ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JosephKell on July 13, 2010, 06:35:18 AM

Title: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: JosephKell on July 13, 2010, 06:35:18 AM
"The Catch (YS 185) is silver.  Silver is so dangerous for therianthropes that touching it burns the skin (resulting in compels against high concept), and if it gets into the blood (such as from a penetrating injury) it acts like venomous claws with a Fists score equal to the initial stress of the injury."

For instance, if the character was hit with a silver club (say someone alloyed silver metal onto a bat), it would ignore the toughness and recovery powers.

If that same character were stabbed with a silver knife (Weapon:1) with 1 effect, he would have to make Endurance checks against a Fair attack every exchange or take a physical stress equal to the effect.

Yes, this obviously can mean that a silver poisoned creature is almost "insta-gibbed."
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 06:44:51 AM
Probably another +1 or so. Maybe +2 (matching the cost of Venomous), but that'd really be pushing it, since it doesn't always apply. I'd say +1 is totally balanced.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Drachasor on July 13, 2010, 07:14:34 AM
Probably another +1 or so. Maybe +2 (matching the cost of Venomous), but that'd really be pushing it, since it doesn't always apply. I'd say +1 is totally balanced.

You mean +1 over and beyond straight up costs for silver as a normal catch, yes?
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 07:19:38 AM
You mean +1 over and beyond straight up costs for silver as a normal catch, yes?

That is indeed what I meant, yes. Which is likely +3 or +4 depending on whether it looks like a werewolf or not (for a total of +4 or +5 with this 'enhancement').
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: JosephKell on July 13, 2010, 07:33:09 AM
That is indeed what I meant, yes. Which is likely +3 or +4 depending on whether it looks like a werewolf or not (for a total of +4 or +5 with this 'enhancement').
Why does it looking like a werewolf make it more "catchy"?  This seems like it should be exactly the same catch bonus as faerie receive since the big threat is from clued in individuals.

Or is "Werewolves Die from Silver" more common knowledge than "Use Iron on Faeries?"
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 07:37:43 AM
Yes, it really is. There aren't a crapload of movies about the Fae and iron.

Also, there's a reason I specified 'looks like a werewolf', most fae do not look like what most think of as a 'Faerie', which IMO is a large part of the reason their Catch isn't +4 since people who haven't dealt with that specific critter before don't know it's Fae and thus don't know to use Cold Iron. Something that looks like a werewolf? You pretty much know to try silver.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Korwin on July 13, 2010, 07:43:01 AM
*mumbles*
Still, the weapon used against an Fae, could by accident be an (Cold) Iron Weapon...

Silver Swords arent as common as Steel/Iron Swords (or Crowbars for that matter)...

Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 07:52:08 AM
True! But frequency of occurence isn't actually part of the cost structure, just ease of acquisition, and silver's pretty easy to get.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Korwin on July 13, 2010, 08:36:22 AM
True! But frequency of occurence isn't actually part of the cost structure, just ease of acquisition, and silver's pretty easy to get.

Yeah, Silver is easy to get. But...
one could argue, its not so easy to get Silver bullets or Silver-Swords (or Silver crowbars for that matter).
(
(click to show/hide)
Shure thats not a problem for NSC's...)

Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Drachasor on July 13, 2010, 09:39:29 AM
Yeah, Silver is easy to get. But...
one could argue, its not so easy to get Silver bullets or Silver-Swords (or Silver crowbars for that matter).
(
(click to show/hide)
Shure thats not a problem for NSC's...)

Granted about Murphy, but in actuality silver bullets are hard to make.  The same techniques one would use to make homemade normal bullets won't work with a soft metal like silver.  Jim didn't do his research there, but it isn't a very common thing to look into, I admit.

Frankly, I think Iron should be a +4 catch, just because so many weapons are made out of it anyhow (an adjustment to the pricing system would be needed, with a +3 availability option indicating that weapons are very commonly made out of the material).  Frankly, there's no need to guess if something is a Fae or not...just have your weapons be steel to be safe -- it's negligible effort.  Anyhow, it's a bit unclear how much appearance plays into the default catch rules in terms of research.

As for Werewolves, they have kind of the opposite thing going on.  Only some of them have catches to Silver and many things that look like them don't (and the Loup-Garou needs very special silver).  That muddles the knowledge issue a good bit.  Still, normal silver for a werewolf-like creature sounds like a +3 to me...+4 seems a bit too high.  I agree with Deadmanwalking's take on the mod, and I'd also say it is ONLY +1 because the catch bonus is so good.  A +0 catch that acts like a poison shouldn't get your anything, since it is so hard to get the catch to begin with, imho.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 13, 2010, 03:11:27 PM
In classic mythology, the Fae catch was cold iron; unalloyed iron.  This is still easy to obtain (any cooking store will have cast-iron skillets, for instance) but not something that everyone carries on them at all times.

And remember that PCs are exceptional, clued-in the the supernatural.  How many normal Joes and Janes even CARRY weapons, of ANY type?  Or have any training in their use? 
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Nomad on July 13, 2010, 04:44:02 PM
Actually unless you are loaded with birdshot, none of the regular bullets (except very cheap stuff) satisfy the cold iron catch.
Out of hand I would say than an average npc has a 50/50 chance of being armed with a tire iron or baseball bat.
So although the cold iron catch is very easy to fullfill, it doesn't happen as much as it seems (normally. PCs are a totally different matter.)


