Magic. In any Build that has Wyld Magic, i would not bother with them.

Relentless Hunter looks like a stunt to me.
It's meant to be an addon to mystical tracker. I guess that wasn't clear from how i wrote it down.

You could also handle Mystical Tracker as a Supernatural Sense.
Rules wise that is basically what it is. I just reflavored it a bit to fit the magical theme i wanted.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 28, 2011, 07:57:30 PM
Ah, I see. I misunderstood.

Why not just use Ritual for the minor abilities?
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 29, 2011, 04:55:19 AM
I would be inclined to make the catch that the Toughness powers only work against their prey (+2 for only working for limited circumstances, +2 for being very common, +1 for being researched but would require access to wizard's library or the like).  It means that you can be a tough and formidable opponent, but only towards your prey.

For instance, you could have Supernatural Toughness and and Recovery (-4 each, but the catch would give you +5) for -3 refresh.  Powerful but more limited than the Summer and Winter Knight's powers.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 29, 2011, 06:13:23 AM
Ah, I see. I misunderstood.

Why not just use Ritual for the minor abilities?

Ritual wouldn't allow for mobile veils, for example. Or tracking at, for lack of a better word, "evocation speed".
But it's really a matter of personal preference in the end.



Regarding the Catch, here's my take:

Weapons fashioned from parts of Creatures personally hunted and killed by the wielder.
(Everyone can hunt and kill something. +2; It requires very specific knowledge to find out that's what the catch is +0)

Basically you need to prove yourself a hunter to face the Champion of the Great Hunter.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: sandchigger on April 29, 2011, 03:42:27 PM
With that take, could a RCV (for grisly example) drain someone dry then club you to death with their thigh bone? Does that count as "a creature hunted"?
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 29, 2011, 04:38:07 PM
I'd say it would. Finding and killing prey is archetypal predator behaviour, after all, and the Erlking's as much about predation as he is human hunters.

Wild Hunt. The name says it all.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tsunami on April 29, 2011, 05:18:45 PM
With that take, could a RCV (for grisly example) drain someone dry then club you to death with their thigh bone? Does that count as "a creature hunted"?

It wasn't the first thing that came to mind when i chose that catch... but yeah, i guess it does.  :)
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: devonapple on April 29, 2011, 05:40:39 PM
With that take, could a RCV (for grisly example) drain someone dry then club you to death with their thigh bone? Does that count as "a creature hunted"?

That would be both metal and brutal.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Richard_Chilton on April 29, 2011, 06:42:38 PM
Personally, I don't think that the Knights were designed to fight the other court.  My view is that they were designed to fight and interact with mortals.  To do things with (and to) mortals that queens just can't.

Richard
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 30, 2011, 02:39:41 AM
Personally, I don't think that the Knights were designed to fight the other court.  My view is that they were designed to fight and interact with mortals.  To do things with (and to) mortals that queens just can't.

Richard

Agreed, but the Knights shouldn't be vulnerable to iron.  A: they are mortal.  B: They can interact with mortals better if they aren't.  They are vulnerable to the other court because it is the anthesis of what is powering them.

In the case of the Wyld Knight, I would say that they are only protected when actively hunting (thus my proposed catch), although the Catch basically saying that they are vulnerable to other hunters is also pretty good (I'm just not a fan of the flavor of it).
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 30, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
Agreed, but the Knights shouldn't be vulnerable to iron.  A: they are mortal. 
And with it as a catch, they die if you stick three feet of metal through their guts!

... Oh wait.

 ;)
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tedronai on April 30, 2011, 01:07:22 PM
And with it as a catch, they die if you stick three feet of metal through their guts!

... Oh wait.

 ;)

A Sidhe will probably die if you stick 3' of aluminum through their guts.  It doesn't mean that aluminum serves as a catch, though.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 30, 2011, 02:44:32 PM
A Sidhe will probably die if you stick 3' of aluminum through their guts.  It doesn't mean that aluminum serves as a catch, though.
My point. A Knight is no more vulnerable to iron than any other mortal if he has it as a catch. He's just less invulnerable.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Silverblaze on April 30, 2011, 04:13:56 PM
I'm of the opinion the way the courts seem to work, it would be far easier to simply create a fourth court (Spring) to act as antithesis to Autumn.

