Well, they are human enough to breed with humans.( hence River's son) So that could be enough for a coin merger.
Surviving the ice grinders will need some explaining though. Maybe Jim just wasn't done with the character's plot arc.
Well, they are human enough to breed with humans.( hence River's son) So that could be enough for a coin merger.Any chance it gets lured to the island and locked up? I don't see how Harry can beat the beast head to head : although that's been a recurring theme throughout the series. Dresden taking on things above his weight class and always coming through. Well except Shagnasty.
Surviving the ice grinders will need some explaining though. Maybe Jim just wasn't done with the character's plot arc.
Especially because Rivers himself seems at a loss - so it is not a typical Forest People moveI assume Urseil revived him after a few but then how the hell did he linger long enough to heal then escape
Any chance it gets lured to the island and locked up? I don't see how Harry can beat the beast head to head : although that's been a recurring theme throughout the series. Dresden taking on things above his weight class and always coming through. Well except Shagnasty.
Another interesting question is if he survived then did Hannah and Lash? Think so
Well, LASCIEL will - she just projects to the body thru the Coin... Ursiel gets killed by Michael early on, decapitated IIRC, and HE comes back. Rasmussen, the host, is the one who goes. The Denarians could well move a few tons of rick and pick up Lasciel's Coin from Ascher's dead body, though they may have ways to summon the coin too (I know Lash said she could tell Harry how, but that might be different, as she was already in his head)So you think there's absolutely no way that Hannah lived,? Maybe the monkey and her helped each other escape. I mean they were both fataly injured not to mention they had to dodge and defend against The residents of Hades..they could've team up.. maybe the monkey needed Hannah to open viel and protected her til they got out . I mean cmon. If he healed himself quick ,( still don't see friggin how!) Then he could've gotten her out of that rubble. Then the two of them team up and escape Hades. Though I think he probably would've needed Asher to open a way..He's strong but I'm not sure if subtly magic is his forte.
Then again, Denarians have shown high levels of recovery in some circumstances, and Ursiel is about as tough a Fallen as they come. Coupled with the Genoskwa's own toughness (and likely ability to heal), plus whatever other Denarian tricks (like speeding up the mind) I can see how Blood-on-his-Soul survived.
Once or twice in my life, I’d been able to open a Way in front of me, fast enough to divert an incoming attack away from me, into the Nevernever or out into somewhere else in the mortal world. But from here, in the secured vault, there was no way I was going to be able to open a Way—not until I got back out beyond the first gate again.The second about how much warning they had when the ice block crushed them.
Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 385). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
But neither the Genoskwa nor the Fallen angel sensed what was plummeting soundlessly toward them. A block of ice the size of a building came down like the hammer of God Almighty, and crushed the Genoskwa like a beer can.
Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 399). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
This true, but dead is dead, and if the host is killed the coin rolls away. Unless it is retrieved by a Holy Knight for "safe keeping," Nic or another Denarian will pick it up to tempt the next suitable host.And yet we know the Genoskwa (Blood-on-his-Soul) has survived. Dresden saw him get crushed like a beer can under a hammer. I don't know we will ever find out exactly how it worked out, but it's fair to say "magic" was involved. And yes, Ursiel himself as an immortal is unable to be killed except in very specific circumstances.
So Ursiel, himself cannot be killed, he lives in his coin, but his host can be squished to death.. So wouldn't be shocked to see Ursiel again, but he will have a different body.
If you never see it coming how fast you think will have nothing to do with it.I think spiritual beings are stronger in the Nevernever, from memory. So even if they didn't sense the impending attack, they might be more able to heal from such an assault, perhaps better than they would in the "real" world.
The first quote is about opening a way in the realm. The second about how much warning they had when the ice block crushed them.
And yet we know the Genoskwa (Blood-on-his-Soul) has survived. Dresden saw him get crushed like a beer can under a hammer. I don't know we will ever find out exactly how it worked out, but it's fair to say "magic" was involved. And yes, Ursiel himself as an immortal is unable to be killed except in very specific circumstances.
With the exception of Nicodemus the Nicklehead's aren't that hard to kill. Ursiel dies the first time in Blood Rites. Separate the head from the body and they die. Destroy the head and they die. And so on. And he stole the idea from the Highlander, whose writer stole it from someone else.
