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Messages - K.L.O.E.

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1
DF Spoilers / Re: The Gods of Pro Wrestling
« on: January 14, 2022, 02:49:43 AM »
Loki is evolving into the God of Stories in the comics (as opposed to Lies) that would make him Vince McMahon. Indeed Jim has shield away from questions involving Loki but has dealt with Thor in relation to Odin.

What if the whole Pro Wrestlers as gods is a misdirect and it’s not the talent but the organisers it’s focussing on?

Isn't stories about war also part of Ares portfolio?

There's a ton of places to go with that. Look at Vince McMahon, Vince Russo and Bischoff or even Tony Khan. All of them have over the top personalities which could be taken as building blocks for a flawed god complex (VKM for sure).

What really triggered this thread was realizing how many connections Shonen Manga have with the world of pro wrestling and how much they draw on Journey to the West which led me a Son Wukong hair clone as an inoffensive wrestler to use. Even if the clone gets jobbed out you know absolutely no one short of Uriel would want to fight the real deal Monkey King.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Identity theories
« on: January 14, 2022, 12:17:40 AM »
I have it that Odin is every significant Dragonslayer except Michael, both Odin and Beowulf are Dragonslayers, and Kringle (as St Nicholas) banished dragons. He and Ferro really do not get along so I wonder if all those dragons were either Ferro under another name, or his kin. Michael had the good grace to give his condolences and was respectful. I doubt Odin ever was.

The obvious candidate left is St George.

If you go into a Greek Myth then there is also Cadmus

And here is another theory Drakul is Romanian for Dragon what if Drakul posed as dragons? If the Dragons in the Dresdenverse were landscapers why would they be interested in human sacrifice?

Was the conflict between Odin and Ferro largely caused by Drakul?

So you're thinking Drakul is a Dragon shoved into the body of a Starborn? That's worth thinking about.

I also wonder what Drakul and company were up to during the French Revolution. Lots of blood and mindless people to control.

As for Odin maybe he was Erik the Red? Helping lead people to the new world?

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DF Spoilers / Re: The Gods of Pro Wrestling
« on: January 14, 2022, 12:04:25 AM »
Though, I wonder, would such a god then be the god of 'fighting a scripted battle with pre-determined winners'? Would be a lousy job title when faced with e.g. Harry 'the rules are more like guidelines, really' Dresden.

LOL. The god of battle stories isn't a bad role and besides, who's to say they'll be an antagonist?

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DF Spoilers / Re: Peace Talks interesting things and questions
« on: January 06, 2022, 11:32:44 PM »
I don't think it was implied to be any being, at least from the text that I read. But I could have missed something. The story goes that Balor's grandson (Ethniu's son) Lugh used a sling to hurl a stone into his grandfather's eye, defeating him and ending the war (for a time). An obvious parallel is with David and Goliath, and historians have speculated that there may have been some crossover between the Jewish people and the Irish of that time. Whose story it was first is a little harder to say.

I don't know it's implied he could have fought Ethniu on an equal footing either. He had trouble resisting her will when she first shows up in Peace Talks. He implies that should he manifest he might do more harm to the city, but not that he could necessarily be on an equal footing. I would agree that it would certainly have been more of an issue for Ethniu, but even if he were on par with her (a bold claim), he would lose by default as both Chicago would be razed AND local reality would collapse, which is why he went to the Never never to stop it doing just that.

The other possibility is that Ethniu ripped her own eye out, and as Harry implies, gained the Eye of Balor from her son. It might never be a question that gets answered. But I think it is interesting regardless.

Furthermore, how did she get covered in Titanic Bronze?
This is why I think who gave her the Eye is important. Only the Hundred-Handed Ones knew it's secret, so even for a Titan it isn't easy to get. But some powerful players set her up nicely for a war. I'd say there a big movers and shakers behind the scenes, and Cowl is merely an agent of them. Perhaps more powerful than Ethniu, perhaps by a lot. Remember, everyone supernatural seemed very shocked she was covered in Titanic Bronze as well. She definitely wasn't back in the good old days where she had sacrifices made to her.

