ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LostInTime on September 22, 2021, 01:39:13 AM
-
At the end of BG, Harry goes with Molly to the Carpenter's house for Sunday dinner. When Michael drops the bomb that he knows she's the Winter Lady, he then expands on the preparation they've done to get ready for Molly to come over. They've broken out her Grandmother's silverware.
In Fool Moon, Bob is explaining about different kinds of werewolves. Loup Garou are cursed to be consumed by a wild spirit. But it's not a run of the mill curse. You've got to be really powerful. A major sorcerer, a demon lord or a faerie queen. And, the only way to stop them is with inherited silver.
Do we know a faerie queen with inherited silver? Why, yes. Yes we do.
-
Yeah, possibly a nice clue hiding in plain sight.
There have been theories that the loup garou might come back in some form (fitz from GS I think? As a bastard son of the first one). Part of the theory was trying to figure out how FM fits into the Circle’s plans and the idea of Fenrir since Odin is a big player in the story.
-
Nice Catch.
I'm rereading Fool Moon now. Murphy uses her Aunt's Earrings.
-
Or it is just a coincidence, when my son and his family come home, especially for a holiday, I break out the family silver as well that I inherited from my mother. But if a Loop got past the angelic guard, I can see Charity stabbing him with a butter knife... ;)
-
If one of the Carpenters is going to go mano-a-loupo with a Loup Garou, you know it's going to be Michael. Which would be horrible if that's how Michael goes to his reward.
The silverware was broken out because Molly, as a fae, cannot touch any alloy of iron. So, stainless steel flatware would burn her.
But, what if someone levelled a curse at Molly? As a faerie queen she's got the horsepower to make the curse work.
Bob could be wrong, but this seems like it was a seed laid back in FM and the building hint was dropped in BG. Or it's just a coincidence.
-
If one of the Carpenters is going to go mano-a-loupo with a Loup Garou, you know it's going to be Michael. Which would be horrible if that's how Michael goes to his reward.
The silverware was broken out because Molly, as a fae, cannot touch any alloy of iron. So, stainless steel flatware would burn her.
But, what if someone levelled a curse at Molly? As a faerie queen she's got the horsepower to make the curse work.
Bob could be wrong, but this seems like it was a seed laid back in FM and the building hint was dropped in BG. Or it's just a coincidence.
Yeah, I'd be shocked if it happened to Michael.. If I remember correctly it was a curse leveled specifically at the first born of the family MacFinn. Now that isn't to say that someone doesn't hate Michael enough to level that kind of curse, but I don't think it is all that easy to do. I never thought about stainless flatware and Molly, but that makes sense.. Wonder if she is okay if it is only silver plated flatware? I think it is because stainless could hurt Molly, and they wanted to make her feel extra welcome by busting out the good china etc.
-
No. Molly is the firstborn.
-
The specifics of the Loup Garou curse on MacFinn were (as I recall):
1. Placed by a Saint (which has meaning in the DF according to Jim; apparently it's something like the wizard equivalent for faith-based magic).
2. Affected the firstborn of the MacFinn line.
3. Ensured that the MacFinn lineage would never die out until the End of Days.
Tera West all but stated that she was pregnant, and I recall a Word of Jim entry that stated Tera would return by the end. I think he'd originally said that she would return for Ghost Story, but more recently said she would be back for the BAT instead.
Personally, I think in Ghost Story she might have been originally intended to run a different gang of street kids in opposition to Zero (and to protect them from the Fomor encroachment), but the book was a bit long to begin with. Probably better for her to have been cut.
Anyway, yeah, there's definitely going to be another Loup somewhere down the line. Really good catch that I completely missed!
-
The implication is that the inherited silver has to be used by the person who inherited it.
It is Molly Grandmothers silver, and she has two grandmothers (three counting Mother Winter). It could therefore be either Michael or Charity who would be called upon to issue the coupe de grace to the loupe garou. Michael is hors de combat, but Charity isn’t, is a formidable warrior and an armourer capable of turning the silverware into a variety of weapons.
My moneys on Charity in defence of a daughter.
Having been cursed by a saint, would a loupe garou be immune to the protection of the Carpenter Household? He may be powered by the same sort of power as the Angels. Perfect weapon for Nicodemus to aim at Michael and his family, it would rip right through the Fae, pass the threshold and angels no problem, and amuse him immensely using one tool of the White God to kill another.