But if Butcher wants to raise him from the dead all it takes is a word processor and the desire. At this rate I expect a party with all the quasi dead people of the Dresden Files in attendance.
So you think there's absolutely no way that Hannah lived,? Maybe the monkey and her helped each other escape. I mean they were both fataly injured not to mention they had to dodge and defend against The residents of Hades..they could've team up.. maybe the monkey needed Hannah to open viel and protected her til they got out . I mean cmon. If he healed himself quick ,( still don't see friggin how!) Then he could've gotten her out of that rubble. Then the two of them team up and escape Hades. Though I think he probably would've needed Asher to open a way..He's strong but I'm not sure if subtly magic is his forte.
Or maybe because Sasquatches are tougher than your average beings, we've also seen River Shoulders take some fearsome punishments as well and survive.Still mortal though, and anything mortal crushed by a solid ice block the size of a small building isn't going to survive unless they are able to somehow protect themselves. That much mass would be too much energy to divert via a shield, even for the Genoskwa with Ursiel I suspect. It would have kept pursuing Dresden otherwise. Harry was quite sure the old "open up a Way" trick wasn't possible where he was, particularly by anyone but him. He could be wrong, but if so why did they use him to get into the Underworld? Perhaps the Genoskwa turned itself into a liquid or gas...but that seems less likely given the requirements, and either form would struggle to maintain it's state of matter in such cold conditions.
With the exception of Nicodemus the Nicklehead's aren't that hard to kill. Ursiel dies the first time in Blood Rites. Separate the head from the body and they die. Destroy the head and they die. And so on. And he stole the idea from the Highlander, whose writer stole it from someone else.It took three Knights last time to kill Ursiel's host. As far as I am aware, no Angel has died yet, Fallen or otherwise.
But if Butcher wants to raise him from the dead all it takes is a word processor and the desire. At this rate I expect a party with all the quasi dead people of the Dresden Files in attendance.
Remember Tessa in small favor? She got a killing blow but just fell apart in many insects and they recombined again. Something like that would work.Precisely what I said, glad someone else gets it.
HHSSW,I don't see Hannah Ascher surviving as she was so new at the Denarian angle. But then again, I didn't think the Genoskwa survived and here we are. Anything's possible I guess.
I was about to say Asher didn’t know how to do that… but then… Lasciel could remedy that quite rapidly.
River Shoulders and the Genoskwa are very tough beings, but I don't see how either of them could survive the impact of that much mass without magical assistance beyond their normal means.
Butcher set up the rules to make it hard to kill anything in the Files. Ursiel's host died easily enough when his head fell off. It was getting close enough to kill him without dying that was the problem. Since he's human Harry couldn't use magic. And that is the crux of it, the host is human. Nicodemus is the only one who can take a licking and keep on ticking.
If your going to call me out for not differentiating between the host and his Fallen somebody needs to tell Butcher to get square on Thorned Namshiel.
... I mean cmon. If he healed himself quick ,( still don't see friggin how!) Then he could've gotten her out of that rubble ...Did we actually ever see the "getting crushed"? I don't think we (Harry) actually had line-of-sight.
... He's strong but I'm not sure if subtly magic is his forte.
... So the Hellhound uses a few sniper round, Eldest Gruff blows away one or two, etc ...
With the exception of Nicodemus the Nicklehead's aren't that hard to kill. Ursiel dies the first time in Blood Rites. Separate the head from the body and they die. Destroy the head and they die. And so on. And he stole the idea from the Highlander, whose writer stole it from someone else.
But if Butcher wants to raise him from the dead all it takes is a word processor and the desire. At this rate I expect a party with all the quasi dead people of the Dresden Files in attendance.
I think you underestimate Eldest Gruff & the Hellhound, there.
I think Harry got off easy, and didn't realize that -- sometimes -- his allies are just as far above his pay-grade as his enemies are!
I wonder if the Hellound SHOT the coin out of the Denarian. That would do it probably.<heh>
<heh>
Probably would, at that!
