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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on September 30, 2023, 02:15:26 AM
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I'm near the end of rereading; well, mostly re-listening to all of the Dresden Files case file books. On my first read through and then listening to the audio book of Peace Talks, I just assumed that Cowl was around but keeping out of sight. He makes a good suspect for summoning the cornerhounds and I think there was even a WoJ that came out a few years ago that Cowl is sometimes operating in the background but we just don't see him. (Yes, I know there were threads on this subject back in the day, I don't think any of them caught what I'm about to mention.)
However, this last time I was struck by what Warden Chandler said to Harry just after Harry left the Raith chateau:
Chandler’s smile didn’t falter. But it took on an aspect of granite, somehow. “No one’s that disingenuous, Dresden. The Winter Lady gets you quarters inside the svartalf embassy. Not long after, a known personal agent of Lara Raith and a frequent ally of your own gets inside, somehow, and attempts to assassinate Etri. Hours later, you visit the assassin’s significant other, then have a meeting with Ms. Raith.”
“Um,” I said. “Sure, I mean, when you put it like that, I see how that might look a little suspicious… ”
I swear, sometimes I just want to hit Harry upside his head. He either doesn't know how to defend himself from false allegations or he misses an obvious clue. In this case it may have been both. By the way I'm not accusing Chandler of anything specific. He just happened to be the warden who spoke directly to Harry.
Harry should have mentioned that Chandler's description of Harry's day left out his meeting with the two current KotC and one former KotC. That by itself goes against the narrative that Harry was consorting with nefarious characters all day. Perhaps even more glaring, Harry could have asked, "If you were following me around, why didn't you help me and Senior Council member McCoy when we were attacked by Outsiders today? You must have seen that after I visited Justine, I didn't leave immediately. I was checking for magical trace energy outside of her apartment when McCoy appeared. We had a brief discussion before a herd of cornerhounds came after us. It would have been nice if there had been some wardens around to help out."
I'm wondering if all of the wardens followed Harry around or if they did it in shifts. Actually, it makes sense that Ramirez did the following, he's the one who had the magical ink on his hand that would allow him to follow Harry around. He could have contacted the other wardens through magical means when he wanted all of them to confront Harry outside the Raith estate. That makes Warden Ramirez's actions look very sloppy or makes them look very questionable.
Plus, Ramirez was obviously more than physically injured by what Molly did to him. There's more going on with Ramirez than what has been openly stated.
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I agree, something is up with Ramirez, the obvious is he is infested with the Nemesis.. To which
the answer would be, that is too obvious, or can human wizards even be infested with Nemesis? Maybe not, but he has taken a lot of blows of late, both physical and emotional. This makes him vulnerable to being corrupted, question is, by whom?
One other thought I had reading your post having recently read "David Copperfield," when I was struck as to how dense and poor judge of people young David was, not unlike Harry.. Yeah, I know Harry was named after the magician, but he also has a lot in common with the original David Copperfield, both were orphaned, both suffered abuse, etc.
Harry should have mentioned that Chandler's description of Harry's day left out his meeting with the two current KotC and one former KotC. That by itself goes against the narrative that Harry was consorting with nefarious characters all day. Perhaps even more glaring, Harry could have asked, "If you were following me around, why didn't you help me and Senior Council member McCoy when we were attacked by Outsiders today? You must have seen that after I visited Justine, I didn't leave immediately. I was checking for magical trace energy outside of her apartment when McCoy appeared. We had a brief discussion before a herd of cornerhounds came after us. It would have been nice if there had been some wardens around to help out."
Not unlike David Copperfield, Harry was so taken aback that his friends could turn on him, he was unable to defend himself and too honorable to tell them it was Murphy and not Lara that he had sex with earlier in the day. Nor at that point, in spite of his previous clashes with them can he conceive
that he was being set up by someone on the White Council. Another scene from the series you might want to bring up is in Proven Guilty when Harry politically out maneuvers Langtree in front of the Senior Council to save Molly.. It is made clear that there that there will be consequences at some point down the line.. I think that is what we are seeing now.
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I still think Chandler doesn't smell right.
Drakul just makes him fall into a portal to elsewhere/nowhere rather than kill him for food or a new recruit? Bad guy.
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I still think Chandler doesn't smell right.
Drakul just makes him fall into a portal to elsewhere/nowhere rather than kill him for food or a new recruit? Bad guy.
I've had the exact same thought. It would be quite inconvenient from a story telling perspective to make Yoshino or Wild Bill the bad guy, seeing as they were both killed by Drakul, so that leaves Ramirez or Chandler. I favored Chandler as the traitor until I realized that Ramirez was probably the only one of the wardens present who could track Harry all day. The only one who could compile a report of what Harry had been up to.