On silver bullets; I would say that for anyone with +2 or better on guns, there is a big chance of having access to hand loading. These people shoot a lot (for plinking, for recreation, to stay in shape, whatever)  and handloading makes it cost less. 
True you can't make a military grade bullet out of silver but for a reduced civilian load,  they make ok bullets.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Drachasor on July 13, 2010, 06:25:06 PM
Actually unless you are loaded with birdshot, none of the regular bullets (except very cheap stuff) satisfy the cold iron catch.
Out of hand I would say than an average npc has a 50/50 chance of being armed with a tire iron or baseball bat.
So although the cold iron catch is very easy to fullfill, it doesn't happen as much as it seems (normally. PCs are a totally different matter.)

Steel-jacketed bullets would do the trick though.  Might require making sure your pistol/whatever was bought with the capability to handle such rounds in mind.

On silver bullets; I would say that for anyone with +2 or better on guns, there is a big chance of having access to hand loading. These people shoot a lot (for plinking, for recreation, to stay in shape, whatever)  and handloading makes it cost less. 
True you can't make a military grade bullet out of silver but for a reduced civilian load,  they make ok bullets.

My point above was that making the actual silver bullet is NOT trivial.  You need materials suitable for dealing with softer metals, so that's actually really custom stuff.  That's what I found out when I looked into silver bullets for an RPG once.  There ARE silver bullets for sale out there, but they are very expensive and rare because of this.  Making them yourself is very difficult and not the same as making normal bullets.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Nomad on July 13, 2010, 06:49:49 PM
You are correct but for game terms, letting a character that has access to a full deal workspace (even if everything is the most basic grade) for custom loading bullets, to smelt his/her own 45 grams of silver is not that much of a strech. (in other words crafting custom bullets using guns "ritual") All you actually need is 3,4 pieces of extra equipment
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: JosephKell on July 13, 2010, 09:00:23 PM
So, any thoughts on why Fae don't have some sort of venomous reaction to cold iron?

Did the Evil Hat guys not think of it?  Or discard it because it is unnecessarily vicious or an extra annoyance?

Maybe an extra +1 catch for most fae is meaningless since they tend to only have -2 or -4 worth of toughness stuff?
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 09:28:17 PM
Uh...because that's not the reaction they have in the books? Iron hurts them, but it doesn't inevitably lead to them falling unconcious after you hit them with it. It works precisely like The Catch is supposed to work.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: JosephKell on July 13, 2010, 10:24:53 PM
Uh...because that's not the reaction they have in the books? Iron hurts them, but it doesn't inevitably lead to them falling unconcious after you hit them with it. It works precisely like The Catch is supposed to work.
Didn't the
(click to show/hide)
?

I thought that was the whole reason using iron is such taboo.  I think iron is their green kryptonite (weakening and poisonous) as opposed to blue kryptonite (which just made him human).
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 10:27:46 PM
Sure, but her attacks in that case were enough to kill them. Later on in the same book Fae step on Iron nails and get hit with swords without any similar instant death. The Fae erupt into flames when killed by cold iron, but they aren't any easier to kill with it than a human...just not any harder, either (unlike with everything else).
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: ryanroyce on July 14, 2010, 03:13:24 AM
Granted about Murphy, but in actuality silver bullets are hard to make.  The same techniques one would use to make homemade normal bullets won't work with a soft metal like silver.  Jim didn't do his research there, but it isn't a very common thing to look into, I admit.

 Is silver that much softer than lead?  I mean, you wouldn't need to make the ENTIRE bullet out of silver, just replace the lead core of a normal copper-cased bullet with silver.  I know that silver melts at a much higher temperature than lead and would need steel or iron molds instead of aluminum, but that's a matter of gear as opposed to skill.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: JosephKell on July 14, 2010, 03:33:26 AM
Actually, I think Silver has the same rough hardness as Lead.  Gold is the "soft" metal.

No one melts metal (called "casting") to make bullets anymore (at least no one with two brain cells to rub together and access to the proper tools).  It is all pressed through holes (called "swaging").

Casting can create air bubbles inside the bullets (thereby making it unreliable).  But swaging basically pushes the metal so hard that it "squishes" through the smaller opening (forcing a solid to "flow" like a liquid) into the shape of the bullet.
Title: Re: How bad (+ refresh) is this Silver Catch (like suffering from venomous claws)
Post by: Drachasor on July 14, 2010, 09:33:34 AM
Is silver that much softer than lead?  I mean, you wouldn't need to make the ENTIRE bullet out of silver, just replace the lead core of a normal copper-cased bullet with silver.  I know that silver melts at a much higher temperature than lead and would need steel or iron molds instead of aluminum, but that's a matter of gear as opposed to skill.

Hey, I don't know the exact details.  This was me looking up silver bullets on the internet for fun months ago on a whim.  If there were actual werewolves and I needed them for that then I'd remember better!  All I remember is that it requires different tools, suitable for making jewelry out of precious metals, and is harder to do right compared to what people normally use to make homemade bullets.

Maybe it is a casting thing vs. the swaging that Joseph is talking about.

And I just checked, lead is not nearly as hard as silver, but silver is very comparable to gold.  Melting point and hardness do not necessarily relate, as melting point is more about just bond strength and hardness also has to do with the crystalline structure.