Heck, for all we know Kincaid has a private side-deal with Sanya, and can buy a case of KotC-blessed bullets... ;-)
My thought is that for full symbiosis the coins have to be in contact with the host, if contact is broken you have the shadow until contact is resumed. As powerful as Lash was she couldn’t heal Harry, whereas Lasciel could have. Once the host dies so does the shadow...Two points, here --
Going hive mind works as Tessa did, one of he subunits would be in physical contact with her coin, and the rest would have the shadow of her Denarian, it’s how she is able to control them, the shadow is doing it.My theory is different: Imariel stuffs Tessa & the coin into a Nevernever demesne, and creates ectoplasmic bugs (maybe they exist there, and are summoned or sent to the mortal world). Every bug remains connected to Imariel & the coin.
I don't think being in contact with your coin is foolproof - Eldest Gruff took out Magog still holding his coin, and his head on, and didn't several drown in the aquarium when Harry blasted the glass? They were not separated from their coins that we know of until they died.
Question on the Wendigo - if you lure it into a circle and activate.... the ectoplasm turns to goop, right? Have we seen evidence a Forest People can possess anything? They have been resistant to magic, but how much have we seen them USE it? They may be so resistant they cannot manipulate it. Maybe it is a spirit and ALL ectoplasm? If so, Harry goes and sees Forthill, and comes out with the SuperSoaker of Doom.... 1 squirt banishes the ghost and dispels the ectoplasm...
No sign of gateway to the Never Never when the transformation occurs.We know that power & experience & aptitude all matter, in such things. Time and again, Harry is impressed at how smoothly others open Ways. He could barely even notice when Lily opened the Way to Arctis Tor; she certainly had less experience than Harry... but the Mantle gave her plenty of power and aptitude!
“I figure Nicodemus had Lasciel and Ascher as his backup Way home,” I said. Ascher had been throwing Hellfire around. With a couple of weeks’ training from a good teacher, say a Fallen angel who could provide her with images and communicate directly in thought, she might have enough talent to learn how to manage a Way—but probably not from inside several hundred tons of molten rock. “Maybe the Genoskwa could have done it. But they’re out. That leaves one way for him to get back.”But it feels like a cheat since old Nicky had to sneak out through Dresden's portal. It also makes a farce of the vault as a plot gimmick.
Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 400). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
There is no indication in the text that anyone other than a Shadow can summon a coin. Lash expected to be reabsorbed into Lasciel and feared that she would not take her back. Michael tells you that the only way to rid yourself of the Fallen is to take up the coin, accept the Fallen and then put the coin down. Accepting the Fallen removes the Shadow. Harry was a special case in that she was burned out of his brain. Or so it seems.
There is no indication in the text that anyone other than a Shadow can summon a coin.A "Shadow" isn't an "anyone" -- they need to work within the abilities of the host, adding only their Fallen knowledge. The Church's inability to keep hold of any of the Coins suggests that some may be being summoned out from their hiding places (sure, there is corruption and some people are releasing the Coins who shouldn't; but the problem is so ubiquitous and long-term, I think Coin-summoning is a component).
... Michael tells you that the only way to rid yourself of the Fallen is to take up the coin, accept the Fallen and then put the coin down ...We know that the Denarians periodically raid the Church to destroy records concerning themselves, and Harry himself points out in that same conversation how Michael can't possibly "know" these sorts of limitations; he may in fact be correct, but he may also be mistaken.
... Harry was a special case in that she was burned out of his brain ...And yet, the real Lasciel seemed to know about Bonea, which suggests that a Shadow's destruction within a wizard's mind is a known phenomenon. Also, I think there was a WoJ saying that Bob was created the same way as Bonea.
... Lash can effect physical reality. She gave Harry access to Hellfire. Nicodemus also assumes that she can paralyze Harry and tells her to do so in Small Favor. If Harry were unprepared she could make him do anything by executing a man in the middle attack where she feeds Harry the reality that she wants him to see ...A Shadow is limited entirely to "acting" through their host; for example, manipulating their perceptions, nudging their subconscious, etc. Getting the host to act. But also, overtly convincing the host.
We know that power & experience & aptitude all matter, in such things. Time and again, Harry is impressed at how smoothly others open Ways. He could barely even notice when Lily opened the Way to Arctis Tor; she certainly had less experience than Harry... but the Mantle gave her plenty of power and aptitude!
