Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Thessaly

Pages: [1]
1
DF Reference Collection / Re: The importance of Names.
« on: June 12, 2012, 01:05:22 AM »
I wouldn't be so sure.  Have you seen this WoJ?

If anything, it only confirms the theory (mixed with something I mentioned in another thread. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32594.0.html)

However, that conversation has its own place at the moment, and isn't really part of the nature of this one.

2
DF Reference Collection / Re: The importance of Names.
« on: June 12, 2012, 12:12:24 AM »
  LOL  ;D

To get back on topic, Marcone is not his real name either.  I had assumed his real name would be something in the order of Gianmarco Something (Rossi maybe, as that's the Italian equivalent of Smith?  ;D).  The suffix -one is Italian for "big", so Gianmarco becomes John Marco(ne), implying that he is bigger in his new persona than he was before.  Etymology, ftw!

Major life-altering changes coincides, betimes, a change in one's name. (Probably the only time, really.) The old name has no more relevance to who they are now than hair as a material binding to someone that shaved their head. There's no magical connection. It's theirs, but it no longer applies to them as how they are now. Besides, in choosing his own Name one assumes there to be greater abundance of meaning involved in the act that applies to their person.

Hairy Carpenter, ha!

I just figured Harry was dismayed as any boy or girl who has been teased about their name growing up. Incredulity that parents would willingly name someone with the same name is par for the course.

3
DF Reference Collection / Re: The importance of Names.
« on: June 09, 2012, 07:46:03 PM »
So, I've been thinking and I've some new connections to many different characters that mostly spin some old Arthurian legends and, well, comic books. Some of this is inspired by Jack Kirby, a comic book artist and editor.

My theories began with similarities between Bob and Etrigan the Demon (he was one of Jack Kirby's DC Comics creations). Etrigan was the son of the demon Belial, and half-brother to Merlin. He has orange skin (the same colour as Bob's eyes), horns, and ears shaped like bat wings.

Merlin summoned Etrigan to gain his secrets and unable to do so, bound him to Jason Blood, a knight in King Arthur's court. This rendered Jason immortal (similarities to Harry) and he often thought of it as penance or a curse. After the Fall of Camelot Jason Blood and Madame Xanadu (those of you that read Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, she is identified as Nimue, youngest sister of Morgana/Morgaine Le Fay) keep traveling England for an unspecified time, assembling a rag-tag team of Dark Ages based heroes and villains, like Vandal Savage (solid ties to Marcone), the female Shining Knight and the warrior woman Exoristos (The Exile in Greek -- solid ties to Karrin Murphy) to fight Mordru and the Questing Queen (connections to Cowl). As eventually they parted way, Jason Blood resurfaces in recent times, becoming a prominent demonologist in Gotham City.

Etrigan is a demon from Hell who, despite his violent tendencies, usually finds himself allied to the forces of good, mainly because of the alliance between the heroic characters of the DC Universe and Jason Blood, a human to whom Etrigan is bound. Etrigan is followed by the long-lived Morgaine le Fey, who lusts for Merlin's secrets. That leads to Etrigan's first major battle. Over the years, Etrigan both clashes with and occasionally aids Earth's heroes, guided by his own whims and Jason's attempts to turn his infernal power to good use.

Remarkable what comic books can inadvertently shed light on.

4
DF Reference Collection / Re: The importance of Names.
« on: June 07, 2012, 01:01:56 AM »
--> Updated to here <--

Some nice work so far. I seemingly lost the bulk of some of my extrapolations (mostly in regards to the swords and their bearers) somewhere along the way and I'm rebuilding it from memory and researching information I did the first time around. Not to mention this little endeavour will let me savour re-reading the books in anticipation of Cold Days that much more.

Here are the requested citations:

Example of "real mccoy" usage:
[Harry]:"Valmont duped the third party into taking a decoy.  Then she grabbed the real McCoy and ran." (Ch. 14, Death Masks.)

I'm not sure what citations you want here; it's probably TMI, but it was fun skimming Morte. Feel free to pull out whatever you want, or leave it all here if it's too much speculative detail.

That's excellent. In the case of DF-specific information, as this is a spoiler zone, I'm not worried about spoiler information being displayed. In the meantime I'm condensing requested citations to book name and chapter number. In the case of non-DF information, it'll mostly be for information I can't verify myself at an earnest glance online, and the name of the source would be wonderful. (Book or movie title, author or director name, etc.) If it's on Wikipedia, that'll likely pop in a normal search I'll do to verify so I wouldn't worry much about that.