-
Thing is, at this point given his history and service to the Almighty, I cannot see anyone who is a "saint" slapping that kind of curse on Michael. And even if one tried, I think the Almighty would veto it. No, in this case the silver came out because as mentioned, stainless steel would be painful if not fatal to their daughter. Also for Sunday dinner with honored guests one breaks out the family best china and silver, which these days is inherited for the most part. Gone are the days when newly married couples get sets of sterling and fancy china as wedding gifts.. Yeah, it happens, but mostly it is inherited, that is how I got mine anyway.
-
It's worth noting that Chauncy described the MacFinn curse as "said to have been laid by a saint", not "was laid by a saint". He can provide incorrect rumor implied as fact, the same way propaganda actors use "a lot of people are saying" to imply there must be some fire behind the smoke.
But cursing an entire bloodline of people to become ravening homicidal monsters with no choice but to kill seems pretty far from saintly. Aside from the trail of destruction, it's also tampering with the MacFinns' free will. A sufficient power could do it, but could they do it and still be on the right side of the Almighty's graces?
Could even be the Fallen were behind that and framed a saint for PR against the Christianization of Ireland, and Chauncy is repeating their lie as a "said to be".
-
It's worth noting that Chauncy described the MacFinn curse as "said to have been laid by a saint", not "was laid by a saint". He can provide incorrect rumor implied as fact, the same way propaganda actors use "a lot of people are saying" to imply there must be some fire behind the smoke.
But cursing an entire bloodline of people to become ravening homicidal monsters with no choice but to kill seems pretty far from saintly. Aside from the trail of destruction, it's also tampering with the MacFinns' free will. A sufficient power could do it, but could they do it and still be on the right side of the Almighty's graces?
Could even be the Fallen were behind that and framed a saint for PR against the Christianization of Ireland, and Chauncy is repeating their lie as a "said to be".
Yup, one of the worst kind of lies, because it is so hard to refute rumors, as long as there are ears to hear them, someone will believe them.
-
Thing is, at this point given his history and service to the Almighty, I cannot see anyone who is a "saint" slapping that kind of curse on Michael. And even if one tried, I think the Almighty would veto it. No, in this case the silver came out because as mentioned, stainless steel would be painful if not fatal to their daughter. Also for Sunday dinner with honored guests one breaks out the family best china and silver, which these days is inherited for the most part. Gone are the days when newly married couples get sets of sterling and fancy china as wedding gifts.. Yeah, it happens, but mostly it is inherited, that is how I got mine anyway.
Nope. Free will trumps celestial power. If a human saint chose to lay that sort of curse, there would be a price to pay. But nobody can stand in the way of free will.
And the curse could be laid by a saint, a demon lord or a fae queen.
Jim said Tera West would be back by or for the BAT. So, expect the inherited silver to come out then, too. Since MacFinn's curse is a bloodline curse. MacFinn could have made puppies with Tera West or left kids behind in Vietnam.
-
Nope. Free will trumps celestial power. If a human saint chose to lay that sort of curse, there would be a price to pay. But nobody can stand in the way of free will.
No, but while a saint, again a stretch, but if a saint chose to put a curse on Michael. He or she could do that of his or her own free will. However that doesn't prevent the Almighty from removing it or curing Michael of it. He'd be removing the curse, that in no way interferes with the saint's free will to put it on in the first place.
-
The specifics of the Loup Garou curse on MacFinn were (as I recall):
1. Placed by a Saint (which has meaning in the DF according to Jim; apparently it's something like the wizard equivalent for faith-based magic).
2. Affected the firstborn of the MacFinn line.
3. Ensured that the MacFinn lineage would never die out until the End of Days.
Tera West all but stated that she was pregnant,
The curse was that his lineage would never die out until the end of days.
The curse was broken, so the curse isn't still applicable.
If anything, it's probably a thread that will be brought back again when Harry is dropping the Winter Knight mantle. Jim likes his callbacks and shining different lights on the same situation to bring out different aspects.
-
What if the curse was designed by Saint Patrick so that there will be Loupe Garou available to play an important role in the Apocalyse? They are very nearly unstoppable, so we might see a Loupe Garou/Outsider Fight, or Loupe Garou/Odin fight. The Curse is part of the White God’s Plan and the Saint was the free will carrying it out.
There are a couple of options Tera West was pregnant at the end of Fool Moon, meaning there is a teenage werewolf roaming the country.
The other option, the English Prisoner at Demonreach is a cursed McFinn ancestor, who agreed to Demonreach to contain the curse, which it did for him BUT it didn’t stop the curse propagating down his bloodline.