And we know that Angels -- fallen or not -- have power on a scale to dwarf the entire White Council, and experience to match. Imariel certainly has some sorts of aptitudes, and demesne filled with horrific little bugs sounds right up his alley!
If nothing else, they could cast a "there is no gateway here" veil, to mask what they're doing; remember Elaine's veil, in White Knight: "there is nothing worth noticing or remembering about the person sitting here." Again, well within the DV canon, and the scope of Fallen powers...
And yet, the real Lasciel seemed to know about Bonea, which suggests that a Shadow's destruction within a wizard's mind is a known phenomenon. Also, I think there was a WoJ saying that Bob was created the same way as Bonea.
Could the old whats his name have escaped by opening a portal underneath the block. Sure, Butcher does something similar in the fight in the Goblin's domain when he drops rock ectoplasm into the real world to escape being crushed during his fight. In theory so could have Lasciel and Hannah. It's mentioned in the text as a possibility.But it feels like a cheat since old Nicky had to sneak out through Dresden's portal. It also makes a farce of the vault as a plot gimmick.
Wasn't that because Harry told Murphy about her when Nick was listening in?
More than likely, also we don't know exactly when the Shadow of Lasciel got it on with Harry's alter ego. Up until her complete break, which was just at the end when she sacrificed herself for Harry, Lash was still in contact with the coin. Let's not forget her final try to get Harry to accept the coin in White Night, so Lasciel would have known about the sex, most likely encouraged it, and yes, knew about the pregnancy as well.
Bob: "What do you want me to say Harry, you can't keep run around making loving self-sacrifices unprotected and not expect this to happen. I mean honestly..."
“The portion of me that shares your mind is nothing but the shadow of my true self,” Lasciel said. “But have a care, mortal. I am. I exist. And I desire to continue to do so.”While Butcher could write in the ability for any Fallen to summon the coin of any other Fallen sets up the amusing possibility of the Fallen playing a game of kill the horse by summoning the rider.
And then do a replay in White Knight. Have Lash decide the best way to keep the taste of freedom that she's found is to let the curse burn out the parts that tie her to the Fallen. She gets put into the real world with a darling skull of her own. That is one way of affecting reality.That is a possibility, but while Bonnie may really be Lash, she isn't Lasciel's Shadow either.
We have no reason to believe that Michael was wrong with the exception of Harry. In Harry's case the Shadow was supposed to be burned out. This doesn't prove that Michael was mistaken. It's used as a plot point to drive the uncertainty about Harry's allegiance in Small Favor.Yes, Michael's doubts or claim that it had never happened before was meant to keep us in suspense. However with the gift of Soul Fire from Uriel, all doubts were done away with. Here is one for you, seemingly in contradiction, what if Lash, then Bonnie are really Lasciel as she was before her fall?
If you control the mind you control reality. Try this on for size. If you are Lash and you are ordered to wreck LC, all a shadow need do is alter the reality of what her host sees and does. Have the host tell Bob to not see it and there you go. And you thought you were ordering steak at the steakhouse.That wouldn't be a shock since the Shadow of Lasciel convinced Harry's mind that he was seeing a woman named Shelia and if it weren't for Butters convincing Harry that there was no one there, things might have turned out very differently.
To me that sounds a little bit too ambiguous, Bob may say that but it doesn't mean that Bonnie was a direct result of Lash's sacrifice for Harry.
As for the rest, I really feel like you're stretching the extent to which Id!Harry is his own entity and not just Dresden being a bit loose in the head and having existential dream talks with himself.
In a sense the Id,is his own entity, lets not forget back in Fool Moon I think it was when we first meet him, he is a very different Harry from the one we know. I wouldn't be shocked if that is the Harry we meet in Mirror Mirror..
Harry's had so many people wandering around in his head he needs a traffic cop to keep order. It's overused and Butcher needs to give it a rest. But currently he seems not to be disposed that way.
Harry's had so many people wandering around in his head he needs a traffic cop to keep order. It's overused and Butcher needs to give it a rest. But currently he seems not to be disposed that way.It is a consequence of his world building and how Harry blunders around everything. As soon as you give part of yourself spiritual mass and agency it can potentially split of and become something else.
We have no reason to believe that Michael was wrong with the exception of Harry.