One question--are you only interested in etymologies, not in popular culture references?  If the goal is actually finding JB's inspiration/allusions, pop culture refs are probably significant/useful.  Some names also clearly are pop culture refs, e.g. the tiny tinkerbell-fairy Elidee->LED, the WOJ that explained the origin of Harry Dresden's name, and another WOJ I remember stumbling across that said that Billy and Georgia's names came from a TV program (I did a brief check and couldn't find it....Serack, as resident WOJ rockstar, do you remember it?)

I'm not certain yet. I'd like to know of course, but I'm tempted not to re-compile that information. If there's a connection between why the name was chosen and who the character is, absolutely. Otherwise, if it only fills the object of trivia, I'd say mentioning it would be lovely but I won't compile it, preferring to leave it in the WoJ so it fills a purpose too.

To this end, I added a 'possible connection' tag to infer certain things not immediately found in the meaning of the names, but rather connections to popular culture or other books (or medium) unrelated to the Dresden Files. A wonderful example of this is that you (dimpwnc) edited your reply later (after I included it) to amend that Elaine also committed suicide in two of the Arthurian tales you read. That provided a connection with what the Skavis did to her and her near-suicide attempt in the DF books. That's definitely what I'd love to include; more of the same if you any of you fine and worldly folks can find it!

Jim's frequent use of paraphrasing movies and literature has always been one of the things that cemented the Dresden books for my fertile imagination. It makes them more real when you can think of them existing in the same place as your own. Recognising little tidbits, be it a quote or a similarity to another work, always gives me a good laugh and makes me feel closer to the author.

5
DF Reference Collection / Re: The importance of Names.
« on: June 06, 2012, 06:58:14 AM »
--> Updated to here <-- minus places&things which will be affixed shortly. Also trimmed some irrelevancy and broadened others for the sake of fun.

There's a theory bouncing around that Harry has some flavor of Power based on his ability to Name people and things.  You might want to look that one up.  Some I agree with (Lash, Mouse) others I think are a stretch (Shagnasty, Uri) but it could tie into what you're talking about here.

The act of naming implies all beings with independent will have the ability to Name something, especially true of Wizards. When Harry shortens Uriel's name to Uri and dropping El, literally God, the removal of God from Uriel is a corruption of the archangel's name and a blow to his beliefs. It has an ominous significance. Call a man something (murderer, criminal, animal) and chances are eventually he'll believe it or otherwise act on or because of it.

Let all who Name things truly use care and wisdom.

6
DF Reference Collection / Re: The importance of Names.
« on: June 05, 2012, 01:57:18 PM »
Updating after work. Interesting so far!

@Serak: I never saw that article, re: Jim's naming of Harry. Thanks for that!

Having read his Codex Alera series and then the Dresden Files, I quickly took note of the significance Jim often attributed to names. As with all things, sometimes the meaning behind a name or place is accidental. For instance, Dresden being the seat of kings in Germany is illuminating, but probably insignificant; it's not like Harry's going to bear one of the swords. (To stir the pot, there's more than one Dresden, although she's probably assuming another surname?) To that end I'm sure I'll be posting irrelevant information in parts that sound interesting, but which will likely get pruned or otherwise truncated later for brevity and ease of reading. As Joe Friday from Dragnet was so fond of saying, "Just the facts, ma'am." It's a place to start, anyway.

Most of my information as to the meaning and significance of names is largely things I've picked up over the years, or purloined from the web at large via google. Some of it may be a little fanciful, as we try to read meaning into it like a tarot card, but it's fun nonetheless. Something to note: there are perfectly wonderful compilations of character histories on wikipedia, which is why this thread serves as more of a speculative look into the meaning of the names involved. Some of it will be simple, some of it will be eye-opening; they can't all be gems and that's fine. :)

Also, my thanks to everyone for picking it up and running with it!

7
DF Reference Collection / Re: The importance of Names.
« on: June 05, 2012, 03:47:11 AM »
Reserved for places & things. (Uncertain of how large a post's digit count is, so better safe than sorry.)

8
DF Reference Collection / The importance of Names.
« on: June 05, 2012, 03:29:19 AM »
As we've seen throughout the Dresden Files, Names have power and meaning. The full and proper recitation of a name for the former, and clues as to their true nature in the latter. Monoc Securities, for instance --"Monoc" is derivative of two words, mon meaning one and oc meaning eye. It's one of our first hints as to the nature of the man in charge, Odin One-eye, Allfather.

To that end, the intent of this thread is to pool together what we know of all the names in the Dresden-verse for people curious and to otherwise occupy a few hours in good company.

