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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Rubycon on August 19, 2011, 08:24:44 AM

Title: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Rubycon on August 19, 2011, 08:24:44 AM
Hi,
is it possible (or should it be), that the tattoos of St.Giles help protect "Near-Vampires" of other Courts tha the red one. As far as I know, the red and the white Court have the phenomen that inflicted persons have a half-state where they are not full vampires. So, at least for  the white Court Virgins I would assume that either the tattos of St. Giles help these Virgins, too, or that there is something simular for them.
As for the black Court, I don't know about how they get their progeny, but if they have an inflicted-but-not-crossed-over-state, than there might be a protection for them, too.
What do you think?
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 19, 2011, 09:19:36 AM
Going by proper Dracula lore, I'm going to say there is no half-turned for blampires.  Unless you want to count being dead by blampire bite but not yet having risen from the dead as one yourself as half-turned.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: SunlessNick on August 19, 2011, 09:41:31 AM
Once Dracula forced Mina to drink his blood, she was affected by holy symbols like vampires were, and Van Hesling suspected she'd rise if she died before he did.  So there's half state in that sense; it didn't give her any abilities or impose any bloodthirst though, so it's hard to see what the tattoos would be needed to guard against.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Masurao on August 19, 2011, 10:01:49 AM
We don't have any canon examples of how someone is turned into a blampire, do we? (Though, I'll admit that I may not have read their entry in OW well enough... Will fix that now)
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 19, 2011, 11:20:33 AM
Once Dracula forced Mina to drink his blood, she was affected by holy symbols like vampires were, and Van Hesling suspected she'd rise if she died before he did.  So there's half state in that sense; it didn't give her any abilities or impose any bloodthirst though, so it's hard to see what the tattoos would be needed to guard against.

Eh, depends on your interpretation I guess.  Regardless, a bedridden, non-lucid, dying character is not really in need of tattoos or even very playable.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: newtinmpls on August 19, 2011, 11:22:13 AM
Being lazy - I'm a fan of Wheeler and Rice's "if you like it, steal it" - I just go with Butcher's various comments about black court vamps being "the standard" and pretty common in "the standard" are stories that vamps aren't non-redeemable untill they actually drink blood themselves. So sure, I allow tattoos to work on them in my Dresdenverse.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Rubycon on August 19, 2011, 11:32:15 AM
What about the white Court? As I see it, many of those who grow up like normal mortals should have ethics and morals like a normal mortal. So, at least for some of them becoming a mindsucking monster isn't really an option - if only they have a chance to resist. Sure, some of them try, more or less successful.But I'm sure that a competent wizard or some sponsoring source could provide further assistance, be it with tattoos or something else.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: SunlessNick on August 19, 2011, 12:06:23 PM
Quote
Regardless, a bedridden, non-lucid, dying character is not really in need of tattoos or even very playable.  -  The Mighty Blizzard
Mina wasn't either of those things; that was Lucy.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 19, 2011, 01:12:12 PM
Mina wasn't either of those things; that was Lucy.

Fair nuff.  I plead not having read it in over a decade.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on August 19, 2011, 02:32:44 PM
I don't think they're necessary. 

White Court already has an obvious physical change (for someone looking for it).  I suppose you could put some tats on a virgin.  Unfortunately, they typically have no idea they're vamps.

Blampires have to be dead.  If you've been bitten, keep from dying and you won't turn. 

Red court is the only one where there's a deciding line that you can fight against.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 19, 2011, 02:40:16 PM
We don't have any canon examples of how someone is turned into a blampire, do we? (Though, I'll admit that I may not have read their entry in OW well enough... Will fix that now)

You might want to read the short story "It's my birthday too".
(click to show/hide)

What about the white Court? As I see it, many of those who grow up like normal mortals should have ethics and morals like a normal mortal. So, at least for some of them becoming a mindsucking monster isn't really an option - if only they have a chance to resist. Sure, some of them try, more or less successful.But I'm sure that a competent wizard or some sponsoring source could provide further assistance, be it with tattoos or something else.