I could be wrong. We could be told later that Ramirez had some way of transferring the tracking spell so all of the wardens could take turns following Harry, then it could very well be Chandler. I think Jim has hinted that Chandler will appear in Mirror Mirror. If that happens then this question might get answered.
Even if Chandler does turn out to be the bad guy, that doesn't negate the fact the Ramirez has taken a bad turn. By that, I don't mean he's necessarily turned to the dark side. It could be Ramirez has been traumatized to the point where he's becoming a younger version of Morgan. Becoming harder, less tolerant and more likely see a threat that needs to be removed rather than a friend who needs to be reasoned with.
Now that I think about this scenario, when Warden Morgan died the Merlin lost his right hand man. It would make sense for Langtry to be looking for a replacement. Someone like Ramirez might be a perfect candidate for the Merlin to recruit.
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Now that I think about this scenario, when Warden Morgan died the Merlin lost his right hand man. It would make sense for Langtry to be looking for a replacement. Someone like Ramirez might be a perfect candidate for the Merlin to recruit.
Which fits nicely with Ramirez being hurt both physically and emotionally in more ways than one by the Lady of Winter.. And who might Carlos blame for Molly's current status? Harry, so be open to anything Langtree said negative about him.. It also fits with what I said about the scene in Proven Guilty where Harry bested Langtree politically, thus seen as a threat to be removed at some point by Langtree.
I would be surprised if Chandler turns out to be the bad guy.
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I would be surprised if Chandler turns out to be the bad guy.
Dunno: Jim seems awfully fond of the posh British accent = bad guy trope!
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Dunno: Jim seems awfully fond of the posh British accent = bad guy trope!
Yeah, or is it because that's the easiest to write? As far as the Corner Hounds go, Justine was inhabited by a Walker, so it may not be a huge mystery after all as to who called up the hounds..
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... As far as the Corner Hounds go, Justine was inhabited by a Walker, so it may not be a huge mystery after all as to who called up the hounds..
I don't think it works that way.
Outsider-summoning needs mortal free will; being possessed by a Walker and made to perform a ritual is pretty much the opposite of that.
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I don't think it works that way.
Outsider-summoning needs mortal free will; being possessed by a Walker and made to perform a ritual is pretty much the opposite of that.
You're are right, here is a little tin hat zinger maybe, who are the people in Justine's circle friends? It is possible from her job at Casa Raith that she might have hooked up with occult types who unwittingly were used by her? Or at least didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing. If I remember correctly from Blood Rites, of the three women who called up the Outsider, only Madge [I believe that was her name] understood what they were really doing. What happened here may have been a variation of that.
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Cowl has controlled at least three sorcerers in the Files in Chicago alone. The surviving one who abducted the pups summoned up giant monkeys throwing flaming poop, so Cowl has at least one human mortal Sorceror on speed dial who is good at summoning and has likely been polished by him for exactly this type of task. Yet another reason to consider Nameless (a scion) is Cowl. He has been training black magic practitioners in Chicago for years whilst Nameless has been practicing law in the same city.
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You're are right, here is a little tin hat zinger maybe, who are the people in Justine's circle friends? It is possible from her job at Casa Raith that she might have hooked up with occult types who unwittingly were used by her? Or at least didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing. If I remember correctly from Blood Rites, of the three women who called up the Outsider, only Madge [I believe that was her name] understood what they were really doing. What happened here may have been a variation of that.
Cowl has controlled at least three sorcerers in the Files in Chicago alone. The surviving one who abducted the pups summoned up giant monkeys throwing flaming poop, so Cowl has at least one human mortal Sorceror on speed dial who is good at summoning and has likely been polished by him for exactly this type of task. Yet another reason to consider Nameless (a scion) is Cowl. He has been training black magic practitioners in Chicago for years whilst Nameless has been practicing law in the same city.
Let's be clear, though: we don't know that this "who" matters. As quoted above, it could have been some low-level mook, really; or Cowl himself, or another (possibly unidentified) Power-Player, making a Play; or anyone anywhere on the spectrum between "mook" and "Power Player".
I don't think we know if this detail matters until we know the broader implications... did this happen because someone was after Harry? Eb? Following them? Surveilling Justine?
Given the end-of-story revelation about Justine, my bet is that the connection is there; but we don't know what it is... For all we know, sexy Justine could have found some stupid-horny teenaged squib living in another aprtment in the building, and taught them the necessary rituals.