Maybe have Spring/Autumn being lesser courts, maybe with patriarchs instead of matriarchs.

Thus making their catch trappings of Spring.

Otherwise, I've little to add to the conversation.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 30, 2011, 04:21:46 PM
I don't like that, personally. I don't see the Erlking as Autumn. He's the hunter. Nothing more, nothing less. he has no opponents but his prey, and they can't harm him...
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Silverblaze on April 30, 2011, 11:39:04 PM
I don't like that, personally. I don't see the Erlking as Autumn. He's the hunter. Nothing more, nothing less. he has no opponents but his prey, and they can't harm him...

Just my opinion.  I like the smaller lesser court idea.  That you and many don't is awesome, we'll likely never game together.  If we do, you'll have to deal with it then, for now.  I accept your position. 

I will say that him beign a hunter and nothing more/nothing less makes him a little one sided, too black and white and in turn...boring.

As for his prey not being able to hurt him....  I call Bull$h1t.  Per system, theres a few things that can hurt anything.

#1 any item or creature with the power: all are equal under god.
#2 soulfire
#3 any other plot device power or supernatural heavyweight 
#4 any PC with a comparable refresh toa supernatural heavyweight, after all teh Dresden Files is all about exceptions and rarities or the novels would be boring.  There is no reason the main characters of a chronicle should be any different.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: sinker on May 01, 2011, 12:06:12 AM
As for his prey not being able to hurt him....  I call Bull$h1t.  Per system, theres a few things that can hurt anything.

#1 any item or creature with the power: all are equal under god.
#2 soulfire
#3 any other plot device power or supernatural heavyweight 
#4 any PC with a comparable refresh toa supernatural heavyweight, after all teh Dresden Files is all about exceptions and rarities or the novels would be boring.  There is no reason the main characters of a chronicle should be any different.

Yes those things would bypass any toughness powers awarded from the Erlking since they are powers/situations that bypass toughness powers. How is that relevant to that specific catch?
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: ways and means on May 01, 2011, 12:07:09 AM
 
Just my opinion.  I like the smaller lesser court idea.  That you and many don't is awesome, we'll likely never game together.  If we do, you'll have to deal with it then, for now.  I accept your position.  

I will say that him beign a hunter and nothing more/nothing less makes him a little one sided, too black and white and in turn...boring.

As for his prey not being able to hurt him....  I call Bull$h1t.  Per system, theres a few things that can hurt anything.

#1 any item or creature with the power: all are equal under god.
#2 soulfire
#3 any other plot device power or supernatural heavyweight  
#4 any PC with a comparable refresh toa supernatural heavyweight, after all teh Dresden Files is all about exceptions and rarities or the novels would be boring.  There is no reason the main characters of a chronicle should be any different.

1- This is because god is the ultimate heavy hitter, so the power only works in my mind if it is being powered by an absolute power
2- Soulfire doesn't help against Physical immunity it only effects the toughness powers,
3- Some supernatural heavy hitter can't hurt each other which dosen't matter as they are unlikly to fight
4- If a PC can access the catch for a phsically immune enemy it can hurt it, or use mental stress instead but just being strong isn't a justification for bypassing a catch.

I also think fairy granted toughness powers work against iron at least in the case of the knights, the trappings of the summer courts  catch refer to fire, life etc rather than iron which is a trapping of Faedom as whole rather than any of the courts. I think the fairy swords themselves are made with iron which shows that at least for powerful practitioners of fairy magic iron can be overcome. As for the Erlking I allways think of him as the unnofficial king of the wild fae rather than autumn and so would have the iron catch and possibly a catch to both summer and winter or a catch to neither of them.  
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 01, 2011, 12:21:01 AM
The Nevernever is a big place.  If you want you can make up with kingdoms that aren't run by fairies but are run by things a bit a like fairies.

