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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Snark Knight on October 31, 2017, 05:53:28 PM
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So I know Elaine is one of the most prominent suspects for Kumori's identity. There's a fair bit of circumstantial evidence, but does anyone have a good accounting of why she was putting on an apparently full and sincere effort to stop Cowl's plot with Vitto to hunt the minor practitioners to extinction?
It seems like a stretch to attribute it to seeing through Cowl's deceptions after DB and running, but being too afraid to fully come clean to Harry. When Harry suggested leaving him and going to the Council for witness protection in DB, Kumori was confident that wasn't an option because he'd track her down and kill her easily even with protection. How does she survive going it alone with her name in LA's yellow pages?
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Well, long term in the Cowl is Justin become Simon(Which having Simon's body is more than enough reason to hide your face) theorem. I think Eliane doesn't actually know she's Kumori at times, She's so finely enthralled still her mind hiccups over the irregularities without pause. Course that's just a guess.
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I would say that Elaine helped the witches for the same reason that Kumori helped revive the mobster. I don't believe that Cowl was that strongly for or against killing witches. It was more likely part recruitment of Vitto and part destabilizing the White Court structure. And, maybe, Elaine has subconscious Elaine that is a little more dominant than Harry's subconscious.
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So I know Elaine is one of the most prominent suspects for Kumori's identity. There's a fair bit of circumstantial evidence, but does anyone have a good accounting of why she was putting on an apparently full and sincere effort to stop Cowl's plot with Vitto to hunt the minor practitioners to extinction?
It seems like a stretch to attribute it to seeing through Cowl's deceptions after DB and running, but being too afraid to fully come clean to Harry. When Harry suggested leaving him and going to the Council for witness protection in DB, Kumori was confident that wasn't an option because he'd track her down and kill her easily even with protection. How does she survive going it alone with her name in LA's yellow pages?
Don't forget that Elaine was also able to lie effectively to Harry through-out Summer Knight. She was Summer's emissary, but had been with Aurora all along.
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So I know Elaine is one of the most prominent suspects for Kumori's identity. There's a fair bit of circumstantial evidence, but does anyone have a good accounting of why she was putting on an apparently full and sincere effort to stop Cowl's plot with Vitto to hunt the minor practitioners to extinction?
It seems like a stretch to attribute it to seeing through Cowl's deceptions after DB and running, but being too afraid to fully come clean to Harry. When Harry suggested leaving him and going to the Council for witness protection in DB, Kumori was confident that wasn't an option because he'd track her down and kill her easily even with protection. How does she survive going it alone with her name in LA's yellow pages?
One of the reasons I don't favor the idea. That and it's not enough of a gut punch. I mean, Harry's already been betrayed by Elaine a bunch (or has, at least, felt that way). It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for her to not tell Harry, especially given the events of Summer Knight (and White Night; Fight Night will certainly feature Elaine if the "Knight/Night" thing is kept up and that's the actual name). Harry and Elaine are on pretty good terms at the end of Summer Knight. And, if Elaine had seen Harry and the Wardens take down Cowl and stop the Darkhallow (with an awesome T-Rex), I can't believe that she would, for even a second, believe that Harry had started killing women for funsies (though I've never really been clear on why she didn't trust him to begin with).
Besides, we all know it's Maggie grown up and time-traveled to create a stable time-loop in which she creates herself in the future. Obvs.
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I would say that the list of possible Kumori suspects is less than 10. And, Elaine is the most prominent member of that list. Some criteria are as follows: someone female, someone significantly younger than Cowl, someone between 5"4" to under 6 feet, someone caucasian, someone familiar or educated about Harry's foci, someone mortal, and someone that Harry's has invested trust with.
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I would say that the list of possible Kumori suspects is less than 10. And, Elaine is the most prominent member of that list. Some criteria are as follows: someone female, someone significantly younger than Cowl, someone between 5"4" to under 6 feet, someone caucasian, someone familiar or educated about Harry's foci, someone mortal, and someone that Harry's has invested trust with.
You never know, it could be Andi, who got with Butters for access to Bob/An experienced drummer. Plus, as a medical examiner he's perfectly placed to provide her with Corpses.