Yes, as Mira points out we did see Eb on Demonreach unfortunately. But I am curious to why you asked that question...what's the significance of him being on the Island? Lots of Denarians have been on the Island (notably before Harry properly awakened it) and the implication is that Nemesis isn't too worried once it gets on the Island. Nemesis seems to think once it was on the Island it would only be a matter of time before it got in and started breaking things out...or causing enough chaos as a byproduct that it's ultimate mission becomes inevitable.

Isn't her son a sun god? That qualifies as a being in my book.

My question about Eb more relates to would Demonreach be able to ID him as a Denarian after the fact? Does intellectus provide that sort of metaphysical memory? Alfred may also be able to ID the blackstaff as well if they can.

I'm not sure how much Nemesis knows about the island unless they possessed a Warden at some point in time. They may know what's stored there and have an idea of some of the defenses but really where else would they learn the details?

Really though I agree. The crux of the matter is where did the Bronze come from?

5
DF Spoilers / Re: The Gods of Pro Wrestling
« on: January 06, 2022, 11:06:24 PM »
Well yes and no. We know plenty of Gods existed prior to Creation, so clearly had power before people were even a thing. So not so sure belief did affect them, until the mortal came along and started changing the rules. Hell, I expect that was part of the fun. Boring old stasis, can't change who you are as an immortal, along comes mortals with their beliefs and choices and suddenly you can. Very tempting for an immortal I am sure. But also, obvious downsides too.

Hard to know how close to omnipotent and omnipresent the gods were/are. Zeus and Quetzalcoatl and the Mothers are all around Uriel level, and he seems to be nigh-omnipotent and exists in every universe at all times. But all of them? I am not so sure.

The whole immortality bit is also part of why I think there would be more gods as wrestlers than reality stars. Both are scripted but grappling has existed since before we came down from the tress. Reality shows are a bit of a new fangled thing and I don't see many gods changing that fast (but I could be very wrong)

6
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace Talks interesting things and questions
« on: January 04, 2022, 01:48:51 PM »
1. Who cut out Ethniu's eye?
Obviously would have to be something big, both literally and figuratively. It's our assumption that the Black Council are the ones who gave her the Eye, as it fits their M.O.

That being said, it could have been another group. Say, Tessa and Imariel and her more chaotic Denarians? They all love chaos and destruction. But also, what about the Outsiders themselves?

I could definitely see He Who Walks Behind having a role. He's been established as more than a demon, more than a hitman; he's a manipulator and a peer of Uriel. So he could definitely tear out the eye of a Goddess. He also could be large enough to leave such big scars. We have to remember that anything that could scar Titanic Bronze on a Titan is a serious being.

Another candidate is Lucifer himself. But why he would get that involved is harder to work out.

I'd assumed it was either another Titan/God or a Dragon. We don't know who or what intervened when Balor made the eye in the first place (I'm assuming something major got involved as well Titans). It's implied that Ferrovax fully manifested could fight Ethniu on relatively equal footing it would just shatter reality and Ferro may die in the process. So maybe another Dragon took the eye from Balor and hid it then Ethniu went and got it? Or did the eye end up with the Hundred Handed Ones and she got the Bronze and the eye at the same time?

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2. Is Ebenezar a Denarian?Now, it could just be about the amount of power in the staff that Ebenezar was putting into it. But. I seem to remember Harry's own runes on his staff used to glow the same color when using magic while he possessed a Coin. Considering how angry and barely controlled Ebenezar is...I could see a Denarian egging him along. One of the big things with Denarians is the reveal, the sucker punch. It would be quite the surprise to learn he is a Denarian.

The question is why? He already is a wizard, so he has power. He already wields the Blackstaff, so he already has a dark deal. Why get another? And when would he have done it? Why isn't he aiding the other Denarians?

Hard to say on any accounts. Perhaps, like Mab, he needs all the power he can get to do what he feels he has to. Cowl felt much the same. Simon even expressed sentiments of frustration on the limitations of being a wizard in the Paranet Papers. When he would have done it is impossible to tell, but I would guess it would have been before the Blackstaff was his (in this hypothetical scenario). And perhaps we just don't see him aid the other Denarians because it's all in the background. Or perhaps he is a rebel (along with his Fallen) and doesn't care to help the others. Or perhaps...he is leading the other Nemesis-infected beings, and he and his Fallen are in the same boat.