Maybe other Denarian-infected people did not have the opportunity to experience that psychic attack, which allows the Shadow to free itself FROM the host, and live it's own existence? The psychic bullets shattered Lash's handcuffs tying her to Harry. She was now free to grow, and trusted Harry would find a midwife of sorts to let her free to live. Harry now free, Lash now free. The old people were like trying to separate conjoined twins... until the right case came along, with suitable support, it was not likely to be successful. Physical attempts could not part the pairs, and we normals are rarely in a position to face magic. But now, a wizard faced magic, and the parasite had had time to grow stronger herself, so... viability?
And yet Sheila was still more a real girlfriend than any that Carlos has ever had.
And yet Sheila was still more a real girlfriend than any that Carlos has ever had.
The eagle that listens to wind is shape shifting into is not described as a giant eagle, so I guess he is loosing quite a lot of weight, a big female Golden eagle with a 2,5 meter wingspan weights 7 kg. Blood on his Soul is both from the race that LTW learned shape shifting from and he was in the nevernever.
Afterwards, maybe he took the long way out and found a place where he knew how to cross over, similar to how Thomas can cross over in places of lust.
I mean Sheila is Lash, and Lash is probably the closest Harry has gotten to a health relationship
Well, until Justin screwed it up, Harry and Elaine were going good. the mind control broke them, and makes it impossible to get back together for guilt/fear.
Sister? Would you care to support that?
She was his sister, and it's implied Justin pushed them together as a way to keep them socially isolated so it'd be easier to control them. Not exactly painting the best picture.
When is dead, dead, in the Dresden Files? I can write any number of scenarios that work. But what was the point of killing him if you are just going to resurrect him?
Death loses its gravitas if it is never, really final. Murphy got killed. Butcher uses it for the emotional punch. And then he resurrects her. The whole scene with Rudolph turns out to be about Harry losing his shit because Rudolph made his girlfriend go away. Not because she died, because, well, she didn't.
Murphy got killed. Butcher uses it for the emotional punch. And then he resurrects her. The whole scene with Rudolph turns out to be about Harry losing his shit because Rudolph made his girlfriend go away. Not because she died, because, well, she didn't.
To be fair, at that point in the story when Harry loses it, he had no idea Karrin would be Chosen. As far as he knew in that moment, she was D-E-D, dead. So Harry's Roaring Rampage of Revenge really was about her dying, not just "going away."Murphy needed to die. If or no other reason then that time is creeping for Harry and zooming for her. But he couldn't just kill her and let it have the weight it deserved. And he's going to milk it going forward for emotions that I won't bring to the table because of what I know as a reader.(click to show/hide)
As far as I can see Murphy is just dead. We have been informed about her afterlife, that is all.
I even think I know narrative purpose behind it. Remember the sword can only act against evil, not just rage. And when it burned him it smelled of brimstone.
Either Murphy is Murphy or she's a monster of Vadderung's creation. It would do my heart good to know that my mother was somewhere swilling beer with someone even if I was forbidden to see her. Which is different then not knowing and having hope replace certain knowledge.
Either Murphy is Murphy or she's a monster of Vadderung's creation. It would do my heart good to know that my mother was somewhere swilling beer with someone even if I was forbidden to see her. Which is different then not knowing and having hope replace certain knowledge.Everything points to her being Murphy, it is a real afterlife. Just not the catholic one.
Everything points to her being Murphy, it is a real afterlife. Just not the catholic one.
Everything points to her being Murphy, it is a real afterlife. Just not the catholic one.I would agree with that if they hadn't taken the body.
I would agree with that if they hadn't taken the body.
What points to her being Murphy? That because she died a heroic warrior and was sent to Valhallahow both Jim and Gard talk about it. This is not some sort of zombie or black court vampire construction. It is her soul in it.
she will remain Murphy? Maybe that part of her, but she was a more complicated person than that.
Also as many like to say, Jim likes to make Harry and the reader suffer.. What better way to make both Harry and her fans suffer big time, but for her body to come back, but her mind totally changed..
The whole story does not make sense if it is not Murphy. We also know Vadderung uses soulfire for this. The fires of creation as some monster called it.