This was debated a while ago.  Basically:
The Red Court Tattoos would have required lots of research to create.  Think Harry as he was at the beginning of Summer Knight, but going on for years - maybe decades.  It requires a wizard (or group of wizards) who really need to help a red court infected person.  Probably a loved one.
It's no cure, but it's a partial treatment for someone to you have to save.

Compare "my loved one was infected by the Red Court" with knowing a young member White Court, one that hasn't transformed yet.  Would someone have the year or decades required to find a treatment? Probably not, but luckily long before they came up with anything like the tattoos they would stumble over the cure.  There is no cure known to mortals for Red Court Infected but there is one for White Court Virgins - and manipulating them into loving someone for that first time would be much easier than creating a treatment.

It's like the difference between diabetes and appendicitis.  There is no cure for diabetes but we have developed a treatment that can keep diabetics alive and relatively healthy - but only relatively.  Diabetics sometimes go blind or lose legs or encounter other health problems while insulin keeps them alive.  Appendicitis isn't usually chronic - but if you don't have access to surgery it will kill you.  And while it is routine surgery now it was major, life threatening surgery for decades after the invention of insulin.

The tattoos = insulin = treat something that can't be cured.
Loving your first one = operation = a drastic treatment that cures the patient.

Richard
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Drulinda on August 19, 2011, 03:26:32 PM
I don't think they're necessary. 

Blampires have to be dead.  If you've been bitten, keep from dying and you won't turn. 
This is a case where to be sure we'd really need jims word on how much of Dracula was made up to increase sales in the dresdenverse. As already pointed out in the book blampires are said to be able to sorta infect others with drinking their blood. In theory this sounds like an important delibertatly included fact. on the other hand blampires are dried and emacicated, do they actually have any blood left to give?....or is that what the black fluid from one ear in BR was?
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 19, 2011, 04:44:59 PM
I would say that the tattoos of St Giles would be useless for non-Red Court Infected.

But it wouldn't be impossible to develop something similar for White Court Virgins.

The Black Court is probably right out, though. They don't seem to have a half-state.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: braincraft on August 19, 2011, 07:33:19 PM
Incidentally, while 'blampire' is a great word, I always call them 'blackulas'.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: devonapple on August 19, 2011, 09:39:41 PM
My thoughts:
Since the fiction as good as says that Bram Stoker's "Dracula" is the manual of how Black Court Vampires work, and is so effective that the Black Court is all but extinct, then I'm going to side with whatever is established in that source.

That said, creating mindless thralls is one thing - creating companions is another. I could maybe buy into a scheme which resulted in a Dhampir-type situation in which a Black Court victim being prepared to be a full BCV somehow remained perpetually on the edge of undeath. It would be so rare, however, that I wouldn't buy into an established mechanism for creation, or any solution akin to the Tattoos of St. Giles.

White Court Vampires, not having any infection vector, wouldn't have the same risk of spreading as Red Court, and they are generally so few in number that I wouldn't really buy into there being a secret group of anybody - even WCV's - dedicated to keeping WC Virgins in their adolescent state.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Tedronai on August 20, 2011, 06:00:10 AM
There is no cure known to mortals for Red Court Infected but there is one for White Court Virgins - and manipulating them into loving someone for that first time would be much easier than creating a treatment.

^Needs an 'other Houses may vary' caveat.

'Manipulating' someone into experiencing True Hope or True Courage might be a bit trickier even than manipulating two people (because, remember just manipulating the WCv isn't good enough) into simultaneously experiencing True Love.  Regular old love is, at least, something the general populace routinely puts substantial effort into obtaining.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on August 20, 2011, 12:53:19 PM
^Needs an 'other Houses may vary' caveat.

'Manipulating' someone into experiencing True Hope or True Courage might be a bit trickier even than manipulating two people (because, remember just manipulating the WCv isn't good enough) into simultaneously experiencing True Love.  Regular old love is, at least, something the general populace routinely puts substantial effort into obtaining.

True Hope: One day, I'll be normal.  Teenagers make it so easy.

True Courage is tricky.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Masurao on August 20, 2011, 01:03:21 PM
My thoughts:
Since the fiction as good as says that Bram Stoker's "Dracula" is the manual of how Black Court Vampires work, and is so effective that the Black Court is all but extinct, then I'm going to side with whatever is established in that source.