We have several categories to delve into. People (broad subject - includes entities), places (areas and structures), and things (objects). Labels are pesky but can be useful for formatting. Contributions are greatly appreciated! As I don't want to start this off without the chance to talk to people, nor take away from the fun of posting said contributions, I'll start this off fairly simply and without a huge compilation of data. Of course, I will pool information as respectfully as possible and include citations where possible, both from this thread and piecemeal from others if the posters aren't available to do so themselves.

To narrow down my intentions: this is strictly Names, their origins and meanings, not who the people are, etcetera. Don't hesitate to add such, as I love theories and conversation, I'm just clarifying what will be collected. There's a lovely reference at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Dresden_Files_characters for character histories already. (Just remember, there are more people than listed there!)

So, let's start!

  • People (presently formatted by last names)

    Bob: No meaning, as it's not his true Name. It's my belief that Harry picked a Name intentionally devoid of reason to sever ties to Bob's past self. Possible connections: Bears striking similarities to Jack Kirby's creation, Etrigan, Merlin's demon half-brother, the son of the demon Belial. Merlin summons Etrigan and, unable to gain the creature's secrets, Merlin bonds the demon with Jason Blood, a knight in King Arthur's Camelot. This renders Jason immortal, though at times he considers this either penance or a curse. Etrigan resembles a squat, muscular humanoid with orange skin (the colour of Bob's eyes), horns, ears resembling bat wings. His DC Universe connections usually found him allied to the forces of good, mainly because of the alliance between the DC heroes and Jason Blood, a human to whom Etrigan is bound.

    Carpenter, Michael: The name Michael is of Hebrew origin, meaning "who resembles God." Possible connections: {Biblical} Michael is the archangel (chief or principal angel) who defeats the dragon. He and Gabriel are angels given personal names in the canonical Bible. Many saints, emperors, and kings have bourne the name.

    Carpenter, Molly: The name Molly is of Irish and Latin origin, meaning "star of the sea." Pet form of Mary (occasionally Margaret). In use since the late Middle Ages. Possible connections: In the past, "moll" had meant a prostitute or a gangster's girlfriend. (Making the use of this name uncommon prior to the late 20th century.)

    Dresden, Harry: Nothing that fits yet. Family surname footnote: Dresden is the name of the capital city of the Free State of Saxony in Germany. Dresden has a long history as the capital and royal residence for the Electors and Kings of Saxony, who for centuries furnished the city with cultural and artistic splendour. Possible connections: The word Dresden means "people of the riverside forest." (Given the nature of Harry's name, as stated on WoJ, finding deeper meaning may be a fool's errand. Challenge accepted!) Possible connections:  Similarities to Jack Kirby's creation, Jason Blood, a knight in King Arthur's Camelot. See reference under Bob. Jason Blood was bonded to Etrigan the demon by Merlin, who sought Etrigan's secrets. The immortality this bond granted him was often viewed a curse or penance. In one tale, Jason actually becomes Etrigan but later becomes himself once more. (Congruent of Ghost Story, wherein Harry becomes a spirit like Bob.)

    Justine (no surname): The name is of Latin origin, meaning "fair." Justina was the original form. Possible connections: According to legend, Saint Justina (fourth century) was a Christian maiden who converted Cyprian, a powerful sorcerer.

    Kumori: A Japanese word (kumori (hiragana くもり)) meaning cloudy or cloudy weather or shadow. Possible connections: Kumori is associated, if not an outright member, of the Black Council. Her actions in the Dresden books (which book? citation needed) were not those of a ruthless or heartless person. The Japanese words for black, Kuro, Kuroi, is noteworthy in the interpretation. (contributors: dimpwnc.)

    Langtry, Arthur: The name Arthur is of Celtic origin appears to have been first found in the Latin form Artorius, which is of obscure origin. Other possible sources include artos, the Celtic word for "bear" and an Irish Gaelic word meaning "stone." Surname footnote An ancient name of several spellings derives either from the village of Langtree, near Wigan in Lancashire, or from Langtree near Torrington, in Devon. The traditional explanation for the name is "the high tree," such places being commonly the local tribal meeting place, however the Devon village name may be "the high tor." Possible connections: An obvious connection to Merlin (his position throughout the DF books) through the Arthurian legends by way of his first name. (contributors: dimpwnc.)