I think we have some sort of Christian exceptionalism here like there is only one real afterlife and the rest is fake. From what we read in skin game Hades is real and there is no reason to assume Walhalla is not. Just like Socrates is in Hades Murphy is in walhalla.
We know? Why doesn't the story make sense if it isn't Murphy? I could argue if she remains Murphy unchanged, it would make no sense at all. Hell, Harry has changed some and he was only mostly dead.
Jim has always tip toed on a tightrope here about religion from the very beginning. Yes, he includes gods, goddesses, fairies, Hades, the Nevernever, but interesting though Mab calls Him, "the White God," and that has been picked up on this site, Harry in the books always calls Him, "the Almighty," always with a capital "G,H, or A." Still all the gods have their rules that are not to be violated.. Hades has his rules about the Artifacts, and he obeys them. Mab has her rules governing Fae behavior, even she cannot cross them.
When Gard says the rule governing those that go to Valhalla is a rule "that even the All Father, Odin a.k.a. Vadderung cannot break." She means it, it has nothing to do with whether or not Odin/Vadderung can use Soul Fire to do it, yes, he could, but the rule is he cannot.. Not without cosmic consequences. To me at any rate the story would make a heck of a lot more sense if Murphy went to work with her father for Uriel, Harry might see her once in a while, she remains Murphy.. Odin breaking ALL his rules so she could come back in body and mind to Harry before all memory of her has passed just so they can cuddle again, and basically that would be the only reason, would be tripe.. Her being Super Woman was getting old, it ignored everything that I originally liked the character for. In the early books she was a good smart cop, a good shot, etc, but she had limits. She was a vanilla human, a strong liberated woman, but human. However by her demise she was more of a comic book super woman like character, severe injury, totally ignored, remove that cast, toss a Valkyrie on her ear, ride a motorcycle, with the wisdom of Solomon and the bravery of Audie Murphy... Bringing her back as one of the undying, unchanged? No thank you, that is why she had to be killed off, and she should remain dead.
There's no reason that the two are mutually exclusive. She can be changed and still be Murphy, otherwise no characters can ever experience growth, rise or fall. We'd be on our fourth or fifth Harry by now if that was the case.
Regardless of Jim placing the White God in the Almighty position, he does also acknowledge that other pantheons exist and therefore their afterlives are real in the context of the Dresdenverse. Nic's daughter is in Tartarus, by word of Hades himself. Murphy and Hendricks are in Valhalla by the word of one of Odin's valkyries. Murphy's father is in a purgatory like realm working for Uriel. This is where their souls, the core of their existence, are. It's how the Dresdenverse works.Yes, but each realm has it's rules, that is the point and the rule for those who are sent to Valhalla was spelled out by Gard. Who, I might point out had all the same reasons that Harry has that it be otherwise. "Not even the All Father can break it." There are cosmic rules even in the Dresdenverse.
You have to accept that the author is going to tell their story, their way, using the author's canon for how things work in universe. Or you can read it under protest and be unhappy or stop reading altogether.
The issue may be living memory and for Gard the no-fraternisation rule her employer utilises.
Gard may also be aware that Odin’s time is drawing near, she may have thought she had decades with Nathan, instead she may only see him briefly again at Ragnarok.
I wonder if because of Hendricks’ Gard will tell Harry how to make Einenjharen, so that he raises both Hendricks and Murphy tied to his life. Suddenly days and decades replaced by centuries.
I think the afterlife is dependent upon belief but can be diverted by the white gods or other power, Deidre should have gone to Lucifer, on belief but ended up with Hades.
I could really care less about what god does what to who. If they took the body then they must have needed the body to put something in. And since Butcher didn't bury the body then I fully expect her to be back. So now we have to go with at least one book where Harry grieves because, boo hoo, he misses her. This is the same stew all warmed over as Susan. So now Lara can melt his heart.Oh didn't say Murphy wouldn't be back, but that will be sometime after the BAT.. Kind of like having it both ways, Murphy is dead, no doubt about it, bullet through her carotid artery, she bled out in Harry's arms... Her body is hauled off to Valhalla; So maybe she isn't dead. Right? Not really.
What are dead Viking warriors called?
the einherjar
In Norse mythology, the einherjar (singular einheri) literally "army of one", "those who fight alone") are those who have died in battle and are brought to Valhalla by valkyries.