This theory is perfect. Have we ever seen Ebenezer on Demonreach? If he's been avoiding it that adds further credence to the theory.

7
DF Spoilers / Re: The Gods of Pro Wrestling
« on: January 04, 2022, 01:33:00 PM »
I hadn't considered how blatant Heaven and Hell were in interfering during the Battle of Chicago. I'm sure part of what allowed Ethniu to fully manifest was the Titanic Bronze armour.

I think we've missed in this discussion is the difference between a parasocial fandom relationship and worship or in other words the relationship between a god and their worshippers. To paraphrase Ian Cameron Esselmont in Orb Sceptre Throne "Ascendancy (a lesser form of Godhood in the Malazan world) is a constant battle between what your worshippers want and what you want". A parasocial relationship is a one way thing, worship isn't. As discussed the largest religious groups in Chicago are Monotheistic incarnations of the White God, worshippers were under threat so the White God intervened in a pretty dramatic fashion.

There are also limits to standard celebrity, it's incredibly difficult to control the narrative around yourself in the modern celebrity ecosystem and what are gods if not narratives given power and flesh? Someone mentioned the college athlete who doesn't win the big one and if a god were to keep adopting that guise they would become the god of close but no cigar.

Which brings me back to the beautiful art of pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is stunts tied together by a story and you can reuse the same narratives over and over again almost like telling a myth. For a god who is a pro wrestler (and I'm betting Thor will have crossed over to pro wrestling like so many football players before him) you can use your control of the narrative to maintain your domain and when you are prayed too by your devotees you can offer something back. Imagine for a second you're the underdog in a competition, you know you should lose but refuse to. Now praying to Heath Slater (or whatever memetic loser you want to pick) isn't going to help much, while praying to a god inspired by Rey Mysterio or Bryan Danielson may get you somewhere.

As for Elon if he is a god I'd speculate he's Mammon or someone like that. He didn't invent squat and really pursues some counterintuitive goals in the name of greed.

8
DF Spoilers / Re: The Gods of Pro Wrestling
« on: December 31, 2021, 06:56:27 PM »
Not always the team, sometimes you have a player who stands head and shoulders above the team, a Pele, a Maradonna, a Best, a Ronaldo, a Messi, and they are truly lionised by the world as something truly special.

There is no scripting, no stunts, everything they do is real if not hyper real, bestriding the world as the best and it’s champions, they don’t merely have a fan base, they are capable of bringing a country together behind them, and having the rest of the world agog with their genius applauding their own teams defeat.

Wrestling is unique in the way it uses long term story telling to create a mythology around a character or even just a move over time. Plus the careers can be way longer. Just look at Sting who's been wrestling since the late 70s. While the singular talent of a Ronaldo, Messi, Maradona, Pele, LeBron, Jordan, Gretzky, Tendulkar, Hamilton, Bolt, or Ali come along they are lionized but its just a direct cheering for the act and the game or the race. When you have godlike power there's no competition in a race. When wrestling a god could live out the same story over and over again and receive godlike devotion from a fanbase. It's the perfect cover.

Agreed. Can't stand wrestling.

Gods who need worship would become celebrities, athletes, actors, singers. I could see some of the Greeks becoming reality tv stars- though I dislike reality tv more then wrestling, it fits with their narcissisms. Particularly given Naricssis is Greek himself.

I could totally see a few being reality TV stars or Actors or something as well. We already got the White Court running parts of the porn industry. There's probably a bunch of various immortals in soap operas as well.

9
DF Spoilers / Re: The Gods of Pro Wrestling
« on: December 31, 2021, 12:59:48 AM »
What don't you like about wrestling? (If you don't mind me asking)

I get why they'd be wrestlers over anything else:
  • the fandom is specific to you, not a team
  • pre-amalgamation you could tour the territories, Europe, and Japan forever and people wouldn't notice the pesky not aging bit
  • it's a combat "sport" that uses holds that existed since Greece
  • super strength is less noticeable in wrestling as anything can be explained away as a "work"

10
DF Spoilers / The Gods of Pro Wrestling
« on: December 30, 2021, 09:37:19 PM »
I was thinking about this the other day and I'm almost certain we'll see a Monkey King hair clone or something in the pro wrestling book. Thoughts?