If Harry had access to Demonreach during Full Moon, he would have had the perfect method for containing McFinn for 4 days per month.
Jim won’t talk about the Warden before Harry, and the Warden before that was Kemmler. What if the immediate predecessor or Kemmler put a McFinn in for the Full Moon but something happened to them preventing them from getting them out?
Can’t see Kemmler not being interested in Loupe Garou, and their near indestructability and (pre Evil Bob) Bob knew a lot about Loupe Garou. This would tie into A Fist Full of Warlocks, Kemmler trying to get get back to Demonreach and his little research project on ice there. The McFinn fortune arose from coal mines and railroads which is the right time period, so you have a fabulously wealthy McFinn approach Kemmler for a cure, Kemmler wants to study the curse before he can cure but can offer containment which he does. It is discovered by the White Council he is researching something in breach of laws 2 and 5, and is unable to get back to Demonreach and release the McFinn, and the curse had already passed onto McFinn Junior and becomes active. With the Apocalypse coming Harley McFinn can die without issue because there is still a McFinn to see in the Apocalypse, or Harry partially interrupted the curse as a Starborn killing MCFinn. The successor to Kemmler finds out, but doesn’t dare release a Loupe Garou, and resigns. Jim won’t tell us who was the Warden between Kemmler and Harry, so maybe something significant there.
If this is Ragnarok for Odin and his death is necessary for the Apocalypse, then the McFinn may be his intended Fenris. Harley is an old English for Hare, so the McFinn’s may have had an animal naming tradition for first names. The reason we haven’t been told the English Prisoners name is that it is Fenris McFinn, which would give an awful lot away. Jim just named his new cat Fenris so that name is definitely on his mind.
Always wondered how Full Moon fit into the larger narrative other than the Black Council and why Tera West would be back for the BAT, it would be for exposition on the McFinn family history.
This totally contradicts the theory I posted yesterday.
De Ingantaib Érenn speaks of the werewolves as living in Ossory, but this detail is omitted in the 13th century Norse work Konungs Skuggsjá (King's Mirror). It describes the werewolves as being humans who were cursed as a divine punishment for wickedness.[9] According to the account,
From Wikipedia Werewolves of Ossory
“It is told that when the holy Patricius (St Patrick) preached Christianity in that country, there was one clan which opposed him more stubbornly than any other people in the land; and these people strove to do insult in many ways both to God and to the holy man. And when he was preaching the faith to them as to others and came to confer with them where they held their assemblies, they adopted the plan of howling at him like wolves.[10]
St Patrick responded by praying for God to punish the clan, resulting in them suffering "a fitting and severe though very marvelous punishment, for it is told that all the members of that clan are changed into wolves for a period and roam through the woods feeding upon the same food as wolves; but they are worse than wolves, for in all their wiles they have the wit of men, though they are as eager to devour men as to destroy other creatures." The werewolves were not permanently transformed, as they either took the form of a wolf every seventh winter or were transformed into a wolf for a seven-year period, following which they never transformed again.[11]”
St Patrick was 5th Century AD Christianity (pre Catholic Church) was not prevalent and the McFinn Clan would have hewn to the Celtic Deities such as Ethnui, so that links in nicely, the McFinn clan supported and gave belief to the one major hold out to the White God’s proscription of OP beings existing in the real world. The curse was to deny support and belief to Ethnui
-
“It is told that when the holy Patricius (St Patrick) preached Christianity in that country, there was one clan which opposed him more stubbornly than any other people in the land; and these people strove to do insult in many ways both to God and to the holy man. And when he was preaching the faith to them as to others and came to confer with them where they held their assemblies, they adopted the plan of howling at him like wolves.[10]
St Patrick responded by praying for God to punish the clan, resulting in them suffering "a fitting and severe though very marvelous punishment, for it is told that all the members of that clan are changed into wolves for a period and roam through the woods feeding upon the same food as wolves; but they are worse than wolves, for in all their wiles they have the wit of men, though they are as eager to devour men as to destroy other creatures." The werewolves were not permanently transformed, as they either took the form of a wolf every seventh winter or were transformed into a wolf for a seven-year period, following which they never transformed again.[11]”
St Patrick was 5th Century AD Christianity (pre Catholic Church) was not prevalent and the McFinn Clan would have hewn to the Celtic Deities such as Ethnui, so that links in nicely, the McFinn clan supported and gave belief to the one major hold out to the White God’s proscription of OP beings existing in the real world. The curse was to deny support and belief to Eth
That fits perfectly, in other words while a saint had a lot to do with the McFinn Clan curse, it wasn't a personal thing. It also suggests that even if he was the last of his line, there are other clans out there that also possibly held out and suffer from the same curse. So a loop may be in Harry's future, but it won't be a McFinn. Then again if he had gotten Terra West pregnant, they might be a whole litter of them, or would it be just the first pup that was born of that litter?