Where do dead warriors go?
Valhalla
The best-known vision of the Norse afterlife is that of Valhalla, the hall of the heroes where warriors chosen by the Valkyries feast with the god Odin, tell stories from their lives, and fight each other in preparation for the final battle of Ragnarök, the end of the world and death of the gods.
In Norse mythology, Ginnungagap (Old Norse: [ˈɡinːoŋɡɑˌɡɑp]; "gaping abyss", "yawning void") is the primordial void mentioned in the Gylfaginning, ...So yeah, she could come back, I doubt she will be the Murphy Harry knew and loved.. And they ain't going to live happily ever after.
No, Murphy is dead, she isn't even getting the reward that her Catholic Faith promised her.
I think she gets Heaven in the end. It's just delayed. She's working off some karma in a Purgatory. It's like her father, working for Uriel in HIS Purgatory, until he is ready to face Judgement. Murphy is hired out to Vadderung, and likely had a choice to do this or face Judgement. Gonna rack up some Brownie Points first.
Actually Murphy may be a bone of contention between Odin and the White God, she is a former Knight and as such should have been shepherded by the angel of death, unless this was what intended all along. Perhaps in the APOCALYPSE Murphy leads a battalion of former knights, alongside the Einenjharen, so we get to see Shiro again, or Michael swinging back into action one last time with every dead knight each bearing a version of their sword, each part of Harry’s Banner, using the power of the Winter Knight AND his soulfire combined with the super weapons to bring them back from heaven for one last engagement.
That could be, but it leads to another question, does Sanya get to go to Heaven? He is a Holy Knight but he also claims to be an atheist? Actually he appears more agnostic to me, but still.There are no Christian knights of the cross anymore. Butters is a Jew who has more faith in Star Wars than Christ and Uriel is OK with that. Retrospectively the last Christian knight made a lot of choices that were more in line with Vadderung than with the swords so that is probably the reason Odin could claim her and Uriel agreed.
But the subject of Murphy's faith is important in this context, another question, did she have a choice?
There are no Christian knights of the cross anymore. Butters is a Jew who has more faith in Star Wars than Christ and Uriel is OK with that. Retrospectively the last Christian knight made a lot of choices that were more in line with Vadderung than with the swords so that is probably the reason Odin could claim her and Uriel agreed.
I do not think it matters. The way we see Uriel and what we think about his boss is heavily influenced by Harry and the culture he lives in. Uriel can probably also appear as the ultimate Jedi serving th force. Maybe that is how Butters sees him. A lot of religions have some vague sky got that created the world and did nothing seriously afterwards or you can get mystical about I and god is everything.
Santa gets a good place that fits him. The same for Butters.
Butters still believes in God, supposedly Sanya does not by his own definition.. Are you saying that Michael was in agreement with Vadderung? Or Shiro for that matter.Michael was the last true Christian knight for now. Shirt was nominally Christian but I do not think it was his defining feature.
We don't know that Uriel is the head guy in charge of that. Raphael seemed to have a lot to do with Michael.One of those guys.
Not quite the same a lot of the "Christmas" traditions are adapted from pagan Scandinavian and Germanic traditions so it makes perfect sense that on of the All Father Odin's guises is Father Christmas or Kris Kringle.. We aren't sure how much Butters practiced his religion, it was never a subject he and Harry spoke much if at all about.For some reason my iPhone corrupted Sanya into Santa.
Michael was the last true Christian knight for now. Shirt was nominally Christian but I do not think it was his defining feature.
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Oh I disagree, by his very nature and actions, Shiro's life screams Christian as much as if not more than even Michael.He was a good man and his moral compass was aligned with the swords but that does not mean he was a Christian.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;Given that quote it seems that he might have a problem with Odin snatching up Murphy.
Shiro was a Baptist. Stating first that I am an atheist, and as such this is merely amusing from an outsiders point of view, the Bible would seem to disagree about what the White God would put up with. From Exodus Chapter 20Given that quote it seems that he might have a problem with Odin snatching up Murphy.Uriel has yearly lunches with Vadderung. They might have talked about it.
One of those guys.
Uriel has yearly lunches with Vadderung. They might have talked about it.