Except that blosferatu aren't strikingly handsome and suave creatures, as a rule... Or do we think he used some form of magic to hide his ugly, undead self? Then again, I only saw mister Oldman in the movie, didn't read the book, so I might be spouting quatsch...
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: SunlessNick on August 20, 2011, 04:18:56 PM
In the book, he wasn't all that attractive, although he definitely looked human.  He talked a good game, and had a certain amount of charisma, but relied on threats and mind control to get the girls.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 21, 2011, 05:11:30 AM
In the book, he wasn't all that attractive, although he definitely looked human.  He talked a good game, and had a certain amount of charisma, but relied on threats and mind control to get the girls.

Threats and mind control, booze and flattery... whatever works.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: vultur on August 21, 2011, 05:40:59 PM
Even beyond the "pre changed" White Court, considering Thomas's struggle with his Hunger, I don't see why something like Tattoos couldn't exist to help full-on White Court Vampires.  It's probably just that the setup of the Houses has meant that there weren't enough trying to fight their nature for any such thing to be developed.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Discipol on August 21, 2011, 07:03:06 PM
tattoo for white virgins should work exactly the same
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 21, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
Even beyond the "pre changed" White Court, considering Thomas's struggle with his Hunger, I don't see why something like Tattoos couldn't exist to help full-on White Court Vampires.  It's probably just that the setup of the Houses has meant that there weren't enough trying to fight their nature for any such thing to be developed.

They probably could but you'd bring the WC down on your head if you tried.  Well, their cat's paws du jour anyway.  Expect pain if anyone finds out a character is researching, attempting, or has done it.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Tedronai on August 21, 2011, 11:00:58 PM
They probably could but you'd bring the WC down on your head if you tried.  Well, their cat's paws du jour anyway.  Expect pain if anyone finds out a character is researching, attempting, or has done it.

I'm not so sure that an attempt at such a thing would necessarily 'bring the WC down on your head'.
Frankly, I'd think that a substantial portion of the Court would be interested in seeing you succeed, at least in part, in your attempt.
"Mystical tattoos that help you to control your Hunger?  It could certainly cut down on 'clean-up' expenses if certain members of the Court could be...assisted in such a way.  Here, have a few thousand dollars to support your research."
"Mystical tattoos that warn others when you're in danger of losing control?  Nonsense, you'd put the entire Court at risk with such a thing.  And that simply will not be allowed."
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 22, 2011, 12:42:50 AM
Other than Thomas and a few other freaks, White Court Vampires are in tune with their hunger.  They have made friends and embraced their demon side - why would they want something that weakens it?

Thomas fights his nature and thus starves himself, but that's just because he hasn't accepted his role of predator over the cattle... Um, make that 'the human race'.  Other White Court Vampires manage their hunger the same way Red Court Vampires and Black Court Vampires do - feeding discreetly when necessary and having fun in private.

On the other hand, a wizard who has researched the inner nature of the White Court Beast well enough to control it? To weaken or enslave it? Killing him is worth paying a weregild to  the White Council - that is it is, if the White Council can trace that junkie who surprised and killed the wizard (or whichever pawn they used) back to the White Court.

Richard
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Masurao on August 22, 2011, 01:57:41 AM
Clearly there are two halves in a struggle with WCV's who fight their Hunger, psychologically. With RCV's, I'd call it a physical need to feed and RCI have their bodies altered to desire blood, in order to complete the mystical transformation into a monster.

Perhaps the imagery we have of WCV's and their Hunger, as a personified/antropomorphic demonic entity 'living in their heads' is wrong, but it is what we have, plus: Thomas clearly fights his Hunger and gets mental consequences because of it. Following through on that logic, any magical tattoos would probably have mind magic woven into them. Beyond what that might mean for the one who creates them, consider what such magic would do to the vamp's mind: it might calm the Hunger, but at the cost of them becoming psychopathic sociopaths?

So, simply put: in my mind the difference between RCV and RCI, when compared to WCV is body vs mind (apart from the supernatural aspects, of course). Reds' needs are physical and the tattoos the Infected get, inhibit those physical reactions. Whites' needs are psychological, so logically, their tattoos would need to affect their minds. And we all know how good mind magic is for our sanity, now don't we kids? :p
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Tedronai on August 22, 2011, 03:51:17 AM
Other than Thomas and a few other freaks, White Court Vampires are in tune with their hunger.  They have made friends and embraced their demon side - why would they want something that weakens it?