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Given the end-of-story revelation about Justine, my bet is that the connection is there; but we don't know what it is... For all we know, sexy Justine could have found some stupid-horny teenaged squib living in another aprtment in the building, and taught them the necessary rituals.
I don't disagree, I think it is the obvious connection.
Outsider-summoning needs mortal free will; being possessed by a Walker and made to perform a ritual is pretty much the opposite of that.
But do we know that for sure? It has been a while since I read Blood Rites and the bits I carefully reread several times was the scenes between Eb and Harry.. My bad, I do remember that it takes a mortal, but does it also need free will? I just don't remember that bit, and of the three woman who summoned the Outsider, while you can say Madge used her free will to do it, but did the other two women? For that matter, how much did Madge really understand and could you say her free will was also compromised? At the very least due to lack of understanding the other women's free will was compromised. And there are examples, i.e. it was the basis for Uriel's interference in Harry's suicide. If HWWB was able to convince her that Harry was a threat to herself, Thomas, and more importantly the baby, Justine could very well of her own free will do what was needed to summon the Corner Hounds.. Come to think of it, how did Justine get possessed to begin with?
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... But do we know that for sure?
We haven't seen it explicitly stated, that I recall.
But we have seen throughout the series how much mortal Choice and mortal Free Will is a cornerstone of the Dresdenverse. I cannot really believe that "Opening the Outer Gates" is an exception.
Also (logistically speaking) it can't be that easy, or the VERY first thing any Outsider would do, when it got to the Mortal world, would be to possess a mortal and summon up a crapton more Outsiders, who in turn would scatter widely and each then possess another mortal and summon yet more, who themselves scatter & etc etc etc until the flood of Outsiders met on the far side of the globe... BigApocalypticTrilogyTheEnd.
... I just don't remember that bit, and of the three woman who summoned the Outsider, while you can say Madge used her free will to do it, but did the other two women? For that matter, how much did Madge really understand and could you say her free will was also compromised? At the very least due to lack of understanding the other women's free will was compromised...
I don't think it takes perfectly-uncompromised free will, perfectly-informed consent.
Indeed, from what we know of the Dresden Files, nobody(*) within Creation has "perfectly informed consent" regarding the Outsiders! You just need to know that you're summoning Something Bad, to do Something Bad; and be willing to do that.
... If HWWB was able to convince her that Harry was a threat to herself, Thomas, and more importantly the baby, Justine could very well of her own free will do what was needed to summon the Corner Hounds. Come to think of it, how did Justine get possessed to begin with?
I think Justine is too clued-in to fall for such a lie. Harry is the only person who believes in Thomas' "innocence" (in the sense of "a rational excuse for doing what he did"), the only person with any chance of getting Thomas freed.
As for "how" she got Nemfected: we obviously don't know, but my bet is that Papa Raith's "private collection" was somehow involved, and Justine (as Lara's "helper") was exposed. I think there's likely more Outsider magic there, both other spells and "magic items" (akin to Morgana's Athame (though not necessarily that strong)).
(*) At least, virtually nobody within Creation
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I don't think lack of understanding constitutes a compromising of free will. People do stupid and dangerous things they don't understand all the time without being under malign influence. Bad choices are just bad.
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I don't think lack of understanding constitutes a compromising of free will. People do stupid and dangerous things they don't understand all the time without being under malign influence. Bad choices are just bad.
It is true that bad choices are still bad choices, and people do do stupid things. That's one thing, but if a person is given wrong information or is lied to and thinks he or she is making the best choice based on bad information or lies, but wouldn't have made that choice if he or she got the right information or the truth.. Does that not mean that his or her free will was screwed with? Harry chose to suicide based on the lies that Lasciel whispered in his ear. Because he made his free choice based on her lies, Uriel was allowed to step in because since his choice was based on lies, it really wasn't a free choice. I know, this stuff gives me a headache too... ???
We haven't seen it explicitly stated, that I recall.
But we have seen throughout the series how much mortal Choice and mortal Free Will is a cornerstone of the Dresdenverse. I cannot really believe that "Opening the Outer Gates" is an exception.
Also (logistically speaking) it can't be that easy, or the VERY first thing any Outsider would do, when it got to the Mortal world, would be to possess a mortal and summon up a crapton more Outsiders, who in turn would scatter widely and each then possess another mortal and summon yet more, who themselves scatter & etc etc etc until the flood of Outsiders met on the far side of the globe... BigApocalypticTrilogyTheEnd.