    Luccio, Anastasia: Anastasia is of Greek origin, meaning "resurrection". From the word anastasis. Surname footnote: Luccio literally translates to "perch," so nothing relevant (yet). Possible connections: Body swapping from an older to a younger woman, or something foreshadowed for later. (contributors: Icecream)

    Macanally, "Mac": Mac is a name of Gaelic origin and means "Son of." Surname footnote: An honest to goodness Irish name, not nearly as whimsical as it appears. The usual form of this name in Irish is Mac an Fhailghigh, the derivation of which is obscure (in modern Irish failgheach means poor man). These words are pronounced approximately MacAnally and this is quite a common alternative form of the name in English.

    Marcone, John: John has a biblical reference, it was the name of the longest-lived of the 12 apostles. Surname footnote: Marcone is recorded in over one hunded spelling forms from the English Mark, dating back to Roman times. It originates from the popular pre-Christian baptismal name "Marcus", itself a development of the word "mar", meaning to gleam, although there is also a possible asscoiation with "Mars", the god of war. Possible connections: Bears some similarities to Vandal the Savage, a supervillain and sometimes ally of Jason Blood in DC Comics. Savage is immortal, and has plagued the earth with crime and violence since before the beginning of recorded human history. He is a brilliant tactician with immense technological prowess. He is one of DC's most persistent villains and has fought hundreds of heroes throughout history.

    Mallory, Elaine: The name Elaine is of Greek origin, meaning "sun ray; shining light". French variant of Helen. Surname footnote: Mallory is an English surname thought to be derived from a French word meaning "beautiful." Possible connections: One potential choice is (author) Thomas Malory's Elaine who acted as bearer of the Holy Grail. The same Elaine who tricks Lancelot into sleeping with her, trapping him in the role of her lover. Also of note, In Once and Future King, like Elaine of Astolat, she also commits suicide -- which mirrors what she nearly accomplishes in White Night at the hands of a Skavis. (contributers: dimpwnc)

    Martin (no surname): The name is of Latin origin, meaning "dedicated to Mars". The name originates with the Roman war god, Mars.

    McCoy, Ebenezar: The name Ebenazar is of Hebrew origin, meaning "Stone of help." Surname footnote: McCoy is an Anglicisation of its Irish Gaelic form Mac Aodha, meaning "son of Aodh" (an old word for "Fire", a Celtic deity). Possible connection: The expression "The real McCoy", colloquially means "the genuine article." (Harry has used the idiom in the books -- Death Masks, chapter 14.) (contributors: Elegast, dimpwnc, and Serack.)

    Morgan, Donald: The name Donald is of Gaelic origin, meaning "great chief; world mighty". Donald is one of the clan names of Scotland. (Recorded as Donald, Doneld, Donnell, and the patronymic Donaldson, it is derived from Mac Domhnall, or the son of Domhall, composed of the elements dubro meaning world and val -- to rule.) Surname footnote: Morgan is of Welsh, Irish, and Scottish origins. In Welsh origin it means either "great kingdom" or "great hundred". (contributors: dimpwnc.)

    Murphy, Karrin: Karrin as a girl's name is a variant of Catherine (Greek), Karen (Danish) and Katherine (Greek), and the meaning of Karrin is "pure." Surname footnote: Murphy is an Anglicized version of two Irish surnames: Ó Murchadha/Ó Murchadh ("descendant of Murchadh"), and Mac Murchaidh/Mac Murchadh ("son of Murchadh") / derived from the Irish personal name Murchadh, which meant "sea-warrior" or "sea-battler". (Muir meaning "sea" and cath meaning "battle"). A stretch to imply meaning (a warrior) on so common a name, but it makes for good genealogy at least. Possible connections: The female Shining Knight (a play on words of Karrin's name) and the warrior woman Exoristos (The Exile in Greek), a companion of Jason Blood. Murphy's displacement and eventual loss of her job as a police officer make her an exile in similar fashion.

    Raith, Lara: The name Lara is of Latin origin, and means "protection." From "Lares", referring to the individual gods of Roman households, the protectors of home and fields. Also possibly (Latin) "cheerful; famous". It may also be traced to the Greek Larissa. Surname footnote: a Wraith is an apparition of a living person supposed to portend his or her death. Possible connections: Lara might be a reference to Lara of the novel Dr. Zhivago.  The Lara in that story is a quintessential femme fatale who uses her sexuality to seduce and control the men around her.  She also has a tempestuous relationship with her mother's lover (at one point she tries to shoot him); she starts out somewhat in his thrall, but ends up manipulating him. (Sound familiar?) (contributors: dimpwnc.)