Thomas fights his nature and thus starves himself, but that's just because he hasn't accepted his role of predator over the cattle... Um, make that 'the human race'.  Other White Court Vampires manage their hunger the same way Red Court Vampires and Black Court Vampires do - feeding discreetly when necessary and having fun in private.

On the other hand, a wizard who has researched the inner nature of the White Court Beast well enough to control it? To weaken or enslave it? Killing him is worth paying a weregild to  the White Council - that is it is, if the White Council can trace that junkie who surprised and killed the wizard (or whichever pawn they used) back to the White Court.

Richard

Lara (in Turn Coat) explicitly denounces the abandon with which some members of her Court feed (though I can't, for the moment, recall the name of the specific WCV that inspired her comment: the female that showed up at Zero).  I have no doubt that she would be accepting of a certain amount of restraint being enforced on their ilk.


Clearly there are two halves in a struggle with WCV's who fight their Hunger, psychologically. With RCV's, I'd call it a physical need to feed and RCI have their bodies altered to desire blood, in order to complete the mystical transformation into a monster.

Perhaps the imagery we have of WCV's and their Hunger, as a personified/antropomorphic demonic entity 'living in their heads' is wrong, but it is what we have, plus: Thomas clearly fights his Hunger and gets mental consequences because of it. Following through on that logic, any magical tattoos would probably have mind magic woven into them. Beyond what that might mean for the one who creates them, consider what such magic would do to the vamp's mind: it might calm the Hunger, but at the cost of them becoming psychopathic sociopaths?

So, simply put: in my mind the difference between RCV and RCI, when compared to WCV is body vs mind (apart from the supernatural aspects, of course). Reds' needs are physical and the tattoos the Infected get, inhibit those physical reactions. Whites' needs are psychological, so logically, their tattoos would need to affect their minds. And we all know how good mind magic is for our sanity, now don't we kids? :p

Not all mind magic is necessarily lawbreaking.  See Harry's comments regarding phantasms in Changes as he extricates Susan.
Some of it is only very close to lawbreaking.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 22, 2011, 08:54:42 AM
Lara (in Turn Coat) explicitly denounces the abandon with which some members of her Court feed (though I can't, for the moment, recall the name of the specific WCV that inspired her comment: the female that showed up at Zero).  I have no doubt that she would be accepting of a certain amount of restraint being enforced on their ilk.

My thinking was that the White Court, as a whole, do not see themselves as humans who have a hunger.  They see themselves as predators and us as food.  They would see any attempt to get them to eat less as an aggressive move on the part of the Council.  And like Richard said, they would go absolutely spare if a wizard were trying to study them intimately enough to to affect their hunger.  That's only a few steps from being able to neuter them and with their control fetish they could never let that happen.

If there were enough like Thomas who were willing to take on the White Court in the same way as was done to the Red, then you might have cover and subjects enough to get something similar made.  Maybe.  The whites aren't the reds though; control and power are like crack to them.  I just don't see it happening unless you're willing to radically alter your world enough to get a civil war within the White Court going.
Title: Re: Tattoos for other Vampires
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 22, 2011, 03:24:53 PM
Lara (in Turn Coat) explicitly denounces the abandon with which some members of her Court feed (though I can't, for the moment, recall the name of the specific WCV that inspired her comment: the female that showed up at Zero).  I have no doubt that she would be accepting of a certain amount of restraint being enforced on their ilk..

Enforced by whom? Aye, there's the rub.  There's no way that she would allow an outside force (White Council) to control her people.  After all, once the hunger is dialed back, whose to say the dial can't be pushed back even further?  To the point where the White Court Vampire starves to death - effectively wiping out the court.

There's a short story in Side Jobs where a member of another court is attempting to cripple the White Court.  If grabbing someone and giving him a tattoo was all it took to weaken I could see open season being declared on the White Court.

As for an internal faction with control - I can think of nothing that would unite the White Court faster than something like that being proposed.

Richard