Kingdoms that they own kings and queens who might want their own champions.  Or ones established by the old gods where anything from a myth can be found.

The Grumpack's Knight* could easily be modeled after the summer or winter knight.

Richard

* = Grumpack is a word that I just made up - they have their own kingdom off in the Nevernever.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on May 01, 2011, 10:00:52 AM
Just my opinion.  I like the smaller lesser court idea.  That you and many don't is awesome, we'll likely never game together.  If we do, you'll have to deal with it then, for now.  I accept your position. 

I will say that him beign a hunter and nothing more/nothing less makes him a little one sided, too black and white and in turn...boring.
Equally reasonable- though I should point out that the idea of "hunter" has a lot of sides to it. There's the big obvious chasy animal, there's the SUDDENLY TRAPDOOR SPIDER sort of ninja antics, there's the human side of it (honour and respect for the prey), there's hunting for food and hunting to prove yourself and hunting for the sheer joy of chasing when they run... Yeah, I think there's a lot there to play with.

As for his prey not being able to hurt him....  I call Bull$h1t.  Per system, theres a few things that can hurt anything.

#1 any item or creature with the power: all are equal under god.
#2 soulfire
#3 any other plot device power or supernatural heavyweight 
#4 any PC with a comparable refresh toa supernatural heavyweight, after all teh Dresden Files is all about exceptions and rarities or the novels would be boring.  There is no reason the main characters of a chronicle should be any different.
Fair- I was being rather figurative. I agree that the Huntsman/ Erlking's Knight needs a catch, I just don't think "opponent" (or at least what he sees as his opponent) is the way to go. Mostly I was basing this on how I see him from the books, and sort of coming from his point of view. He sees people as hunters or prey. He hunts prey. And it'd be really weird if he had a vulnerability to prey.

So actually, what I see as the Big Dichotomy here is (from a more objective view) Wild versus Technology. The Erlking is all about wildness, but humanity's tamed its world now- we don't hunt our food, we raise it to go meekly to the slaughterhouse, and to me, that's anathema to everything the Erlking's about. Coming from that point of view, I'd make his Catch either something technological (and this is why Iron could be a good one, even for the Knight- it's a symbol of Making Things), or a rather more conceptual vulnerability to He Who Has Tamed Me or Bound Me or whatever. It's a bit harder to implement, but it could be interesting- fighting the Huntsman becomes a struggle to maneouvre him into a position where you can get a rope around him...
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: evileeyore on May 01, 2011, 12:02:12 PM
He sees people as hunters or prey. He hunts prey. And it'd be really weird if he had a vulnerability to prey.

No it wouldn't.  It would fit fine as the idea that any prey that turned to fight would be a challenge and could porve themselves worthy.  Any prey that just gets run down never had a chance.


And no, prey that only turns to fight when it's cornered isn't fulfilling this Catch.  It would need to be a hunted that took a stand beofre it ran out of options.


I'd still make it a 0 Catch though.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on May 01, 2011, 01:24:58 PM
Ah, now that's an interesting one. Getting the chance to flee and choosing not to take it...
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 01, 2011, 01:36:15 PM
My issue with that, though, is it seems to apply to quite a lot of the combats that a Knight of the Wyld Hunt would be part of.  +0 for a catch that is easily satisfied (and likely will be satisfied often) seems a but unfair.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: evileeyore on May 01, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
My issue with that, though, is it seems to apply to quite a lot of the combats that a Knight of the Wyld Hunt would be part of.  +0 for a catch that is easily satisfied (and likely will be satisfied often) seems a but unfair.

Are you a) Hunting them and did they b) Make a Stand Before Getting Cornered?



But I'd probably use the standard Fae trappings as well, Cold Iron, Betraying a Promise Thrice Made, etc.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on May 01, 2011, 03:22:35 PM
See, other Knights don't get Iron as a weakness. If we're having Prey that Stands Before It Needs To as a Catch, I think it's fair to leave Iron off.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Silverblaze on May 01, 2011, 04:39:50 PM
Yes those things would bypass any toughness powers awarded from the Erlking since they are powers/situations that bypass toughness powers. How is that relevant to that specific catch?