-
It really only comes into focus with Peace Talks, even then everyone was thinking Greek Titan from the description until that book dropped. We hadn’t gone much into specifically Irish mythology before then, most likely purposefully.
It should be noted that despite no Denarian’s (other than Namshiel) in the field, Sanya was diverted unexpectedly, staying over in Chicago allowing both current Knights to be deployed. They were there to enforce the White God’s proscription (and save Harry from himself, so he could defeat the Titan), a second instance of the White God intervening through its agents free will take on Ethnui.
I wonder if St Patrick was a Wizard granted Soul Fire? Like Harry. I suspect the first victims of the Loupe Garou or the Werewolf of Ossory were many, many members of the McFinn clan.
Also from Wikipedia
“The surname Finn has several origins. In some cases it is derived from the Irish Ó Finn, meaning "descendant of Fionn"; the byname means "white" or "fair-haired". In other cases it is derived from the Old Norse Finnr, a personal name sometimes derived from a byname, or else from compound names beginning with this word element. In other cases Finn is a German surname derived from an ethnic name referring to people from Finland.”
From Nordic Names
Old Norse finnr = 'Sámi', 'Laplander', 'Finn' (original meaning: 'wanderer')
Wanderer is a nickname of Odin, a son of Odin would in Irish be McFinn, son of the Wanderer, which would describe Loki, taking us back to Fenris, Odin’s grandson. Clan McFinn may have railed against St Patrick because they believed they were descendants of a god, Loki, is a descendant of giants, and spouse to giants and the giants were allied with Ethnui in Peace Talks. Was Loki an early supporter of Ethnui? He is also supposed to be the father of Jorgamund the great Serpent. St Patrick is best known for banishing the serpents from Ireland. Is Ragnarok the deal Odin entered into to save loki from the White God? This is the problem with academia, one can find connections everywhere.
-
Assuming Macfinn had no children prior to his tryst with Tara West, her child would carry the curse. But that child would only be half human.
And this is why I don't go to church. Dooming people for the sins of their fathers doesn't strike me as something a loving God would allow. And considering the body count in Fool Moon, that would mean millions might die over time since it was meant to go on forever, all because the Saint had a burr under his saddle. Early Black Council selling the big lie IMO.
-
If the White God was behind it then there was a purpose, it is up to the cursed in an exercise of Free Will to deal with it and its consequences. Which Harley McFinn attempted, but the FBI put the kibosh on. The first people killed would have been of Clan McFinn, the punishment of subsequent generations would have been to dissuade the further empowering of Ethnui/elder beliefs being taught within that clan. Innocents undoubtedly died, but they got the White God’s Heaven or the other place.
The Apocalypse envisaged may have been the one around the 644 AD Star born so it may have been that the curse was envisaged to burn itself out in the next 120 or so years, not ten times that long. If it was averted then it is explainable to some degree. Remember that Apocalypse actually means a revelation or an enlightenment of knowledge. The events of Battle Ground were a small ‘a’ Apocalypse, leading to the revelation in Chicago of the supernatural. This time period would have seen the ending of the Roman Gods hegemony over the defending of the gates and the creation of the Fae Courts to take their place. It would also have seen the Fall of the Western Roman Empire but the rise of Christianity.
On that basis you couldn’t have a proper Apocalypse unless the whole of humanity were able to experience it, almost simultaneously which you only could today. Otherwise news of Ethnui using Balors in Eye in 7th century Ireland wouldn’t even have reached England, before reality broke and the gates were sundered and the Outsiders won. No revelation.The Outsiders winning isn’t the Apocalypse- it’s just the end, no lesson to learn.
Under this Interpretation, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Instagram.
-
The Irish Saints should have stuck with getting rid of the snakes, they evidently knew how to do that. Since Macfinn was still breathing in 2000 then obviously there was a screw up at the office and TWG needs to clean house. If Tara West has a kid who goes all loopy she's gonna be pissed.
-
Assuming Macfinn had no children prior to his tryst with Tara West, her child would carry the curse. But that child would only be half human.