I don't think its that easy for an Outsider to possess a mortal to begin with.. Influence maybe, remember way back in Storm Front when Harry almost peed his pants because he saw or thought he saw He Who Walks Behind following one of those kids on Third Eye in the police station? I think it is more of a gray area and Jim is keeping it vague on purpose... Ask him and he is going to say, "I ain't a going to tell you..."
I think Justine is too clued-in to fall for such a lie. Harry is the only person who believes in Thomas' "innocence" (in the sense of "a rational excuse for doing what he did"), the only person with any chance of getting Thomas freed.
Yet she told him a whole boat load of lies when he went to see her in the apartment didn't she. Why did she do that? To throw him off the scent of what really happened, and it almost worked up until the last minute when they were almost to the island and Harry figured it out. He believed her up until that moment because he too believed that she was too clued in to fall for lies, loved Thomas and believed in his innocence. In the end his star born "spidy sense" tipped him off to the presence of He Who Walks Beside.
As for "how" she got Nemfected: we obviously don't know, but my bet is that Papa Raith's "private collection" was somehow involved, and Justine (as Lara's "helper") was exposed. I think there's likely more Outsider magic there, both other spells and "magic items" (akin to Morgana's Athame (though not necessarily that strong)).
I think it happened on the island when Maeve got killed at the end of Cold Days. If the Winter Lady Mantle can jump to the nearest vessel as it did into Molly, why can't the Neminfection? It wants to survive also, and poor Justine became it's new vessel.
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Does that not mean that his or her free will was screwed with? Harry chose to suicide based on the lies that Lasciel whispered in his ear. Because he made his free choice based on her lies, Uriel was allowed to step in because since his choice was based on lies, it really wasn't a free choice. I know, this stuff gives me a headache too... ???
No, actually, that one's easy. It's not the "his choice was based on a lie" that matters, it is "who told him the lie upon which he acted" that does. As long as the choice is made due to a Fallen's direct manipulation/involvement, Uriel gets to interfere (to the same extent as the Fallen did), due to the White God's stipulations. If Mab had told him the same thing Lasciel did, and Harry acted upon that the same way, Uriel wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it.
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No, actually, that one's easy. It's not the "his choice was based on a lie" that matters, it is "who told him the lie upon which he acted" that does. As long as the choice is made due to a Fallen's direct manipulation/involvement, Uriel gets to interfere (to the same extent as the Fallen did), due to the White God's stipulations. If Mab had told him the same thing Lasciel did, and Harry acted upon that the same way, Uriel wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it.
I'm not so sure about that, though she may not be quite on par with an angel, fallen or arch, she is pretty powerful. And actually she did lie to Harry, which also contributed to his decision to suicide.
That's why Uriel's seven words were so important because they changed Harry's perception of what he could and couldn't do as Winter Knight. Lasciel may have tipped the balance by telling Harry everything was his fault, but a big factor in his decision was his fear of becoming Mab's monster, another Slate. Harry actually thought that being Mab's Winter Knight meant that he'd given up his right to make choices. It was a sacrifice he was willing to make because he wanted to save Maggie, but he didn't want to become a monster either, so he suicided. Uriel's seven words told him that Mab was lying, he still has free will or choices.
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... Does that not mean that his or her free will was screwed with? Harry chose to suicide based on the lies that Lasciel whispered in his ear...
The Fallen did not merely tell a lie.
Specifically, the Fallen told a devastatingly-effective lie, using a time calculated to be a moment profound weakness and a specific piece of self-criticism Harry regularly tells himself; and they did so on consecrated ground, where the victim could reasonably expect to be free from malign spirits.
It is (as Uriel points out) the kind of lie, and a delivery of the lie, that only a Fallen Angel could have managed; and even Fallen, the angelic beings are "held to a higher standard."
Uriel, in turn, does exactly the same, in reverse: he tells the truth (in seven words); he tells it at a moment when Harry profoundly needed some encouragement, at a moment when he thought he was on his own (laying in the depths of Demonreach, in the lap of the Queen of Wicked Faeries... in other words, far beyond even the remote chance of outside help).
... Yet she told him a whole boat load of lies when he went to see her in the apartment didn't she ...
I don't think Justine told any lies, no. That was Nemesis speaking, still hiding behind the mask, still pretending to be Justine.
... I think it happened on the island when Maeve got killed at the end of Cold Days ...
I suppose it can't be ruled out, but I doubt it.
... If the Winter Lady Mantle can jump to the nearest vessel as it did into Molly, why can't the Neminfection?
The Mantles are part of Creation, they are supposed to work that way.