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I would more likely believe it of Marci than Andi. Marci seems shifty to me.
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I would say that the list of possible Kumori suspects is less than 10. And, Elaine is the most prominent member of that list. Some criteria are as follows: someone female, someone significantly younger than Cowl, someone between 5"4" to under 6 feet, someone caucasian, someone familiar or educated about Harry's foci, someone mortal, and someone that Harry's has invested trust with.
I would suggest American too. I don't recall Harry mentioning an accent. Unless magical shielding was going on, I'd doubt it was Luccio.
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The frustrating thing for me is that Harry doesn't even mention being curious about who Kumori and Cowl are. He's just like, "Man, not another bad guy. My life SUCKS."
I can't argue with the sentiment, because Harry's life does indeed suck camel wang (in his parlance), but c'mon man. Investigate!
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The frustrating thing for me is that Harry doesn't even mention being curious about who Kumori and Cowl are. He's just like, "Man, not another bad guy. My life SUCKS."
I can't argue with the sentiment, because Harry's life does indeed suck camel wang (in his parlance), but c'mon man. Investigate!
There are a LOT of things that Harry is not curious about that he really should be. No clue why.
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I would suggest American too. I don't recall Harry mentioning an accent. Unless magical shielding was going on, I'd doubt it was Luccio.
They were muffling their voices. But Luccio is one of the few female wizard we're sure cannot possibly be Kumori, on account of how she was busy being saved from almost bleeding to death by Butters while Harry and Carlos confronted Cowl and Kumori.
Harry might not be curious about Kumori because he assumed the apprentice's shield wouldn't have been strong enough to survive the blast. But it does stretch suspension of disbelief that after confronting Cowl again at the Raith Deeps in WN, the realization that he'd lived seems to just have been filed and forgotten. Another villain left out there who probably still has the Darkhallow committed to memory is a rather serious Chekov's Gun to just ignore.
It's possible Harry has put an unsuccessful effort into investigating some of these things - Jim puts it that the case files are basically his worst weekend out of the year - but failing to run that warning up the chain to Morgan and Luccio at the end of the book seems odd.
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Yeah, Harry doesn't go looking into trouble; he waits for it to find him.
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Yeah, Harry doesn't go looking into trouble; he waits for it to find him.
That was said with tongue-in-cheek, right?
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Sarcasm from moi'? Perish the thought.
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Kumori is someone obsessed with ending death. Someone who’s had a lot of loss or just one traumatic loss might become obsessed with that topic. Are there any characters who fit that?
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Kumori is someone obsessed with ending death. Someone who’s had a lot of loss or just one traumatic loss might become obsessed with that topic. Are there any characters who fit that?
Quite a few really, including Harry and Elaine as Orphans. I could see the Orphan factor come into play if it was Elaine.
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Quite a few really, including Harry and Elaine as Orphans. I could see the Orphan factor come into play if it was Elaine.
Maybe, but that’s kind of an old wound for her at this point, isn’t it? She’s in her 40s at that point? That’s a long time to hold on to that and still have it burn inside her so brightly.
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Maybe, but that’s kind of an old wound for her at this point, isn’t it? She’s in her 40s at that point? That’s a long time to hold on to that and still have it burn inside her so brightly.
We don't know how her parents died necessarily though. More tragic cases(say gunned down in alley) would tend to stick stronger in the mind.
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I have often believed that Harry killed Elaine's biological father and her adopted father at the same time.
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Kumori is someone obsessed with ending death. Someone who’s had a lot of loss or just one traumatic loss might become obsessed with that topic. Are there any characters who fit that?
Well, Demeter/Beckitt seems the most obvious one in terms of absolute obsession. But I don't think it would hurt Harry to find out he was Kumori - surprise, sure, but not hurt.
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Well, Demeter/Beckitt seems the most obvious one in terms of absolute obsession. But I don't think it would hurt Harry to find out he was Kumori - surprise, sure, but not hurt.