And this is why I don't go to church. Dooming people for the sins of their fathers doesn't strike me as something a loving God would allow. And considering the body count in Fool Moon, that would mean millions might die over time since it was meant to go on forever, all because the Saint had a burr under his saddle. Early Black Council selling the big lie IMO.
Yeah well, it goes back further, there is the "original sin".
-
Assuming Macfinn had no children prior to his tryst with Tara West, her child would carry the curse. But that child would only be half human.
And this is why I don't go to church. Dooming people for the sins of their fathers doesn't strike me as something a loving God would allow. And considering the body count in Fool Moon, that would mean millions might die over time since it was meant to go on forever, all because the Saint had a burr under his saddle. Early Black Council selling the big lie IMO.
Recall "said to be laid" ... not "was laid".... deniability there...
..so where is the curse now? If MacFinn was killed... was it in abeyance until the child is born? A werepuppy? or does someone else act as regent of sorts,. he is the loupe until the child is old enough? A relative, maybe a brother, or a cadet line?
And I think a loup garou would qualify as supernatural - as in the guardian angels get off the roof and send it on its way. I don't think Bob's knowledge would cover angels, or a Sword. Plus - did it just say kill? Angel comes down.... "Well, I can't kill you... but..." ...suddenly the Loup Garou is looking at a sign "Welcome to Moose Jaw"
-
My argument is if there is a McFinn in Demonreach the curse would potentially attach there.
Tera West didn’t have a soul, any hypothetical child may be a changeling, able to choose to be a wolf or human. Only if they choose the latter would the curse bite. Whether to be a wolf who can change into a man or a man who can change into a Wolf. Or they may just be a wolf, changing 4 nights per month in a Loupe Garou, or just a wolf with no soul for the curse to bite on.
It is unusual for Bob to have information on clerical power and magic, unless one of his former owners had been seeking to research the point, or has knowledge on it shared with Bob, the only prior owners of record are Etienne the Enchanter, Kemmler and Justin DuMorne. Bob came into Kemmlers possession after he was warden of Demonreach.
-
the only prior owners of record are Etienne the Enchanter, Kemmler and Justin DuMorne. Bob came into Kemmlers possession after he was warden of Demonreach.
Interesting point - could Kemmler have taken it from a prisoner? Could one of Bob's former owners be in jail there?
-
Interesting point - could Kemmler have taken it from a prisoner? Could one of Bob's former owners be in jail there?
Or Kemmler merely took him after he killed a rival wizard.. I can see though in the middle of the binding process before imprisonment discovering Bob and taking him as a prize. Wonder if Bob has always lived in that skull?
-
Interesting point - could Kemmler have taken it from a prisoner? Could one of Bob's former owners be in jail there?
Kemmler may have been told where a prisoner had buried Bob in the past, Bob has a fear of being buried, sometimes for years at a time when Harry hid him before the Wardens nabbed him.
-
Kemmler may have been told where a prisoner had buried Bob in the past, Bob has a fear of being buried, sometimes for years at a time when Harry hid him before the Wardens nabbed him.
I wonder if the skull Bob lives in originally was the guy he used to aid.. Then along came Kemmler..
-
Nah Etienne the Enchanter probably just picked a skull at random to create a sanctum, although Harry went down the more difficult route of making an anatomically correct skull.
Bonea’s home is ethically sorced.
-
I wonder if the skull Bob lives in originally was the guy he used to aid.. Then along came Kemmler..
There's a WoJ that skulls were plentiful back when Etienne was kicking around.
-
There's a WoJ that skulls were plentiful back when Etienne was kicking around.
Whereas today there is a distinct shortage.
-
Whereas today there is a distinct shortage.
Well no, but. . .
-
Back then it was eccentric. Today it is truly out there and illegal in most places to have an authentic human skull without a permit.
-
Back then it was eccentric. Today it is truly out there and illegal in most places to have an authentic human skull without a permit.
Well, you can buy one from the Bone Room, or you used to be able to. The bones come from, or used to, until China put a stop to it from China. Grave yards are dug up to make room for buildings and the old bones were sold. The bones are not cheap though, I know about this because I work a cadaver dog and have bought their search and rescue package, bits and pieces mostly. If you want to buy a skull, it is very expensive.
-
You sound like you have done the research.
-
You sound like you have done the research.
Yup.
-
Okay..........
-
Okay..........
You can check it out, The Bone Room.com I believe the address is. It's been a while since I bought anything from them.
-
You can check it out, The Bone Room.com I believe the address is. It's been a while since I bought anything from them.
Thank goodness your a customer, rather than a supplier.