Nemesis is from Outside; it isn't supposed to exist at all; and it certainly should not easily slip inside someone. Nemesis, I think, needs some degree of initial buy-in; it needs someone to act ambitiously, or fearfully, or otherwise open some channel for moral suasion...
Aurora wanted to "end the cycles of needless suffering" and Nemesis offered a way to do that.
Lea wanted more power, likely wanted to become Winter's Queen; and Nemesis offered that power.
Maeve wanted to prove she was better than her mother, smarter; wanted her mother to acknowledge that Maeve was good enough; Maeve thought being able to lie would let her outmaneuver Mab, and Nemesis gave her that ability.
These were Nemesis' routes in, the temptations offered.
I do not believe Nemesis can simply "jump into" anyone without the (prospective) victim accepting some offer, making some choice. I don't think Justine was given any choice on the island.
I think the critical moment for Justine happened (offscreen) sometime before White Night. Justine had been psychically damaged, and was unable to be with Thomas. I think something in the Raith manor/treasury/whatever was a Nemvector, and offered to help Justine rebuild her psyche... to help Thomas and/or to be with him again... and that was the temptation she could not withstand.
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The Fallen did not merely tell a lie.
Specifically, the Fallen told a devastatingly-effective lie, using a time calculated to be a moment profound weakness and a specific piece of self-criticism Harry regularly tells himself; and they did so on consecrated ground, where the victim could reasonably expect to be free from malign spirits.
It is (as Uriel points out) the kind of lie, and a delivery of the lie, that only a Fallen Angel could have managed; and even Fallen, the angelic beings are "held to a higher standard."
Uriel, in turn, does exactly the same, in reverse: he tells the truth (in seven words); he tells it at a moment when Harry profoundly needed some encouragement, at a moment when he thought he was on his own (laying in the depths of Demonreach, in the lap of the Queen of Wicked Faeries... in other words, far beyond even the remote chance of outside help).
True, but as you point out, timing is everything! Uriel could have told the truth at any time, but he waited until Harry learned a valuable lesson, and just when Harry was sinking into depression again because he woke up in Mab's arms and thought he'd have to follow her orders no matter what.. That's when Uriel restored his sense of free will with his seven words, among other things telling him what Mab had told him were lies. It was the combo of what Lasciel told him, and what he had to chose to do to save little Maggie, he thought he was giving up his free will by becoming Mab's Winter Knight..
I don't think Justine told any lies, no. That was Nemesis speaking, still hiding behind the mask, still pretending to be Justine.
But that's the point, kind of like Luccio under the influence of Peabody ink, only on steroids! Nemesis may have been behind it, but the lies came out of Justine's mouth. She most likely couldn't fight it, but until they got to the island Harry didn't know that. While her actions may not have been her own, what came out of her mouth, and her actions was still her own as far as those who knew and loved her were concerned. That's why the plan by Nemesis was so clever, it made complete use of the trust of those who loved her had in her. Of course Justine wanted to visit the island and be near Thomas, that's no lie, but HWWB also wanted on the island for a different reason.
I suppose it can't be ruled out, but I doubt it.
I think it plausible because that would put her in the same area as Nemesis. I doubt that Nemesis would take defeat that easily. It is just logical that Nemesis would have a plan "B." It isn't the first time either, when Lea was maneuvered into taking the infected Knife failed because when she felt symptoms she confessed to Mab, which should have ended the plan... Only Neither Mab nor Lea understood in time that it was the Knife that was infected, thus Maeve who was vulnerable to begin with, became infected beyond curing and Nemesis's plan almost succeeded.. That was foiled, but there was plan "C" waiting in the wings, Justine.. Through her Thomas, Harry were both manipulated, and through them the White Court, White Council, and Winter Court were all pulled in.. And again, it almost succeeded, except Harry finally realized at the last moment on the boat..
The Mantles are part of Creation, they are supposed to work that way.
Nemesis is from Outside; it isn't supposed to exist at all; and it certainly should not easily slip inside someone. Nemesis, I think, needs some degree of initial buy-in; it needs someone to act ambitiously, or fearfully, or otherwise open some channel for moral suasion...
How do we know that Nemesis isn't supposed to exist? Who is to say that the Outside isn't a part of Creation, it exists doesn't it?
I do not believe Nemesis can simply "jump into" anyone without the (prospective) victim accepting some offer, making some choice. I don't think Justine was given any choice on the island.