I wasn't arguing the specific catch.  Was disputing the fact that Erlking's prey can't hurt him.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Silverblaze on May 01, 2011, 04:48:30 PM

1- This is because god is the ultimate heavy hitter, so the power only works in my mind if it is being powered by an absolute power
2- Soulfire doesn't help against Physical immunity it only effects the toughness powers,
3- Some supernatural heavy hitter can't hurt each other which dosen't matter as they are unlikly to fight
4- If a PC can access the catch for a phsically immune enemy it can hurt it, or use mental stress instead but just being strong isn't a justification for bypassing a catch.
  

2- True enough. Although, I wasn't operating under the theory that the Erlking would have Physical Immunity. 

3- I was reffering to the chart which ranks the supernatural heavy hitters, I assumed Knights, or Lady's may have reason to be in Erlking's path.

4- I wasn't suggesting powerlevel satisfies catch, but to disallow the main characters a chance at finding a way to bypass a catch, would be poor.  I suppose in my initial post I misworded that. apologies.

Idea for Erlking's catch/his Knights: perhaps "Worthy Prey" +0 --- Not just Prey that stands before him/her/it?
I assume Fae aren't going to be chosen as his knights, therefore...iron shouldn't be a catch.  If they are indeed fae, iron should still be applicable.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Tedronai on May 01, 2011, 10:51:45 PM
Fairy Knights being drawn from the Fae themselves defeats the purpose of having a Fairy Knight, that is, to act in matters and by means unavailable to the Fae themselves by virtue of the inherent limitations of the Fae condition.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Silverblaze on May 02, 2011, 12:02:48 AM
2I assume Fae aren't going to be chosen as his knights, therefore...iron shouldn't be a catch. 

Agreed. 100% with Tedronai

However, I could see the appeal to having one of the Erlking's goblins acting in similar capacity.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on May 02, 2011, 11:45:38 AM
Agreed. 100% with Tedronai

However, I could see the appeal to having one of the Erlking's goblins acting in similar capacity.
Doesn't that defeat the point of a Knight- someone enot bound by the restrictions all Fae (of which goblins are a type) suffer?
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Silverblaze on May 02, 2011, 05:55:35 PM
Doesn't that defeat the point of a Knight- someone enot bound by the restrictions all Fae (of which goblins are a type) suffer?

In both of my previous responses I remarked that I agree with that very sentiment and that Fae shouldn't be knights.  I agree, you are correct.  They would be a bad choice, they too suffer from similar maladies to the sidhe.  

Why however a faerie lord (Mab, Maeve, Titania, Aurora/Lily, Erlking, (erlking jr?) couldn't grant the capacity to a fae is beyond me.  They seem to be capable of choosing other supernatural threats.
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 Also, Erlking doesn't seem to be unable to hunt anything...mortals included; they just make crappy prey. So why he'd need a knight in the first place is beyond me.  However, if he wanted secondary huntsmen... why not use a goblin etc.  They as designed in htis thread seem to act in a similar capacity to Erlking anyhow.

I say this because in a game I play in, that very thing happened.  Goblin, with extra powers hunted our group for the Erlking.  Could have just been a goblin sidhe, I don't know.

If my logic cannot be seen, I rest my case. Apologies.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: MorkaisChosen on May 02, 2011, 06:29:45 PM
Ah, I see what you mean. I wouldn't run such a thing as a Knight-type, myself- probably just a lesser Goblin Sidhe (lesser compared to the Erlking himself...).

I'm not entirely certain why the Erlking would want a Mortal Knight, but it's a cool idea. Maybe for hunting people who "cheat" by using his Fae nature? It takes some interpretation- he was impressed when
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, but I think his reaction to someone who knows he's being hunted and therefore hides in a barbed-wire wrapped iron cage would be rather different. Thus the Knight (or Huntsman, I like that title...) would be a more unconventional hunter, one who can hunt using the modern technological world, rather than just running through it.