    Raith, Thomas: The name Thomas is of Aramaic origin, and means "twin." Possible connections: {Biblical} one of the 12 apostles known as "doubting Thomas" as he has an unusual mixture of pessimism and zealous faith. Some say his full name was Judas Thomas (Judas the Twin), and the nickname distinguished him from Judas Iscariot.

    Rudolph (no surname): The name is of Old German origin, and means "famous wolf."

    Sanya (no surname): Sanya is a variant of the Arabic word Sani (masculine of Saniyya (feminine)) and means "splendid; brilliant; benevolent," et al. (No surname limits further connections to the sword.)

More later!

9
Display Case / Re: Perfect Casting, part 2
« on: June 02, 2012, 08:40:22 PM »
See, part of me agrees with the unknown actors bit, at least for the lead roles.  Part of me thinks that lesser known actors that are still good would be best, so that when people watch, they see the characters, not the actors they know playing the characters.

On the other hand, putting in some well known actors would bring some legitimacy to the show, and garner fan interest.  For instance, casting Nathan Fillion as Michael Carpenter would interest his entire fanbase, and might increase viewership.  But it has to be the right fit for the character first.

I think having guest appearances by big names would be best.  I like the idea of Helen Mirren as Mother Summer and Judi Dench as Mother Winter.  Big names that can also act the part convincingly.  And I like the idea of casting capable actors in really small parts too.  I've always pictured Michael Chiklis as Mac, even though he doesn't fit the physical description.  But the first time I thought of Michael Chiklis in the series was page one of SF, when JB described the new mailman as looking like a basketball.  I immediately though of Chiklis.  Casting more recognized people for smaller parts would definitely be a plus, as long as they fit.

I can easily concede you those points.

Lesser known actors, such as Peter Dinklage who has done a fair bit of filmwork prior to starring in Game of Thrones, pass off their parts with aplomb and weight that most of us simply wouldn't have expected. Despite familiarity with the actor and a great deal of character discrepancies (Tyrion's appearance vs Peter's), it just feels right that he was cast for that part.

I'm a huge fan of Nathan Fillion (admittedly mostly from his work on Firefly and thereafter), and despite those very impressionable roles, he still has some flexibility and hasn't been typecast in his works as strongly as, say, Timothy Olyphant (Deadwood, Justified; always the dignified but loose cannon pretty-boy lawman). He could certainly do, as you exampled, Michael convincingly. But could someone do better? I think so. And I'd take that risk in a heartbeat, despite my manly love for Nathan.

There's also the concern that well established actors justifiably get paid more, and that would detract from the film's overall budget. Certainly the film could gross more due to the fanbase the actors bring with them, but it doesn't change the budget of the film and that's very important. Sets & effects vs actor appeal isn't a hard decision in my books. I'm as much a proponent of actor-driven dramas, but the stage has to be convincing too otherwise it all falls apart.

I've been told I'm a pragmatic sort of thinker in this regard, as I remove possibilities based on the above. I still enjoy visualising what people are suggesting for parts though. Without scrolling back over 337 pages, what are the fan favourites at the moment? The poll doesn't seem very indicative.

10
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: Gravatar/Avatar
« on: June 02, 2012, 07:59:24 PM »
Aha!

I was wondering how the issue of custom avatars would be resolved, given that I'd seen a few on the forums but couldn't for the life of me find any documentation elsewhere. I suppose I'm the sort that likes to resolve issues like appearance before presenting myself, so I had held off from reading the forums to avoid the temptation to post without a face (as it were). No Rorschach connotations intended.

I'm glad this topic was readily visible.

11
Display Case / Re: Perfect Casting, part 2
« on: June 01, 2012, 06:02:26 AM »
Tim Burton does not work well with other people's material. He's a talented director but I don't want him within a mile of The Dresden Files.

I can see the simple truth in that. Furthermore, his works tend to be very similar to one another and it's important that the subject matter (any subject matter) that you did not create but took on is dealt with in its own, unique way.

As to the cast, I'm pretty much in the corner of those that would hope for otherwise "unknown" actors (and actresses) taking the lead roles. This isn't to say that they're blank slates, but that they're not really famous for a particular role at the time of their casting. Whether this is possible remains to be seen, although it's worked for quite a few shows that made this gutsy move that usually flies counter to what producers and studio execs want. But those producers and executives aren't in it for the show, they're speaking entirely from greed. The less they have their sticky fingers in something the better the projects always are. (This applies to movies and television equally. There are numerous examples; out of sequence episodes, poor but famous ensemble casts that have absolutely no chemistry, etcetera.)

Pages: [1]