I do not think Uriel’s boss is exactly the god of the bible. Uriel is all about free will and consequences. The whole jealous god thing is not really his mode of operation.
One of my theories: There are four archangels- Raphael, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel.
Raphael, we are told, prefers working with his own hands. Amoracchius is rarely deployed. Raphael is responsible for the defenses on Michael Carpenter's house.
Sanya mentions meeting Michael- the archangel- and that he bestowed the Sword of Hope on him.
Murphy, wielding the sword of Faith, was used as a mouthpiece to pronounce doom upon the Lords of the Outer Night. Gabriel is the Trumpeter.
One of my out-there theories: These three swords each contain a nail. The Lance of Longinus, the Spear of Destiny, also pierced Christ. Therefore, it could also be considered a Sword, no? That would leave four swords to four archangels- and Uriel's Sword happens to have fallen to the man Uriel has been using as an agent. A bit darker than the others, but Uriel is the angel of God's vengeance. I rather like the symmetry of Butters the Knight of Faith, Sanya the Knight of Hope, Michael the Knight of Redeeming Love, and Harry the Knight of God's Retribution. Puts a very different spin on his being the one to mess up Cassius. The other Knights aren't allowed to do that kind of thing.
Actually Murphy may be a bone of contention between Odin and the White God, she is a former Knight and as such should have been shepherded by the angel of death, unless this was what intended all along. Perhaps in the APOCALYPSE Murphy leads a battalion of former knights, alongside the Einenjharen, so we get to see Shiro again, or Michael swinging back into action one last time with every dead knight each bearing a version of their sword, each part of Harry’s Banner, using the power of the Winter Knight AND his soulfire combined with the super weapons to bring them back from heaven for one last engagement.
Sanya gets to go to heaven, but spends eternity arguing with St Peter that it is in fact merely an hallucination caused by misfiring neutrons in his dying brain.
It ceases to be heaven for St Peter.
Force ghosts, Jar Jar Binks went to hell (a completely different universe by the way)I thought that was where he was FROM....
I don't see why Murphy gets to lead. I don't think she was really a knight, she picked up a sword. I mean, Sanya got his from an Archangel. Michael may have. I expect Uriel likely swore Butters in after he spooked out Nicodemus. Murphy said she didn't want it.
Being a Knight is not usually a long term job. Murphy was truly a Knight during Changes but afterwards was just a keeper of the Swords.
She wasn't even a Custodian of the Swords, she appointed herself that after Harry "died." That was part of the problem, since she wasn't official, she had no insight as to when they should be used or who should get one to be a Knight.Harry told her we’re the swords were and she handled his testament and so on. That is appointment from Harry and good enough for me.
Not Harry’s responsibility to delegate.Was that written down somewhere?
Not Harry’s responsibility to delegate.
Yeah, Harry entrusting Murphy with taking care of his estate (and thus the swords) is fine.
Her deciding to emotionally blackmail him into letting her keep them after he'd come back from the dead, despite him not even asking for them back was a bit of a dick move though.
Had Harry not hired his own assassin the point would have been moot. She wouldn't have had them. Had Harry not gone on constantly in the books up to Changes about being turned in to the evil thrall of the nasty Queen Mab just maybe she might have been more forthcoming. But you know Butcher. /shrug/Murphy had to find out what the current Harry was like and some irritating probing was part of that.
Oh absolutely it would have been irresponsible. But like I said, Harry never even asked for them back. Karrin is the one that brings them up -pretty much at random- in order to go "Fuck you Harry, these are too important to entrust to you and I'm keeping them".
And then when he does bring up the swords (when he suggests bringing one to Demonreach) she responds with "Yo Harry, remember the time you got your best friend crippled for life".
Like, Murphy was just insanely antagonistic about the Swords in Cold Days, because she's too proud to admit that she just doesn't want to use the damn things.
But this is getting pretty off topic so I suggest we stop here.
Actually Harry was pushing Murphy to take the sword up all the time. At the end Harry gave the sword to the right person but it was not like he was intending to give it to Butters. He was aiming for Charity.
Actually Harry was pushing Murphy to take the sword up all the time. At the end Harry gave the sword to the right person but it was not like he was intending to give it to Butters. He was aiming for Charity.
I don't think Harry was offering a calling, he was offering a tool.