The person you've mentioned is relatively human for a supernatural (metaphysically speaking), so I'd say you need to be quite human to become a Knight- human enough to choose it. If I was going to explain it, I'd say that though the Queens (and Erlking, since we're discussing him) can lend some power to their Fae servants, but there's something about the Knight package (which there's only one of per Court, according to the books) that doesn't work well with that. A Fae is what it is, and it can't change that much- so their nature can't accept the burden and rewards of becoming Summer or Winter's Knight or the Erlking's Huntsman, it'd return to being what it was after a while. A human or near-human, however, has the freedom to choose to change themself, and by choosing to accept that power, choosing to allow "Sidhe Knight of Summer" to become part of their nature, it binds to them until their death and empowers them to do the will of their Court.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: sandchigger on May 02, 2011, 07:44:00 PM
Why however a faerie lord (Mab, Maeve, Titania, Aurora/Lily, Erlking, (erlking jr?) couldn't grant the capacity to a fae is beyond me.  They seem to be capable of choosing other supernatural threats.
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There's a difference between "can" and "would". If you're the queen of a court, all the creatures in that court are already at your beck and call. Just like Mab can order Lea around, she can order around any other winter fae (except Mother Winter, of course). So there would be no need to bind them to her as a knight. In addition, it's stated that the knights are the mortal champions of the fae. The only requirement (aside from the queen saying "kinght-achu, I choose you!") is that you be mortal and therefore have the free will (in game terms: positive refresh value) to say "well sign me up!"
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: devonapple on May 02, 2011, 08:06:25 PM
I'd be fine with making any number of Fae Lords/Ladies, Lieutenants, Barons/Baronesses, etc., without calling any of them a [insert Fae Court] Knight. That is a "charged" term in the DresdenVerse with specific trappings and implications which folks have already explained in great detail. It doesn't mean you can't have a compelling mid-level Fae opponent against whom the players can match wits and swords.

If one needs an honorific for a Sidhe/Goblin/other Fae who stands as the preeminent combatant/agent of a given Fae Subculture, we have other terms, like Champion.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: kihon on May 05, 2011, 06:13:07 PM
So is there anywhere /any time - that Jim has said how many Fae Courts actually exist, or could exist?
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 05, 2011, 06:26:39 PM
So is there anywhere /any time - that Jim has said how many Fae Courts actually exist, or could exist?

No.

He'll probably only use Summer and Winter in the novels though.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: wednesdayboy on May 06, 2011, 05:36:13 PM
Great brainstorming!  In our game, my friend and I are playing twin brothers who are the Erlking's Faerie knights.  (Although we call ourselves his Hounds.)  Originally we used the book's Un/Seelie magic as our sponsored magic since neither we nor the GM had played DF before and we didn't want to start out trying to houserule stuff.  Now that we're familiar with the rules we started talking about making our own Erlking sponsored magics.

Our GM suggested Earth and Spirit could be part of his domain; Earth due to the connection hunters tend to have with the land and its details, and Spirit due to the connection of the spirits of hunters to the Wild Hunt.  We had the same idea as Tsunami with Divination and Summoning thaumaturgy being cast as evocations.  And we've tossed around the idea maybe ectomancy too because of how the Wild Hunt summons spirits to join in the Hunt.
Title: Re: Wyld Magic and more - My take on Magic Sponsored by the Erlking
Post by: Hal on May 06, 2011, 06:10:28 PM
A further thought on The Catch for Erlking-sponsored Toughness powers . . . what if it depended on the seasons?  A hunter changes tactics when he's hunting in the dead of winter or the peak of summer.  So, in the winter, the Wyld Magic could overcome Seelie Toughness but Wyld Toughness could be overcome by Seelie Magic; change those to Unseelie in the Winter.  This would also make for interesting occurrences during the changing of the seasons and the exchange of The Table. 

I dunno, just a thought.