11
DF Spoilers / Re: Odin's Raven's
« on: August 07, 2021, 07:44:14 PM »
Same thing, really. If one falls, they all fall, so they're destroyed rather than allowed to reach that point.

The relevance of the Dresdenverse would have to be that it's one of the last.

I could see Jim using Crisis on Infinite Earths as inspiration for the BAT, it is one of the OGs. Besides, anywhere there's time travel there's a multiverse and to quote an abridged perfect bug man "Multiverse Theory's a *****!"

Back on topic, I'm in the Hugin and Munin are pieces of Vadderung he splits off camp. They can act as eyes and ears remotely and they can mentally swap experiences after scouting or combat to help optimize strategies.

Given that we didn't see them engage with Ethniu or the Fomor I'm beginning to think they pulled the trigger on Gungnir frying the eye. Thoughts?

12
DF Spoilers / Re: Jim on character vs character
« on: July 27, 2021, 11:35:35 PM »
Hmm I kinda think Battle Grounds ws the last sentence of the WOJ

"Of course, sometimes everyone’s knowledge and forethought cancels each other’s actions out, and then it’s time to get all Monday Night Nitro. No one in the Dresden Files universe is really sure how that would shake out. But everyone on that level knows that they might be about to find out"

Until I have definitive proof otherwise or until it becomes more relevant.

I think Cold Days and Skin Game is more an example of his planning things out. A few key conversations with Harry that manipulate events into saving the day.

Him showing up as Kringle and the Wild Hunt to help Harry lead it.

or Kringle recommending Goodman Grey, warning Harry about Anduriels limits.

Battle Ground was the Battle Royal.

I agree with you. This was Titania at the height of her powers on the Summer Solstice. She did deflect the Eye which was awesome, and it was at night so it's possible she was weaker than the day. Those facts could make a difference in the fight but, if they could have won I think Titania, Odin, and the Erlking would prefer that to getting rag-dolled like trees in a hurricane.

13
DF Spoilers / Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« on: July 06, 2021, 06:56:42 PM »
Exactly, he made vast improvements because he had to teach Molly.  We don't know how long Marcone has had the coin, but apparently he never knew of or if he did know, take advantage of
the ancient runes in the walls of what was his castle..  All this says that Marcone isn't studying his new craft either or at all.  He is merely allowing himself to be a sock puppet for Namshiel.  This is where the problems will come from for him.

I think Harry would have missed the Runes too if he wasn't the Warden and if Bob hadn't helped Harry turn the Island's defenses on. It's also possible the Namshiel couldn't interact profitably with the Runes so he didn't point them out?

14
DF Spoilers / Re: Could any Senior Council member handle Harry if
« on: July 02, 2021, 01:37:19 PM »
Consider this: Marcone is simply the conduit for Namshiel. No inherent magical ability. Like when Bob takes over Mister or Butters gave him free reign to help out. Here's another thought: Lash would say something to the extent that she could show Harry how to call the coin or something or other magic spell. Without her, would he have been able to do it? Or, will Marcone retain the magical abilities conveyed to him once Namshiel has been removed (if)? So...no coin,no magic. Just a thought.

Cheers---Brien

I think he'd keep most of the  knowledge (like Harry with the guitar) but he'd be severely limited as far as strength. He could still do epic rituals that he'd learned from Namshiel but he wouldn't have the magic reserves to start throwing teleport spams around.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis can only be in 13 places at once?
« on: June 24, 2021, 01:35:29 PM »
Perhaps putting a crystal in the staffs head will give if thaumaturgic pull? It is interesting he's now used it as the shaft for basically Longinus. So is it's properties somehow more 'real' than before? Spells charged almost like with soul fire type concreteness?

...  :o :o

I hadn't thought of that... Maybe Harry is even more unstoppable than before?

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