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Messages - Thork

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DF Reference Collection / Re: Cold Days Spoilers- Who isn't your Nemesis?
« on: November 29, 2012, 08:45:53 PM »
I don't think that we will ever find out if Nemesis is of TWG's creation or not, because I don't think we will ever truly see TWG or get a real scope for His power.

We kinda have to, though. We're already on a collision course for an answer to this question, just with the Denarians. Why was Nicodemus so surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor? Was he surprised because it meant his other Denarians were "infected" (i.e., Denarians can be evil without being infected, i.e., not all fallen angels are infected, i.e., Lucifer != Nemesis), or just because it meant Lucifer was running a plot he didn't know about? Lucifer would certainly have the metaphysical oomph to mount an attack on Arctis Tor!

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DF Reference Collection / Re: Cold Days Spoilers- Who isn't your Nemesis?
« on: November 29, 2012, 08:40:40 PM »
The biggest set of questions I have right now revolve around Lucifer.

Lucifer's traditionally referred to as "the Adversary" and has a history of corrupting people by granting them free will, just like Nemesis. He's been consistently off-screen in the books so far, but he definitely exists.

So the big question is, then -- did the Adversary/Nemesis corrupt Lucifer, or is Lucifer "The Adversary"? It's an important question because it also speaks to the power of the White God over Outsiders -- are they truly Outside his Creation? Outside his Plan, or part of it? If "The Adversary" is Lucifer, then the Outsiders are, at least theoretically, part of God's Plan; if Lucifer, and the demonic evils he represents and leads,  are a separate evil from the outsiders, then maybe the Outsiders aren't part of God's Plan, which is terrifying on a whole 'nother level.

In other words, is what happened to Molly part of God's Plan, or a corruption of it?

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 09, 2012, 02:37:27 AM »
There are things we know the Fae don't clearly understand. For example, I doubt Mab has all that great an understanding of Summer, possibly including things like "summer emotions" of joy, hope, etc.

I expect that's part of why Mab can't quite predict Harry -- she can't quite "get" a lot of human emotions, just like Bob has a hard time understanding the concepts of Good and Evil.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 07, 2012, 04:51:54 PM »
I definitely agree insofar as I think it's very, very possible, even likely, that the "Circle" / "Black Council" is not anywhere near as unified or cohesive a group as we may expect them to be. Martin's quote on how every time the White Council achieved even a minor stalemate, the entire Red Court dissolved into horribly divisive infighting, makes me strongly suspect that a similar mechanic is occurring between members of "The Circle," whomsoever they are.

Hell, if we're correct that the Erlking handed out the Hexenwolf belts, then perhaps Cowl's goal in Dead Beat wasn't so much the assumption of power per se, but just to take out a rival member of said Circle (the Erlking) by consuming his power necromantically.

EDIT: it's possible that many of the plots we've seen so far are actually competing power plays by members of the Circle against each other.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 07, 2012, 05:14:11 AM »
The way I read "what stalks us all," I think Lea is speaking broadly.

If "all' means the  fae collectively? Perhaps the fomor collectively, perhaps Death, perhaps Cold Iron (perhaps as personified by Ferrovax?) Mortal technology? 

The impression I get here is that Lea is talking about something more powerful than the Fae as a group, or more powerful than the fae+humanity as a group. Something more powerful than Winter and Summer as concepts. Entropy, death, some primal principle.

Or maybe she just means the Circle / Black Council.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 07, 2012, 04:12:01 AM »
"Trying to overthrow Mab" is one idea, but that theory depends on the athame acting as a corrupting influence, so I don't buy it.  "Fighting--and losing to--something powerful and Outsidery" better fits the data, in my opinion.

There's textual support for this:

Quote
Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. “I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Foolish. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways.”
 

"What stalks us all" is pretty ambiguous. Death? Mortality? Who is "us all" -- all Fae? All Fae and humans together, since she's talking to Harry? The Walkers?

Judging from Harry's comments during the final fight that is because he was afraid of it. The fetch feeds on fear and the more fear you feel the less successful your magic is. I'll look for some quotes when I haves some more time.

Yeah, I think one valid reading of that is that Summer's fire gave Harry the mental "warmth" to charge his magic and wipe out his fear; not so much that Captain Kudzu was vulnerable to Summer Fire specifically, as a thing, but that Harry was able to defeat the Fetch because he was infused with Summer Fire and it helped him blank out his fear, charged his magic, refreshed his mana points, whatever, etc.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 06, 2012, 01:26:31 PM »

How do you get a Fetch to come to Earth?  Well, you need to summon it with a load of fear.  Enter Madrigal, puppet of the Black Council.  As Madrigal says, he was invited to come to the convention a year previous.  ...Right around the time the Darkhallow failed?

I'm not sure the Black Council was "desperate", or that the Darkhallow was their primary goal. I do think their apparent goal at this point is destabilization and chaos -- knocking over and weakening as many of the big supernatural players as possible.

Here's a question though: was Molly a target of opportunity, or the original plan? A horror convention with a Malvora in attendance is a great way to send in fetches to Chicago and give Harry something to do, but who knew -- a year in advance -- that Molly would be developing magical talent?  There is that quote in Grave Peril where Lea asks for Michael's eldest child, but that could be general "fae ask for eldest child" trope, not specific evidence.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 02:50:47 PM »
Yeah. When you add in that there's no "void" described around the Scarecrow, and that summer fire DOES reach him, it seems more that he's just filled with "cold cold power" from ancient Winter.  I think the fetch/outsider connection is the core error assumption that Jim was commenting on in Neurovore's theory.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 02:42:24 PM »
Yet:
That doesn't sound like he's bulling through magic.