I don't think in this case "choice" works the way you think it does. I think Nemesis is much more subtle than that, more like a low grade infection at first, something Justine wouldn't notice. A lot like a shadow of a fallen angel works on the mind of it's host. Remember if it wasn't for Butters, Harry wouldn't have been aware of the Shadow of Lasciel. So subtly whispering first perhaps, a longing for a child, to give Thomas a child, normal feelings, but then escalating to all consuming.. That will drive a person to a lot of things before they realize what is happening. No, Nemesis never gave Justine a choice, by the time the events of Peace Talks began, she was merely a passenger along for the ride being used as HWWB's mouthpiece and doing it's bidding.
I think the critical moment for Justine happened (offscreen) sometime before White Night. Justine had been psychically damaged, and was unable to be with Thomas. I think something in the Wraith manor/treasury/whatever was a Nemvector, and offered to help Justine rebuild her psyche... to help Thomas and/or to be with him again... and that was the temptation she could not withstand.
Maybe, but either way the infection was never overt.
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... I don't think in this case "choice" works the way you think it does. I think Nemesis is much more subtle than that, more like a low grade infection at first, something Justine wouldn't notice. A lot like a shadow of a fallen angel works on the mind of it's host ...
Yes, I think the Denarian Shadows are the closest model we have to Nemfection. Honestly, I doubt that they work identically; but until we have more info, the Shadows seems to be our best working model for Nemfection.
And the Shadows cannot just "appear" in someone's mind.
The target has to decide to pick up one of the Blackened Denarii.
Nicodemus wanted to recruit Harry... desired it reasonably strongly, I think: he went to a fair amount of effort to arrange the running-water-confinement. When the initial effort failed, he later tossed one of the Denarii onto a KotC's property (out of his control) (I mean, that's pretty win-win for Nic, Harry or Michael's son (except see below)).
The thing is -- if implanting a Shadow were as casual & easily-done as all that, he just could have duct-taped the Denarius to Harry's back. SkinContactBoomDone.
But Harry -- in Michael's yard -- could (should!) have just stomped his booted foot down on the coin (it's how I (and everyone I know) handles "dropped coin rolling around" ... and a quick move with the feet (sometimes a stomp, sometimes a block) is also how we all handle "small dangerous thing at ground level, near small vulnerable child/pet/etc). So Nic's gamble with Lasciel's Coin was actually kind of a long-shot: the odds-on favorite for Harry's move wouldn't have opened him up to the Shadow.
The point here -- with regard to Nemfection, and Nemesis host-hopping -- is that there are lots of signs that it's just not that easy. If you kill a KotBD, the Fallen within their host cannot just bop into a new host and say, "fetch me my Coin, lackey!" The (prospective) host has to proactively pick up the Coin.
So, I think Justine had to do something, assent somehow. Not just be standing in the wrong place at the right time.
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And the Shadows cannot just "appear" in someone's mind.
The target has to decide to pick up one of the Blackened Denarii.
Yes, picking up the coin is the difference for the Shadow of the Fallen, however I might point out that Nemesis is very careful as to whom it picks as it's targets to infect. Lea was ambitious and wanted more power, this made her the perfect target for the infected Knife. However that was a slight miscalculation, Lea while ambitious, wasn't stupid and knows her Queen.. Once she felt the symptoms she confessed to Mab and got put on ice. Maeve on the other hand had been struggling for years with her place as Lady, had "Mommy" issues, and sibling jealousy, she was totally vulnerable and Nemesis took full advantage. Not sure what issues Aurora or Catsyth had, not enough is known of either and they were already infected when we first meet them. Justine on the other hand suffered from mental illness and had powerful connections, easy to see how she'd be a target. The question becomes, what is the vector for the infection? The Knife was in the case of Lea and company, but we don't know about the others.
The point here -- with regard to Nemfection, and Nemesis host-hopping -- is that there are lots of signs that it's just not that easy. If you kill a KotBD, the Fallen within their host cannot just bop into a new host and say, "fetch me my Coin, lackey!" The (prospective) host has to proactively pick up the Coin.
That I think is a gray area, because when we first meet the Knights of the Cross and Denarians, on or two are killed and their coins released... Harry innocently goes to pick it up and if I remember correctly is stopped by Shiro, who warns Harry not to touch it, then carefully picks it up in a special hanky for lack of a better word. So I think you can be affected just by touching a coin even if you don't know what it is. Now it could be the Knights knew that Harry was a target all along and there for were extra careful about him not coming into contact with one. On the other hand, touching a coin is how a Shadow of the Fallen is introduced into your mind.. We've seen how it can create havoc with illusions, without a host knowing it.. Who is to say a random pick up is as good as a targeted pick up?