Oh, I never thought of her. Good call. I like that one. I just go by what is in the books, ignoring Butcher’s marketing event q&a sessions. I saw people say he said something about it hurting Dresden, but it’s not in the books and only what is in the books is set in ink. On that topic, though, I wish Butcher was better at putting information in the actual text rather than people relying on all this q&a talk.
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It could be in there; and we are not seeing how it.
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Oh, I never thought of her. Good call. I like that one. I just go by what is in the books, ignoring Butcher’s marketing event q&a sessions. I saw people say he said something about it hurting Dresden, but it’s not in the books and only what is in the books is set in ink. On that topic, though, I wish Butcher was better at putting information in the actual text rather than people relying on all this q&a talk.
Did Harry ever touch her? Becase she would not be able to hide her talent if he did. I believe they soulgazed so she is out.
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Did Harry ever touch her? Becase she would not be able to hide her talent if he did. I believe they soulgazed so she is out.
I thought the soul gaze thingie was more a look into the type of person one is, not an open book of all their secrets?
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I thought the soul gaze thingie was more a look into the type of person one is, not an open book of all their secrets?
True but that kind of person needs to fit in the Kumori role somehow. Kumori is a council level magical talent and according to bloodrites touching someone like that is enough to recognise magical talent. I think that if becket had real magical talent Harry would have known by now. The talent is also part of who someone is so it would have shown in the soulgaze somehow especially for someone driven by it like Kumori.
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Have added my two cents on this one before but, despite originally thinking this, I think there is way too much circumstantial evidence suggesting Elaine is not Kumori.
Dresden is highly observant. He has recognized Elaine by her height, her tone, the feel of her body, her smell, and has even had a telepathic type connection to her. I'm certain he could recognize her aura as well. Magic is also inherent to the individual and we've never seen someone use two separate languages to cast spells. Dresden has encountered Kumori. Has been held back to front by her. Has sat at arm's distance to her. Has seen her cast spells.
It would be entirely against Harry Dresden as a character for him to overlook all of this. For the same reason I would believe Cowl can't be someone we've viewed directly as well.
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I don't really buy Beckett being Kumori but sandbagging her power by a couple orders of magnitude when appearing as Beckett.
She was in prison at the time Harry first saw 99%-sure-Kumori on stage handing out treacherous gifts at Bianca's masquerade. And while dipping out of prison for errands via the Nevernever is technically possible, I don't see why she'd go back voluntarily rather than go off the grid and start a new identity.
Also, if Beckett had Kumori's depth of power, I think Marcone would have been hurt a lot worse than just by selling / giving his secrets to the Denarians.
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Keep in mind Harry doesn't tell us everything he has figured out until the final confrontation. It is quite possible Harry knows who Cowl is but either can't prove it, or simply doesn't trust the Wouncil.
Kumori is someone obsessed with ending death. Someone who’s had a lot of loss or just one traumatic loss might become obsessed with that topic. Are there any characters who fit that?
Maybe Victor Sells' daughter?
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Kumori is someone obsessed with ending death. Someone who’s had a lot of loss or just one traumatic loss might become obsessed with that topic. Are there any characters who fit that?
Perhaps Victor Sells' daughter?
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time check
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I really do think that Cowl would have a more advanced level apprentice than a teenage girl. Kumori, in DB, spoke in a mature and cvil manner.
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Perhaps Victor Sells' daughter?
They know he council well and have identities to hide. They are probably council or related to council in some way.
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How Many female council members have we seen?
I can think of three. Mai, Liberty, and Luccio. I don't count Molly any longer.
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I can think of three. Mai, Liberty, and Luccio. I don't count Molly any longer.
Luccio cannot be Kumori, as explained earlier.
Mai or Liberty can't be so definitively ruled out, but it would have been logistically difficult to split their time between running around in Chicago while the Senior Council were engaged in battle in Dead Beat. Plus neither of them are particularly young, and Kumori said during their one-on-one conversation that she and Cowl had been taking turns trailing Harry, presumably including climbing all those stairs to go talk to "Sheila".
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Luccio cannot be Kumori, as explained earlier.
Mai or Liberty can't be so definitively ruled out, but it would have been logistically difficult to split their time between running around in Chicago while the Senior Council were engaged in battle in Dead Beat. Plus neither of them are particularly young, and Kumori said during their one-on-one conversation that she and Cowl had been taking turns trailing Harry, presumably including climbing all those stairs to go talk to "Sheila".