Edit: could anyone get the quote in Hereot when harry's magic is blocked? I don't have the text.

Quote
The grendelkin hadn’t been kidding about knowing counter-magic, though. All that naked force hit him and just sort of slid off him, like water pouring around a stone. It only drove him back about two steps—which was room enough to let me drop to one knee and swing my staff again.
 

The problem with the "ocean of cold, cold power" quote is that it's equally interpretable as "outsider immunity" and "ancient winter fae immunity." We already know the Scarecrow is an ancient, powerful, Winter fae, so that seems the simpler explanation.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 01:00:28 PM »
Noted, so time isn't even consistent if you stay in the one place in the NN.....

Yeah, especially at Arctis Tor. It's implied (but not proven) that Maeve, working with Lily, altered the timeflow while they were going through, but who knows what it was before they arrived; Mab could've been holding the whole place in stasis relative to Harry's Prime Material Plane for the whole past year. Or the Hellfire attack could've taken place just minutes before he arrived, relative to the real world.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 12:12:22 PM »
Time isn't THAT screwy in the NN, even if it happened a year before PG, it would have been cleaned up by then. And the smell of Hellfire would probably be gone in half a day, tops.

Harry actually says specifically otherwise:

Quote
“It must have been weeks,” Thomas said. “It takes that long for bones to get this clean.” “It’s all relative,” I said. “Time can pass at different rates in Faerie. These bones could have fallen a thousand years ago, by the local clock. Or twenty minutes ago.”

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 05:24:56 AM »
She has been trapped in the garden for years, and it was still smelling of sulfure at the broken gate. That doesn't seem to fit the timeframe.

EDIT: frankly, I find it maddening that after so many years, we still don't understand why Mab kidnapped Molly.

As to the first, it's the NeverNever. Theoretically the fight at Arctis Tor could've happened a hundred years prior to the start of the series.

I expect we'll find out more in Cold Days.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 03:12:45 AM »
Edit: Alternate Theory:

Quote
“Whoever called up these phages,” I said, “needed a way to guide them from the Nevernever to the physical world. They needed a beacon, someone who would resonate with a sympathetic vibe. Someone who, like the phages, wanted to make people feel fear.”

Butcher, Jim (2007-02-06). Proven Guilty (The Dresden Files, Book 8) (p. 270). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Lea sent the phages after Molly. We know from as early as Grave Peril that Lea wants Molly; she asks Michael Carpenter for his eldest child. She's high up in Winter and might reasonably be able to command fetches, as Mab's handmaiden and highest servitor.

The "Attack" on Arctis Tor was actually Lea with the Athame (and the Black Council?) attempting to rebel against Mab. Sure, that happened at least more than a year before (prior to Dead Beat, since Lea's imprisoned then) , but what's time in the NeverNever? Mab conquered the attack all on her ownsome, so no probs.

Of course this theory has the problem that Lea was imprisoned at the time, but perhaps she'd given standing orders to the fetches?

Hrm. Perhaps Lea had a standing bargain or deal of some kind that forced Mab to send the fetches.

Yes. But she's just making sure Harry pays his debt. Not kidnapping someone to force him to take more. I feel that if Mab was in the business of kidnapping people to get new debt, the WC woud try to stop her. Now you may say that she's too strong. In fact I'm sure that an alliance between the WC and Summer would be devastating for Winter.

Yeah, but the WC isn't going to rush to defend a budding warlock ! That just makes it fit even more! Molly's no longer an innocent, so nobody's going to defend her .. . except Harry. Or, well, her dad, and his cold iron magic supersword, so maybe this wasn't a perfect plan on her part after all . . . or maybe she planned on trading for the Sword. . .

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 02:46:07 AM »
I don't believe Mab is interested in a knight who took the job through blackmail. If that was the case there was no need to kidnapp Harry: she coud have tortured him until he accepts the job. Or kidnapped Murphy in Summer Knight.

Oh, she's blackmailing Harry in one sense or another from the moment she forces that letter opener through his hand. In this scenario, that particular blackmail would just have been an opportunity to do business, as it were, like Lea picking up Amorrachius.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.
« on: May 05, 2012, 02:36:19 AM »
Hrm, here's an idea:

What if Mab sent the Fetches to home in on Molly's magic -- precisely in order to make Harry *focus* on Molly's black magic, so that he could intervene early, before it sent her (and, with her, him, because he'd probably die defending her) off the deep end into severe warlockry and the sharp side of Morgan's chopper.

Mab's goal would just be "make Harry take Winter Knight" all along, but the Black Council is screwing that up by trying to seduce Molly to the dark side (for all the above reasons), which would make Harry implode because he's Harry. So Mab (with foreknowledge) moves to really ATTRACT Harry's attention to Molly's dark practice by sending Fetches at the victims and then snatching Molly so that she can try to trade her for the Winter Knight job.


Think about what would have happened if the fetches hadn't attacked. Harry would have left the convention and might not have ever investigated those goings-on enough to realize Molly was turning dark, not until she'd gone much much farther down the left hand path. The fetches don't make sense as a distraction, but they do make sense as a "hey, look at me!"

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