So, I think Justine had to do something, assent somehow. Not just be standing in the wrong place at the right time.
I don't think it was a matter of her standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.. Or rather it was, but more her being a vulnerable person standing in the wrong place at the wrong time if that makes any sense? Say you go to a play, the person who bought the ticket next to you happens to have COVID, wrong place, wrong time, but you have decent immunity, vaccinated so don't get sick. Or you go to the play, the person who happens to sit beside you has COVID, you are over weight and have COPD, you catch it and die... In both cases you were sitting in the wrong seat at the wrong time, but in one case you were more vulnerable to infection than the other with very different outcomes. We know that Nemesis isn't just any dumb virus, it carefully selects it's hosts for maximum effect.
So consider, when Maeve is shot, Nemesis is released from her body, of the beings present, who was most likely mentally and emotionally most vulnerable? Justine. So I agree that it isn't just a simple matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time to get infected with Nemesis, it can also be true that being in the wrong place at the wrong time with vulnerabilities will get you infected... Both can be true at the same time.
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... Not sure what issues Aurora or Catsyth had, not enough is known of either and they were already infected when we first meet them ...
As I wrote above: I think Aurora was tormented by the "cycles of suffering" between Summer/Winter, the constant warfare with humanity suffering not only Summer's cruel heat & stuff like Malaria, Ebola, and the other severe warm-location diseases, but also the rigors of Winter, the cold and the hunger and the hardship &c.
That (I surmise) was Nemesis' "temptation" to her, the way past her defenses... the chance to end the cycles.
It certainly seemed her prime motivation there at the end... so why not just as much Nemesis' "route in" ?
I don't think Cat Sith was nemfected when we met him; there was the scene at the Svartalf compound, where Sith didn't answer when Harry summoned him; that, I think was when he was being turned.
As to how/why: I think it was being Harry's "batsman," having to obey a mortal that way... Think about it:
An obedient cat? ::)
An obedient... malk??!? :o
The Eldest Malk... obedient to a mortal!!! (we need... like... a stabby-murder emoji here)
I think the rage and frustration, with no recourse or outlet, was Cat Sith's weakness for Nemesis to exploit. The chance to Kill Harry Dresden.
... That I think is a gray area, because when we first meet the Knights of the Cross and Denarians, on or two are killed and their coins released... Harry innocently goes to pick it up and if I remember correctly is stopped by Shiro, who warns Harry not to touch it, then carefully picks it up in a special hanky for lack of a better word. So I think you can be affected just by touching a coin even if you don't know what it is.
Ignorance isn't necessarily any defense, no. But you have to (at the least) intentionally pick it up.
Harry was I think *particularly* vulnerable, there in the alleyway with Ursiel's Coin rolling loose: he is a magus, "one of the wise." He is supposed to take care, think before he acts.
Grabbing a random magical gewgaw, something associated with a monster so terrible that all three KotC's had gathered to take it down? That is sheer arrogance... it is Pride, going before a Fall. Harry Dresden, choosing to pick something up in his own Pride of Power, his "I can deal with this" arrogance. Oh, yes... Harry was very much at risk, there.
Similarly the KotC's and other clued-in folk -- they have to take great care; because choosing to be careless is enough of a Choice to leave them open to the Fallen within.
... So consider, when Maeve is shot, Nemesis is released from her body, of the beings present, who was most likely mentally and emotionally most vulnerable? Justine. So I agree that it isn't just a simple matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time to get infected with Nemesis, it can also be true that being in the wrong place at the wrong time with vulnerabilities will get you infected... Both can be true at the same time.
Again, I go back to the Denarian Shadows. If someone dies with a Shadow inside them, that Shadow also dies; it isn't "released" to find a new host (at least, that's what Lash told Harry; but it also fits with our understanding of what a "shadow" is -- not a genuine entity but an "imprint" in the mind of one specific host -- when the host dies (really dead, not mostly dead) so does the imprint).
I (strongly) suspect that the multiple instances of Nemesis follow that same principle -- if one of their hosts dies, so does that specific instance of Nemesis.
I honestly have no idea if there's a "Real" instance of Nemesis, a singular being who can be killed really dead; or if it's just a bunch of parallel instances each of whom can act as the "full" entity, launching new Nemfections and acting with full power.
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As I wrote above: I think Aurora was tormented by the "cycles of suffering" between Summer/Winter, the constant warfare with humanity suffering not only Summer's cruel heat & stuff like Malaria, Ebola, and the other severe warm-location diseases, but also the rigors of Winter, the cold and the hunger and the hardship &c.