I agree wholeheartedly, and the only other female wizard we've seen was eaten by Ghouls, right?
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There are probably some apprentices and wardens-in-training left unmentioned for good reason.
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There are probably some apprentices and wardens-in-training left unmentioned for good reason.
But that would be no clue for us to worry over and that's not Jim's style.
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I agree wholeheartedly, and the only other female wizard we've seen was eaten by Ghouls, right?
Isn't Warden Yoshimo(?) a female, the chick Harry mails for info on her family lineage being related to royalty when he's researching the swords?
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I really feel that there needs to be a stronger connection than a fellow Council member. It should be someone who Harry thinks he has saved or didn't save.
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True but that kind of person needs to fit in the Kumori role somehow. Kumori is a council level magical talent and according to bloodrites touching someone like that is enough to recognise magical talent. I think that if becket had real magical talent Harry would have known by now. The talent is also part of who someone is so it would have shown in the soulgaze somehow especially for someone driven by it like Kumori.
Oh, I don’t think it’s her, I just liked the idea.
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Another offhand reason I peg Elaine as Kumori or at least traitor material is, if you keep looking through the Merlin perspective, Elaine is a dead ringer for Nimueh who was Merlins first love and later betrays him(in one version at the behest of a fae queen) Other versions having her being alternately a seductive magic user who attempts to undermine him or otherwise entrap him for all time.
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I think that when Justin tried to whammy Harry as a teenager; that was the creation of subconscious Harry. Harry only got a partial whammy; while Elaine got the full effect. So her subconscious is a bit more dominant and its identity is Kumori. Hence the name contrast of Elaine (light) and Kumori (shadow).
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I think that when Justin tried to whammy Harry as a teenager; that was the creation of subconscious Harry. Harry only got a partial whammy; while Elaine got the full effect. So her subconscious is a bit more dominant and its identity is Kumori. Hence the name contrast of Elaine (light) and Kumori (shadow).
Oh, I'd never heard the name comparison.
I still like Elaine as Kumori, and Simon as Cowl
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Me too. Until further info becomes available that is my go-to theory.
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Me too. Until further info becomes available that is my go-to theory.
Na, though i'd stay on the ID connection, and point out Harry's Id is precisely as MM's Harry looks... So maybe Elaine's ID has the same mirroring (which makes Alt Harry Elaine the perps?)
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Simon is dead.
I go for the merlin and ancient mai. That is a better choice because they are both still living.
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Simon is dead.
I go for the merlin and ancient mai. That is a better choice because they are both still living.
About as likely as any others, I suppose.
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Dead is a very flexible term in the Dresdenverse.
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Isn't Warden Yoshimo(?) a female, the chick Harry mails for info on her family lineage being related to royalty when he's researching the swords?
She is. But like Luccio, she was wounded to immobility right before the Darkhallow at which Kumori appeared.
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Dead is a very flexible term in the Dresdenverse.
Not that flexible. Returning from dead is still special. Besides he used his dead curse and that energy can only come from one place, your own spirit.
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I can't recall if that was speculated or verified.
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Simon is dead.
I go for the merlin and ancient mai. That is a better choice because they are both still living.
The problem with this is that they both spent DB in Edinburgh hiding from the Rampires with the rest of the Senior Council. They didn't really have the opportunity to go cosplaying in Chicago.
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The problem with this is that they both spent DB in Edinburgh hiding from the Rampires with the rest of the Senior Council. They didn't really have the opportunity to go cosplaying in Chicago.
Doppelganger. The real merlin and ancient mai were in Chicago.
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Doppelganger. The real merlin and ancient mai were in Chicago.
Jim mentioned that Murphy cannot be Kumori because of her height and how Kumori held a knife to Harry's throat.
That being said, Mai isn't a really tall woman either. So I'd say the same thing applies here.
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I remember someone, maybe Griffyn, did the math for potential height range to hold a knife to Harry's throat.
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I remember someone, maybe Griffyn, did the math for potential height range to hold a knife to Harry's throat.