She may have been tormented as you say, by those cycles of suffering, but I don't think that was it. My own opinion now that I think about it, is she didn't like the fact that Winter was top dog in this cycle of power, as in having the main responsibility of guarding the Outer Gates. Could be wrong there, and Summer Knight deserves yet another reading to get the complexities of Fae Court politics, which have real ramifications as we get deeper into the series.
Ignorance isn't necessarily any defense, no. But you have to (at the least) intentionally pick it up.
Harry was I think *particularly* vulnerable, there in the alleyway with Ursiel's Coin rolling loose: he is a magus, "one of the wise." He is supposed to take care, think before he acts.
People pay for such "ignorance" every day, sometimes with their life. Wizards are not born wise, wisdom comes from education and experience. Harry's wizardly education is sketchy at best, who and what Denarians are were not one of the subjects that Justin taught, and Eb most likely never touched on that subject. If Harry knew and understood what a Denarian was he would have avoided if he could that soul gaze that he experienced inadvertently the first time he met one. That last "experience" underscored his resistance to Lasciel later, he wised up, you might say to what happens if you play games with the Fallen. However while you can argue that Harry should have known better, an ordinary person such as you and I wouldn't, and if there was something about us that the Fallen felt was worth exploiting, you can bet that shadow would be in our heads tempting away...
Again, I go back to the Denarian Shadows. If someone dies with a Shadow inside them, that Shadow also dies; it isn't "released" to find a new host (at least, that's what Lash told Harry; but it also fits with our understanding of what a "shadow" is -- not a genuine entity but an "imprint" in the mind of one specific host -- when the host dies (really dead, not mostly dead) so does the imprint).
But the Shadow of one of the Fallen isn't the same as Nemesis.. The Shadow is the psychic energy being of the Fallen trapped in the coin, what the exact nature of Nemesis is, is still unclear. It has shown itself to act like an infection that can contaminate an object like the Knife and cause insanity, but did Cat Sith, Aurora, and Justine come in contact with an object? It is unlikely they had contact with the Knife. Speaking of which, at one point I remember Harry spotting that same Knife in Mab's belt. That's why I don't think she was simply hiding in the ice along side of Lea in Proven Guilty, Mab was taking the cure herself just in case she too was infected. However back to your original point about ignorance and wizards being one of the wise, how is it that Mab, the thousand year old Queen of Winter, chief defender of the Outer Gates didn't see until it was too late that it was the Knife that was spreading infection? One answer, the Knife is an object of power, and power blinds us to a lot of things including danger. Justine is different from the other infected individuals though, she was actually possessed by an Outsider.. Or that is how it appears.
Grabbing a random magical gewgaw, something associated with a monster so terrible that all three KotC's had gathered to take it down? That is sheer arrogance... it is Pride, going before a Fall. Harry Dresden, choosing to pick something up in his own Pride of Power, his "I can deal with this" arrogance. Oh, yes... Harry was very much at risk, there.
That was the case at Michael's house, I agree, but not when he meets Denarians for the first time, he had no knowledge of the coins or how they worked.
I honestly have no idea if there's a "Real" instance of Nemesis, a singular being who can be killed really dead; or if it's just a bunch of parallel instances each of whom can act as the "full" entity, launching new Nemfections and acting with full power.
Eventually if Jim ever finishes the series and if you and l live long enough to still be able to read it, we will find out....
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I disagree on the timing of when Justine was infected by Nemesis. If fact, I'm going to start a separate thread on this topic.
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As to how/why: I think it was being Harry's "batsman," having to obey a mortal that way... Think about it:
An obedient cat? ::)
An obedient... malk??!? :o
The Eldest Malk... obedient to a mortal!!! (we need... like... a stabby-murder emoji here)
I wonder if he wasn't already on the list of likely/desired hosts. But I think what Harry did was much worse. A Cat Sith that doesn't immediately kill and accepted the challenge of NOT killing mortals?
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I wonder if he wasn't already on the list of likely/desired hosts. But I think what Harry did was much worse. A Cat Sith that doesn't immediately kill and accepted the challenge of NOT killing mortals?
Nemesis doesn't have to kill though to be dangerous, Cat Sith didn't have to kill mortals to be dangerous, but he could spy.
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I wonder if he wasn't already on the list of likely/desired hosts ...
Cat Sith was Eldest Malk; I suspect any/all "Eldest" would be desirable, to Nemesis.
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Cat Sith was Eldest Malk; I suspect any/all "Eldest" would be desirable, to Nemesis.
Exactly, as a spy if nothing else.