But that was all in ancient measurement like arms or toes and then I blank out. :)
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It was a tough follow. I am just ballparking it as someone average female height (5'6") to under 6'0." Over 6 feet and I guess stretching would not be necessary.
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But bottom line is that Mai couldn't be her.
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Mai would not have taken the rebuke from Cowl that Kumori received in DB. She is all about etiquette.
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It was a tough follow. I am just ballparking it as someone average female height (5'6") to under 6'0." Over 6 feet and I guess stretching would not be necessary.
Translate the medieval measurements please? :)
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That would require a smarter mind than I have. Apologies.
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That would require a smarter mind than I have. Apologies.
1 foot = 0.3048 meters
1 inch = 0.0254 meters
There are 12 inches in one foot which explains why Tom Lehrer plays piano so well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asP3XwXPHOs
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Mai would not have taken the rebuke from Cowl that Kumori received in DB. She is all about etiquette.
Her Mai personae. If she were Kumori ... but she really can't be anyway, so...
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I don't see Mai doing black leather evil personna.
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I don't see Mai doing black leather evil personna.
Midlife crisis. It is hard on wizards.
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I think Ancient Mai did mid-life crisis sometime around the signing of the Constitution.
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I think Ancient Mai did mid-life crisis sometime around the signing of the Constitution.
How do you know? If she gathers enough power and uses it she can go on for centuries.
Besides midlife crisis, despite its name, has more to do with the sudden realisation that everything ends and that you are not immortal and don't have everlasting youth.
You do things now because later is to late.
Wizards get that much later than normal people.
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How do you know? If she gathers enough power and uses it she can go on for centuries.
Besides midlife crisis, despite its name, has more to do with the sudden realisation that everything ends and that you are not immortal and don't have everlasting youth.
You do things now because later is to late.
Wizards get that much later than normal people.
Cowls just having a midlife crisis then!?
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Cowls just having a midlife crisis then!?
The merlin is infected which expresses itself in his Cowl persona. Infection takes personal traits that are already there like his midlife crisis and brings it to extremes to serve the outsiders agenda. :)
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How do you know? If she gathers enough power and uses it she can go on for centuries.
Besides midlife crisis, despite its name, has more to do with the sudden realisation that everything ends and that you are not immortal and don't have everlasting youth.
You do things now because later is to late.
Wizards get that much later than normal people.
If that is what a midlife crisis is then mine started about 30.
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If that is what a midlife crisis is then mine started about 30.
It was probably an early stage. It can become much worse.
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I am in my 40s, it has gotten worse. I am dreading fifties.
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I am in my 40s, it has gotten worse. I am dreading fifties.
It is not that different from forties except you have your sixties to dread
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Thanks for the warning.
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I am in my 40s, it has gotten worse. I am dreading fifties.
My husband turned 50 this year. Did I mention that he also bought himself a sportscar? I had to tell him that a 20 year old doesn’t come with it. :P I haven’t hit 50 yet and have decided to stop aging.
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Don't want a sports car; I want less back pain in the morning.
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Don't want a sports car; I want less back pain in the morning.
Totally off topic, but a mix of kratom and tiger balm works wonders for me in the mornings. I also bit the bullet and bought a bunch of the MyPillow stuff, including the oversized body pillow, and it's helped tremendously.
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Thank you, I will look into it.
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Don't want a sports car; I want less back pain in the morning.
My husband has that, too. He made the mistake of helping an old lady lift a little trolley with her shopping in it a few years back and injured his back. What really has helped him after going to chiropractors, deep tissue therapy and so is sitting at work on a yoga ball at his desk. His back problems have really diminished since he began using that.
One of these:
(https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/e/ee/Choose-the-Correct-Size-Yoga-Ball-Step-4.jpg/aid1506018-v4-728px-Choose-the-Correct-Size-Yoga-Ball-Step-4.jpg)
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Tkanks, again.
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I celebrated the 26th anniversary of my 25th birthday this year (that's 51 to those who don't want to math).
Aches and pains are part of life.
I just want my metabolism to stop slowing down and let me lose weight more easily.